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BooNL
2009-12-09, 09:09 AM
Hey all, couple of questions.

Number 1:

Fire Lash (Ps)
A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.


The ability sounds pretty poorly worded. Is the whip akin to a mindblade or more like a harm spell (that lasts until you drop it)? At first I thought more like harm, but adding WF and WS sounds like it works a bit like a mindblade.
Consequently, is the damage added by WS fire damage or regular damage? Can you use other feats like Psionic Weapon with it and does the attack benefit from high Str (as it functions like a whip)?

Number 2:
If you Gestalt 2 psionic classes with the same casting ability (like a Psion and Lurk for Int or an Ardent and PsiWar for Wis) you get to apply the power point bonus from a high stat twice, right? So a Psion//Lurk with 20 Int would get 12+12 bonus power points at level 5, correct?
Also, are power points a single pool both classes draw from or do you seperate the pool?

Number 3:
Ardent//PsiWar looks like a pretty bad-ass combination, essentially a PsiWar+ as you can use Mantles to gain a number of abilities psychic warriors don't have access to.
Do you have any build advice for a character like this?
Would going Pyrokineticist on the PsiWar side be a good idea? (well, if the Fire Lash thing works as I hope...)

Thanks all.

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-09, 09:24 AM
There was another thread about this earlier. I think we came to the conclusion that you use dex to hit and don't get a Str to damage, cuz of the ranged touch attack part. You should however get your Weapon Aflame damage on your lash (yo dawg we heard you like fire...).

I do think power points are generic, since they would be if you multiclassed normally.
You should also be able to double dip on bonus PP since a sor//wis gestalt would get both sets of bonus spells.

Yes Psy War//Ardent does look sweet.

Person_Man
2009-12-09, 09:59 AM
Number 1: You can use any feat with a fire lash that you can use with a whip. Power Attack, Knockback, Knock-Down, etc. It's essentially like having an all day Wraithtouch.

Number 2: I don't know. I don't play gestalt very often. But my guess is no. Under the gestalt description, it says that "Class features that two classes share (such as uncanny dodge) accrue at the rate of the faster class." The Psion and Lurk both have Int based psionics, so you'd just use the higher of the two abilities. But again, I could be entirely wrong about this. I'd have to re-read UA and the power descriptions of the Psion and Lurk to be sure. If they're dis-similar enough, then maybe it would be two different progressions and bonus points.

Number 3: Again, I'm not huge on Gestalt, so I got nothing. But you might want to check out Flaming Homer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4108954&postcount=22) for a (very abusive) Pyro combo.

Ryuuk
2009-12-09, 10:06 AM
Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134024) the last thread, it may be relevant. It really comes down to 'Ranged touch attack' vs 'feats that apply to a whip apply to it too'. The FAQ says yes to Power Attack and a strength bonus though, and I would guess that any damage added to the whip would also be considered fire damage (as happens with sneak attacks and scorching rays).

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 10:11 AM
I would say pool the power points, since you get slots on both sides as a Vancian gestalt. I'd also say double-dip the bonus, as you do that in a SAD Vancian gestalt too, e.g. Wizard//Archivist. Your augmentation and actions are still limited, after all.

Cyclocone
2009-12-09, 10:21 AM
Number 2:
If you Gestalt 2 psionic classes with the same casting ability (like a Psion and Lurk for Int or an Ardent and PsiWar for Wis) you get to apply the power point bonus from a high stat twice, right? So a Psion//Lurk with 20 Int would get 12+12 bonus power points at level 5, correct?
Also, are power points a single pool both classes draw from or do you seperate the pool?

The closest thing in the rules would probably be multiclassing, which say:


Multiclass Psionic Characters

If you have levels in more than one psionic class, you combine your power points from each class to make up your reserve. You can use these power points to manifest powers from any psionic class you have.

While you maintain a single reserve of power points from your class, race, and feat selections, you are still limited by the manifester level you have achieved with each power you know.

I seem to recall some rule, somewhere, stating that multiclassed psionic characters only receive bonus PP from whichever class gets the most. I don't know how that would translate to gestalt though.

erikun
2009-12-09, 11:42 AM
Number 1:

By "any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip," they mean that feats like Improved Critical (Whip) would apply when using the Fire Lash. The special abilities of the Lasher class, along with any potential "Dagger and Whip" fighting style, would also apply to the Fire Lash.

I'm pretty sure that all damage from the Lash is fire damage, including Weapon Specialization and Sneak Attack.

Number 2:

The only gestalt psionics I've seen grant bonus PP to each side, regardless of ability score. So yes, a Psion//Lurk or Psion//Psychic Rogue would be getting double bonus PP for their high INT.

Please note that gestalting two psionic classes can quickly become overpowering, due to the shared PP pool. (And you do share the PP pool.) I usually avoid doing so, even when I have the chance to.

Number 3:

Ardent isn't as overpowering as, say, a Cleric. The special powers and mantle abilities are handy to have, but has limited PP and the mantle abilities aren't always useful.

Pyrokineticist is underpowered in the D&D environment. It looks like a fun class, and would be a lot of fun in a game like d20 Modern or Muntants and Masterminds, but PsyWar 10/Pyro 10 won't be as strong as PsyWar 20 with the extra powers and PP you get. (Note that you won't be getting extra PP while taking levels in Pyrokineticist, not even from high WIS.)

That said, the gestalt rules allow for a lot of "underpowered" builds because the other side will pick up the slack. Ardent 20//PsyWar 10/Pyro 10 is still a full-powered manifester, after all, along with all the melee fun.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 11:44 AM
I seem to recall some rule, somewhere, stating that multiclassed psionic characters only receive bonus PP from whichever class gets the most. I don't know how that would translate to gestalt though.

Why would that be? A multiclass wizard/cleric with high INT and WIS would get bonus spells on both sides.

Granted, he can't transfer his spell slots from one side to the other, but psionics are already weaker than vancian to begin with.

crazedloon
2009-12-09, 12:07 PM
That said, the gestalt rules allow for a lot of "underpowered" builds because the other side will pick up the slack. Ardent 20//PsyWar 10/Pyro 10 is still a full-powered manifester, after all, along with all the melee fun.

just a note I would suggest psywar 18/pyro 2//ardent 13/ pyro 7 as practiced manifestor can get you up to ML 17 on that side for PP and power level without losing full psy war progression also note that the pyro's 10th level ability sucks

This gives you 6th level Psywar powers and 9th level ardent powers

SaintRidley
2009-12-09, 12:12 PM
just a note I would suggest psywar 18/pyro 2//ardent 13/ pyro 7 as practiced manifestor can get you up to ML 17 on that side for PP and power level without losing full psy war progression also note that the pyro's 10th level ability sucks

This gives you 6th level Psywar powers and 9th level ardent powers

Prestige classes can only go on one side of a gestalt build.

crazedloon
2009-12-09, 12:16 PM
Prestige classes can only go on one side of a gestalt build.

at a time if I am not mistaken therefore you can feel free to finish out a class on ether side of the character

I believe you are mixing it up with this rule



A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if youíre using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of whatís already a high-powered variant. Because itís possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so itís available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 12:22 PM
Prestige classes can only go on one side of a gestalt build.

That's a reasonable houserule, but is stated nowhere in the Gestalt rules.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 12:22 PM
Prestige classes can only go on one side of a gestalt build.

That's debatable. Crazedloon posted the exact wording of the rule; there are two interpretations:

1) Only one side of a gestalt build can ever PrC.

2) Both sides are free to PrC so long as you don't advance a PrC on each side simultaneously.

Using the second interpretation for example, If my gestalt was a Rogue/Shadowdancer//Sorcerer/RDD, then at my next level my options would be:

Rogue//Sorcerer
Rogue//RDD
Shadowdancer//Sorcerer

And I would always be unable to take Shadowdancer//RDD.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-09, 12:38 PM
Even if only one side of the gestalt could PrC, what's stopping you from doing something like:


Side 1 // Side 2
Ardent 10 // Psywar 10
Ardent 2 // Pyro 2
Psywar 8 // Pyro 8

...taking psywar instead of ardent on side 1?

I just wouldn't worry about it. It works either way.

Also, you should gain pp from both manifesting classes, as well as double the pp for the same manifesting score. As was mentioned earlier, slot-based casters gain spell slots from both sides, and there's no reason why manifesters should get the shaft even more.

Ryuuk
2009-12-09, 12:54 PM
The funny thing is, there's no such thing as a 'side' in the gestalt rules, as written. You simply advance in two classes each level. For example, in the above build, who's to say it isn't any of these:

Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Psiwar // Pyro
Pyro // Ardent
Pyro // Ardent

Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Psiwar // Ardent
Pyro // Ardent
Pyro // Ardent
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar
Pyro // Psiwar

Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Ardent
Ardent // Psiwar
Psiwar // Pyro
Pyro // Psiwar
Psiwar // Pyro
Pyro // Psiwar
Psiwar // Pyro
Pyro // Psiwar
Psiwar // Pyro
Pyro // Ardent
Ardent // Pyro

All three are equivalent, with the same class features, HD and skillpoints, some are just easier to graph out then others.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-09, 12:57 PM
The funny thing is, there's no such thing as a 'side' in the gestalt rules, as written. You simply advance in two classes each level. For example, in the above build, who's to say it isn't any of these:

Pyro // Piswar

All three are equivalent, with the same class features, HD and skillpoints, some are just easier to graph out then others.:smallconfused: ...What?

:smalltongue:

Ryuuk
2009-12-09, 01:00 PM
Crap, well, it was Psiwar, let me fix that. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2009-12-09, 01:24 PM
Hmmm. I suddenly have the urge to play a Totemist//Incarnate. Having 45+ essentia points could be pretty ridiculous.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 01:35 PM
Hmmm. I suddenly have the urge to play a Totemist//Incarnate. Having 45+ essentia points could be pretty ridiculous.

I think "ridiculous" was the entire point of Gestalt.

But just for fun, I'd be a Truenamer//Factotum.

Glimbur
2009-12-09, 01:38 PM
Hmmm. I suddenly have the urge to play a Totemist//Incarnate. Having 45+ essentia points could be pretty ridiculous.

Enjoy spending every feat on Double Chakra so you can hold all those soulmelds. Of course, you'll also want Improved Soulmeld Capacity and maybe some Split Chakra.

Zaq
2009-12-09, 01:52 PM
Hmmm. I suddenly have the urge to play a Totemist//Incarnate. Having 45+ essentia points could be pretty ridiculous.

You will run out of chakras before you run out of binds. There's a lot of wasted potential there. In fact, you'll also run out of chakras before you run out of melds. There's a reason there's no meldshaper/meldshaper theurge class.

Myrmex
2009-12-09, 02:10 PM
I seem to recall some rule, somewhere, stating that multiclassed psionic characters only receive bonus PP from whichever class gets the most. I don't know how that would translate to gestalt though.

I think I saw that somewhere too, but I can't find it in either my XPH or the SRD. They may have errata'd it out.

Myrmex
2009-12-09, 02:15 PM
That's debatable. Crazedloon posted the exact wording of the rule; there are two interpretations:

Not... really.

"A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

That's all it says. The simplest interpretation is that, so long as you do not violate dual progression prcs or two prcs at the same time, it's fine (DM permitting). Anything else is adding words that aren't there.


The funny thing is, there's no such thing as a 'side' in the gestalt rules, as written.

Indeed. The best way to visualize the gestalt rule set is not that you are taking two classes at the same time or a multiclass character, but that you are generating new character classes by combining the best parts of two others.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 03:02 PM
Not... really.

"A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

That's all it says. The simplest interpretation is that, so long as you do not violate dual progression prcs or two prcs at the same time, it's fine (DM permitting). Anything else is adding words that aren't there.

It may be the simplest interpretation, but it is still one interpretation. "It's okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class" explicitly allows one PrC per build. A DM could read that strictly to say "One PrC only in the entire gestalt" without fiat, because the rule is vague.

BooNL
2009-12-10, 11:10 AM
Thanks for the help guys.
I guess there isn't really a consensus on the Flame Lash. Just another weirdly written ability at which we can only guess the true meaning of WOTC.

IMO shuffling around classes in gestalt and taking the same PrC at different sides whenever it's benificial is not cool in my book. That's simply the kind of abuse I don't want in my games.

Now, another question. The Wilder's Wild Surge.
Can you use it to fuel Psion manifester levels in a Psion//Wilder gestalt?

I don't normally have these kinds of questions and most (if not all) of the psionic rules are written quite well. It's just that the way it's written kind of braeks down in gestalt...

Optimystik
2009-12-10, 12:30 PM
Now, another question. The Wilder's Wild Surge.
Can you use it to fuel Psion manifester levels in a Psion//Wilder gestalt?

I don't normally have these kinds of questions and most (if not all) of the psionic rules are written quite well. It's just that the way it's written kind of braeks down in gestalt...

Sadly, psionics got little official support, and gestalt is definitely a gray area. Having said that...

The Wild Surge ability specifically mentions Wilders, so I would rule no. However, it shouldn't matter too much as psions and wilders share the same power list, so you can just use your Wilder side to manifest any WS powers. I would make it apply to every power you knew except the ones on a psion discipline list (which Wilders can't access.)

BooNL
2009-12-10, 02:14 PM
Hmmz, the Wilder has a very low number of powers known. So being able to use powers from the Psion side Wild Surged would be awesome.
Anyone else have an opinion?

Also, how would Wild Surge work with Linked Power?

Draz74
2009-12-10, 02:56 PM
Hmmz, the Wilder has a very low number of powers known. So being able to use powers from the Psion side Wild Surged would be awesome.
Anyone else have an opinion?
I might allow it, but only as an explicit Wilder-boosting houserule, not as an "interpretation" of the rules.


Also, how would Wild Surge work with Linked Power?

Works fine. What exactly is the question here? How to deal with Psychic Enervation and the one-round delay? Well, I'd say you only roll for Enervation chance once, when you manifest the initial power, and if it happens, it happens immediately. On the following round, the linked Power goes off the same as if there had been no Wild Surge involved.

Samb
2009-12-10, 03:20 PM
Wild surge and linked power do a lot for eachother. Wild surge allows you manifest cheap powers for free and/or increase the effectivness of the two manifested powers. The extra PP/ML can be used for augmenting, or metapsionics (like squeezing in the linked power for free, say..... Bestow power).

Linked power allows for you to wild surge two powers for only the risk of one ennervation, whereas you normally have to roll twice if you didn't use linked power.

Now if you want to elminate the ennervation there are some easy fixes.
1) easiest is to get Unntapped Potential and use the Maenad racial sublevel for wild, which takes away the daze effect altegether.
2) Schism will work by basically giving you an extra brain to daze. Since ennervation doesn't require a saving throw, it won't dispel the schism either.
3) Sanified mind is a PrC with 5/6 ML progression and allows you to ignore daze and stun effects for a number of rounds equal to your class levels. It also has full BAB progression which makes it ideal for wilder Gish builds.
4) Swift recovery is a feat in LoM that allows you to use a move action to make will save and shake out of daze. Not the best way but maybe the easiest and earliest available.
5) the spell favor of illmater makes you immune to daze and stun. It is a 6th level cleric spell so unless you go pychic theruge you will need your cleric to help out as it is not an early spell.

There are more but IMO these are the most effective. In all honesty, if you like wild surge going into anarcahic initiate might be better so you can take psywar//psion/anarcahic initiate instead.