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Narmoth
2009-12-09, 02:57 PM
Hi, have anyone tried the Apostle of Peace PrC from BoED?
I'm going to try him at a PbP game, and wonder if there's any tricks to the class

Mongoose87
2009-12-09, 02:59 PM
He is prone to irritating other, more stabbity-oriented characters/players.

Narmoth
2009-12-09, 03:04 PM
I know. But with 6 lvls of Paladin and 7 lvls of Blackguard before my 4 lvls of Apostle, I doubt anyone will dare to voice any complaints. Heck, my aura of evil (still not gone, I expect) and my intimidate skill alone should do wonders

sonofzeal
2009-12-09, 03:12 PM
Apostles of Peace must be Good to have their Vows, and Blackguards must be evil. Doesn't work.



Vow of Peace is not nearly as restrictive as most people think though. It does not prevent you from - buffing allies who kill enemies, debuffing enemies so they can be killed, dealing nonlethal damage, dealing lethal damage to constructs and undead, engaging in battlefield control, or generally being useful. It does, however, apply a small temporary penalty to allies who CDG helpless or surrendered enemies. If you can get by without this (entirely possible in most campaigns), you'll be fine.


Do note that Apostle of Peace has some issues with Vow of Poverty. There's contradicting text, and the picture clearly shows someone with magic items, so I'd assume that it's a mistake and should be houseruled away.

hamishspence
2009-12-09, 03:15 PM
yes- an ex-blackguard probably won't have that aura.

Maybe pull the Vow of Poverty from the class requirements. "Unofficial errata", so to speak.

Narmoth
2009-12-09, 03:26 PM
Apostles of Peace must be Good to have their Vows, and Blackguards must be evil. Doesn't work.

Yes, but there's no rules on falling from the blackguard class the same way as falling from the paladin class. So, he's not able to gain additional levels because he's no longer evil, but he doesn't loose any abilities.

sonofzeal
2009-12-09, 03:37 PM
Yes, but there's no rules on falling from the blackguard class the same way as falling from the paladin class. So, he's not able to gain additional levels because he's no longer evil, but he doesn't loose any abilities.
You're going to have a heck of a time fitting in all the necessary feats between exiting Blackguard and entering Apostle of Peace. o.0

olentu
2009-12-09, 03:47 PM
Yes, but there's no rules on falling from the blackguard class the same way as falling from the paladin class. So, he's not able to gain additional levels because he's no longer evil, but he doesn't loose any abilities.

Well there is that passage from complete warrior about what happens when no longer meets the requirement for a prestige class but if one could get a DM ruling or something of the sort against that then it might work.

Grumman
2009-12-09, 03:52 PM
Vow of Peace is not nearly as restrictive as most people think though. It does not prevent you from - buffing allies who kill enemies, debuffing enemies so they can be killed, dealing nonlethal damage, dealing lethal damage to constructs and undead, engaging in battlefield control, or generally being useful. It does, however, apply a small temporary penalty to allies who CDG helpless or surrendered enemies. If you can get by without this (entirely possible in most campaigns), you'll be fine.
It does prevent you debuffing enemies so they can be killed - this is explicitly stated in the book: "You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so your allies can kill them".

And just because Hippy McLoveandpeace feels bad about Stabby finishing off temporarily incapacitated foes doesn't mean that Stabby will appreciate being magically forced to feel the same way.

Omegonthesane
2009-12-09, 03:52 PM
You're going to have a heck of a time fitting in all the necessary feats between exiting Blackguard and entering Apostle of Peace. o.0

Retraining? Having the feats to begin with? I never got why BoED made it impossible to ever get your Exalted feats back if you are ever not a saint.

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 03:55 PM
Yes, but there's no rules on falling from the blackguard class the same way as falling from the paladin class. So, he's not able to gain additional levels because he's no longer evil, but he doesn't loose any abilities.

CW disagrees - once you no longer meet PrC prerequisites, you lose PrC abilities.

JeenLeen
2009-12-09, 04:01 PM
CW disagrees - once you no longer meet PrC prerequisites, you lose PrC abilities.

I've always heard that as referring to PrC from Complete Warrior and only Complete Warrior. (I think Complete Mage or Arcane has the same text.) It seems like something to extrapolate to other books, but the RAW reading I've always seen is that it doesn't.

Starbuck_II
2009-12-09, 04:03 PM
CW disagrees - once you no longer meet PrC prerequisites, you lose PrC abilities.

Stop making the universe implode.
If this logic is true, then Dragon deciples cause an implosion of reality.

So this might only be true for CW Prcs, since otherwise there would be no game to play in.

sofawall
2009-12-09, 04:05 PM
I've always heard that as referring to PrC from Complete Warrior and only Complete Warrior. (I think Complete Mage or Arcane has the same text.) It seems like something to extrapolate to other books, but the RAW reading I've always seen is that it doesn't.

Does it say that it only applies to books in CW? No?

Then RAW says it applies everywhere.

Also, sidenote, why is RAW slowly turning more and more into RAIITAYCPIW,N on GitP? RAW is a strict reading of the rules, not a strict reading and some interpretation. I mean, some things (Shivering Touch, Scout Uncanny Dodge) make little to no sense when read RAW-style, but this has a clearly defined RAW output.

Grumman
2009-12-09, 04:06 PM
CW disagrees - once you no longer meet PrC prerequisites, you lose PrC abilities.
Personally I'd rule that you only lose abilities that are reasonably derived from what you are missing. So a blackguard who becomes nonevil would lose his spells and his fiendish servant would probably try to kill him, but he'd get to keep his sneak attack. An Ur-Priest (or Assassin) who somehow became nonevil wouldn't lose anything since the whole point of the class is that you don't ask, you take, but would quickly revert to being evil on his own.

Narmoth
2009-12-09, 04:07 PM
Well, by Complete Warrior, it's true. But then a ECL 17 character with 4 lvls of Apostle of Peace is a pathetic character indeed

Optimystik
2009-12-09, 04:13 PM
Stop making the universe implode.
If this logic is true, then Dragon deciples cause an implosion of reality.

So this might only be true for CW Prcs, since otherwise there would be no game to play in.

A universe without Dragon Disciples is one worth living in.

It's possible the CW line only applies to CW - but remember also that it was the first of the "Completes." They simply may have not seen the need to reiterate in subsequent volumes.

Elfin
2009-12-09, 04:14 PM
Narmoth - since it seems that you do, in fact, no longer qualify for the Blackguard class, it seems fair that you're an atoned Paladin, and still have all the Paladin class abilities. I also don't want you to feel like you wasted 7 levels, so I'd be more than happy to let you become just a Paladin 12/Blackguard 1/ Apostle of Peace 4.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-09, 07:57 PM
lol calm down sofawall. Just show the text and explain :)

Zincorium
2009-12-10, 09:42 AM
Vow of nonviolence- workable.

Vow of peace- not so much. Seriously, whenever you, as a player, are penalizing the other players for acting in character, without their permission, that is a BAD THING. Unless everyone else is on the exact same wavelength, you are going to cause massive friction.

Also, I think any DM that lets you have functioning Blackguard abilities while playing an Exalted character has pretty much thrown the crunch-fluff link out the window, and I'd say any attempt at making sense is at least poised on the window ledge if not already over.

Narmoth
2009-12-10, 01:42 PM
Nah, I've done a pal/bg/ordained champion/soulguard in Shademans campaign, and it worked really great. Keeping all abilities except those of the paladin, and with slay living in stead of slay good/evil it was a really fun character to play to redemption. He's currently leading an army of Vashar rebels in the Vashar empire and trying to redeem them :smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2009-12-10, 01:53 PM
Nah, I've done a pal/bg/ordained champion/soulguard in Shademans campaign, and it worked really great.

You do realize none of those PrCs are exalted...

Oslecamo
2009-12-10, 01:59 PM
Narmoth - since it seems that you do, in fact, no longer qualify for the Blackguard class, it seems fair that you're an atoned Paladin, and still have all the Paladin class abilities. I also don't want you to feel like you wasted 7 levels, so I'd be more than happy to let you become just a Paladin 12/Blackguard 1/ Apostle of Peace 4.

From a fluff standpoint, that would be questionable at best.

Pelor:So, you were first a martial champion of light, then a martial champion of evil, and now you want to be an apostle of peace?
Player:Hmm, yes!
Pelor:You think I'm drunk or something? Double betrayal doesn't stay very well in a curriculum!

Tshern
2009-12-10, 02:05 PM
Stop making the universe implode.
If this logic is true, then Dragon deciples cause an implosion of reality.

So this might only be true for CW Prcs, since otherwise there would be no game to play in.
Indeed, it's not like WotC had a history of logical cul de sacs or something.

Narmoth
2009-12-10, 02:35 PM
From a fluff standpoint, that would be questionable at best.

Pelor:So, you were first a martial champion of light, then a martial champion of evil, and now you want to be an apostle of peace?
Player:Hmm, yes!
Pelor:You think I'm drunk or something? Double betrayal doesn't stay very well in a curriculum!

Yeah, but if he gains the power from a philosophy, and not a god then it's not a problem.

Oslecamo
2009-12-10, 02:45 PM
Yeah, but if he gains the power from a philosophy, and not a god then it's not a problem.

Sounds more like a politician, constantly changing his speech depending on the circumstances.:smalltongue:

Optimystik
2009-12-10, 03:17 PM
A philosophy is even stricter. No one who dedicates himself to the universal concept of good should be allowed to channel Blackguard abilities. At least a deity can "go to bat for you."

I have nothing against an ex-Blackguard becoming an Apostle of Peace - quite flavorful, actually - but maintaining access to the fear aura, dark powers etc. is pushing it.

sonofzeal
2009-12-10, 03:20 PM
A philosophy is even stricter. No one who dedicates himself to the universal concept of good should be allowed to channel Blackguard abilities. At least a deity can "go to bat for you."

I have nothing against an ex-Blackguard becoming an Apostle of Peace - quite flavorful, actually - but maintaining access to the fear aura, dark powers etc. is pushing it.
It would make more sense if they were spaced out a bit more. Going straight from one to the other involves heavy shenanigans. Feat Retraining shouldn't be necessary during character creation.

Person_Man
2009-12-10, 05:41 PM
I have a nifty Apostle of Peace build you might want to look into:

Saint Bertold

Whatever 3/Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) 4/Apostle of Peace 4/Full Caster Progression PrC X

Saint Bertold should only be played by a mature player, interested in a lot of roleplaying, with an all Good group interested in a challenge. Your Vows have all sorts of ridiculous pre-conditions, such as taking all helpless or incapacitated living enemies prisoner instead of killing them. So again, do not play this build unless everyone in your party is on board with it. That said, hereís how it works:

Whatever 3 can be anything with Concentration (prereq for Apostle of Peace) as a class Skill. A mix of Paladin, Binder, Incarnate, and/or any Skill Monkey class might be a good idea.

Knight gives you Test of Mettle.

Apostle of Peace (Book of Exalted Deeds) offers ridiculously fast casting, giving you 9th level spells at ECL 16, from good but somewhat limited list. It also gives you Turn Undead, a no Save Calm Emotions, and Censure Demons. Nothing but spells after 4 levels though, so head into any other PrC that offers full caster progression.

The catch is that you need to take Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace, Vow of Non-Violence, and Vow of Poverty.

Vow of Peace and Vow of Non-Violence boosts the Save DCs of all of your abilities and spells (including Test of Mettle), makes weapons break against you, and give you other abilities.

So your combos are rather strait forward. Use Test of Mettle, and enemies will hopelessly attack you, breaking their weapons against you. Your friends can incapacitate those who aren't effected, and then focus on the people who are one at a time. If an enemy isnít effected by Test of Mettle, you can use Calm Emotions, Skills, or the many spells at your disposal.

For extra fun, find a way to get really small (I suggest being a Hengeyokai) and you can also take a feat called Confound the Bigfolk from Races of the Wild. It has some very specific mechanics you have to follow, but basically if you're two sizes smaller then your enemy then you can move into his square, and the next round heís Flat Footed against you, and when other enemies attack you they have a 50% chance of hitting the enemy in your square instead of you.

Again, the tactics are pretty strait forward:

1) Move into an enemy's square and find something to do for one round.

2) Use Test of Mettle. Enemies attack you. They have a 50% chance of hitting their friend, and a 50% chance of hitting you (which should be very difficult, given your Size, Dex, armor, shield, Underfoot/Confound bonuses, Combat Expertise, etc). If they hit you, their weapon must Save or break. If they kill the enemy whose square you're in, move into another enemy's square.

3) Instead of attacking (which you're not that good at anyway), use your Apostle of Peace spells. In particular, I suggest casting Sanctuary (so that enemies must make a Will Save before attacking you, which they are compelled to do), Calm Emotions, Magic Circle Against Evil, Wind Wall, etc. Anything that frustrates enemies' efforts to hurt you, while your friends incapacitate them one at a time. (Or destroy them, if they don't fall under your vow - undead, constructs, etc). You can also use Intimidate to Demoralize enemies, use magic items, heal yourself if you ever get hit, etc.

Narmoth
2009-12-18, 07:07 PM
Nice build. Except that an Apostle of Peace shouldn't really be involved in fighting. Thus I'd make him more heavy on the pre-fighting influencing side than what is read out from the post.

arguskos
2009-12-18, 07:20 PM
Nice build. Except that an Apostle of Peace shouldn't really be involved in fighting. Thus I'd make him more heavy on the pre-fighting influencing side than what is read out from the post.
Actually, why not? St. Bertold is a classical kind of saint, the sort that walks into combat with his hands held to either side, catching and breaking swords to stop the fighting. Sounds fun, actually. :smallamused: