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Trodon
2009-12-08, 07:51 PM
Hello Giant in the Playground users! I am looking for a good way to go about playing a summoner, I would assume being a conjurer and having the Augment Summoning is a decent start. This is for a game probably going to start about levels 1-3, thanks.

Glimbur
2009-12-08, 08:12 PM
Aim for Malconvoker, a PrC from from Complete Scoundrel. You lose a caster level, but it's pretty sweet.

Temotei
2009-12-08, 08:14 PM
Make sure you have a bunch of buffs prepared/learned too.

Arakune
2009-12-08, 08:17 PM
Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 10/Malkonvolker 5/Full Casting PrC 2

Get this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#rapidSummoning) variant.

Check the guide for malkonvolkers, they really get some neat stuff.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 08:18 PM
Aim for Malconvoker, a PrC from from Complete Scoundrel. You lose a caster level, but it's pretty sweet.

Wow I forgot about that class, thanks i'll take that if we get that high.

Livor
2009-12-08, 08:19 PM
Here are some of the various guides on the subject:
Summonable Monster List (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872206/Legal_35_Summonable_Monster_List?num=10&pg=1)
Summoner's Guide (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864066/Summoning_Handbook)
Malconvoker Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872758/Mastering_the_Malconvoker)
Conjurer's Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19863086/The_Conjurers_Handbook)

It might be a tad overwhelming, but this is where the majority of the information is. The Malconvoker Handbook has some good information, regardless of if you are taking the prestige class. Everything else is what it ways on the tin.

Nich_Critic
2009-12-08, 08:20 PM
Incidentally, I'm also making a summoner (conj focused wizard base). What are some good buffs to prepare? At low levels (I'm starting at 4), most of my buffs will outlast my monsters, so buffing them instead of my allies doesn't seem to make sense.

I was thinking instead of picking control spells that impair the enemy, but not my monsters as much. Like fog spells I can cast around my monstrous spiders who have tremorsense.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-08, 08:22 PM
And prepare for a LOT of book keeping, also if you are going specialist wizard look at the ACF abrupt jaunt in the PHII, it lets you telepor 10 ft as an imediate action you INT mod/day

Trodon
2009-12-08, 08:23 PM
Wow, Thanks everyone for the replies I'll look over all of the links that you provided, thanks again.

Gralamin
2009-12-08, 08:28 PM
Alternative: Go Shaper Psion. Take Astral Construct. Take Constructer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20020727a) and anything from Complete Psi for your constructs. Refluff into being whatever sort of thing you want.

Between everything said here, we've covered most of the bases now.

Gnorman
2009-12-08, 08:28 PM
Man, they always forget one.

Here it is: Practical Demonkeeping. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5573.0) If you go Malconvoker, it's a veritable demonomicon for you. Also there is a section on buffs, items, and feats.

If you take nothing else from the link, remember this: the Voor rules.


And prepare for a LOT of book keeping, also if you are going specialist wizard look at the ACF abrupt jaunt in the PHII, it lets you telepor 10 ft as an imediate action you INT mod/day

Any summoner worth his salt will be trading in his familiar for Rapid Summoning, making Abrupt Jaunt impossible (or at least very difficult) to obtain.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-08, 08:32 PM
snip
Any summoner worth his salt will be trading in his familiar for Rapid Summoning, making Abrupt Jaunt impossible (or at least very difficult) to obtain.

... I forgot that you trade your familiar for rapid summoning....as for qualifying can you take the Obtain familiar feat and then trade for Abrupt jaunt? essentially is taking Abrup jaunt as a feat and IMO it is a good option

Gnorman
2009-12-08, 08:36 PM
... I forgot that you trade your familiar for rapid summoning....as for qualifying can you take the Obtain familiar feat and then trade for Abrupt jaunt? essentially is taking Abrup jaunt as a feat and IMO it is a good option

Obtain Familiar is the "(or at least very difficult)" part - most DMs won't (and shouldn't) let you trade in a feat for an ACF - it's questionably legal, highly manipulative, and very, very cheesy.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-08, 08:40 PM
hmmm you are right, I was just stormbraining some ideas....

Gnorman
2009-12-08, 08:56 PM
http://www.clamlynch.com/blog/brainstorm.jpg

aje8
2009-12-08, 08:57 PM
Take Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning Wizard ACFs. Link was already given.

Then play: Focused Conjurer 3/Master Spec 2/Malconvoker 10/Master Specalist +5

Treantmonk's guide on the subject is great. As are the summon lists (both already linked to)

Gnorman
2009-12-08, 09:02 PM
Take Rapid Summoning and Enhanced Summoning Wizard ACFs. Link was already given.

Then play: Focused Conjurer 3/Master Spec 2/Malconvoker 10/Master Specalist +5

Treantmonk's guide on the subject is great. As are the summon lists (both already linked to)

Nitpicking a little, but:

Focused Conjurer 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 9 / Whatever the Hell You Want 6.

I recommend taking Master Specialist to 4 for the +19/20 temp. HP on your summons and then investing in either Archmage, Mindbender, Thaumaturgist, or Paragnostic Apostle.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 09:05 PM
Wow Thanks everyone I think I will go Focused Conjurer 3/Master Spec 10/Malconvoker 5/Something else 2 maybe more Malconvoker

aje8
2009-12-08, 09:53 PM
Wow Thanks everyone I think I will go Focused Conjurer 3/Master Spec 10/Malconvoker 5/Something else 2 maybe more Malconvoker

Meh.... I'd enter Malconvoker sooner. You REALLY want to get the Demonic Legion class feaure (or whatever it's called) ASAP. It basically doubles your power as a Summoner.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 10:02 PM
Meh.... I'd enter Malconvoker sooner. You REALLY want to get the Demonic Legion class feaure (or whatever it's called) ASAP. It basically doubles your power as a Summoner.

That's true, In no peticuler order that's what I'm doing, I think.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 10:23 PM
Alright change of plan, it is now an ECL6 Gestalt game, I am a Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 1, what should my other side be? And please hurry if it's possible.

Edit: I am thinking a Sorcerer to get Infernal Heritage so I get that +2 on Caster Level while summoning evil outsiders. But I don't know.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-08, 10:28 PM
Incidentally, I'm also making a summoner (conj focused wizard base). What are some good buffs to prepare? At low levels (I'm starting at 4), most of my buffs will outlast my monsters, so buffing them instead of my allies doesn't seem to make sense.

I was thinking instead of picking control spells that impair the enemy, but not my monsters as much. Like fog spells I can cast around my monstrous spiders who have tremorsense.

Only buff spell that comes to mind readily is haste, since it hits a five dudes when you get it. If there is a druid in the party, mass snake's swiftness is great with summons, but becomes less so with haste.

Outside of that, you'll probably be better off using things like web and grease to make the hit easier for everyone on your side.

As for a build, I'd go Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Master Specialist +8/Fullcasting Prestige Class +2. Options for the remaining prestige class are Archmage for more, higher level summons, Paragnostic Apostle for lore and giving summons fast healing, or just more Malconvoker.

Feats you may consider:

First level:Able Learner to help slightly with getting bluff, more of a filler feat, but, whatever. Collegiate Wizard for all the spells you could ever want through level ups. Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summons are also nice, due to the wizard variants out there and just straight up being human.

Cloudy Conjuration is a must have. The sooner you can get a hold of it, the better. If flaws are allowed, you can get all of these first level, otherwise, I'd drop Able Learner and probably Collegiate Wizard (sadly).

You nab Skill Focus: Spellcrat and Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) for free from Master Specialist, which ist nice, but not great. If you're starting at a lower level than ninth, I would use your 6th level feat slot to grab Skill Focus: Bluff. Not because it's a great feat, god no, but, rather, because at 8th level, you get it normally. Have it already? Choose a feat you qualify for instead. In this case, that means qualifying for the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat as soon as you qualify for it.

Practiced Spellcaster may also help, especially if you can grab the Spellgifted: Conjuation trait to help prevent the drawback there. Obtain Familiar and Improved Initiative are both fine choices to help guarantee you go first. If the DM agrees, definitely use the Familiar to get Abrupt Jaunt variant.

Extend Spell is always nice to have, too. You may also consider Sculpt Spell for the early levels in addition to or instead of Cloudy Conjuration, but that would also require taking Metamagic School Focus to negate the +1 slot adjustment.


Admittedly, most of this advice is in the guides, but, I figured I may as well drop it down here for reference.

EDIT: Boop, did not see the change to gestalt E6 rules.

Okay, other side to consider: Psion or Archivist, just to help with staying power in an E6 environment and more focus on intelligence. Factotum is also a nice choice and lets you throw that Int mod onto other things a few times per encounter. You may also consider Warblade to help boost both your reflex and fortitude saves, as well as your hit dice.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 10:32 PM
It's not E6, It's ECL:6, like we are level 6 it's not the cap.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-08, 10:40 PM
It's not E6, It's ECL:6, like we are level 6 it's not the cap.

Oh! Okay, then, I would stick with the advice I threw done. You may want to take a template or two, assuming it affects only one side of gestalt. Half-nymph is good for the boosts to mental stats, meaning you can save the points you would have otherwise thrown into Charisma elsewhere since the template has you covered. Half-Fey is similar, but hits Constitution, so I advise against it. Phrenic is nice and gives a few PLAs based on HD. All of them are LA+2.

I would still stick with one of the classes I mentioned before hand. Archivist and Psion would both give you a silly amount of abilities to use per day, while Warblade would net you d12 HD, a good Fort save, Int to reflex, a good BAB, and maneuvers.

With Archivist, focus on getting long term, divine buffs to help mitigate your weaknesses. With Psion, you would probably want to use Quicken Power and Psionic Meditation to double your payload each round, using your swift action on a power, move to regain focus, and standard to summon.

Warblade would offer you White Raven, which would help your summons charge. It also has White Raven Tactics, allowing you or someone else to take another turn right after yours. As for maneuvers, I would focus on boosts and counters (like the concentration in place of saves ones), mostly, so as to not detract from your summoning prowess. Iron Heart Surge would also help in the event you meet up with an AMF.

The Glyphstone
2009-12-08, 10:49 PM
Factotum, Factotum, Factotum. You're already Int-focused, and in 2 levels, you get the awesometastic Standard Action Spam.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 10:56 PM
What book is Factotum in?

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-08, 11:04 PM
What book is Factotum in?

Dungeonscape.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 11:06 PM
Oh, I don't have that book.

Gnorman
2009-12-08, 11:16 PM
Oh, I don't have that book.

Then get it, because you really, really, really want the other side to be Factotum. Especially once you reach level 8.

As a summoner, you're already breaking the action economy. Might as well shatter it.

Trodon
2009-12-08, 11:31 PM
Then get it, because you really, really, really want the other side to be Factotum. Especially once you reach level 8.

As a summoner, you're already breaking the action economy. Might as well shatter it.

Alright I'll see if I get get it from one of my friends, or something.

Milskidasith
2009-12-08, 11:43 PM
To anybody who says that you shouldn't take Master Specialist to 10, you get a few daily free quickened summons with Master Specialist 10, IIRC. There aren't too many classes that get you something as good for a summoner (barring using MM abuse to quicken anyway, with Incantatrix.)

Trodon
2009-12-08, 11:47 PM
Alright I want to finish this character very soon, I need a simple class to put my other side in, what should it be?

Gnorman
2009-12-09, 12:03 AM
Alright I want to finish this character very soon, I need a simple class to put my other side in, what should it be?

If Factotum doesn't work out for you, focus on something that beefs up your defenses. Warblade, as suggested, is an excellent choice. Barbarian or Ranger, even, if you're limited to core. Something with a higher HD and good fort/reflex saves. Maybe even some skill points.

Factotum is still your best choice, but it's not the only choice.

Trodon
2009-12-09, 12:05 AM
I think i'll go with Barbarian, I want something that doesn't take a lot of book keeping.

Gnorman
2009-12-09, 12:08 AM
I think i'll go with Barbarian, I want something that doesn't take a lot of book keeping.

Just don't rage very often (or, you know, ever) and you'll be fine.

There's a variant in Unearthed Arcana (also found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarian)) that lets you trade Rage for Ranger abilities - it's a good trade for you, since raging will take away your spellcasting. Essentially, you're trading an animal companion, middling spells, and a good reflex save for higher HP. I'd almost rather go with the ranger, but that extra ~2 HP per level might be worth it.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-09, 12:09 AM
I think i'll go with Barbarian, I want something that doesn't take a lot of book keeping.

If you have Tome of Battle, I would heavily advise for going Warblade, considering you can't rage and cast spells at together. The maneuvers are fairly simple to get the hang, and there are several Tome of Battle for Dummies (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871270/Tome_of_Battle_for_Dummies) threads out there to help you out.

As I mentioned earlier, I recommend going with a heavy focus on White Raven for helping summons charge, Diamond Mind for saves, and Iron Heart for the Surge.

Agent_0042
2009-12-09, 12:10 AM
Or, y'know, go Rage Mage.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-09, 12:14 AM
Or, y'know, go Rage Mage.

Default gestalt rules: 1) Can't use combo class, and 2) can't dual prestige at the same time.

Also, Malconvoker/Master Specialist > Rage Mage.

Trodon
2009-12-09, 12:25 AM
I would take Warblade but I already have quite a bit of book keeping to do as it is.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-09, 12:33 AM
Default gestalt rules: 1) Can't use combo class,

Not a rule, and what constitutes a "combo class" in the case of nonmagic/magic things is ambiguous.

Person_Man
2009-12-09, 11:00 AM
Pathfinder has a pretty interesting Summoner class that you can download for free from the Paizo site. There have been a couple threads on it.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:27 AM
Do you have Dragon Compendium? Savant is a lot like Factotum.

How about psionics? The only bookkeeping you'd have to do there is erasing your PP every day.

Beguiler is another great choice, as they are also INT-based (and spontaneous, which means less bookkeeping again.)

paddyfool
2009-12-09, 11:34 AM
You could go Knight, and ride around on an extended summons of some sort all day...

Fastmover
2009-12-09, 11:40 AM
I'm also making a Summoner. She is an evil (Haven't decided on full alignment yet) Drow worshiping Hextor (I have a backstory) Level 6 (Actually level 8, LA 2) Stats not rolled yet.

How can I make her a very good summoner?

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:42 AM
Also OP, Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) goes great with Malconvoker.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-09, 12:49 PM
I'm also making a Summoner. She is an evil (Haven't decided on full alignment yet) Drow worshiping Hextor (I have a backstory) Level 6 (Actually level 8, LA 2) Stats not rolled yet.

How can I make her a very good summoner?Go Lesser Drow rather than full to avoid the LA.

Also, see if your DM will allow you to make an Evil Malconvoker that only summons Good creatures. Because there is little as awesome as sending Angels to die against the forces of good.

Arakune
2009-12-09, 12:52 PM
Also OP, Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) goes great with Malconvoker.

Well, if you don't go the planar bondage route, sure. But either drop at level 3 (free extend to all summons) or 4 (one extra contingency is always nice). I prefer to go Archmage instead.

Ormagoden
2009-12-09, 01:12 PM
Dungeonscapeawesome.

Here I fixed it.

Trodon
2009-12-09, 01:14 PM
I'm also making a Summoner. She is an evil (Haven't decided on full alignment yet) Drow worshiping Hextor (I have a backstory) Level 6 (Actually level 8, LA 2) Stats not rolled yet.

How can I make her a very good summoner?

Well, pretty much follow what everyone is saying and you should be good.

Fastmover
2009-12-09, 01:38 PM
Go Lesser Drow rather than full to avoid the LA.

Also, see if your DM will allow you to make an Evil Malconvoker that only summons Good creatures. Because there is little as awesome as sending Angels to die against the forces of good.

An Evil Malconvoker would be awsome for her. I'll see if it is possible.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-09, 02:01 PM
Here I fixed it.

Don't you mean Awesomescape instead?


As for capping off Malconvoker, I prefer two levels of Archmage myself, either for caster level boosts or getting more 9th level spells. Paragnostic Apostle is a close second, though, due to the similarities with Archmage on potential.

Gnorman
2009-12-09, 07:00 PM
Don't you mean Awesomescape instead?


As for capping off Malconvoker, I prefer two levels of Archmage myself, either for caster level boosts or getting more 9th level spells. Paragnostic Apostle is a close second, though, due to the similarities with Archmage on potential.

QFT.

I love the potential of binding, and Touch spells (you know, curses, geases, etc.) are great for weakening the trapped fiend's Charisma check. But you can't disturb the circle! That's what Arcane Reach is for.

My ideal build is Focused Conjurer 3 / Master Specialist 2 / Malconvoker 9 / MS +2 / Archmage 1 / Paragnostic Apostle 3. Call of Worlds, Mind Over Matter, Spatial Awareness, and Discern Weakness (evil outsider) are particular favorites.

At lower levels (1-6), summon lots of Nashrous. And Legion Devils. Howler Wasps are decent, too. Kaortis for spellcasting.

At mid-levels (7-12), you'll want to lean heavily on Voors (seriously, Voors are so good) Bar-lgura, Canoloths, Amnizu, and Abishai.

At high levels (13+), the world of Vrocks, Osyluths, Hezrou, Dogai, and Chasme is wide open to you.

And that's not even counting setting-specific stuff or going deep into weird splatbooks.