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Talbot
2009-12-10, 12:14 AM
So, I've more or less figured out how I'm going to build my Factotum Detective character (except for race, but I have it narrowed down to two, and I'll decide after I see how i roll). However, I've realized I'm going to have a spare feat hanging around, and I got what I think is a pretty good idea.

Leadership. My followers will be my "contacts" (I think the DM will be cool with this), mostly experts (informants) and maybe some warriors (inside men in the castle/town watch/police).

But I need help building my cohort. I know some DMs hate abuse of Leadership, but I'm not planning on making him abusive. I basically just want him to be good at two or three really specific things. If my character is in the vein of Phillip Marlowe, he'd be more in the vein of, say, Marv from Sin City. He's going to be my younger/less experienced partner/possibly protege. RP wise he's likely to be either my Dumb Muscle/Strong Silent Type, or a hotblooded amateur with potential. I plan to only actually bring him along about half the time, sending him on fact-finding/spying/protect the witness type missions the other half so he doesn't eat up very much spotlight. I *think* I want to make him Warforged, if only so I can call him "Noirbot", but I'm not totally married to that.

What I want him to be able to do either 2-3 of the following really well, or all of it pretty well:
*Grappling (you hold him, I hit him)
-Alternatively (but less ideally), I'd be fine with him being a ranged combat specialist, but I don't want him to be both for RP reasons.
*Unarmed damage (but not a monk for RP/alignment reasons).
-See note about range above
*Some detective-ish skills, but he doesn't have to be great at that many of them. I'm thinking Intimidate, Gather Information, Urban Tracking, and maybe a couple of ranks in Sense Motive, Search, and Spot, and possibly Hide and Move Silent if he has the skill points hanging around.
*Damage sponge
*I'd love some Improvised Weapon bad-assery, if possible. Not sure how doable that is, though.
*Either Tripping/Disarming/Sundering.
*I'd prefer full BAB and a high Fort save (since my guy will have 3/4 BAB and a cruddy Fort Save), but I can live without if it gets me more of the other stuff.

That said, I'm not quite sure HOW to build him. I have a few thoughts:

*Feat-Rogue
-Has the skill points
-Fighter bonus feats let him snag some grappling and tripping/disarming/sundering pretty easily, with probably enough left over to up his skill ranks/pick up some of the Eberron investigative feats and/or Urban Tracking.
-Sneak Attack fits in pretty well with what I want from him.

*Thug Fighter
-Has some skill points
-Bonus feats, again, let him pick up what he needs, and he can get Urban Tracking.
-More HP
-Full Base Attack, higher Fort

Of course, neither of those are particularly fleshed out, and I'm sure there's something better out there... and I figure the Playground probably knows what and where. Any and all help appreciated.

Yukitsu
2009-12-10, 12:27 AM
I'd personally go with an urban ranger who uses the grapple feats. Full BAB, plenty of skill points in the right places, and can get some pretty good bonuses if you make his favoured enemy the criminal organization of the city. Take the variant that gets extra feats instead of spellcasting.

He's got better HD than the rogue, and more skills in the right places than the fighter, bonuses to skills against criminals, is better at grappling than the rogue. He gets urban tracking for free, and you could have him wield a pair of billy clubs as near improvised weapons for when you want a guy alive.

Talbot
2009-12-10, 12:29 AM
I'd personally go with an urban ranger who uses the grapple feats. Full BAB, plenty of skill points in the right places, and can get some pretty good bonuses if you make his favoured enemy the criminal organization of the city. Take the variant that gets extra feats instead of spellcasting.

He's got better HD than the rogue, and more skills in the right places than the fighter, bonuses to skills against criminals, is better at grappling than the rogue. He gets urban tracking for free, and you could have him wield a pair of billy clubs as near improvised weapons for when you want a guy alive.

The only problem with that otherwise excellent idea is that there's already and Urban Ranger in the party and I don't want to step on his toes any more than I already am (by making two urban-ish characters who will both likely have Urban Tracking).

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-10, 12:36 AM
The cityscape alternate class features for barbarian are excellent, and will probably be good for your cohort. You can find them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Barbarian has full bab, good fort, d12 hd, and better skillpoints than fighter.

If you want a slightly more skilled protege, mixing rogue with urban-style barbarian will get you a nice, well-rounded cohort. Use the fighter feat variation from unearthed arcana and grab a couple bonus feats (improved unarmed strike and improved grapple). Barbarian 2/Feat Rogue 2 will be a great start to a kick ass character.


Feat Suggestion:

Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Extra Rage
Intimidate Rage
Superior Unarmed Strike

Looks like a nice, hot-tempered street fighter with a lot to learn.

EDIT:

Trade Rogue Trapfinding for Urban Track. According to dungeonscape, track and trapfinding are comparable for a trade, and urban track is swappable with track.

Grappling will be as useful or more useful than tripping, sundering or disarming in almost every case, so I wouldn't worry about it. Giving opponents -2 to almost everything via intimidating range is much more valuable. Though, if you insist on extra combat tricks, you have the feats to start the power attack or combat expertise feat trees if you don't mind dumping the rage feats.

Yukitsu
2009-12-10, 12:37 AM
Well that does present some problems then. :smallwink:

Well, if he's going the dumb muscle route, a barbarian could be a viable build for him, if you don't mind changing the flavour from wilderness brute to a city type brute. This is one of those situations where giving him that one level of rogue first with able learner, then taking him barb up the rest of the way (or into a PRC) could work. I'd use feat rogue in this case, because 1 feat can make a big difference, while 1d6 wouldn't.

Edit: ninjad.

cupkeyk
2009-12-10, 12:46 AM
No one has suggested a doctor? Doctors tend to accompany detectives. Sherlock and Watson and uhh Batman and Blue Beetle (lolz, okay not really). D00d from NYPD Blue and CSI New York... or something.

Draz74
2009-12-10, 12:56 AM
Is Psychic Warrior an option? It's the best base class for Grappling. It's got good Fortitude and, with the Vigor power, is a great damage sponge. It's not so good with investigative skills, but if you go into the Slayer PrC, at least Spot/Listen/Sense Motive become available. Ask the DM if he can use Urban Tracking instead of Track to qualify for Slayer. Claws of the Beast can be sort of like improvised weapon awesomeness (no, I don't actually need a weapon, thanks!).

Yukitsu
2009-12-10, 12:58 AM
I dunno. Cohorts shouldn't ever be as effective as the characters in my opinion. That sort of build is the kind that has a good chance of overshadowing others.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-10, 01:09 AM
I dunno. Cohorts shouldn't ever be as effective as the characters in my opinion. That sort of build is the kind that has a good chance of overshadowing others.Both factotum and psychic warrior are smack-dab in the middle of tier 3. The cohort will be lower level, so unless you optimize him more or are thrust into situations more in line with the psychic warrior's abilities (not likely since you're a friggin' factotum), it's not something I'd worry about.

Fcannon
2009-12-10, 01:15 AM
If you do go with Warforged, remember that they have a Slam natural attack for that unarmed angle you were talking about. If you don't mind spending some cash on him, buy him a Battlefist, which increases the slam damage and should look quite intimidating.

Yukitsu
2009-12-10, 01:16 AM
Both factotum and psychic warrior are smack-dab in the middle of tier 3. The cohort will be lower level, so unless you optimize him more or are thrust into situations more in line with the psychic warrior's abilities (not likely since you're a friggin' factotum), it's not something I'd worry about.

I was referring more to the build presented, which is a pretty high end psychic warrior build overshadowing the urban ranger, which is IIRC around 5.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-10, 01:18 AM
I was referring more to the build presented, which is a pretty high end psychic warrior build overshadowing the urban ranger, which is IIRC around 5.Two powers and a feat constitute a 'high end build'?

Yukitsu
2009-12-10, 01:28 AM
Two powers and a feat constitute a 'high end build'?

Compared to an urban ranger? Yes.

Talbot
2009-12-10, 01:28 AM
The Urban Ranger rolled poorly at character Gen and somehow manages to roll 1s about 40% of the time, so overshadowing him (especially because our DM is brutal about fumbles) is a real concern.

I'd prefer to avoid Psychic/Magicky classes if possible. Right now, Feat Rogue/Urban Barb looks like the way to go, and I think Urban Barb loses Rage so the feat-tree shouldn't be a big issue.

Haven
2009-12-10, 01:33 AM
A Warblade could work. Decent skillpoints, d12 HD, full BAB, good fortitude. Strikes can be initiated either unarmed or with any melee weapon (for the improvised win), and the right selection of maneuvers lets him do a great job at sundering or disarming.

BRC
2009-12-10, 01:39 AM
The Cohort to a Detective?

Truly, my home brewed Doctor class is the only thematically appropriate option.

Fizban
2009-12-10, 01:57 AM
I think Urban Barb loses Rage so the feat-tree shouldn't be a big issue.

Nope. He can trade it for Ferocity though: Immediate action and boosts dex instead of con. Also drops ranged attack, which is fine since you don't want ranged mixing with grapple. Should be at the same link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Combining Intimidating rage with an immediate action rage is classic, and is only one step away from Imperious Command and the Barbarian's form of Celerity, though that gets a little too effective again.

Myrmex
2009-12-10, 02:15 AM
Maybe the unarmed swordsage variant? You get skills, unarmed strikes, and don't have to be a monk.


Both factotum and psychic warrior are smack-dab in the middle of tier 3. The cohort will be lower level, so unless you optimize him more or are thrust into situations more in line with the psychic warrior's abilities (not likely since you're a friggin' factotum), it's not something I'd worry about.

It really depends on the build. Paladin is typically T5, but with the proper race choice, it's T0.

A well built psychic warrior in the upper echelons of T3 is going to dramatically overshadow an Urban Ranger (T4) with mediocre optimization. An Urban Ranger with good optimization will be upper T3.

Talbot
2009-12-10, 05:33 AM
A few thoughts from the OP....

* No Psychic Warrior; for a variety of reasons, I'd like to keep the character's power source somewhat mundane. Additionally, I'd like have him be minimally complex so it doesn't take forever to level up picking out spells/powers. This also makes the ToB classes less ideal, though I could still be sold on those. I also see the character as less of a trained expert type combat badass (you know, the kind of guy who knows stances and strikes), and more as a brawler who's good at fighting because he's big and he does a lot of it.

*Urban Barbarian with a splash of Feat Rogue seems to be the way to go. Love to get either full BAB or full Fort out of that somehow, but we can't always have our cake and eat it too. Perhaps the DM will let me up the Barb's skill points and add a few key skills to the class list in exchange for weapon proficiencies and trap sense and/or let me trade the Rogue's trap abilities, Ref Save, weapon proficiencies, and a few skills off the class skill list for Fort and BAB... does that sound like a reasonable request, or is it somehow unbalanced?

*Are there any good PrCs I should have in mind for if he lives long enough?

*As far as overshadowing the Urban Ranger, I don't mind if the cohort does one or two things significantly better than he does (damage, accuracy, survivability, skills, useful class abilities), I just don't want him to dominate him at everything. Having him fight unarmed should go a long ways towards keeping his damage output reasonable, and the lack of spells evens the playing field somewhat right out of the gate, and being of lower level he's pretty much guaranteed to have lower spot and listen. I think any of the (non-Urban Ranger) ideas suggested so far could work without making the UR seem extraneous.

Hunter Noventa
2009-12-10, 06:53 AM
I agree with the unarmed swordsage idea. Avoid the Shadow Hand and Desert Wind schools and he's pretty mundane, and has a nice selection of skills. He'd probably want to focus on Stone Dragon and Setting Sun, the implacable man and grapple fiend schools of manuvers.

Ryumaru
2009-12-10, 07:02 AM
* No Psychic Warrior; for a variety of reasons, I'd like to keep the character's power source somewhat mundane. Additionally, I'd like have him be minimally complex so it doesn't take forever to level up picking out spells/powers. This also makes the ToB classes less ideal, though I could still be sold on those. I also see the character as less of a trained expert type combat badass (you know, the kind of guy who knows stances and strikes), and more as a brawler who's good at fighting because he's big and he does a lot of it.

I thought 3/4 -was- someone who's 'good at fighting, but not expertly trained and awesome'? Most 3/4th classes I know have few weapon proficiencies (like Cleric) to represent that understand how to fight, but not to an amazing degree. 'Brawler who's big and knows what to do' sounds pretty much to me like Barbarian with high Strength (better to hit), medium BAB, Improved Unarmed Strike/Superior Unarmed Strike and Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)


*Urban Barbarian with a splash of Feat Rogue seems to be the way to go. Love to get either full BAB or full Fort out of that somehow, but we can't always have our cake and eat it too. Perhaps the DM will let me up the Barb's skill points and add a few key skills to the class list in exchange for weapon proficiencies and trap sense and/or let me trade the Rogue's trap abilities, Ref Save, weapon proficiencies, and a few skills off the class skill list for Fort and BAB... does that sound like a reasonable request, or is it somehow unbalanced?


Seems kind of reasonable, except the BAB for weapons deal; trading in a bunch of weapon proficiencies you're never going to use for better BAB just reminds me of the munchkinning flaws brought up ('I'll take this -2 to melee attack for my Wizard, and take a free metamagic feat!'). I'm not familiar with urban Barbarian, but doesn't the standard Barbarian already have decent skill points for a full BAB heavy hitter, good abilities, and Intimidate, Sense Motive, etc.? Just seems all this would end up with you overshadowing the guy a ton, if he's as inferior with rolls and such as you say he is.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-10, 10:54 AM
Tattooed Monk jumps to mind (even if it is medium BAB again). The class has a very solid skill list, will improve your unarmed strike and AC, grant fast movement and slow fall, plus give you a fair selection of abilities.

You could boost strength and dex even further, get some good skill bonuses, pick up a form of smite or some limited healing. Just one option. You already meet most of the prereqs.

Really, just sticking with barbarian will be pretty kind to you. Urban Barb actually gets more good class features as it levels up, unlike regular barb.

Talbot
2009-12-10, 03:07 PM
Ok... so let's say my character is level 10 (likely to be whennish he shows up in the campaign). That makes my Cohort level 8 (I'll have decent Cha). Right now, I'm thinking:

Urban Barb 4/Feat Rogue 4 (First level in Feat Rogue for the Skill Points)



That nets me:
7 BAB
+5 to all Saves
72 + 11*Int Mod Skill Points
4 d12 and 4d6 HD
3 Fighter Bonus Feats
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Evasion
Trap Finding and Trap Sense
3 "normal" feats
2 "flaw" feats

Potentially Trade Out (DM Discretion):
Trapfinding, Trap Sense, Evasion, Weapon Proficiencies, and either Ref or Will Saves for either Higher HD for the Rogue side, Skill Points for the Barb Side, Urban Tracking, and/or improved Fort/BAB for the Rogue Side.

Assuming no Trade-Out and a +1 Int Mod, Feat and Skill Setup would be:

Intimidate: 11 Ranks
Spot: 10 Ranks
Search: 10 Ranks
Listen: 11 Ranks
Gather Information: 9 Ranks
Hide: 11 Ranks
Move Silent: 11 Ranks
Disguise: 11 Ranks

Feats:
Flaw 1) Mithril Fluidity
Flaw 2) Improved Damage Reduction
Normal 1) Mithril Body
Rogue 1) Improved Unarmed Strike
Rogue 2): Improved Grapple
Normal 3):Improved Natural Attack (1d6)
Rogue 4): Improved Natural Attack (1d8)
Normal 6): Improved Natural Attack (2d6)

I could also swap out some of the Warforged Feats for the Sundering or Tripping tree.



I'm not so good with ToB, so how would you guys build an Unarmed Swordsage or Warblade? The DM is kind of a **** about multiclassing, so please keep builds to a maximum of two classes.

Edit: Bear Totem Urban Barb + Feat Rogue may be a good idea too, as it gives me both Fortitude and Grapple Boosts.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-10, 03:20 PM
Why take improved natural attack three times when you could take superior unarmed strike and have 1d8 damage (that will increase to 2d6 on its own eventually)? Is upgrading from 1d8 to 2d6 really worth 2 feats for you?

Talbot
2009-12-10, 03:39 PM
I didn't realize that Improved Unarmed Strike improved in that fashion. When does it bump up? Does it stop there, or does it keep improving? I was planning to take a few more Improved Natural Weapons as he leveled up to eventually have him dealing a pretty respectable amount of damage, but if Unarmed Strike is that much more efficient I'd be much better off teaching him to Charge/Reduce Damage/Trip/Sunder/spend more levels in Barb.

Edit: After poking around a bit, it seems like Superior Unarmed Strike + Battlefist is the way to go, but I'm having a hard time calculating exactly how it would stack/what damage it would be doing... does it use the Monk progression from PHB1, or something else?

Fixx
2009-12-10, 04:24 PM
You can try the Vigilante prestige class from song and silence, not exactly what you described but worth looking into it or modifying it.
Not the most powerful class but definately fun to play.

edit: unless this is 4th edition?, i dont know what factotum means sry (ive only played 3e and 3.5)

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-10, 04:56 PM
Where's Battlefist located? I haven't heard of that feat before. Superior Unarmed Strike is in the Tome of Battle if you want to look at that.

Talbot
2009-12-10, 05:33 PM
Battle Fist is an add-on for Warforged in the Eberron Campaign setting.

Build options:

Urban Barb/Feat Rogue- explained above

Bear Totem Urban Barb/Feat Rogue- roughly as above

Unarmed Warblade- need help

Unarmed Swordsage- need help