[3.5e] Building a Solar

[SemiteLock]

So my friends want to play a heaven vs hell campaign (no gods fighting persay, just the littler guys going at it), and 2 of us are going to be evil demons/devils and 2 of us are going to be solars/angels/what have you. The thing is, the evil people are playing orcus and mephistopholes (sp?) and so I kinda have to beef the solar up a bit. We arent allowing epic spells thankfully. Pretty much whatever items we want (without reason), as we are minions of the gods themselves. I plan on keeping the cleric levels, and picking up 6 other levels in a class, just wasnt sure yet.

Warblade was an idea, I'd also like item suggestions and other cleric spells if you guys can :smallsmile:

Sources would be great, and we arent going over optimization... just a little.

[Wings of Peace]

Just chain gate.

[SemiteLock]

Just chain gate.

Lol. I was actually thinking that, but couldnt they just chain gate Pit fiends and we would be back at square one :smalleek:

[Wings of Peace]

Depends. I am unfamiliar with Mephistolpheles' and Orcus' At-Wills and I'm afb. How many levels do you have to work with total?

[SemiteLock]

Depends. I am unfamiliar with Mephistolpheles' and Orcus' At-Wills and I'm afb. How many levels do you have to work with total?

6 class levels, unless the DM completely lets me retrain all 23 HD of the solar... which i doubt

[Foryn Gilnith]

You have SLAs, many of them. They don't have material or XP components.

Any items without reason indeed - 1/day wish as an SLA means unlimited magic items, god-servant or not. Scrolls/Wands/Staves of everything you can think of. That also means that any spell with a material component that Wish can emulate can be cast without that component. Forcecage, as a simple example. Any of the Symbol spells for a more complex example.

You have Permanency 3/day. Use it. You should have so many Permanent Symbols of X on your stuff that the ink is leaking off. You should have 40-ish Animated Objects for every day you've been alive. You should have Greater Magic Fang on your slams and Tongues/Arcane Sight on your person.

All I can think of now, probably not terribly helpful, sorry.

[Tavar]

Are the players going to have deathward up? if yes, you need to bring it down, either with greater dispel or disjunction. After that, just keep pegging them with your bow. Each hit is a fort save dc 20, or die. Sure, they'll make a couple saves, but not enough.

[Temotei]

You have Permanency 3/day. Use it. You should have so many Permanent Symbols of X on your stuff that the ink is leaking off. You should have 40-ish Animated Objects for every day you've been alive. You should have Greater Magic Fang on your slams and Tongues/Arcane Sight on your person.

All I can think of now, probably not terribly helpful, sorry.

I don't think you're allowed to use permanency on arcane sight...as written. Unless you can use wish to do that maybe?

Oh, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794).

[SemiteLock]

You have SLAs, many of them. They don't have material or XP components.

Any items without reason indeed - 1/day wish as an SLA means unlimited magic items, god-servant or not. Scrolls/Wands/Staves of everything you can think of. That also means that any spell with a material component that Wish can emulate can be cast without that component. Forcecage, as a simple example. Any of the Symbol spells for a more complex example.

You have Permanency 3/day. Use it. You should have so many Permanent Symbols of X on your stuff that the ink is leaking off. You should have 40-ish Animated Objects for every day you've been alive. You should have Greater Magic Fang on your slams and Tongues/Arcane Sight on your person.

All I can think of now, probably not terribly helpful, sorry.

Yeah i know about wish abuse like that, but im going to see how the other people are going to play there guys... i dont want to make em cry. Much :smallwink:

[Ponce]

Yeah i know about wish abuse like that, but im going to see how the other people are going to play there guys... i dont want to make em cry. Much :smallwink:

Your opponents are MEPHISTOPHELES and ORCUS.

[kpenguin]

You're playing a Solar, which is just one of many soldiers in the army of Good. A powerful soldier, yes, but ultimately just a mook nonetheless.

You're up against Mephistopheles, one of the nine dukes of Baator, and Orcus, a powerful undead demon prince.

You're going to need to pick something better to play as. :smalltongue:

[SemiteLock]

You're playing a Solar, which is just one of many soldiers in the army of Good. A powerful soldier, yes, but ultimately just a mook nonetheless.

You're up against Mephistopheles, one of the nine dukes of Baator, and Orcus, a powerful undead demon prince.

You're going to need to pick something better to play as. :smalltongue:

Yeah but im up against the 2 pcs. Who arent powergaming. I think i can take em with a lil luck and help from the playground

[BobVosh]

I don't think you're allowed to use permanency on arcane sight...as written. Unless you can use wish to do that maybe?

Oh, and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81794).

You can permanency arcane sight. You can't permanency Greater Arcane Sight.

[Temotei]

You can permanency arcane sight. You can't permanency Greater Arcane Sight.

Ah. Mix-up there.

[Augmented Lurk]

You really want to win this? Take Epic Spellcasting.

[Fizban]

Dude, if the other players are playing Mephistophilies and Orcus, you should be playing someone like Raziel or Talisid. Go find yourself a Book of Exalted Deeds and pick one of the Celestial Hebdomad, Five Companions, or Starry Court. Anything less is just chump change is this game.

[Doc Roc]

If you would like my help, I am passively interested in implementing an existing kill technique, and might be willing to help you build out a character that deploys it. Deities are always an interesting challenge.

[lord_khaine]

Well, the main question is what version of Orcust ect are your opponents using?
For the versions i remember from BoVD didnt look that powerfull, they could very well lose to a solar with class levels.

The second question is then whats the most powerfull prestice class a solar could pick? atm im thinking of getting some levels in Ruby knight vindicator, that would both give you maneuvers and advance your cleric casting.

Also, if you took a level in cleric then you would be able to pick Divine metamagic, im sure you can get some fun out of that.

[Doc Roc]

Have done research. Your foes are worthy, though not exceptional. I am willing to undertake design of the build.

[Cyclocone]

If you have 6 levels to play with and can rearrange the solar a little, you could pick up Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 5.

You should, as priority #1, exchange the solars crappy feats for DMM persist etc. and even if epic spellcasting isn't allowed, there's still Multispell.

[lord_khaine]

Do also remember to use Wishes to boost all your stats, and put up a contingency to cast heal or something nice like that.

[Doc Roc]

Heal? Why would I need heal? Achilles v0.2 is immune to damage and spells.

[arguskos]

Uh, so, they're playing Orcus and Mephi? Why aren't you playing members of the Celestial Hebdomad, the Archon Lords, found in the Book of Exalted Deeds? That's the proper thing for you to be playing here. :smallconfused: Basically, what Fizban said. :smalltongue:

Also, Doc Roc, this Achilles interests me. May the Jack of Spades hear more about it? :smallwink:

[lord_khaine]

Heal? Why would I need heal? Achilles v0.2 is immune to damage and spells.

Because if the OP follows my suggestions then he is less likely to get dice and sourcebooks thrown at him by the rest of the group.

[Johel]

As most people have pointed already, there are über angels available to play.
If you still want to play a Solar (or can't play the über angels), using the SRD rules for Monster PC is a start.


A Solar has :
Str 28, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 23, Wis 25, Cha 25
which means modifier of :
Str +18, Dex +10, Con +10, Int +12, Wis +14, Cha +14
point that to your DM and create your character as a regular PC, only with 22HD of Outsider.

Now, the 6 levels...
I suggest 5 levels of Hierophant.
The last level can improve things but, hey, Hierophant alone is pretty powerful if the SLA are concerned by the special abilities.

The main strength of the Solar is the large number of at-will SLA he got.
The defensive ones
aid, remove curse (DC 20), remove disease (DC 20), remove fear (DC 18), resist energy, lesser restoration (DC 19)
The offensive ones
animate objects, dimensional anchor, greater dispel magic, holy smite (DC 21), imprisonment (DC 26), summon monster VII, waves of fatigue
The others
commune, continual flame, invisibility (self only), speak with dead (DC 20)

Imprisonment would be really good...if only it wasn't a touch spell. You don't want to go melee against Orcus, do you ? Well, guess what ? The Hierophant has an ability, "Divine Reach", that let you use touch spell as a 60 ft ranged spell. The Solar already qualifies for the Hierophant PrC.
See with the DM if he is ok for said ability to apply on SLA too. If he is ok, just spam Imprisonment until one of the bad guys fail the will save with a natural "1". Take 2 "Divine Reach"

The Hierophant also has the "Spell Power" ability. While it doesn't give you more effective levels, it increase your CL without specifying if it's for divine spells, spell-like abilities, arcane spells (that's right, a Hierophant can technically cast arcane spells if he got, say, wizard levels) or all at once. To that, one must add the Hierophant levels themselves. Take 3 "Spell Power"

Your Solar has now an effective CL of 28, which is going to be useful for various reasons (SR, Dispel, Remove X,...) . Also, it increases several effects of your spells by 40%, such as letting you call up to 28 Avorals instead of only 20 or simply use Holy Word to paralyze, blind and deafen Balors... and kill Pit Fiend right away, no save.

[Samb]

Just to put things into perpective, solors are no chumps. From the 2nd Ed sourcebook, solors could be gods themelves but choose instead to serve. They are the close attendants of the gods, and they are very rare.

Since they chose to serve rather than rule, they don't have the infamy of the demon lords or the Nine. For angels, solors are the top of the line, and if you convert the warriors of heaven book, they are the only ones that can take class levels since most angels take promotions to a higher form once they max their racial HD. So a solor techanically has the HD and LA of all four lesser angels AND it's own HD/LA.

In sum a solor is no scurb. It should be an even fight.

[SemiteLock]

First and foremost, thank you everyone for your help.

Second, we already agreed to no epic spellcasting


Well, the main question is what version of Orcust ect are your opponents using?
For the versions i remember from BoVD didnt look that powerfull, they could very well lose to a solar with class levels.

The second question is then whats the most powerfull prestice class a solar could pick? atm im thinking of getting some levels in Ruby knight vindicator, that would both give you maneuvers and advance your cleric casting.

Also, if you took a level in cleric then you would be able to pick Divine metamagic, im sure you can get some fun out of that.

I was looking at DMM, i think im going to need it, thanks. They are using 3.5 i believe.


If you have 6 levels to play with and can rearrange the solar a little, you could pick up Cleric 1/Ordained Champion 5.

You should, as priority #1, exchange the solars crappy feats for DMM persist etc. and even if epic spellcasting isn't allowed, there's still Multispell.

yeah the feats are getting moved around for sure. Cleave? cmon now you can do better then that wizards...


Because if the OP follows my suggestions then he is less likely to get dice and sourcebooks thrown at him by the rest of the group.

Fortunately, no one else in the group is strong enough for them to hurt :smallbiggrin:


[LIST=1]
*Stuff about hierophants*

Thanks ill look into that :smallsmile:

I was also thinking about writing a note, about having 4 "lesser" solars with me, but ethereal at all times, to help out... idk if they may literally kill me for that though

[Dante & Vergil]

Ask your DM to see if you can use This (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=266) version of Epic Spellcasting.
I always hate it when the DM says you get nothing new in Epic just because of how WotC went about it.

[Doc Roc]

Well, basically, it occurred to me that we qualify for epic destinies, specifically eternal hero. Then all that was left was to line up a really superb set of immunities and get some access to the action economy.

Are you familiar with the sandwich trick?

[SemiteLock]

Well, basically, it occurred to me that we qualify for epic destinies, specifically eternal hero. Then all that was left was to line up a really superb set of immunities and get some access to the action economy.

Are you familiar with the sandwich trick?

Not at all. Go on...

[Doc Roc]

The sandwich trick is a mechanism by which you permanently switch your body for something.... Better. We'll need to use some variations because the body we want to switch into is magic immune. So we'll need to mind-rape it into cooperation before it becomes magic immune, hand it a ring of spellstoring with shape-change inside it, and get it to change into something non-magic immune.

Then

T_G's sandwich trick
Modified.
The trick runs as follows:

Take one chosen body.
Mindrape it or otherwise insure its cooperation.
Load a ring with alter self.
Magic immunity won't block shape-change.
Render the creature magic immune by applying the half-golem template. Repeat until it becomes a mindless, murderous abomination.
Induce it to shape-change, thus rendering it no longer magic immune and no longer a construct.
Render the Flesh either helpless or in an alternative form.
Manifest Astral Seed. (We'll use miracle)
Kill yourself.
Use Mind Switch to possess the beholder. (We'll use our 1/daily wish, dodging the xp and material costs)
Smash the Astral Seed.
Wait out the Shape Change.


Suggested initial host is a Sarkrith Thane from fiend folio, which is Always Lawful Evil, and thus destroying it entirely this way is a good act. Thanks alignment system!

Outright immunities:
Bludgeoning, Slashing, Piercing, and any spells that allow SR.
Subdual Damage.
Mind-affecting spells.
Anything that requires a saving throw.

Lightly resistant to:
Energy attacks

Significant gains:
Huge constitution, potentially in the 60s.
A bit of action economy access, from Adrenaline Boost.
A really awesome flesh-mount.
Epic destiny: Eternal Hero means we just don't stay dead.


All six class levels are free.

[Samb]

Well, the main question is what version of Orcust ect are your opponents using?
For the versions i remember from BoVD didnt look that powerfull, they could very well lose to a solar with class levels.

umm the BoVD versions are the "real" versions, compared to ones presented in the fiendish codices. And I don't know what you consider "not too tough" but DR 20/7 is pretty bad, not to mention the crazy stuff Orcus can do with his staff or Mesthophestes with his hellfire (he invented it afterall). Orcus is even worshiped as a god of undeath, so the OP's rule of no gods is almost broken with Orcus.

Both sides (or should I say 3 sides since demons and devils would never work together )are basically epic, but without the epic rules, which in some ways is worse since epic spells/weapons are the only things really effective against them.

[hamishspence]

Do the Dragon Magazine (and one Dungeon Magazine) Demonomicon ones count?

They were written by WoTC staffers as I recall- the same ones as wrote Fiendish Codex 1.

Orcus is in Dungeon 149- is CR 32- and fairly formidable- slightly tougher and with more options than the BoVD one, but not by much.

BoVD is 3.0, so some changes to DR, skills, etc, need to be made.

Most of the Demonomicon archfiends have DR/epic and cold iron.

With the most powerful (including Orcus) having DR 20/epic and cold iron and good.

[SemiteLock]

The sandwich trick
Take one chosen body.
Mindrape it or otherwise insure its cooperation.
Lots of other stuff
All six class levels are free.

Isnt Mindrape evil though..? And i thought it was a wizard not cleric spell (i guess i could UMD it)


umm the BoVD versions are the "real" versions, compared to ones presented in the fiendish codices. And I don't know what you consider "not too tough" but DR 20/7 is pretty bad, not to mention the crazy stuff Orcus can do with his staff or Mesthophestes with his hellfire (he invented it afterall). Orcus is even worshiped as a god of undeath, so the OP's rule of no gods is almost broken with Orcus.

Both sides (or should I say 3 sides since demons and devils would never work together )are basically epic, but without the epic rules, which in some ways is worse since epic spells/weapons are the only things really effective against them.

No divine ranks was the bigger point. And DR 20/7 is easy to take care off, just wish my sword to be +7, and cold iron, and adamantine, etc etc etc

[hamishspence]

If you're a PC, one can make the case that you lose the "No XP for spell-like abilities" rule.

Archmages can get spell-like abilities that burn XP- but regardless of the fact that spell-like abilities don't normally cost XP, theirs do.

The same might apply to Solar PCs, Efreet PCs, etc, etc.

Demons and Devils can work together (Faerun has a demon-devil short-lived alliance- House Dlardrageth with Malkizid- a yugoloth lord who is also an ex-archdevil.

he supplies the devils (renegades) them the demons.

Fiendish Codex 2 has, as Asmodeus's ultimate plan, an alliance between him and the demons.

So it's not out of the question- but it would be pretty unusual.

[Doc Roc]

You don't need mindrape. Any means of coercion will work. Mindrape is just a particularly sure one. Programmed Amnesia for example, or even just diplomacy.

Recommend the clay half-golem template, from MM II, pg 209.


The same might apply to Solar PCs, Efreet PCs, etc, etc.

One might houserule it to be so, but it would be exactly that.

[SemiteLock]

If you're a PC, one can make the case that you lose the "No XP for spell-like abilities" rule.

Archmages can get spell-like abilities that burn XP- but regardless of the fact that spell-like abilities don't normally cost XP, theirs do.

The same might apply to Solar PCs, Efreet PCs, etc, etc.

If they are playing as orcus, i sure as hell am going to stand my ground as this. He gets 3 /wishes per day i think, and can summon pitfiends to use their wishes. And ill look into the sandwich thing Roc, thanks. Idk if the DM will approve that though

[Doc Roc]

They're near-deities. With ridiculous meatspace avatars. Why shouldn't you have a nice flesh-mount?

[hamishspence]

The point is, wishing allows you to upgrade items, wish for items etc, but with no listed upper limit.

If both sides are wishing for Infinity+ weapons or armour (or as good as) at no XP cost, it's going to result in weird things.

The XP cost stops normal players with Wish asking for a +100000etc sword.

[Doc Roc]

You could and probably should just ban wish and replace all instances of the word wish with the word miracle.

[hamishspence]

Still requires DM adjucation as to what the "very powerful request", that costs 5000XP (but everyone with spell-like ability can use for free) can be.

[Superglucose]

Still requires DM adjucation as to what the "very powerful request", that costs 5000XP (but everyone with spell-like ability can use for free) can be.
"God comes and smacks you upside the head saying "STFU.""

Miracle, unlike Wish, has the implicit benefit that your god can always say "thanks, but no thanks," or alternatively, "thanks, but I think I'll snack on your brain a bit."

[hamishspence]

yes- it's harder to justify Wish not working, especially when what you're wishing for is within the minimum range of possible wishes that the DM is not supposed to try and subvert.

Which is the problem with Wish and magic items- According to PHB, wishing for one is a low-powered, unsubvertable wish.

Miracle requires a lot more DM adjudication.

[Doc Roc]

Miracle also has a much shorter list of approved functions. This is Important.

In CO-World, GM Adjudication Means No.
In practice, that should probably be true as well.

[hamishspence]

It might solve the problem- if the players and DM agree to using Miracle instead of Wish, and the DM doen't mind the extra work.

[SemiteLock]

It might solve the problem- if the players and DM agree to using Miracle instead of Wish, and the DM doen't mind the extra work.

Our DM is... special. And thats all im going to say. I think we are going to limit them both

[Doc Roc]

May I suggest using the Test of Spite ban list? It's got eight months of testing behind it.

[Samb]

Isnt Mindrape evil though..? And i thought it was a wizard not cleric spell (i guess i could UMD it)



No divine ranks was the bigger point. And DR 20/7 is easy to take care off, just wish my sword to be +7, and cold iron, and adamantine, etc etc etc

The DR is just the tip of the iceberg. The demon lords and the Nine are, like solors, not to be taken lightly especially if they are the version from BoVD. If you compare them to the codex, the BoVD blows them away.
I didn't know about the one CR 32 version in Dragon magazine, but nothing more class levels can't take care of.

If you can get the whole wish SLA taken care of then this could be a great match up. Still, is it free for all or 2v1? I'd have to say you'd be a disadvantage if they are smart players, maybe 2-3 planeter cohorts to even things up?

[SemiteLock]

The DR is just the tip of the iceberg. The demon lords and the Nine are, like solors, not to be taken lightly especially if they are the version from BoVD. If you compare them to the codex, the BoVD blows them away.
I didn't know about the one CR 32 version in Dragon magazine, but nothing more class levels can't take care of.

If you can get the whole wish SLA taken care of then this could be a great match up. Still, is it free for all or 2v1? I'd have to say you'd be a disadvantage if they are smart players, maybe 2-3 planeter cohorts to even things up?

Its 2 pc's versus 2 pc's; 2 are playing heavenly characters and 2 are playing evil. And i think wish/miracle are going to be limited to a non combat role entirely

[ericgrau]

Some kind of playable angel made it into a top AC build a while back. But the short version is for AC you want a monk's belt, bracers of armor, ring of protection and dusty rose prism ioun stone for a good unarmored AC instead of wearing armor. Now that you're unhittable physically, boosting saves would be nice too. So take a couple levels of paladin for cha to saves, and get a cloak of resistance too of course. Or if your diety has the magic domain you can cast protection from spells for a +8.

Finally pump up your wis for a good spell save DC and get a nice expensive weapon. There's your baseline, now just add some tricks and you're good to go.

[Doc Roc]

What was it's AC?
~300? If not, that's not a "top ac" build.

[hamishspence]

The DR is just the tip of the iceberg. The demon lords and the Nine are, like solors, not to be taken lightly especially if they are the version from BoVD. If you compare them to the codex, the BoVD blows them away.
I didn't know about the one CR 32 version in Dragon magazine, but nothing more class levels can't take care of.

The BoVD ones peaked at CR 32 (Demogorgon)

The Dragon magazine (and that one Dungeon Magazine) ones gave most of them CRs in the 28-32 range (Demogorgon got CR33 and lots of new powers)

Think of them as "3.5 BoVD ones" or "massively boosted Fiendish Codex 1 ones"

[ericgrau]

What was it's AC?
~300? If not, that's not a "top ac" build.

~90-something in core only, using one of the playable angels mind you not even a solar. Not bad under those requirements. Still plenty to be unhittable without using anything special just some common gear. Point is the solar could become unhittable even more cheaply, get +7 or more to saves and still have plenty of wealth leftover for offense.