4e - Party vs Wormtongue

[Guinea Anubis]

So my PCs will soon be coming to see an Elven king. They need to his help to reach there goal, BUT the BEG of the campain has corrupted the kings tusted adviser in to a Wormtongue (LotR) like person.

I was wondering how would you have have a non-combat enounter. I was thinking that the players will have to try and use there skills vs Wormtongue's skill to inflince the king.

[Tiki Snakes]

I'm inclined to be more evil in such a situation, and simply let the resulting encounter balance on their ideas and what they actually say.

If they insist on rolling, sure, it could be quantified as a skill challenge type set-up, but this is an important moment, the roleplaying should be more important, and crucially, likely will make them squirm more. :smallcool:

[Guinea Anubis]

What I was thinking I should do is make them roleplay it out and based on how good they do give them a plus or negitaves to there rolls.

Most of the time I would just let them RP it but since there going up against this Wormtongue I thought opposing rolls may be a little better.

[incubus5075]

I vote for RP as well. These skill challenges have taken the role playing out of the game a bit I feel.

[Tiki Snakes]

I vote for RP as well. These skill challenges have taken the role playing out of the game a bit I feel.

Well, the thing in this particular case is that it's very much a focus moment.
If it was a side issue, then a skill challenge backed up by some decent roleplaying would be the go-to solution, perhaps.

But if you're being cruel, you take away the crutch of 'Have a go at talking the king into it, but you get to roll too, so if you say something stupid you've still got a chance' and put the entire fate of a nation purely in the words of the players.

I would say if you're looking at involving rolls, make the bonuses potentially huge, and likewise the penalties, so that the onus is still on them really hammering their point home.

As I said though, I'm feeling evily inclined right now. Normally I'd probably say Skill challenge with the focus on roleplaying it (potentially for bonuses) is a perfectly good way to do this.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm inclined to be more evil in such a situation, and simply let the resulting encounter balance on their ideas and what they actually say.

This, very much. Rolls are too random to replace decent social activity.

[Mando Knight]

If you do go with rolls, remember that the Wormtongue worked in LotR because he had sort of a mental domination effect going on. His Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy modifiers should be high enough that without some kind of intervention, the players won't win with words alone.

[Yakk]

Mix skill challenge and roleplaying.

Remember, you shouldn't have a skill challenge unless you have something interesting and fun happening on both success and failure. (ie, if failure = end of adventure, don't skill challenge)

So what you could do is a skill challenge ... where you have to break the king free of wormtongue. If you cannot roleplay successfully, wormtongue wins, and the players are banished.

If you roleplay successfully, the skill checks determine how much they manage to tear the king away from the corrupt influence of wormtongue. If you get Y failures before you get X successes, the king denounces wormtongue, but dies in the process -- if you get the successes before the failures, the king denounces wormtongue and lives.

The success/failure count then becomes a matter of timing and pacing the session.

If they manage to roleplay, they are rewarded with a combat encounter, where the allies of wormtongue attack them and the guards in the king's chambers.

[Armoury99]

Every group has their own balance of roll and role when it comes to skill challenges. I deal with such situations like this:

Work out the basic level and difficulty of the skill challenge (basically "what PCs need to roll, how many successes the PCs need, and what XP you'll give them if they "win"). You don't have to limit yourself to the exactly what the rulebooks or errata says, as the skill challenge rules are just a guide here.

Roleplay the conversation out. DONT tell your PCs they're in a skill challenge (you can smile knowingly if someone works it out though), and DEFINITELY don't tell them the DC, successes required etc.

Make sure that you DO hint at their successes and failures in the conversations twists and turns, and how things shift as the party "win" or "lose". Make sure you know roughly what "win", "lose", and "draw" will mean, and feel free to grade them (so there could be a difference between barely won and total victory)

Practice a few of Wormtongue's counter-arguments before hand so he sounds suitably expert.

If people start making Sense Motive checks against Wormtongue ROLL THEM IN SECRET. Either make a few bluff rolls for Wormstongue in advance or set a difficulty based on his skill level so they never know if their checks are being opposed.

Use the VIRTUAL ROLL (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/74/rolling-for-roleplaying-the-virtual-roll/), giving players the option to rely on their chutzpah OR the dice as they prefer.

See who wins.

[AtwasAwamps]

They should take care of him in the same way I suggested since the first time I read the book:

SHOOT. HIM. IN. THE. FACE.

God I hate you Wormtongue.

[Kurald Galain]

They should take care of him in the same way I suggested since the first time I read the book:

SHOOT. HIM. IN. THE. FACE.

I believe Legolas in DM of the Rings did exactly that :smallbiggrin:

(gollum, too!)

[Hatu]

They should take care of him in the same way I suggested since the first time I read the book:

SHOOT. HIM. IN. THE. FACE.

God I hate you Wormtongue.

That seems unlikely to earn the King's trust, skill challenge or no.

-H

[Yakk]

PCs attack Wormtongue. Wormtongue dies.

The guards of the king (plus Wormtongues ambushing allies) attack the party, which is possibly partially disarmed.

PCs either win (and the King remains hostile, or is dead), or lose (and the PCs are captured and put on trial, possibly with a chance to escape). If the King lives, the King is now an opponent of the PCs, and the Kingdom falls under the shadow. If the King dies, the heir of the King is now a sworn enemy of the PCs.

This generates plot, but probably doesn't advance the PCs goals. :-) Having this ready (and a fun plot attached) is a good idea.

[Mordar]

Do the players or characters know he's Wormtongue and not Ernest-Advisor-With-An-Opinion-Different-Than-Theirs? That's a key element of the discussion, I think.

See, the "shoot-him-in-the-face" impulse is so present in LotR (especially the films) because...well, he *looks* and *acts* like a Wormtongue, as opposed to a clever corrupt vizier, and is so blatantly, foolishly in the pocket of someone other than the king.

If they don't know, don't give them reason to know. The advisor should always seem reasonable, politic and rational. Come up with good foils to the party's platform/request. Find legitimate counter-points. Present his position as best you can, and make it compelling.

If they come up with a *great* presentation, reward it with success, despite the advisor's best efforts. It's likely this will create the most memorable moment...and may provide them an enemy to deal with later too!

If they can't, you can default to rolling, or better yet...provide them a way or opportunity to unmask the advisor and create a Theoden moment (you know, the king kicking his butt down the steps). It solves the problem if the PCs unmask him through stuff they are good at instead of being forced to "fight" him on his chosen ground and with his preferred weapons, and may well prove more satisfying than a simple roll

Good luck!

- M

[hamishspence]

Draconomicon had a skill challenge based on getting past the mildly hostile advisor to see the king- but I'm guessing this won't work quite the same way.

[TheEmerged]

The flowchart goes something like this.

1> Is this a pass/fail scenario?

Yes> Then don't use a skill challenge.

No> Did (m)any of your players invest heavily in non-combat skills?

No then No> Then don't use a skill challenge.

No then Yes> Then you *may* want to use a skill challenge heavily influenced by their roleplay.