PDA

View Full Version : DM Needs Dragon Help!



goken04
2009-12-09, 08:11 PM
I'm in over my head! I've only ever DMed for one game at 15th level (or higher) and I'm about to DM my 2nd. My first was when my players just started playing and barely knew how to build a character, much less optimize it, at that level. But that is not the case this time around.

My player is playing his first legitimate 15th level character. When he said he wanted to go uber-wizard, I didn't think he had the resources. But this jerk (who I'm actually pretty proud of, as I've been his only real DM, so it's good to see him play so smart) went out and did his research! He's built a fantastic uber-wizard of the Dragon-slaying variety and I'm impressed. But I've NEVER DMed a dragon (Well, I did for a SINGLE ROOM of a 4-session dungeon crawl, but it was my 2nd game ever and I had NO idea...!). I need all the tips, tricks, and resources I can get! There's gotta be a handbook out there somewhere!

Help me do dragons justice.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 08:19 PM
Well, first off all, what sources do you have access to? That will change the answers quite a bit.

As for basic tactics, strafing works well if they're landbound. Assuming that he's not, though, charges can still work, especially if the dragon casts antimagic field. As this comic says, [uel=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html] Fascinating, it seems you cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile, pointy-eared monkey. While I? I am still a Dragon.[/url]

goken04
2009-12-09, 08:22 PM
Well, first off all, what sources do you have access to? That will change the answers quite a bit.

As for basic tactics, strafing works well if they're landbound. Assuming that he's not, though, charges can still work, especially if the dragon casts antimagic field. As this comic says, [uel=http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html] Fascinating, it seems you cease to be a mighty wizard and become a fragile, pointy-eared monkey. While I? I am still a Dragon.[/url]

I have access to most 3.5 WotC splat books. I don't use much third party stuff.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 08:26 PM
Okay. Can you give a bit more info on the dragon(CR, if possible type and age)? Or more info on the wizard build?

That said, Dragon Magic has some Amazing spells for sorcerers(and therefore dragons), as does the Draconomicon.

kemmotar
2009-12-09, 08:36 PM
One possibility is to use terrain to your favour. Dragon lairs are not just cave, they're the place where a magical creature with mighty powers keeps its treasure safe and goes to rest...It can look like a cave but it's going to be deeper than you ever expected, there will be traps, the dragon's lackeys and a number of things to entertain the PCs. Wear them down and don't let them rest to recover spells.

Also, keep in mind that the wizard will probably be targeting the dragon's touch AC, so pump that with buffs and/or items...metabreath feats to take advantage of terrain.

For example, everyone knows a dragon's breath is usually a cone (or at least the appropriate kind for the particular dragon). If your dragon has a cone breath attack, take a metabreath feat to make it a line and put the PCs in a narrow corridor. Anti magic fields were also mentioned.

Sanctum spell metamagic might actually be useful...
Maze spell, hidden teleportation circles, trap/separate the PCs...

They'll obviously be preped for a dragon encounter, so throw at them things they won't expect, non draconic disciples etc.

Limit their resources, close down the exits...

goken04
2009-12-09, 09:05 PM
Okay. Can you give a bit more info on the dragon(CR, if possible type and age)? Or more info on the wizard build?

That said, Dragon Magic has some Amazing spells for sorcerers(and therefore dragons), as does the Draconomicon.

Mea culpa. It will be two dragons, I'm looking at putting them around CR 14 each. I want a red and green one (it's a christmas game) and they are magically bound in servitude to the BBEG.

Slayn82
2009-12-09, 09:12 PM
Some general points

Well, first Dragons have blindsight, so low level spells like fog can be very usefull for prevent line of sight of the enemy, or sneak attacks (any kind of chance of failure due to bad visibility can prevent this), and some are imune to fire or poisons (so they can fill a room with fire, toxic gases and contact poisons without problem).

They have good movement, and since staying in one place usually ends with the Dragon surrounded, and since their manouvering is bad, i suggest that they either move on land with expeditious retreat or swim, or it casts some form of fly or enhance fly manouvering spell. If the nest has narrow corridors, the Dragon can prevent to be flanked, and have traps or devices that could colapse the corridor to damage the enemies inside while it retreats to safety, also blocking line of sight.

Displacement is also a good spell to use, if only because along with illusions, can get the party to spend resources against the empty air. Allowing the Dragon to recharge its breath weapon.

The real thing to have in mind is that a dragon should not be caught unprepared in his nest. A red dragon of CR 17 has caster lvl 11. If it doesnt have some minion to help, its nest will be full of traps, so if someone enter it against the Dragon's will, have a dispel magic trap - or better yet, dispelling screens and bestow curse traps (the curses are not dispelled by dispell magic or the dispelling screens).

Also, summoning traps, those are very usefull for emergencies, to delay the party, or just because you as the malevolent DM feels like trowing mobs at them. Just have the Dragon moving to a pillar or other key point, and consider that its going off. Usually the dragon will choose something that isnt affected by its breath weapons, or are very dificult for the PCs to get around.

Its said that a wizard with craft contingent spell can be very dificult to beat. Well, keep in mind someone with craft wondrous item is even worse when someone attack his home turf, because they can craft as many wondrous items/traps as you (DM) wish, they are just static. And those traps can include buffs.

Edit: A particulary evil/nasty BBEG could make a trap with Tenser's Transformation and Stoneskin for his Dragons, for instance. Now fight that.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 09:15 PM
What's his awesome wizard build? We can't help you build a challenging but possible encounter if we don't know how "uber" his build is. If it's as much as you claim, two CR 14s aren't going to be enough for a level 15.

goken04
2009-12-09, 09:30 PM
What's his awesome wizard build? We can't help you build a challenging but possible encounter if we don't know how "uber" his build is. If it's as much as you claim, two CR 14s aren't going to be enough for a level 15.

Ask and ye shall receive.

Wizard 5
Focused Specialist 3
Paragnostic Apostle 2
Abjurant Champion 2
Archmage 3

Attribute Score
Str 14
Dex 16
Con 22
Int 30
Wis 8
Cha 8


Spells

Level Name
1 Protection from Evil
1 Familiar Pocket
1 Shield
1 Nerveskitter
1 Ray of Enfeeblement
1 Ray of Clumsiness
1 Grease
1 Comprehend Languages
1 Mage Armor
2 Resist Energy
2 Scale Weakening
2 Rope Trick
2 Knock
2 Web
2 Glitterdust
2 See Invisibilty
2 Create Magic Tattoo
3 Magic Weapon, Greater
3 Mage Armor, Greater
3 Arcane Sight
3 Anticipate Teleportation
3 Dispel Magic
3 Phantom Steed
3 Haste
3 Stinking Cloud
3 Antidragon Aura
4 Fear
4 Celerity
4 Dimensional Anchor
4 Evard's Black Tentacles
5 Control Winds
5 Channeled Lifetheft
5 Teleport
5 Overland Flight
6 Resistance, Superior
6 Dispel Magic, Greater
6 Freezing Fog
6 Imbue familiar with Spell ability
7 Antimagic Ray
7 Waves of Exhaustion
7 Avasculate
7 Teleport, Greater
8 Maze
8 Mind Blank
8 Plane Shift, Greater


Feats
Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Insightful Reflexes
Quicken Spell
Easy Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
Spell Focus (Necromancy)
Cloudy Conjuration
Bonus Feats
Improved Initiative
Combat Casting
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Alertness


Class Abilities
Improved Initiative-Wizard lvl 1
Familiar-Rat
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Expanded Spellbook-1 extra conjuration spell of up to 3rd level
Greater Spell Focus
Mind over Matter-AC bonuses given by spells you cast increased by 2; HP, Hardness of items you create increased by 2
Penetrating Awareness-+1 to CL for SR, Dispell Checks
Abjurant Armor-whenever you cast an abjuration spell that gives you an armor or shield bonus to AC, increase that bonus by your abjurant champion level
Extended Abjuration-Abjuration spells you cast are extended without an increase in casting time or spell level
Swift Abjuration-Abjuration spells of up to 1/2 your abjurant champion level (rounded up) are quickened for free
Spell-like ability: Avasculate 2/day this ability costs one 5th lvl slot and one 7th lvl slot
Mastery of Shaping The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.
Spell-like ability: Waves of Exhaustion 2/day this ability costs one 5th lvl slot and one 7th lvl slot
Chosen of Bahamut-Immune to fear affects
Arcane sight, Permanencied
See invisibility, Permanencied
Dragonborn (Mind)-Immunity to paralysis, magic sleep effects, Darkvision 120 feet, Low-light vision 4x, blindsense 30 feet

I haven't approved any of his build yet, so if there's something I should consider banning, let me know.

I was considering making them part of the BBEG fight (originally, before a character made a dragon-slayer, that was their purpose) mixed in with about four other monsters, which is why I said CR 14. However, if you think I should up the CR and put them by themselves, i can do that too.

I'm not looking to counter everything he's prepared for. I just want to make it challenging and interesting.

Assassin89
2009-12-09, 09:36 PM
Aside from using the abilities of the dragon, the dragons should also attempt to use the environment to their advantage.

For example, a dragon sees several people walking on a rope bridge. What does he do? He cuts the bridge and the people crossing the bridge take 1d6 per 10 feet fallen, unless they have feather fall or some way to avoid falling.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 09:36 PM
Easy Metamagic is Dragon magazine material, and there is an official 3.5 feat (practical metamagic) that is exactly the same but with harsher requirements, and it's still strong. Ban easy metamagic. Doesn't look that amazing as far as builds go, though. What is he even specializing in?

EDIT: Also, what race is he, and what are his items? Just those few things aren't enough to get the full idea of what he is doing.

EDIT X2: Remember that abjurant champion doesn't apply any of it's benefits to mage armor, and that all the benefits it gives can be defeated by touch attacks. As for increasing it's touch AC: Scintillating scales is an awesome dragon spell.

Tavar
2009-12-09, 09:45 PM
Focused specialist is a wizard variant: you can't take both it and wizard at the same time.

goken04
2009-12-09, 09:53 PM
Focused specialist is a wizard variant: you can't take both it and wizard at the same time.

Haha, I didn't even catch that!

EDIT: I have been informed by the player that he meant Master Specialist. That's what I get for just copy+pasting.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 09:54 PM
Haha, I didn't even catch that!

Maybe he meant master specialist? That's pretty good, although he really should enter it at level 3.

goken04
2009-12-09, 09:57 PM
Maybe he meant master specialist? That's pretty good, although he really should enter it at level 3.

Taking a wizard variant so that he can take Combat Casting as a bonus feat at fifth level to qualify him for abjurant champion. As Master Specialist is just filler levels to him, the feat conservation was more important.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-09, 10:14 PM
If you have access to Dragons of Eberron the Loredrake archetype might be a good idea, it is cheesy when used in conjunctions with dragonwrougt (sp?) Kobolds; but if you use in a dragon.....
Oh it gives a +2 to sorcerer levels at the cost of changing the Hit die from d12 to d10

Also I am not sure if it is a good spell but animate breath I think from the spell compendium it animates your breath as the equivalent of a fire elemental just the elemental of your breath.

And before I forget you might want the check the Shadow Dragon it puts negative levels with its breath weapon... I believe it is in Races of the Dragon

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-09, 11:31 PM
I would give the BBEG three dragons: red, white, and green.

The dragons should have their own minions: a variation of Tucker's kobolds.

Make them all level 5 kobolds (make them the online update, so they get Slight Build), and use Races of the Dragon, Dragon Magic, and The Draconomicon to build them. Still make them primarily sneaky bastards, but give them a few other boosts. Mostly a permanent unhallow effect with dimension lock over the whole complex that renews itself each round (so no teleportation or rope tricks. Rule that there is a leaden layer under whatever you've constructed the lair from, which blocks teleportative effects.

Get sneaky with use of terrain on both the kobolds' parts and on the dragons'. Have a few kobold dispel specialists (and damage specialists) readying actions to neutralize feather falls and make flight a headache for the PCs in the final showdown with the dragons, to retain the dragons' motility superiority (but don't get overzealous and completely neutralize the wizard's actions during the combat). Find some way to make the dragons immune to ability damage (as the wizard can probably find a way to make shivering touch something other than a [cold] spell). Have some kobold archers available to lay down cover fire while the dragons are strafing attacks, spells, and breath weapons (give the dragons plenty of room to fly around inside, the Flyby Attack feat, and cover on either side of their strafing range).

Use mirror image so there appear to be 20+ dragons that the party is fighting. Note that the images can be in adjacent spaces rather than in the dragons' spaces, meaning that you can have 7 or 8 images that precede each dragon in their strafing runs. Any readied actions will likely hit an image. (Each round, have the dragons be in a different spot in the line of images, but never the first in line, for obvious reasons.)

Wind walls and control wind to knock around PC flyers into walls and to blow away solid/acid fogs and the like.

Use disorienting illusions (even 1st level silent images can be incredibly effective if used well).

Get clever and force your players to think outside the box. Tell them it's going to be difficult, and let them get away with cheap tricks to win, but don't give them an obvious out (and don't allow obvious abuses, such as infinite wishes and simulacra and such).

goken04
2009-12-10, 03:06 PM
Here's what I've decided for the Encounter:

Fey-Kissed (Book of Templates, I just took it for the +2 CHA. I gave the PCs all a free +1 LA Template, so I'm giving the same to some monsters. I added to the template the +2 CL and dropping his HD to d10 that someone mentioned was part of another template because I liked it and don't have that book.) Mature Adult Green Dragon named Sauer.

Half-Elemental (Air) Adult Red Dragon named Feuer. Yes this gives him cold immunity, yes I am a mean, mean DM.

After their introduction with the BBEG (Trust me, the steps have been taken to insure no battle will take place), They will be seen guarding the BBEG's fortress along with an evilly enchanted Gargantuan Christmas Treant (17 HD). Feuer is the Beefcake, he'll be doing what he can to get full-attack actions and staying out of range. Sauer is the caster. Hits with a breath weapon and hides in the icy waters surroundering the BBEG's fortress. From the water, he can cast spells to buff Feuer/himself and debuff the party. All while they get whomped by the Treant.

Any more tips/feats/spells/strategem will be much appreciated. Your help has already been valuable!

goken04
2009-12-10, 10:58 PM
Update: Feuer- Extra Spell (Lion's Pounce(Ranger 2, SpC133)). Sprinkle liberally with Extra Spell Slot. Shock Trooper/Leap Attack to taste.

I'm glad they'll probably kill it in the first round.

AslanCross
2009-12-11, 05:54 AM
1. Never land the dragon. Keep it in the air. Air superiority is your friend. Dragons are very fast flyers, and with Haste, they can outrun almost anything the PCs can throw at them. Draconomicon has a lot of information about aerial combat.

2. Scintillating Scales. Heck, have it on a WAND. It's only a level 2 spell. That way if he dispels it, you can keep reactivating it.

3. Flyby Attack + Awesome Blow. Throw the PCs around.

4. Dragons are not stupid. They like to fight on their own terms, so make sure the terrain is to the dragon's advantage. A red dragon should fight over an active volcanic crater. A blue dragon should fight either in the scorching desert (its natural habitat), or on a tall, craggy outcropping with a thunderstorm raging around it. Aquatic dragons (black, gold, bronze) should fight underwater, using their swim speed to outmaneuver the enemies.

It's a bit harder for greens, but what I'd do is have the dragon skulk around in the forest, using concealment and magic to prevent the PCs from targeting it.

5. Never ever forget: Dragons have blindsense and have phenomenal senses.