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ChakraChanter
2009-12-09, 06:03 PM
So I've always wanted to have my PCs descend and attmept to kill Asmodeus. It will prolly be asked by the gods, of the few that remain (I believe they will be Kord and Bahamut). I've tried to come up with flavor but it just ends up stupid. This will probably be the last game I will have with them in years. I want to make this quite the experience and totally epic.

I have read some of the history of Baator, but my knowledge is limited (Such as the Examplers of Evil, er something like that)

I have a bad habit of helping my players too often, but I'm strict with the rules often too. I want to provide challenge, but not impossibility:smallamused:

The players will most likely be level 20 and we're using 3.5.

So any suggestions?

Edit: I will probable introduce them witnessing Baccob being killed by Tiamet (In human form) so they may want to go after her as well (I am aware that someone else made a forum specifically about battling Tiamet). I don't understand clearly what her lair is like and something about a weak little 'bouncer' that hangs around at the mouth of the lair.

My PCs are also stupid in the fact that no one is ever a healer (facepalm). I don't like forcing people to play classes, but I feel there is an incredible need for one. Any further suggestions, along the ones from the inquiries above as well:smallsmile:

ShakeHandsMan
2009-12-09, 06:06 PM
You have peaked my interest, keeping an eye on this thread. BTW Fiendish Codex II is pretty much a necessity.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-09, 06:18 PM
You have peaked my interest, keeping an eye on this thread. BTW Fiendish Codex II is pretty much a necessity.

Yes, I have read that too (barely), but I don't understand the Pact Primeval.

I would love thoughts. I really need help on this on. I really want to show my players a great time!

Temotei
2009-12-09, 06:27 PM
Yes, I have read that too (barely), but I don't understand the Pact Primeval.

I would love thoughts. I really need help on this on. I really want to show my players a great time!

If you want ideas, we're running a campaign in the play-by-post part of the forum. It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133861). We've just started, so there's not much yet.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-09, 09:49 PM
If you want ideas, we're running a campaign in the play-by-post part of the forum. It's here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133861). We've just started, so there's not much yet.

Alright thank you. I'll check it out, but I would still like to hear your opinion, or any advice you have to offer

Zanatos777
2009-12-09, 11:18 PM
Here's an idea for flavor: Asmodeus has finally gained the temporary alliance with the demons he has sought and thus has made war on the good gods (this is the basic plan in the Codex). The PCs can then be asked by the gods to assassinate Asmodeus and hopefully the other archfiends.

I also suggest getting the Codex as it has the stats of the archfiend's aspects.

Temotei
2009-12-09, 11:29 PM
Alright thank you. I'll check it out, but I would still like to hear your opinion, or any advice you have to offer

Read Fiendish Codex II, and maybe even the original Fiendish Codex. Understand what devils and demons are separated by, and understand what a devil would do in a specific situation. Also, for advice on the campaign, I recommend showing the dangers of everything. Basically, nothing is safe down there, so make it seem like the player characters will never get a rest. They'll savor each and every hour they get to rest. Consider having extreme conditions in certain places, as well.

Zeta Kai
2009-12-09, 11:33 PM
For one of my campaigns, I introduced the PCs to the Nine Hells at level 12. At every level thereafter, they descended another level, until they reaches Nessus at level 20. It wasn't pretty, but it was a lot of fun.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 01:42 AM
For one of my campaigns, I introduced the PCs to the Nine Hells at level 12. At every level thereafter, they descended another level, until they reaches Nessus at level 20. It wasn't pretty, but it was a lot of fun.

How were they able to survive against a Pit Fiend, especially with the ability to wish? DId you cherry pick the battles, or were they confronted with the horrific horrors of Hell? Did you incorporate the 'police' in the layers, and if so, how did they acquire the 'legal' papers?

kpenguin
2009-12-10, 01:50 AM
Have them strike a deal with Levistus. They find a way to free him from his icy imprisonment and they get an ally, albeit a very traitorous one, against Asmodeus.

Zaq
2009-12-10, 02:06 AM
How were they able to survive against a Pit Fiend, especially with the ability to wish? DId you cherry pick the battles, or were they confronted with the horrific horrors of Hell? Did you incorporate the 'police' in the layers, and if so, how did they acquire the 'legal' papers?

Hell is a very, very big place. Not all of every layer is Ground Zero of the Blood War, nor are Pit Fiends as common as housecats. Sure, most things there tend to be very unfriendly, but they're not all unfriendly on the level of, say, a Cornugon.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 02:31 AM
Hell is a very, very big place. Not all of every layer is Ground Zero of the Blood War, nor are Pit Fiends as common as housecats. Sure, most things there tend to be very unfriendly, but they're not all unfriendly on the level of, say, a Cornugon.

I respectfully disagree. If you are illegally in Baator (which I'm sure others will be able to tell, or check to see if you have correct documents) then you will be hunted. Devils are very strict, and the laws are followed to the utmost degree. Yes, they may not run into the Archdevils (Great Eight??), but your saying they didn't run into a Pit Fiend till they were ready to fight one. I tend to believe not.


Have them strike a deal with Levistus. They find a way to free him from his icy imprisonment and they get an ally, albeit a very traitorous one, against Asmodeus.

Who is Levistus? (Never heard of him:smallfrown:)

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 02:32 AM
The Pact Primeval is one very good reason why the [Lawful] good gods would NOT send PCs to dispose of Asmodeus. Here's the basics on the pact:

1. Chaos [the demons] was overrunning the universe. The gods needed to deal with it. They made the angels, who are supposed to uphold universal law.

2. Asmodeus was chief of these angels. However, due to his dedication to law no matter what, he began using increasingly brutal methods in dealing with them. He and his friends began to resemble the demons.

3. Asmodeus knew that law demanded punishment, so he would take the souls of evil people and punish them in the gods' dwelling-places.

4. Some gods approved of Asmodeus's methods. Some deliberately sided with him. Others spoke out against his methods. Eventually, though, the good gods prevailed and asked him to leave the heavens and take his punishment with him.

5. Asmodeus produced the Pact Primeval, which basically ceded Baator (then an empty plane, depending on the source---Asmodeus seemed to have wiped out the original inhabitants in some accounts---all agree on it being empty, though.) to him and established him as jail warden of the entire cosmos. He would be allowed to continue his (very necessary) work there, away from the gods.

6. The fine print of the Pact, however, says that Asmodeus can siphon the power of the souls he punishes. The good gods saw this too late, but that's how Asmodeus outmaneuvered them.

7. There are three copies of the Pact---one in Nessus, one in Celestia, and one in Mechanus. All three are heavily guarded, and I don't mean by a bunch of heavily-armed mercenaries in a glass case with a dozen trip wires.
I mean something on the order of Solars, Maruts, Pit Fiends, dozens of layers of shielding, dimensional locks, wards, and contingencies designed to set the entire damn plane on you once you breach the defenses. Keep in mind that many of these Outsiders have True Seeing at will and otherwise inescapable senses. Even if you do make it past the guards and wards, the Asmodeus's copy of the pact is itself encased in an enormous ruby.

In any case, I'd think the LG gods would know that attempting to assassinate Asmodeus might potentially be construed as a breach of the pact. That's why Asmodeus is so scary---the Universe NEEDS him.



Who is Levistus? (Never heard of him:smallfrown:)

Levistus is one of the nine Archdevils. He pissed off Asmodeus royally by killing his wife. He is currently imprisoned a mile deep in an iceberg in his layer of Hell.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 02:39 AM
Wow, thank you Aslan. That really helped explain a few things for me. So the universe needs Asmodeus becuase he is the punisher of evil souls? (Which some view as a good thing?, not regarding the punishment given)

So you're saying by destroying the Pact Primeval, and/or Asmodeus, significant, terrible events can occur?


Levistus is one of the nine Archdevils. He pissed off Asmodeus royally by killing his wife. He is currently imprisoned a mile deep in an iceberg in his layer of Hell.

So is that why there is Eight now?

I swear I read somewhere that his wife betrayed him, or was that another Archdevil?

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 02:49 AM
Wow, thank you Aslan. That really helped explain a few things for me. So the universe needs Asmodeus becuase he is the punisher of evil souls? (Which some view as a good thing?, not regarding the punishment given)

So you're saying by destroying the Pact Primeval, and/or Asmodeus, significant, terrible events can occur?



So is that why there is Eight now?

I swear I read somewhere that his wife betrayed him, or was that another Archdevil?

Asmodeus and his devils are, believe it or not, the Heavens's first line of defense against the chaos that the demons bring. When the cosmology was formed, it was basically law vs. chaos (the order of existence out of the chaos of nothingness) before it was good vs evil. Asmodeus's first job was to fight the demons, and he did it very, very well---mostly because he was fighting dirty like the demons.

Since his job helps preserve the cosmos by upholding order, the gods know that his job IS technically necessary, as loath as they are to admit it.

Destroying all three copies of the Pact would be impossible to do, but theoretically, it has the following implications:

1. Asmodeus's position as the hangman of the gods is forfeit. Asmodeus DOES NOT WANT.
2. Asmodeus's entitlement to Baator is forfeit. Again, Asmodeus DOES NOT WANT.
3. If there is no punishment, the law becomes a mockery. While we're only speaking in abstract, philosophical terms here, we know that in D&D, these forces are principles that govern the fabric of reality. An unraveling of law results in chaos, and chaos is not good for the continued existence of the universe. Imagine the laws of physics being repealed and you'll have a good idea of what I'm envisioning.

Regarding Levistus:
No, there still are Nine Archdevils, as he is still technically alive. If I'm not mistaken, the Eight are Pit Fiends who serve Bel, the weakest of the Nine Archdevils. They're his generals.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 02:57 AM
IIRC, I thought the Eight were each stationed on each layer of baator. Asmodeus being on Nessus. I understand the need to have Bel, and why others don't kill him already, but I had no idea that The Eight were his generals:smallconfused:? Seems almost ironic. So what can I do about sending my PCs into hell?

Edit: Is there now any point? Knowing that killing asmodeus would create unfathomable events to occur?

And I understand it may be improbable to destroy all the Pact Primevals, but I have 8 PCs (No healer so far though lol). Why would you say that?

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 03:14 AM
The Dark Eight are different from the Nine Archfiends; sorry if that was confusing.

The Nine are: Bel, Dispater, Mammon, Belial (who rules his layer jointly with his daughter Fernia), Glasya (Asmodeus's daughter), Baalzebul, Levistus, Mephistopheles, and Asmodeus. Each of these is a unique devil; the only one who actually looks like a Pit Fiend is Bel. Dispater, Mephistopheles, Levistus, Belial, Glasya and Asmodeus are relatively human-like in their regular forms. Baalzebul is a giant slug, and Mammon is humanoid with a serpent tail instead of legs--kind of like a salamander.

The Dark Eight are Bel's subordinates. They're advanced Pit Fiends. They actually like Bel, according to FC2, and so they're unlikely to plan to unseat him.

Anyway, if the PCs do want to destroy the Pacts, they're not only dealing with Hell. Heck, they're not only dealing with grunt devils---they're going to have to go up against Asmodeus himself here.

Asmodeus knows people will try to take it or destroy it. He likely has plans for this eventuality. In any case, Asmodeus does want to betray the good gods---he siphons soul energy to heal himself of the horrific injuries he sustained when the gods threw him out of heaven. Falling all the way to the bottom of Baator is very painful. He wants to shift the axis of the conflict from Law vs Chaos to Good vs Evil by making a deal with the demons. If this happens, he calculates that he could end up obliterating the Heavens.

Shademan
2009-12-10, 03:28 AM
hey, you're the DM. If you want asmodeus to be a evil bastard that crawled outta a cosmic pit to bring destruction and doom in a orderly fashion then so be it. send yer players at him!

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 03:28 AM
Yeah that flavor was really cool, but he still has some severe wounds that may never be healed. And yes, the PCs are well aware of the possibility of taking on Asmodeus.

What if Asmodeus already created an alignment with the Demons, and is now considering his invasion into the material plane, then to the Planes in which the Gods reside. (Oh I may even kill off most of the Gods, to make the crimes of Asmodeus even steeper)

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 03:30 AM
That sounds like a pretty good setup for an apocalyptic campaign. :smallbiggrin:

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 03:51 AM
That sounds like a pretty good setup for an apocalyptic campaign. :smallbiggrin:

Hmm, I can't determine whether or not that was sarcasm:smalltongue: So do you think it is a good idea or a bad one?

kpenguin
2009-12-10, 03:53 AM
Generally the use of ":smallbiggrin:" denotes actual approval. Sarcasm is usually followed with a ":smalltongue:" or a ":smallamused:" or even a ":smallyuk:"

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 04:29 AM
I really think it's a good idea. I refrain from sarcastic comments in general. In the end, you're the DM and if you really want that to happen in your game, it's your call. I wouldn't do it myself, but it's about your group, not mine.

Fizban
2009-12-10, 05:37 AM
In regards to hell being a big place: each of the 9 layers is it's own infinite plane. The Nine Hells of Baator isn't so much a city where you'll get attacked for being out of place as it is 9 separate planes that you have to pass through in order (unless you just plane shift to the layer you want). Each layer has a few noteworthy places, usually the ruling Archdevil's fortress, a big city, and a couple geographic features, and then the rest is just mostly ignored. The first layer, Avernus, is pretty much one big wasteland/battlefield, and getting attacked by Pit Fiends is only likely if you show up in the middle of the army or decide to join up with the Demons for the Blood War.

Since each layer is it's own infinite plane, and perfectly normal humanoids exist on each plane, it's very much possible to have the entire campaign in hell from level 1. The game would feel like an alternate setting, except instead of being in a whole different cosmology, you're actually just on the fringes of hell in the normal DnD cosmology. Now, I'm pretty sure most DM's don't run it that way, but there's nothing against it in the literature, and whenever there's a description of some big labyrinth or extraplanar dumping ground, the writers usually make a point of mentioning all the people that survived and started their own communities.

Regarding Levistus: Levistus still rules his layer as an Archdevil, at Asmodeus' whim. His gives orders via telepathy from within his ice prison, which his minions then carry out, and when Asmodeus has the big quarterly meeting he temporarily frees Levistus so he can be in the boardroom in person. Making a deal with Levistus is indeed pretty much anyone's first step in fighting the big A, though when you look at their stats you'd be hard pressed to see why: Levistus is a pushover compared to the Boss. Still, his armies are mostly loyal to him, so he's the easiest source of distraction. Nevermind that Asmodeus knows all this.

Someone had a great quote on this very situation, wish I'd bookmarked it. Goes something like: you show up on Nessus and there's a cart with wine, goblets, and a note saying "Back in a few, there's gluten-free crackers on the shelf, signed A."

bosssmiley
2009-12-10, 06:36 AM
Read Dante's Inferno, the first two books of Milton's Paradise Lost, Wayne Barlowe's God's Demon (what happens when a Lord of Hell repents?), and the Fiendish Codices (or better yet the Planescape material on the Lower Planes), and you're good to go.

The Pact Primeval seems to be little more than an attempt to have one's (monotheistic archfiend) cake while eating it (in a polytheistic universe). You might want to look up the DiceFreaks' conception of the Circle of Three. Basically Law had three aspects, these violently split into Asmodeus/Nessus, the 7th Heaven, and the gear spirits of Mechanus when the Circle touched primal Chaos. In effect Asmodeus is Lawful Evil, ganking him (if such is even possible...) tilts the universe out of whack.

Re: Fizban's comments on adventuring in Hell from level 1. Totally possible. Google "Gaming Den +High Adventure in the Lower Planes"

Eldan
2009-12-10, 07:14 AM
If you aren't unfriendly towards slightly older fluff, the AD&D Planescape books are generally excellent. For what you want, I'd recommend "Faces of Evil: The Fiends", for an in depth look at the main fiend races and their origins, and Planes of Law. These books can still be picked up cheaply as PDFs, I think. The fluff is not entirely compatible with the one in the Codex, but it's good and usually inspiring. There are also several adventures set in the hells, though I don't know much about them (Fires of Dis, The Deva Spark)

Cicciograna
2009-12-10, 07:48 AM
Leave Levistus to his fate, for he's doomed.

Mephistopheles is the guy you want to deal with.

Optimystik
2009-12-10, 08:01 AM
It's quite easy to send your PCs after Asmodeus without upsetting the Pact. Simply have him be up to something big, something that will upset the balance (it sounds like he already is, given that Kord and Bahamut are the only gods left.) Make him be about to bring the demons under his control. Make him about to transport the entire material plane into Baator. Have him come into possession of Orcus' stuff. Even some combination of the above. Basically, have HIM be the aggressor against the Pact, thinking he's found a loophole of some kind or even disregarding it altogether - your PCs then become its enforcers, trying to restore the status quo of the universe like a Kolyarut doom squad.

Eldan
2009-12-10, 08:07 AM
There was a thread I remember going on on the Planewalker forums long time ago, concerning what the Devils might do to shut down the Tanar'ri for good. Someone proposed a kind of artefact which made chaotic creatures on the same plane extremely lethargic, and dumping it on the plane of infinite portals, so that all the demons there would just sit around and do nothing most of the time. If Asmodeus did something like that, it coud get the Baatezu enough breathing space to actually attack other planes.

Also, a thing mentioned in Planescape: there are other lawful forces helping the hells, such as certain Archons and Modrons, as well as, potentially, the Harmonium, one of the Planescape factions. They do this because they think that the devils winning isn't as bad as the alternative.

TheDarkDM
2009-12-10, 08:36 AM
Concerning assassinating Asmodeus, there are some pertinent factors to take into account:

1) While the majority of devils are engaged in the Blood War or the various layers of Hell, Asmodeus has at his disposal five MILLION max hp Pit Fiends on reserve inside fortress Nessus. Were his existence to come under threat, he would be more than willing to unleash this damned army on your PC's.

2) Were your players to attempt to destroy the Pact Primeval, they would not simply be coming into conflict with Asmodeus and the devils, but also every other major force for Law in the multiverse, thereby alienating their best source of support against the lord of Hell.

3) While your players may approach their mission with skill, your statements as to their design seems to indicate a somewhat gung-ho approach. In such a case, the Hells will hit back, hard, with a military machine that has held back unceasing hordes of Demons since the beginning of time.

4) Even if your PC's begin at twentieth level, they will likely be under thirty by the time they face the big A. Now, Fiendish Codex II lists Asmodeus's aspect (a small sliver of his essence) as CR 27. The actual Asmodeus is likely far more powerful. Even if your PC's managed to take down the monstrosity that is Asmodeus' humanoid form, most sources agree that that is simply an advanced illusion. The real Asmodeus is a miles long serpent lying in the very deepest pit of Hell that bleeds maximum hit point Pit Fiends.:smalleek:

5) Even if Asmodeus himself seems an acceptable challenge, keep in mind that he can summon any Devil to his location. Thus, in a near fight your PC's will not be fighting Asmodeus, they'll be fighting every Lord of the Nine, as well as whatever other help Asmodeus feels like summoning.

As for Tiamat, it is true that her front gate is guarded by a wimpy CR 8 Devil. However, within her cavern is a nigh infinite divine realm. Within that realm dwell a horde of fiendish chromatic dragons, many of them of Wyrm age or older, all serving a dragon that has Divine Ranks. A daunting challenge, to be sure.

Now, if you want Asmodeus to be in control of the Demons as well, the entire landscape of your campaign changes. The Blood War is the only thing that has kept the forces of evil from literally drowning the upper planes in blood. We are talking about two literally infinite armies that have the experience of millenia of war behind them. Sending eight PC's against that wall of pure evil is like sending a cow into a meat grinder.

This is, of course, simply my interpretation.

Eldan
2009-12-10, 08:52 AM
Point 2, Corollary: The mediators of Mechanus are ****ing scary.

AslanCross
2009-12-10, 09:27 AM
Concerning assassinating Asmodeus, there are some pertinent factors to take into account:

1) While the majority of devils are engaged in the Blood War or the various layers of Hell, Asmodeus has at his disposal five MILLION max hp Pit Fiends on reserve inside fortress Nessus. Were his existence to come under threat, he would be more than willing to unleash this damned army on your PC's.



Corollary: According to Manual of the Planes, Asmodeus bleeds Pit Fiends.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 09:54 AM
I'm in favour of the 'take out the pact' route, actually, and I'll clue you in to my thinking.

There is a school of thought that says, if you act against Asmodeus and succeed, then you were meant to. So, if we take the desired goal of having PC's take out the pacts and journey to Nessus itself, then it leaves you with certain obvious plot points.

If Asmodeus has no further use for the pact primeval, then he must have already gotten what he wanted out of it. This likely means that he HAS healed, that the Demon princes have been forced back, subjugated or destroyed, and that he no longer fears those gods as remain.

So he has allowed them to see the benefit of breaking the pact, (ideally, the gods would know little of the above), and so enter the PC's on their 'righteous mission' to break Asmodeus's hold over the Gods.

The bit they all will have failed to notice is that it is the Pact that is restraining Asmodeus from direct hostilities against the Heavens. This, and nothing else.

The Pc's finally manage to plot, sneak, smash and crusade their way to Asmodeus's lair, fighting through the armies of Hell, only to find Asmodeus gone, the last pact unguarded. If you don't want Asmodeus to succeed, have no-one and nothing stopping them from destroying the last pact. If you are happy for Asmodeus to be suitably cunning, he should have been deliberately lured away by the PC's, preferably they have organised a betrayal with one of the nine, such as Levistus and have Asmodeus leave to deal with it, leaving the Crystal insanely heavily guarded, but juuust enough to challenge the party and maybe kill one or two of them.

Why else would he keep someone like Levistus around, if not exactly BECAUSE he can be trusted to betray you?

The campaign either ends with the Pc's leaving the final Pact in place, maintaining a fragile status quo, or ends with them being warmly congratulated and thanked by Asmodeus, who then leaves to crush the few remaining barriers to his goals and assume his position as Lord of All.

Maybe they get to be Generals in his army, after that, or some of the new lords of the 9. :smallcool:

Zanatos777
2009-12-10, 10:02 AM
I'm in favour of the 'take out the pact' route, actually, and I'll clue you in to my thinking.

There is a school of thought that says, if you act against Asmodeus and succeed, then you were meant to. So, if we take the desired goal of having PC's take out the pacts and journey to Nessus itself, then it leaves you with certain obvious plot points.

If Asmodeus has no further use for the pact primeval, then he must have already gotten what he wanted out of it. This likely means that he HAS healed, that the Demon princes have been forced back, subjugated or destroyed, and that he no longer fears those gods as remain.

So he has allowed them to see the benefit of breaking the pact, (ideally, the gods would know little of the above), and so enter the PC's on their 'righteous mission' to break Asmodeus's hold over the Gods.

The bit they all will have failed to notice is that it is the Pact that is restraining Asmodeus from direct hostilities against the Heavens. This, and nothing else.

The Pc's finally manage to plot, sneak, smash and crusade their way to Asmodeus's lair, fighting through the armies of Hell, only to find Asmodeus gone, the last pact unguarded. If you don't want Asmodeus to succeed, have no-one and nothing stopping them from destroying the last pact. If you are happy for Asmodeus to be suitably cunning, he should have been deliberately lured away by the PC's, preferably they have organised a betrayal with one of the nine, such as Levistus and have Asmodeus leave to deal with it, leaving the Crystal insanely heavily guarded, but juuust enough to challenge the party and maybe kill one or two of them.

Why else would he keep someone like Levistus around, if not exactly BECAUSE he can be trusted to betray you?

The campaign either ends with the Pc's leaving the final Pact in place, maintaining a fragile status quo, or ends with them being warmly congratulated and thanked by Asmodeus, who then leaves to crush the few remaining barriers to his goals and assume his position as Lord of All.

Maybe they get to be Generals in his army, after that, or some of the new lords of the 9. :smallcool:

Gotta be honest. That would be awesome.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-12-10, 10:43 AM
Someone had a great quote on this very situation, wish I'd bookmarked it. Goes something like: you show up on Nessus and there's a cart with wine, goblets, and a note saying "Back in a few, there's gluten-free crackers on the shelf, signed A."

That would be an anecdote from my epic campaign that I mentioned here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6483802&postcount=25).

ChakraChanter
2009-12-10, 11:56 PM
Wow, that's some great stuff. I know this may sound outrageous, but I was also thinking that Asmodeus took Tiamat as his wife. DarkDM you said quite a mouthful. Man, this sounds so awesome and I thank all of you but it seems that what I want to do would be improbable to complete with the PCs. I know I'm the Dm, and everyone's saying, "You're the DM, just make it happen" but as some of you have said, I just can't let certain things slide. It does make sense that Asmodeus would the best bodyguards in reality (a freaking army!). For to ignore that would remove some sense of Baator

Tiki Snakes - That sounds awesome. But if this were to be an awesome campaign, how do you think the PCs would feel if they found out at the end, after destroying the final Pact, to be tricked by the DM??

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-11, 12:11 AM
Wow, that's some great stuff. I know this may sound outrageous, but I was also thinking that Asmodeus took Tiamat as his wife. DarkDM you said quite a mouthful. Man, this sounds so awesome and I thank all of you but it seems that what I want to do would be improbable to complete with the PCs. I know I'm the Dm, and everyone's saying, "You're the DM, just make it happen" but as some of you have said, I just can't let certain things slide. It does make sense that Asmodeus would the best bodyguards in reality (a freaking army!). For to ignore that would remove some sense of Baator

Tiki Snakes - That sounds awesome. But if this were to be an awesome campaign, how do you think the PCs would feel if they found out at the end, after destroying the final Pact, to be tricked by the DM??

Well, it depends really. If they are the sort to appreciate it, trick the hell out of them. If they aren't, you leave the gapingly obvious clue that they've been set up by having Asmodeus leave his copy completely undefended. That gives them a chance to thwart it all at the last minute, but still feel clever that they figured it out.

Failing that, rule reality itself as the Generals of Asmodeus the over-god, I guess. :)

It depends very much on your players, and you know them better than we do.

It is Asmodeus, after all though. If they aren't looking for and expecting conspiracy, double meaning, outright treachery and/or set-ups, then they really should try rolling some knowledge checks, because they clearly haven't been introduced to the guy. :smallcool:

TheDarkDM
2009-12-11, 12:42 AM
Fun fact: Asmodeus once had a wife, Bensozia, with whom he fathered Glasya, current Lord of the Sixth. Levistus killed dear old Bensozia when she refused to betray Asmodeus, which is why the big L is currently sitting at the center of a block of black ice. Now, by all accounts Asmodeus' love for her was genuine, so if he took Tiamat as consort it would be a political pairing at best.

Now, as to your problem, I agree that it is entirely improbably for any group of PC's to actually defeat Asmodeus. However, I would consider it a major success to simply mildly inconvenience the man. I mean, on these forums we often speculate about slaying the odd demon lord or minor deity, but Asmodeus is another matter entirely. He is quite possibly the oldest form of evil in the Multiverse, and certainly the one with the most powerful minions. Where the Demons fight as often amongst themselves as the Devils, if he wanted Asmodeus could forge the entirety of Hell into a unified hammer to smash any opposition. Now, as DM you could alter whatever aspect of that you like, but the core fluff has built him up as a massive buttress of law and evil.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-11, 01:13 AM
Okay, thanks. Does Asmodeus have any brothers? Could Tiamat somehow become closer to Asmodeus family wise, such that they are now aligned with eachother. (I don't remember if Tiamat is Chaotic of Lawful)?

TheDarkDM
2009-12-11, 03:12 AM
While my knowledge of ye olde Nine Hells is far from perfect, I do not believe he has any family per se. The unique Devils are spawned from the very depths of hell, and while some of them are the result of infernal pairings (re Glasya), I believe Asmodeus is the one and only of that particular vein of hardened black hate.

As for Tiamat, she is LE, and would probably be too proud to stoop to being the consort of any one being. She's more the "have multiple fiendish Great Wyrms as consorts" kind of gal. :smalleek:

*edit* Just noticed the second part of your post, and Tiamat is already fairly chummy with the Devils (she was Lord of the First in old fluff). There are any number of platonic reasons for her to work with Asmodeus, with the principle one his ability to help her exterminate Bahamut and his breed.

The Tygre
2009-12-11, 04:20 AM
Have you checked out the Gates of Hell over at DiceFreaks yet? It's completely free and got well over 400 pages on Baator. It's kind of what made them famous.

BobVosh
2009-12-11, 05:30 AM
So does that mean pit fiends are white blood cells for Asmodeus? I feel sorry for the germs that fight his immune system. 4000 save or die from wish. Next round, more.

Anyway if you have Big Bad A trying to mess with the pact, make sure it is a loophole. Don't make it a breach of contract. He is LAWFUL evil.

hamishspence
2009-12-11, 05:34 AM
Its not clear from Fiendish Codex's body is miles-long, or just the canyon, thanks to the fact that he hit the layer at high speed.

While devils are Lawful as well as evil, one (Baalzebul) is famous for being "Lord of the Flies! Lord of the Lies!" and his cultists, Lawful Evil or otherwise, tend to be master liars.

So a little outright lying is not impossible for at least some devils- though souls obtained by lying have a chance of winning the trial to decide if Baator's claim on them is valid, if they ask for one.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-11, 08:47 AM
So does that mean pit fiends are white blood cells for Asmodeus? I feel sorry for the germs that fight his immune system. 4000 save or die from wish. Next round, more.

Anyway if you have Big Bad A trying to mess with the pact, make sure it is a loophole. Don't make it a breach of contract. He is LAWFUL evil.

If Asmodeus hasn't done it, he hasn't broke contract. It would be truly...unfortunate, were some gullible adventuring types led to believe that destroying such a document were the thing to do.

*sips wine*

Truly regrettable.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-17, 06:33 PM
Have you checked out the Gates of Hell over at DiceFreaks yet? It's completely free and got well over 400 pages on Baator. It's kind of what made them famous.

Do you have the link for that? I would find it very useful.

Volkov
2009-12-17, 07:28 PM
Don't do it, if you succeed the Tanar'ri will wipe out all reality. The Baatezu are the only force capable of keeping them in check. Not to mention that the inevitables will single you out and kill you for disrupting the cosmic order. You can't go and kill the personification of lawful evilness and not expect the forces of Mechanus coming after you, even as the Tanar'ri consume your universe and burn it to cinders.

Well it's either the Tanar'ri or the Yugoloths. And if the Yugoloths win, the fate of the universe would be far worse than if either the Baatezu or the Tanar'ri won. Far, far worse.

Samb
2009-12-17, 07:54 PM
I think Tiki's idea is the most in line with the current flavor. Amodeus has plans that span eons, for all we know he has already won the Blood wars and is just waiting for some powerful and famous band of "heroes" to destroy the Pact, and make it look real.

A high ranking tome (or throne) archon and Modron send the PCs to destroy the Pact so that they can alter their copies without Amodues vetoing it.

Then carry out Tiki's plot.

What they don't know is that both the archon and modron are guardians of their planes' copy of the Pact, and once Baator's copy is destroyed, the other two are destroyed shortly thereafter, releasing Amodues from his service as warden of evil souls. Maybe they have fallen, maybe they really think this is the way to stop Amodues's soul harvesting and corrupting (the famous "read the fine print" rule). Little do they know Amodues has enough power and has no need to harvest souls anymore.

After they defeat Amodues (or most likely his avatar/aspect) in a bloody finale (make sure a few of them die to make it look convincing), they see the real Amodues in his full glory. A "did you break your arm punching out Cthulhl" moment.

Maybe the big A will raise your PCs and send them to Mechanis or the seven heavens so they can at least have their revenge before the multiverse is flooded by the unified force of the Abyss and Baator. "Go and appease your wrath, it should take me a while to get to Celestia, hahaha!!!"

This setup a great sequel hook. Do they do as Amodues says and at least get their revenge knowing that they have no hope of beating Amodues? Or do they try it again, but this time with a bit more information?

Edge
2009-12-17, 08:16 PM
Do you have the link for that? I would find it very useful.

Here (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8).

It's worth mentioning that Dicefreak's version of the Nine Hells is somewhat different. At least two of the Lords of the Nine are different from standard D&D, and the CRs are higher across the board for them all. Asmodeus himself is CR 81, IIRC, and he's only an avatar for the true ruler of Hell.

Volkov
2009-12-17, 08:22 PM
I think Tiki's idea is the most in line with the current flavor. Amodeus has plans that span eons, for all we know he has already won the Blood wars and is just waiting for some powerful and famous band of "heroes" to destroy the Pact, and make it look real.

A high ranking tome (or throne) archon and Modron send the PCs to destroy the Pact so that they can alter their copies without Amodues vetoing it.

Then carry out Tiki's plot.

What they don't know is that both the archon and modron are guardians of their planes' copy of the Pact, and once Baator's copy is destroyed, the other two are destroyed shortly thereafter, releasing Amodues from his service as warden of evil souls. Maybe they have fallen, maybe they really think this is the way to stop Amodues's soul harvesting and corrupting (the famous "read the fine print" rule). Little do they know Amodues has enough power and has no need to harvest souls anymore.

After they defeat Amodues (or most likely his avatar/aspect) in a bloody finale (make sure a few of them die to make it look convincing), they see the real Amodues in his full glory. A "did you break your arm punching out Cthulhl" moment.

Maybe the big A will raise your PCs and send them to Mechanis or the seven heavens so they can at least have their revenge before the multiverse is flooded by the unified force of the Abyss and Baator. "Go and appease your wrath, it should take me a while to get to Celestia, hahaha!!!"

This setup a great sequel hook. Do they do as Amodues says and at least get their revenge knowing that they have no hope of beating Amodues? Or do they try it again, but this time with a bit more information?
Even Asmodeus is not as great as the General of Gehenna. The General already is divine, asmodeus is a mere outsider lord. If Asmodeus is weakened, the yugoloths will destroy him and take over, and all will feel the gloom of hades.

The Tygre
2009-12-17, 08:23 PM
Do you have the link for that? I would find it very useful.

Et Voila! (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8) And don't let the mods scare you; their bark is significantly worse than their bite.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-18, 01:38 AM
Don't do it, if you succeed the Tanar'ri will wipe out all reality. The Baatezu are the only force capable of keeping them in check. Not to mention that the inevitables will single you out and kill you for disrupting the cosmic order. You can't go and kill the personification of lawful evilness and not expect the forces of Mechanus coming after you, even as the Tanar'ri consume your universe and burn it to cinders.

Well it's either the Tanar'ri or the Yugoloths. And if the Yugoloths win, the fate of the universe would be far worse than if either the Baatezu or the Tanar'ri won. Far, far worse.

Wow, I have no idea what any of that stuff you mentioned is lol. What exactly are you talking about? And, if it is indeed a bad idea, what would be better?

Thank you Tyger, and everyone else. Your helo had been great so far, I just now need a reason for them to enter it. (Being called on by te Gods seems rather tacky)

Shadowbane
2009-12-18, 02:56 AM
Have them strike a deal with Levistus. They find a way to free him from his icy imprisonment and they get an ally, albeit a very traitorous one, against Asmodeus.

A thousand times yes.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 10:49 AM
Wow, I have no idea what any of that stuff you mentioned is lol. What exactly are you talking about? And, if it is indeed a bad idea, what would be better?

Thank you Tyger, and everyone else. Your helo had been great so far, I just now need a reason for them to enter it. (Being called on by te Gods seems rather tacky)

If you kill asmodeus, the nine hells collapse in the resulting fight over who gets the spot. The Tanar'ri can run unopposed, gain the support of the Yugoloths, and all reality dies and it would be all your fault.

Melamoto
2009-12-18, 11:05 AM
Edit: I will probable introduce them witnessing Baccob being killed by Tiamet (In human form) so they may want to go after her as well (I am aware that someone else made a forum specifically about battling Tiamet).

Blashphemy! The weakling Tiamat could never defeat the all mighty Boccob!

Volkov
2009-12-18, 11:16 AM
Blashphemy! The weakling Tiamat could never defeat the all mighty Boccob!

Not alone, but the combined forces of Tiamat, Falazure, and Garyx are far greater than Boccob.

Samb
2009-12-18, 11:18 AM
Even Asmodeus is not as great as the General of Gehenna. The General already is divine, asmodeus is a mere outsider lord. If Asmodeus is weakened, the yugoloths will destroy him and take over, and all will feel the gloom of hades.

Ummm what does what you say have anything to do with what I said? The PCs only think they weakened Amodues, when in reality he was never at risk or weakened in the place.

Also, the true nature or even the extant of Amodues' power is debateable. If he was one of the first angels, his power (which has only increased since his creation) would be comparable to that of a god's. Also, the gods of law allowed for soul harvesting since they didn't want to channel divine power towards such an evil endeavor but admitted the need for such power.

Gods gain power from people's beliefs, Amodues draws power from souls. And then there is the 2ed version which has Amodues as a primoridial being of law, literally the oldest being in the multverse. Greater in power than any god and not even needing belief or souls. This Amodues pretends to a "mere" outsider to make others underestatmate him.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 11:39 AM
Ummm what does what you say have anything to do with what I said? The PCs only think they weakened Amodues, when in reality he was never at risk or weakened in the place.

Also, the true nature or even the extant of Amodues' power is debateable. If he was one of the first angels, his power (which has only increased since his creation) would be comparable to that of a god's. Also, the gods of law allowed for soul harvesting since they didn't want to channel divine power towards such an evil endeavor but admitted the need for such power.

Gods gain power from people's beliefs, Amodues draws power from souls. And then there is the 2ed version which has Amodues as a primoridial being of law, literally the oldest being in the multverse. Greater in power than any god and not even needing belief or souls. This Amodues pretends to a "mere" outsider to make others underestatmate him.

The General is evil personified. Demogorgon and Asmodeus are mere pawns to him.

Samb
2009-12-18, 12:13 PM
The General is evil personified. Demogorgon and Asmodeus are mere pawns to him.

Meh, don't quote me if you're not going to read what I wrote.

I'm glad you like da General, but no one mentioned him, and he has nothing to do with what the OP asked for, therefore I saw no need to go off on your tangent.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 12:18 PM
Meh, don't quote me if you're not going to read what I wrote.

I'm glad you like da General, but no one mentioned him, and he has nothing to do with what the OP asked for, therefore I saw no need to go off on your tangent.

The instant Asmodeus ceases to be useful, he will be disposed of by the Yugoloths.

Samb
2009-12-18, 12:25 PM
The instant Asmodeus ceases to be useful, he will be disposed of by the Yugoloths.

I'm going to need a quote that says yugoloths run the lower planes, rather than just take your word for it. IIRC yugoloths have no real secret agenda in the Blood war other than making a quick buck. They certainly are manpulative but never on the scale that Amodues was ('read the fine print').

At least there are books and sources to back up my claims. Yours just consist of random one liners with no source material, which makes it hard to take your claims seriously.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 12:45 PM
I'm going to need a quote that says yugoloths run the lower planes, rather than just take your word for it. IIRC yugoloths have no real secret agenda in the Blood war other than making a quick buck. They certainly are manpulative but never on the scale that Amodues was ('read the fine print').

At least there are books and sources to back up my claims. Yours just consist of random one liners with no source material, which makes it hard to take your claims seriously.

The baernoloths created the Obyriths, who in turn created the Tanar'ri they created the ancient baatorians, who don't possess any connection to the baatezu, it is implied that the crawling city alone has enough yugoloths to defeat either the demons or the devils.

Samb
2009-12-18, 01:04 PM
The baatorians were either killed or enslaved by Amodues when he and his fallen angels took over the nine hells. You mentioned that Amodues was useful to them, which is no surprise as he keeps the forces of the Abyss at bay, which makes him useful for all of existance.

If da General had some secret use for Amodues, I have yet to hear of it, or that he is pulling the strings in the background. Again cite sources.

The yugoloths think they control the Blood Wars, and while the the crawling city has lots of yugoloths, it is also implied that the only thing keeping the demons of the Abyss at bay is their chaotic nature and Amodues. It is explicitly stated that demons far outnumber all other lower plane creatures and would ravage all of existance (including the gods) if not for the Blood war and the in-fighting that happens all the time in the Abyss.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-18, 01:14 PM
Yes, I have read that too (barely), but I don't understand the Pact Primeval.

I would love thoughts. I really need help on this on. I really want to show my players a great time!

The idea behind the Pact Primeval is that the Gods inadvertently created and allows for Hell's structure to exist. In the beginning, before Good and Evil there was only Law and Chaos, and all deities were creatures of Law while demons were creatures of Chaos.

Essentially, Asmodeus tricks the gods using their own beloved laws into legalizing the destruction of evil souls into magical power and damned soldiers. Asmodeus is presented as someone who abides by the laws flawlessly, but manipulates them to his own purposes. After all, the deities never imagined that he and his followers would attempt to damn souls via cults for a steady supply of power >; ).

Beelzebub1111
2009-12-18, 01:18 PM
Use the Book of Vile Darkness. They have the ACTUAL archdevils, not their avatars. Another point to Remember that Hell is Politics, and that there is communication between layers.

Samb
2009-12-18, 01:22 PM
The idea behind the Pact Primeval is that the Gods inadvertently created and allows for Hell's structure to exist. In the beginning, before Good and Evil there was only Law and Chaos, and all deities were creatures of Law while demons were creatures of Chaos.

Essentially, Asmodeus tricks the gods using their own beloved laws into legalizing the destruction of evil souls into magical power and damned soldiers. Asmodeus is presented as someone who abides by the laws flawlessly, but manipulates them to his own purposes. After all, the deities never imagined that he and his followers would attempt to damn souls via cults for a steady supply of power >; ).

When the lawful gods complained that Amodeus was purposely corrupting people to get more souls, he famously quoted: "read the fine print". And the gods shut up.

Why Celestia would want to destroy the Pact is to stop giving the devils legal rights of damned souls to Amodeus. Amodeus would want it out of the way to start a legal war with the upper planes, as another poster pointed out. Maybe he finally has enough "soul power" and doesn't need the Pact's hidden clause to provide power anymore. There is also a chance that he's already won the Blood wars, and only maintains a facade to put others off guard when in reality he is just waiting for the Pact to be destroyed. Enter epic PCs.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 01:44 PM
The baatorians were either killed or enslaved by Amodues when he and his fallen angels took over the nine hells. You mentioned that Amodues was useful to them, which is no surprise as he keeps the forces of the Abyss at bay, which makes him useful for all of existance.

If da General had some secret use for Amodues, I have yet to hear of it, or that he is pulling the strings in the background. Again cite sources.

The yugoloths think they control the Blood Wars, and while the the crawling city has lots of yugoloths, it is also implied that the only thing keeping the demons of the Abyss at bay is their chaotic nature and Amodues. It is explicitly stated that demons far outnumber all other lower plane creatures and would ravage all of existance (including the gods) if not for the Blood war and the in-fighting that happens all the time in the Abyss.
Would you expect the original evils to be anything less than the ultimate string pullers? If the yugoloths weren't so good at manipulation they'd be extinct. Rather, they fully control two planes, which is one better than either the demons or the devils.

Also, Asmodeus can't win the blood war as long as Demogorgon lives, it is stated Demogorgon knows many of Asmodeus's secrets, and quite possibly, his weak point.

Drogorn
2009-12-18, 01:56 PM
Another possible ally for the PCs would be Zargon. He should be rather ticked off at Asmodeus at being imprisoned for so long. This option, of course, has secondary issues associated with it. But why should they let a little thing like the fact that he's a god-killing abomination stop them from trying to enlist his assistance? :smallbiggrin:

Samb
2009-12-18, 02:12 PM
Would you expect the original evils to be anything less than the ultimate string pullers? If the yugoloths weren't so good at manipulation they'd be extinct. Rather, they fully control two planes, which is one better than either the demons or the devils.

Also, Asmodeus can't win the blood war as long as Demogorgon lives, it is stated Demogorgon knows many of Asmodeus's secrets, and quite possibly, his weak point.

I'm not sure if Hades counts as it is the main battlefield of the Blood wars. IMO having two nations fighting it out in my backyard is hardly "in control".

There is aprophcy that says the solders of the crawling city would be key to ending the war, but to think that they could take on the infinite armies of the Abyss on their own is a stretch.

I don't expect anything more or less of them even if they are the "original". The devils were once angels that kicked the yugoloths' ass in baator to take it over (source FC2). They only still exist because they are useful to the Blood war, and/or the Blood war prohits either the demons or devils from taking over Hades.

Yugoloths are not the only ones manipulating the Blood wars, even the upper realms offer indirect help to a side that seems to be losing. Because everyone knows that if the War ends so will the rest of existance.

Demogorgon= unwinnable Blood war is a mental leap on your part. Demogorgon doesn't even participate in the Blood wars, and the notion that he cares (both personas) is even more far-fetched. I also can't find a source that says he knows any secrets, least not a 3e source, please tell me where that is cited.

The General is divine? Not that it makes much of a difference as divity has little bearing on power ranks. Orcus killed two gods and he didn't even have his staff when he did such a feat (source: march of the Mordons).

Samb
2009-12-18, 02:14 PM
Another possible ally for the PCs would be Zargon. He should be rather ticked off at Asmodeus at being imprisoned for so long. This option, of course, has secondary issues associated with it. But why should they let a little thing like the fact that he's a god-killing abomination stop them from trying to enlist his assistance? :smallbiggrin:

Zargon is the perfect illutration of how bad ass Amodeus is. Amodeus single-handedily beat this thing up, when the gods were getting their ass handed to them.

Yes, Amodeus saved the world (again).

Volkov
2009-12-18, 03:48 PM
I'm not sure if Hades counts as it is the main battlefield of the Blood wars. IMO having two nations fighting it out in my backyard is hardly "in control".

There is aprophcy that says the solders of the crawling city would be key to ending the war, but to think that they could take on the infinite armies of the Abyss on their own is a stretch.

I don't expect anything more or less of them even if they are the "original". The devils were once angels that kicked the yugoloths' ass in baator to take it over (source FC2). They only still exist because they are useful to the Blood war, and/or the Blood war prohits either the demons or devils from taking over Hades.

Yugoloths are not the only ones manipulating the Blood wars, even the upper realms offer indirect help to a side that seems to be losing. Because everyone knows that if the War ends so will the rest of existance.

Demogorgon= unwinnable Blood war is a mental leap on your part. Demogorgon doesn't even participate in the Blood wars, and the notion that he cares (both personas) is even more far-fetched. I also can't find a source that says he knows any secrets, least not a 3e source, please tell me where that is cited.

The General is divine? Not that it makes much of a difference as divity has little bearing on power ranks. Orcus killed two gods and he didn't even have his staff when he did such a feat (source: march of the Mordons).

Manual of the planes.

Psychosis
2009-12-18, 04:39 PM
I've been reading this since some time last night, and it's probably worth mentioning that I've been part of a group that did something similar. Did we kill Asmodeus? God no, but that was never our goal. There's more than one way to beat a divine force of legal corruption.

The overall journey was similar to what you propose, in which we started at the first layer and trekked all the way to the ninth in an epic quest of goodness. We were not out to kill Asmodeus though, but rather to destroy a serious artifact that he had gotten ahold of. I forget the specifics of said artifact, but the overall implication was that it could seriously thin the innumerable forces of the Abyss and possibly grant the devils a stranglehold on the plane, allowing them to turn their attention elsewhere (such as, say, Celestials?) We were essentially told that this artifact would be operational in something like three months, and that we were to conduct a bloody crusade through Baator to infiltrate Asmodeus' crazy fortress thing and destroy it with another artifact meant for the task.

Three months seemed like a long time, but we went through hell just surviving, let alone keeping with that deadline. Our first violent encounter involved crossing through an in-progress demon/devil battle, in which we fled through a hellish warzone and had to hack our way through whatever decided to impede us. From there it only got harder. The DM openly admitted that he threw what he deemed to be "impossible encounters" at us just to see us plot our way out, and we crawled through the whole thing on the skin of our teeth.

We were level 19 (started at 13) when we finished, and the climax basically involved us making a mad dash as what seemed like every Pit Fiend in the place came down on us. Many "oh ****"s were had when we actually DID come face-to-face with Asmodeus (or his avatar I guess), but our last remaining part member managed to destroy the artifact before being ripped apart by the army of devils.

I guess my point is that you can have the same experience without trying to end universal laws. It's possible to fight Asmodeus, but that doesn't have to (and probably shouldn't) be the overall goal.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 05:21 PM
A surprise final boss should be the oinoloth. Who would come the instant asmodeus is beaten, kill him with the usual "You have outlived your usefulness" speech" and fight the party.

Drammel
2009-12-18, 05:26 PM
There's one point about Asmodeus that I find particularly useful when setting up a campaign about defeating him. At least half of the stories about Asmodeus (if not more) were probably made up and spread by Asmodeus himself.

Got a problem with him bleeding pit fiends? Of course he bleeds pit fiends, in the same way he can shoot bolts of lightening out of his arse. If you confront him and he says "strike me down and the universe will collapse", remember who you're talking too. He didn't become the Lord of Hell without a the cunning to sell refrigerators to Eskimos. If he can hoodwink the gods of law and good what are the odds that your mortal PCs have been made to believe something ridiculous? My point is that half the fun of a campaign in the Nine Hells is figuring out what are the lies and what are not. As DM you get to choose.

Another point that I'm surprised has only been brought up once in this thread is alliance with Mephistopheles. Out of the archdevils he's the only one that has said directly to Asmodeus that he will take his throne. This either means 1) Asmodeus is using him for some purpose to be determined later or 2) for whatever reason Asmodeus cannot defeat him. Outside of this however, Mephistopheles has been with Asmodeus since roughly The Beginning. I'd wager he would know more about defeating Asmodeus than anyone, simply due to the fact that he devotes all of his time and energy to it.

Then there's hellfire, of which Mephistopheles seems to be the only one to know how to make and control. That's a nice wild card there. A better wild card is the ancient city of Kintyre, (located in Cania) which Mephistopheles has been investigating. The place belonged to the original inhabitants of Baator before the devils set up shop. It begs the question "Why would Mephistopheles be so interested in it?" and more importantly "How did the gods miss the fact that Baator was populated before they gave it to the devils?" That right there is room for all sorts of DM intervention.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 05:32 PM
There's one point about Asmodeus that I find particularly useful when setting up a campaign about defeating him. At least half of the stories about Asmodeus (if not more) were probably made up and spread by Asmodeus himself.

Got a problem with him bleeding pit fiends? Of course he bleeds pit fiends, in the same way he can shoot bolts of lightening out of his arse. If you confront him and he says "strike me down and the universe will collapse", remember who you're talking too. He didn't become the Lord of Hell without a the cunning to sell refrigerators to Eskimos. If he can hoodwink the gods of law and good what are the odds that your mortal PCs have been made to believe something ridiculous? My point is that half the fun of a campaign in the Nine Hells is figuring out what are the lies and what are not. As DM you get to choose.

Another point that I'm surprised has only been brought up once in this thread is alliance with Mephistopheles. Out of the archdevils he's the only one that has said directly to Asmodeus that he will take his throne. This either means 1) Asmodeus is using him for some purpose to be determined later or 2) for whatever reason Asmodeus cannot defeat him. Outside of this however, Mephistopheles has been with Asmodeus since roughly The Beginning. I'd wager he would know more about defeating Asmodeus than anyone, simply due to the fact that he devotes all of his time and energy to it.

Then there's hellfire, of which Mephistopheles seems to be the only one to know how to make and control. That's a nice wild card there. A better wild card is the ancient city of Kintyre, (located in Cania) which Mephistopheles has been investigating. The place belonged to the original inhabitants of Baator before the devils set up shop. It begs the question "Why would Mephistopheles be so interested in it?" and more importantly "How did the gods miss the fact that Baator was populated before they gave it to the devils?" That right there is room for all sorts of DM intervention.
What do you think of the current Oinoloth coming in and finishing off Asmodeus, then taking on the party, with the Ruby rod in his hand.

Samb
2009-12-18, 06:38 PM
What do you think of the current Oinoloth coming in and finishing off Asmodeus, then taking on the party, with the Ruby rod in his hand.

I think it's far fetched. Nothing seems to indicate that such an impressive feat is doable by the current Oinoloth. The facts remain that the devils killed off the yugoloths originally living in Baator, and that they don't really present much of a threat. Plus there is a persistant rumor that Amodeus has an secret army the likes that pales anything anything seen on the side of law in the Blood war, what Amodeus is doing with such an ace in the hole is up for debate, but if true the PCs and yugoloths will have a hard time even surviving Neuss.

No one mentioned that in 4e, Amodues "won" and turned the Abyss into the elemental chaos. Pretty stupid in terms of flavor so take it how you will.

Psychosis
2009-12-18, 06:51 PM
What do you think of the current Oinoloth coming in and finishing off Asmodeus, then taking on the party, with the Ruby rod in his hand.
I'm gonna agree with Samb on this one, if for atmosphere than anything. I like the Yugoloths and all, but having any member of them Bad Boss freaking Asmodeus just comes off as a cheap attempt on a twist that nobody wants. If you are no a mission to kick Asmodeus' ass, and you had to literally go through hell to get to him, having him upstaged by some random guy from out of nowhere is mostly gonna annoy you.

Also all that stuff he said about a secret army. It certainly wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that the master of Baator might have something like that somewhere.

Samb
2009-12-18, 08:44 PM
There's one point about Asmodeus that I find particularly useful when setting up a campaign about defeating him. At least half of the stories about Asmodeus (if not more) were probably made up and spread by Asmodeus himself.

Got a problem with him bleeding pit fiends? Of course he bleeds pit fiends, in the same way he can shoot bolts of lightening out of his arse. If you confront him and he says "strike me down and the universe will collapse", remember who you're talking too. He didn't become the Lord of Hell without a the cunning to sell refrigerators to Eskimos. If he can hoodwink the gods of law and good what are the odds that your mortal PCs have been made to believe something ridiculous? My point is that half the fun of a campaign in the Nine Hells is figuring out what are the lies and what are not. As DM you get to choose.
Most of the rumors that he spreads are made so that other UNDERESTIMATE him. I'll take the 2ed Amodeus, who really did bleed pit fiends. In fact, he made himself out to be "mere devil lord" to hide the fact that he was a primordial serpent of law whose old wounds bleed the first devils (all with max'd stats and HP). Same with the 3ed Amodeus, the lord of the nine thought they could take him only to get pwned in one gesture. If what is known about Amodeus is any pattern, not only could the rumors be true, they might be much worse.



Another point that I'm surprised has only been brought up once in this thread is alliance with Mephistopheles. Out of the archdevils he's the only one that has said directly to Asmodeus that he will take his throne. This either means 1) Asmodeus is using him for some purpose to be determined later or 2) for whatever reason Asmodeus cannot defeat him. Outside of this however, Mephistopheles has been with Asmodeus since roughly The Beginning. I'd wager he would know more about defeating Asmodeus than anyone, simply due to the fact that he devotes all of his time and energy to it.

He knows more about getting pwned by Amodeus than anyone as the Recockening has shown. Mephistopheles might be cocky, but he's not dumb, after burned so badly it is doubtful he would go against Amodeus.

If the Recokening showed anyone anything, it's that Amodeus has loyalists everywhere.


Then there's hellfire, of which Mephistopheles seems to be the only one to know how to make and control. That's a nice wild card there. A better wild card is the ancient city of Kintyre, (located in Cania) which Mephistopheles has been investigating. The place belonged to the original inhabitants of Baator before the devils set up shop. It begs the question "Why would Mephistopheles be so interested in it?" and more importantly "How did the gods miss the fact that Baator was populated before they gave it to the devils?" That right there is room for all sorts of DM intervention.

As per FC2 Mephistopheles hopes hellfire will increase his power and maybe earn him a few cultists. Really that simple, according to BoVD, this is costing him quite a bit of investment in the form souls (hellish currency), and some say it will pay off in dividends in the form of more damned souls, while others say it will ruin him. Not sure if Mephistopheles would make a reliable ally while he is still consolidating his base, I mean why would he risk his plans and his research to mess with someone who effortlessly kicked his ass? Answer, he wouldn't.

The Baatorians were the race of yugoloths that were in Baator before the devils wiped them out to lay claim to it, or so the story goes. The Baator history doesn't even mention them.

Volkov
2009-12-18, 09:34 PM
I think it's far fetched. Nothing seems to indicate that such an impressive feat is doable by the current Oinoloth. The facts remain that the devils killed off the yugoloths originally living in Baator, and that they don't really present much of a threat. Plus there is a persistant rumor that Amodeus has an secret army the likes that pales anything anything seen on the side of law in the Blood war, what Amodeus is doing with such an ace in the hole is up for debate, but if true the PCs and yugoloths will have a hard time even surviving Neuss.

No one mentioned that in 4e, Amodues "won" and turned the Abyss into the elemental chaos. Pretty stupid in terms of flavor so take it how you will.

That's been retconned. The ancient baatorians and obyriths are the creations of the yugoloths, they are not yugoloths themselves.

Haven
2009-12-18, 09:49 PM
He knows more about getting pwned by Amodeus than anyone as the Recockening

The what!?

BTW when did the "Pact Primeval" become canon? I don't recall it in Planescape, but then I never had the boxed set about the lawful outer planes.

Gralamin
2009-12-18, 10:03 PM
That's been retconned. The ancient baatorians and obyriths are the creations of the yugoloths, they are not yugoloths themselves.

Got a source for that?


The what!?

BTW when did the "Pact Primeval" become canon? I don't recall it in Planescape, but then I never had the boxed set about the lawful outer planes.

It became canon when Fiendish Codex 2 came out.

The Reckoning was the event where the Lords of the Nine tried to usurp Asmodeous in a combined effort. They lost, big time.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-12-18, 11:26 PM
It became canon when Fiendish Codex 2 came out.

Yes, the story was told right after the disclaimer it might just be another rumor spread by the devils themselves. :smallwink: Believe with caution.


The Reckoning was the event where the Lords of the Nine tried to usurp Asmodeous in a combined effort. They lost, big time.

Big as in 'Asmodeus defeated several Lords at once, without being hurt'.

Frankly, if Asmodeus doesn't outsmart your players at LEAST once, then you aren't playing him right. This is literally a being who doesn't just out-Batman Batman, he then proceeds to reset the encounter and DO IT AGAIN. Cause he can and it wouldn't be hard.

...Alright, fanboying over the Prince of Nessus over, Asmodeus is a serious serious threat. In all likelihood, your PCs should be focused on thwarting his current scheme (or trying to) instead trying to take Asmodeus down himself. That's almost nigh impossible with all the contingency plans he has in place. That is IF the form he presents is his true form. That's IF the thing the PC's is fighting isn't just a really good illusion/clone, that's IF they don't beat him and awaken the Serpent.


And personally? As a PC? If I found myself outsmarted by Asmodeus and then offered a place as one of the new Lords of the Nine (because others were dead and it was a 'reward' for helping him accomplish his goals), I'd still be damn satisfied with the campaign. There ain't no shame in losing to the best, not if you made a good showing for yourself.

Haven
2009-12-18, 11:31 PM
It became canon when Fiendish Codex 2 came out.

Ah, okay. Thanks. (Also, "Reckoning" isn't quite what he wrote...:smalleek:)

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-19, 08:52 AM
That's been retconned. The ancient baatorians and obyriths are the creations of the yugoloths, they are not yugoloths themselves.

I'm pretty sure that the Ancient Baatorians are only ever really hinted at, for the most part, and as such, cannot be said to be definitively anything. The Obyriths, as far as I can scratch up on them, are said to pre-date mortal life and the gods. No mention of Yugoloths at all in relation to that, really.

The Yugoloths however, (who aren't as far as I know the ancient baatorians, to be fair), seem to be descended from Baernoloths. These are said to have created Yugoloths and Demodands. Nothing much else is mentioned, and there is no mention of Obyrith or Ancient Baator at all in either the main Wikipedia entries for Yugoloths et all, nor the Forgotten Realms ones.

So, yeah. Source of claims? :)

Samb
2009-12-19, 10:45 AM
So, yeah. Source of claims? :)
You and wikipedia..... can't you just get the real stuff? Watch, one day the person you are debating will edit the entry and you'll have to eat your words because anyone can edit wiki. Anyway, I went and checked manual of the planes and could not find anything on the roots of the yugoloth, the General being divine, or the Demogoron holds any secrets on Amodues (or even cares about anything beyond his war with Orcus and Graz't). Can't even find anything in 2ed sources like "into hell" or "blood war" or the planescape campaign setting.

There is a prophecy that the Crawling city would play a pivotal role in bringing the Blood war to a definitive conclusion. Which could mean many things. They join up with either side and help them win, or they beat both sides in one fell swoop. The former seems more likely given the current evidence. I'd love for Volkov to prove me wrong but without sources what you say are basically houserules.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-12-19, 02:56 PM
You and wikipedia..... can't you just get the real stuff? Watch, one day the person you are debating will edit the entry and you'll have to eat your words because anyone can edit wiki. Anyway, I went and checked manual of the planes and could not find anything on the roots of the yugoloth, the General being divine, or the Demogoron holds any secrets on Amodues (or even cares about anything beyond his war with Orcus and Graz't). Can't even find anything in 2ed sources like "into hell" or "blood war" or the planescape campaign setting.

Demogorgon has secrets about lots of things via his nature as the first tanar'ri and his oracle/ally Dagon, the Lord of Shadowsea and one of the oldest demon princes in existence.

Chances are likely that Demogorgon knows secrets about Asmodeus' plans or even himself. It gets a bit screwy if they are true or not.

Samb
2009-12-19, 05:12 PM
Demogorgon has secrets about lots of things via his nature as the first tanar'ri and his oracle/ally Dagon, the Lord of Shadowsea and one of the oldest demon princes in existence.

Chances are likely that Demogorgon knows secrets about Asmodeus' plans or even himself. It gets a bit screwy if they are true or not.

We are talking about ancient beings of vast power and knowledge. I would hope they all know some secrets. What I want is a source stating that Demogoron has dirt on Amodues and not just speculation, because without a source that's all it is, however reasonable it is.

The fact is in all the entries about both of them I have not seen any direct connection or interaction between them. Volkov's claims that "the Blood war can't end if Demogoron lives" is a very bold statement that I have found zero proof to believe. Volkov himself has not been able to provide a source for anything he has said so far.

Drogorn
2009-12-19, 06:30 PM
"Nobody who tells the story of Asmodeus’s “true” form
lives more than 24 hours after repeating it aloud. But dusty
scrolls in hard-to-reach libraries (such as Demogorgon’s
citadel in the Abyss) yet record this knowledge. Unless it
is pure fancy, of course."

From the end of the Nine Hells entry in Manual of the Planes.

Samb
2009-12-19, 10:17 PM
"Nobody who tells the story of Asmodeus’s “true” form
lives more than 24 hours after repeating it aloud. But dusty
scrolls in hard-to-reach libraries (such as Demogorgon’s
citadel in the Abyss) yet record this knowledge. Unless it
is pure fancy, of course."

From the end of the Nine Hells entry in Manual of the Planes.

Ahh thank you for that, but what I can gather from that is Demogoron's library is an example of a hard to reach scroll. Also Volkov made a bold statement, that Demogoron was the key to Amodeus winning the Blood war. After what you cited, I can't say I see the connection.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-12-19, 11:12 PM
We are talking about ancient beings of vast power and knowledge. I would hope they all know some secrets. What I want is a source stating that Demogoron has dirt on Amodues and not just speculation, because without a source that's all it is, however reasonable it is.

The problem with that is that any fluff material on devils (as of Fiendish Codex II) could very well be devil propoganda. It was probably just a scheme by WotC to be able to change the Nine Hells however they want and say the previous information was 'wrong intel', but I actually like the idea behind it.


The fact is in all the entries about both of them I have not seen any direct connection or interaction between them. Volkov's claims that "the Blood war can't end if Demogoron lives" is a very bold statement that I have found zero proof to believe. Volkov himself has not been able to provide a source for anything he has said so far.

Aside from the Manual of the Planes excerpt already quoted? There isn't one. There doesn't really need to be. More importantly, Demogorgon doesn't give a damn about the Blood War, he only commits enough troops to maintain appearances (Demonomicon of Iggwilv) that he does. For that matter Asmodeus himself doesn't seem to care that much about the Blood War, the only demon lords/archdevils who do are the one's who use it as the means to advance themselves or use it as an excuse not to be demoted. Bel comes to mind. Without the Blood War, he'd almost certainly be killed because he's the only arch-devil who devotes any serious amount of time to it. Despite common belief, every devil and every demon does not spend every moment thinking about the Blood War. Aside from those directly fighting in it, and even then!

Samb
2009-12-20, 02:19 AM
Devils either spend their time corrupting souls or fight the Blood war. Bel's situation is special in that he needs to do both. The most powerful demons don't even fight the Blood war. I never said they did. And I knew Demogoron is one of them.

I'm just going to assume Volkov doesn't have any sources as he has been unable to produce any other than line in the manuals of the planes, which contradicts itself at the end.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-20, 03:01 AM
Ok, well gathering all of your advice, or at least that of which I have skimmed (I will read more tomorrow), I'm going to try this.

Asmodeus has won the Blood War, and forged an [impossible] alliance with the Demons. He continues to fight the Blood War to fool everyone else in believing that it still goes on. More flavor needed.
...
...When the players first arrive in Baator, Demons will rush the PCs, telling them how to 'stop' (Weaken) Asmodeus by destroying the Pact Primeval so Asmodeus will no longer be able to sap the energy of souls to further heal his eternal wounds. More Flavor needed...

It's a start at least. Where is Charon located in Baator, and Cerberus as well? Does Charon require legal documents from the PCs, or can he be bargained with?

hamishspence
2009-12-20, 05:28 AM
Charon is statted out as a yugoloth in Dungeon magazine 149.

He is always to be found on the River Styx, which passes through most of the Lower Planes, not just Baator.

I'm not sure if there are any WoTC stats for him or Cerberus.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-12-20, 10:09 AM
Charon is statted out as a yugoloth in Dungeon magazine 149.

He is always to be found on the River Styx, which passes through most of the Lower Planes, not just Baator.

I'm not sure if there are any WoTC stats for him or Cerberus.

There isn't for Cereberus (nor have I even heard of Cerberus being in the default Greyhawk-lite campaign setting), but there are stats for Charon...in Dungeon Magazine 149. Those ARE his stats.

More importantly, Charon or his apprentices can be discovered anywhere along the Styx which runs through most of the lower planes (obviously not EVERY level of the Abyss and I don't think it reaches ALL of the Nine Hells but close).

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-20, 12:17 PM
You and wikipedia..... can't you just get the real stuff? Watch, one day the person you are debating will edit the entry and you'll have to eat your words because anyone can edit wiki.

I'm not buying manuals just to debate with people on the internet, Samb. :smallsmile:
Tempting though that is.
Cause, you know;
http://www.coderjournal.com/uploads/2008/05/duty_calls.png

I treat Wikipedia (and judicious use of specialist wiki's) like asking a whole load of nerds. Sure, it's dangerously unreliable and often contradictory at times, but if you know what you're doing it's pretty informative.

My actual-manual based knowledge is largely limited to 4th ed, where there is no General of Gehenna of note, Asmodeus is a very powerful God (who may or may not have summerarily ended the blood war in a single act because it had served it's purpose. Forgotten Realm version, perhaps?)
Though who knows, maybe the mysterious/woefully under-developed General will get a footnote or even a whole sidebar in the 'Planes Below' book.
:smallcool:

hamishspence
2009-12-20, 12:40 PM
There isn't for Cereberus (nor have I even heard of Cerberus being in the default Greyhawk-lite campaign setting), but there are stats for Charon...in Dungeon Magazine 149. Those ARE his stats.

Well, they're about as official as you can get outside of WoTC- for some people, Paizo material "doesn't count"

I'd say they are good stats though.

On Asmodeus and the Blood War, in 4E Manual of the Planes- it is apparently still going on. And was triggered by him carving a chunk off the Heart of the Abyss, and using it to murder his master and achieve godhood.

the 4E Faerun version however, has him only achieve godhood after the Spellplague, by slaying Azuth, and banishing the Abyss into the Elemental Chaos.

ChakraChanter
2009-12-20, 01:55 PM
I'm just asking for what you guys think (Whether it goes along with the true mythology or not is a different issue) and what more I can add. Did most of you miss my other quesetions as well?:smalleek:

What can Cerberus be compared to, how can I compose his stats such that it reflects him well, and where should I place him.

hamishspence
2009-12-20, 03:50 PM
Cerberus in MoTP is described as simply Gargantuan, 3-headed, and made from the squirming bodies of petitioners.

Some undead might fit (Charnel Hound?), with the Multiheaded template from Savage Species, and maybe a few other upgrades, such as Monster of Legend (MM2).

urkthegurk
2009-12-20, 05:25 PM
Gods gain power from people's beliefs, Amodues draws power from souls. And then there is the 2ed version which has Amodues as a primoridial being of law, literally the oldest being in the multverse. Greater in power than any god and not even needing belief or souls. This Amodues pretends to a "mere" outsider to make others underestatmate him.

I understood that the 'outsider' was his avatar form, not the miles-long serpent that bleeds pit fiends. I don't care what that is, god or not, it bleeds pit fiends.

Asmodeus is very likely older than this incarnation of the universe, wounded in a battle before its founding, and he offered his service to the current gods against the demons. They didn't know what he was, or that he was from beyond their multiverse. But when they found out, they cast him into the pit. They couldn't kill him though, so they made him sign the Pact Primeval. I imagine it was Boccob who discovered the Devil's true nature. Baator is as much a prison as a fortress, Asmodeus was forced to bow before the Pact. But even though the document seems very one-sided in favour of the gods, it may as well have been written by the Satan. It is exactly what he wants.

Asmodeus is bound by the pact, but if his wounds are healed, he does not need it. The Blood War rages on, but recent events may have disposed DemoGorgon, and Orcus is too much like a Devil to be anything but Asmodeus's catspaw.

I think then that Grazzt would make an excellent patron for the PCs. He's more interested in power than in evil, and he likes humans too much to destroy the material plane. As the prince of thieves, he's the perfect antithesis of Asmodeus, and sneaky enough that he could beat him. For one thing, Grazzt has been forced to admit he has flaws, imprisoned by a mortal woman, while Asmodeus is the most powerful being in existence, or would be were he whole.

As for siblings, it is hinted that he does have some relatives. The Serpent, Vecna's patron, is one, although that might merely be a figment of Vecna's imagination. If it is a real creature, then it is basically an avatar of all magic, its true form is the prime source from which all arcane secrets flow. The Lady of Pain is another, she is apparently more powerful than a Greater God, but she is similarly bound. There may be others.

I think the fact that these creatures are so powerful is what limits them, she's locked in the Cage because she is the Cage, the Serpent is bound into Magic because it is Magic. I also think that is Asmodeus were to escape Hell, the others would escape similarly. They are perhaps bound also by the Pact Primeval, although why simply being his siblings would do this is uncertain. It is a little unfair, but perhaps there was an older promise between them to share one another's burdens', so if one is bound then they all must be.

This is just my interpretation of what I've read, but I'm quite fond of it, and think it might work well in you world.


EDIT: also, think about what the big A wants. Sure, destroy the multiverse, blah de blah blah, but why? Sure, he'd do it for kicks, but its a lot of work to do something just for kicks.

Could he still be fighting a war that began before the universe, and once he escapes from this place that is his prison, he and his siblings will have recovered there wounds and be ready for battle? Perhaps he had that in mind when he entered the multiverse in the first place. Perhaps he had a hand in creating it. The Gods must have wanted advice.

In any case, destroying the Material Plane and the Realms of the Gods is just the first step. These places are 'infinite', so even if the fabric of one place collapses, there's still other places to go to and conquer. Or just throw a really swell party.

D_Lord
2009-12-20, 06:35 PM
The only thing I can see that could beat A is the Far Realms. You know Zargon, who beat gods, guess what, A couldn't fully kill him. Now Zargon waas a Baatorian or created by daelkyrs. Ether way very powerfull, yes A beat him, but couldn't kill him. And seen a little about Thoon, or other things in there, A could be destoryed easyly there, but all this is mostly guessing because little is known about the True A, or about the Far Realm, but both are powerful.

Halna LeGavilk
2009-12-20, 06:37 PM
I think it might be prudent to have the characters check out whatever lies in Chronias. It would make for a cool campaign to have whatever being or force that exists there to be unleashed, especially after the Pact Primeval is destroyed, or what have you. Maybe the characters are turned into Avatars of Holiness, or defenders of the Cosmic Order, or whatnot.

Samb
2009-12-20, 06:38 PM
Ok, well gathering all of your advice, or at least that of which I have skimmed (I will read more tomorrow), I'm going to try this.

Asmodeus has won the Blood War, and forged an [impossible] alliance with the Demons. He continues to fight the Blood War to fool everyone else in believing that it still goes on. More flavor needed.
No need for more flavor, Amodeus is such a cunning bastard that has schemes that run eons long.



...
...When the players first arrive in Baator, Demons will rush the PCs, telling them how to 'stop' (Weaken) Asmodeus by destroying the Pact Primeval so Asmodeus will no longer be able to sap the energy of souls to further heal his eternal wounds. More Flavor needed...
Hmm what are the PCs and demons doing in Baator? Who is to say the PCs don't attack the demons? They have no reason to trust a demon, it is doubtful they would have gotten to such high levels trusting demons and devils. A better way may be that they are recruited by a misguided/fallen archon or angel. The fact that the person recruiting them is a good being will put them at ease of duplicity.



It's a start at least. Where is Charon located in Baator, and Cerberus as well? Does Charon require legal documents from the PCs, or can he be bargained with?
Charon is a ferryman that is a yugoloth. He will take PCs to anywhere the river Styx runs (like the nine hells), for a price. It could be anything of value.

Cereberus...... Amodeus does have kennels that breed hell hounds, but none of them are huge in size or have 3 heads..... Sorry can't help you on this one.

Natael
2009-12-22, 12:09 AM
I've been thinking of leading my Red Hand of Doom game into something like that. Have the red hand as a manipulation of Tiamat, having her send out troops to reignite a recently stopped humanoid/goblinoid war, and hopefully having the PCs ignite some wars elsewhere, before learning it was a plan to "culminate the final number of souls Asmo needs to end the war (which of course he has already effectively won)." At which point Asmo tricks the gods into getting some adventurers to destroy the pact, allowing him free. Maybe end the game around level 24 with them fighting the FC2 version of Asmo after he is weakened from some divine sacrifices or something like that.

Of course, the game would end with Asmo fulfilling some goal, like being full healed and banished from the known multiverse as he was actually trapped there after fleeing a previous battle and using souls to heal up, with not even the surviving gods knowing what he plans next.

Only issue I have is that while I'm familiar with Hell, the blood war, and the gods, I don't know much about the other elemental planes, but I suppose reading through manual of the planes would be nice.

I remember having a huge amount of fun running A Paladin in Hell back in my 2E days, with the party getting a ship that was made out of a plane of hell. Wish I still had the adventure, as I could easily just adapt it to 3.5, but oh well.

TheDarkDM
2009-12-22, 01:28 AM
Well, as far as Cerberus' role as guardian of the gate is concerned, that role is filled by lady Tiamat. Yes, the god of evil dragons acts as the gatekeeper for the Nine Hells because Asmodeus pays her to.

The Tygre
2009-12-22, 03:10 AM
*Ahem*

I believe Asmodeus already has a guardian Hell-hound in his service. And a cat, at that. Ladies and gentlemen, Infernacan and Hulgatt (http://dicefreaks.superforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=5&start=44).