PDA

View Full Version : Could this quick D&D fix work?



Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 01:16 PM
Would it create a relatively balanced game to use the ToB and the XPH for all classes, with the DMG, PHB, and MiC as sources of feats and items? It seems like it manages to get rid of splatbook dipping and keep everybody around T2-T3. Granted, it limits options somewhat, but ToB and Psionics have enough built in and balanced options to keep the characters varied.

Charlie Kemek
2009-12-09, 01:23 PM
Would it create a relatively balanced game to use the ToB and the XPH for all classes, with the DMG, PHB, and MiC as sources of feats and items? It seems like it manages to get rid of splatbook dipping and keep everybody around T2-T3. Granted, it limits options somewhat, but ToB and Psionics have enough built in and balanced options to keep the characters varied.

No skill monkeys

Zeta Kai
2009-12-09, 01:29 PM
No skill monkeys

Add in Dungeonscape (a good book anyway) for the Factotum, the best skillmonkey in the game. Problem solved.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 01:32 PM
The Soulknife will be so happy to hear that he made the cut into this group of "balanced" classes. :smallwink:

Other than that, sounds fine (with the inclusion of Factotum).

Zovc
2009-12-09, 01:32 PM
Swordsage has the skill points to be a skillmonkey, but not the class skills. I know of the Lurk (Complete Psionic?), but never looked at the class, it's supposed to the rogue what the psiwar is to the fighter.

There's also the psychic rogue, not sure where that one is.

There's the Factotum and the Beguiler, but both reference spells, which you seem to be trying to avoid.

Other skillmonkeys to consider are the Bard, Scout (nonmagic), Spellthief, and Ninja.

Sure, limiting options makes it easier to balance, but can keep players from playing what they want to.

You may want to consider allowing things from random books with or without allowing classes and/or prestige classes. I'm mostly suggesting that you might want more feats than PHB and DMG.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 01:37 PM
Magic of Incarnum is pretty good as well, though the soulborne has some problems(but so does the soulknife).

Unfortunately, the Lurk lacks search, disable device, or trapfinding. So, no, it can't really be a skillmonkey, even if you discount it's low Skill Points.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 01:37 PM
Swordsage has the skill points to be a skillmonkey, but not the class skills. I know of the Lurk (Complete Psionic?), but never looked at the class, it's supposed to the rogue what the psiwar is to the fighter.

There's also the psychic rogue, not sure where that one is.

There's the Factotum and the Beguiler, but both reference spells, which you seem to be trying to avoid.

Other skillmonkeys to consider are the Bard, Scout (nonmagic), Spellthief, and Ninja.

Sure, limiting options makes it easier to balance, but can keep players from playing what they want to.

You may want to consider allowing things from random books with or without allowing classes and/or prestige classes. I'm mostly suggesting that you might want more feats than PHB and DMG.

True, more feat options wouldn't be unreasonable, but as I said, it was a quick fix. Also, the Psychic Rogue is more cleric than fighter (in the melee capabilities); it buffs up and then fights, compensating for it's subpar fighting attributes (d8 HD, 3/4ths BAB).

Still, yeah, no skill monkeys, but factotum is pretty balanced and makes a fine one. Psions also don't do too badly due to int focus, but they don't have many class skills.

erikun
2009-12-09, 01:39 PM
Psychic Rogue + Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a)

Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are PHB classes which aren't replaced as easily with your current class selection.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 01:40 PM
Something else, the Wilder is almost strictly worse than the Psion.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 01:41 PM
Psychic Rogue + Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a)

Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are PHB classes which aren't replaced as easily with your current class selection.

Barbarian = ToB classes. Sure, you don't get rage, and you can get massive damage with barbarian pouncing, but it fits the "tank in melee" role, and so does ToB.

Bard: Psion focusing on buffs? Bards buff, psions have some buffing. This is a bit of a loss, true.

Ranger: Psywar with a "The big guy is with me" build for his psicrystal. You've got good melee/ranged, and you get buffs, and you get a psicrystal companion you metamorph into whatever you want.

EDIT: Wilder being strictly worse than the psion: I know it is. The Soulknife is also terrible. Still, the XPH and ToB are probably my favorite and (arguably) the best balanced books D&D has released (excluding, again, soulknife and wilder), so I still think this is a workable hotfix that lets melee and magic combine without somebody feeling weak.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 01:44 PM
Something else, the Wilder is almost strictly worse than the Psion.

True, but a carefully-built Wilder still doesn't suck, and can possibly hold its own with every class allowed in this "quick fix" except Psion. (Psion: Tier 2. Warblade/Crusader/Swordsage/Factotum/Psychic Warrior/Wilder: all arguably Tier 3. Soulknife: low Tier 5.)


Barbarian, Bard, and Ranger are PHB classes which aren't replaced as easily with your current class selection.

Barbarian: make a Warblade. Refluff some of its stances as Rage (Punishing Stance works well). Pick your maneuvers from Stone Dragon, Iron Heart (the defensive ones), and Tiger Claw (other than crit/TWF-based maneuvers). There. You're a little lacking in nature skills and ranged weapon proficiency, but those aren't a big deal, and can possibly be solved with some multiclassing.

Bard: yeah, this one's harder, but a Crusader focused mostly on White Raven might not actually be too far off. Especially with some Factotum multiclassing (for skills, especially Perform).

Ranger: hmmm. I guess you can do ok with some combination of Factotum and Psychic Warrior, but ... yeah, this is one archetype that's getting left out somewhat. Is the Wild Cohort feat allowed?

Zovc
2009-12-09, 01:51 PM
Ranger: Psywar with a "The big guy is with me" build for his psicrystal. You've got good melee/ranged, and you get buffs, and you get a psicrystal companion you metamorph into whatever you want.

EDIT: Wilder being strictly worse than the psion: I know it is. The Soulknife is also terrible. Still, the XPH and ToB are probably my favorite and (arguably) the best balanced books D&D has released (excluding, again, soulknife and wilder), so I still think this is a workable hotfix that lets melee and magic combine without somebody feeling weak.

I don't think the Psywar gets a psicrystal, but he can emulate the Soulknife with the online ACF.

I'm sure something could be done for the Wilder along the lines of giving him slightly more powers (and probably catching his maximum power level up to the Psion). Again, Psywar can be a soulknife.

I'm with you on XPH and ToB being great, I just don't want your 'fix' to leave anything broken. :P Nevertheless, it'd be a great improvement to the game's balance.

How will UMD survive this? Will it be removed (along with wands and scrolls and stuff? UPD does replace it well enough, but there'll be no "want of cure light wounds," for example.

Superglucose
2009-12-09, 01:54 PM
Banning Leap Attack and allowing Leadership sounds pretty wonky to me but otherwise, I'd just houserule that Rogue is ok and Bard is ok and go from there.

erikun
2009-12-09, 01:54 PM
Barbarian = ToB classes. Sure, you don't get rage, and you can get massive damage with barbarian pouncing, but it fits the "tank in melee" role, and so does ToB.

Ranger: Psywar with a "The big guy is with me" build for his psicrystal. You've got good melee/ranged, and you get buffs, and you get a psicrystal companion you metamorph into whatever you want.
Not just in combat, though. Both of these classes have the "I can trek through the wilderness and survive off the land" theme, which doesn't seem to be anywhere in ToB or Psionics. I'm not familiar with the ToB classes, but there are no psionic classes with Handle Animal or Survival as a class skill, and only Psychic Warriors have Ride as a class skill.

Giving Handle Animal and Survival (and possibly others, like Knowledge: Nature) to the Wilder will probably work. As Draz said, Wilder certainly doesn't suck; it's just not a Psion.

[EDIT] grammar

Tavar
2009-12-09, 01:56 PM
No one gets a crystal normally, but you can take the feat.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 01:59 PM
I don't think the Psywar gets a psicrystal, but he can emulate the Soulknife with the online ACF.

Psicrystal is a feat, they can take it.


I'm sure something could be done for the Wilder along the lines of giving him slightly more powers (and probably catching his maximum power level up to the Psion). Again, Psywar can be a soulknife.

Having more powers known and a bit of skillmonkey abilities would solve most of the problems of the fix.


How will UMD survive this? Will it be removed (along with wands and scrolls and stuff? UPD does replace it well enough, but there'll be no "want of cure light wounds," for example.

UMD would probably be allowed (and transparencied with UPD due to the lack of arcane and divine casting), but carefully controlled (healing and restorations, mostly, and maybe some utility). I could also just add in healing spells to the psion list, because, well, there's no reason they shouldn't be there.

Also, survival is an incredibly easy check even untrained. Taking 10 lets you live off the land easily. Plus, Factotum gives you the skill monkey that can be reflavored to anything.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 02:05 PM
UMD would probably be allowed (and transparencied with UPD due to the lack of arcane and divine casting), but carefully controlled (healing and restorations, mostly, and maybe some utility). I could also just add in healing spells to the psion list, because, well, there's no reason they shouldn't be there.
Note that the Psion can already be a pretty decent healer. Vigor + Empathic Transfer. Especially powerful when combined with a Psicrystal and Share Pain (to double the effects of Vigor). These, plus a few other powers here and there (True Metabolism) mean the Psion can heal if that's what she wants to spend her Powers Known on.

Still, more straightforward healing (a la the Mend Wounds power in Complete Psionic) is much less of a pain, and I don't have a problem with houseruling it into the mix.

Note that Crusaders are also excellent backup healers, which further reduces the need for UMD-ing healing.


Also, survival is an incredibly easy check even untrained. Taking 10 lets you live off the land easily. Plus, Factotum gives you the skill monkey that can be reflavored to anything.

Yeah, Factotum works just fine for Handle Animal/Survival/etc.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 02:16 PM
To be honest, I'd be happy with the wilder if it got just one more power. I don't know why, but it irks me that you only know one power as a 'caster.'

As a matter of fact, just move the Wilder's entire powers known and maximum power level columns up a level. At 20, feel free to give them an extra power.

You could either add minor "packages" to the Wilder, or simply add things to their skill list. It's conceivable for the Wilder to have a tribal flavor (Survival and Knowledge (Nature)), or to have a rough urban uprising (Hide, Move Silently, Slight of Hand), and it really could fill the skillmonkey role.

I don't know if it's okay to make the wilder a cool spellcaster and a skillmonkey with 6+Int, although he would need Charisma and Intelligence.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 02:30 PM
To be honest, I'd be happy with the wilder if it got just one more power. I don't know why, but it irks me that you only know one power as a 'caster.'

As a matter of fact, just move the Wilder's entire powers known and maximum power level columns up a level. At 20, feel free to give them an extra power.

You could either add minor "packages" to the Wilder, or simply add things to their skill list. It's conceivable for the Wilder to have a tribal flavor (Survival and Knowledge (Nature)), or to have a rough urban uprising (Hide, Move Silently, Slight of Hand), and it really could fill the skillmonkey role.

I don't know if it's okay to make the wilder a cool spellcaster and a skillmonkey with 6+Int, although he would need Charisma and Intelligence.

You really like the fact the wilder only gets 1 power per level (2 1st and 9ths?) Even with the flexibility of psionic powers, that's still extremely limited. I'd double their powers known, honestly, and they still wouldn't be as good as psions (still less powers, still no access to the goodies on psion only lists). Then again, psions are the "high" point of this fix, so making wilders exactly as good as psions isn't the idea.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 02:36 PM
Okay, you're right. I knew the Psion had more, but I didn't realize how much more he had (and I've even compared them before). I'd say starting at 2 and getting a new power each level would be fine. Whether or not you wanted them to get new power levels at the same rate as Psions would be up to you.

6+Int skill points a level is probably fine, and their skill list definitely should be improved. Perhaps you can give both the Swordsage and the Wilder Trapfinding and Disable Device?

ken-do-nim
2009-12-09, 02:55 PM
Add in Dungeonscape (a good book anyway) for the Factotum, the best skillmonkey in the game. Problem solved.

Isn't Factotum tier 1 and the OP wanted to stay between tiers 2 and 3?

I'd recommend adding Player's Handbook II to the trio. Duskblades and beguilers (skill monkey) will be quite happy alongside their ToB and XPH fellows.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 02:58 PM
Isn't Factotum tier 1 and the OP wanted to stay between tiers 2 and 3?

I'd recommend adding Player's Handbook II to the trio. Duskblades and beguilers (skill monkey) will be quite happy alongside their ToB and XPH fellows.

Factotum is T3. It doesn't get high level spellcasting, and doesn't get a lot of it. It can break the action economy with font of inspiration, but that's the only cheese it gets.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 03:03 PM
To be honest, I'd be happy with the wilder if it got just one more power. I don't know why, but it irks me that you only know one power as a 'caster.'

Take Hidden Talent at Level 1? :smallwink:


Factotum is T3. It doesn't get high level spellcasting, and doesn't get a lot of it. It can break the action economy with font of inspiration, but that's the only cheese it gets.

Yeah ... without Font of Inspiration, it's low T3. With Font of Inspiration, it's high T3 or low T2 (still less powerful than Psion).

Person_Man
2009-12-09, 03:26 PM
Pretty much, yeah. Though really all you need to do is have your players work as a group to build their characters to the same ballpark of power level. But if I did take your approach, I would include the Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Factotum, Incarnate, Psychic Warrior, Swordsage, Totemist, Warblade, and the Warmage. It's not casting that's broken. It's huge spell lists. The Warmage is a good class in a world with no Batman, and where no one else has blasting spells.

Zovc
2009-12-09, 03:30 PM
Yeah ... without Font of Inspiration, it's low T3. With Font of Inspiration, it's high T3 or low T2 (still less powerful than Psion).

Even with Font of Inspiration, a Factotum doesn't have much of anything to do with his extra actions. In gestalt, that's another story.

I mean, you can get a lot of wands or something, but it's not that big of a deal.

Draz74
2009-12-09, 03:36 PM
Even with Font of Inspiration, a Factotum doesn't have much of anything to do with his extra actions. In gestalt, that's another story.

I mean, you can get a lot of wands or something, but it's not that big of a deal.

... You haven't seen the CO thread about the FoI-spamming Factotum with a Wand of Ray of Stupidity, have you? (Granted, that spell is broken anyway. But at least other classes can't one-shot anything except Animals with it.)