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elliott20
2009-12-10, 02:23 AM
I don't have my ToB book in front of me right now, but I'm pretty sure that while Reshar is mentioned all the way throughout, we never actually see a character sheet for him.

I wonder how the board here would stat him up. Also, do you guys think he was the first master of nine?

Draz74
2009-12-10, 02:27 AM
No, he's not in the book.

A number of people have come up with builds that try to get all nine Level 9 maneuvers by Level 20 (using a human), and have traditionally named their efforts "Reshar."

Doing so is really not very hard if ToB items that teach you a maneuver are allowed; conversely, I'm not sure it's possible at all if such items are off-limits (barring other extreme cheese, such as Dark Chaos Shuffle).

Of course all such attempts involve the Master of Nine PrC. :smallsmile:

elliott20
2009-12-10, 02:39 AM
Well, I was hoping to get a more, how shall we say, "definitive" sheet on him because of this little project idea we have going on in the homebrew section. Simply put, I want to try to establish everything we know about Reshar, and try to see if we can at least pin down a general story, if not his more precise stats.

elliott20
2009-12-10, 10:07 AM
hmm.... typing Reshar into the search engine only turns up 4 threads, and none of them mention the build. I'll have a look google.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-10, 12:19 PM
hmm.... typing Reshar into the search engine only turns up 4 threads, and none of them mention the build. I'll have a look google.

Apparently, the original thread got swept into the abyss of the internet. Luckily, someone managed to save the information before this happened and copypasta'd it into the Tome of Battle for Dummies thread on BG.

Relevant Info in spoiler tags:





Master of Nine
- Mastery of Nine: ready at start of day from as many disciplines as possible to maximize bonus, then spend 5 minutes changing them as desired.
- Becoming Reshar: True Mastery of the Nine Swords (http://"http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344") by Gideon_Gideonson access to all 9 9th level maneuvers

Link is dead now that the forums got cleaned out. I grabbed what I could from the Google cache:



Gideon_Gideonson
07-31-07, 06:59 PM
With a little bit of clever multiclassing, you can indeed get every 9th level maneuver.

To begin:

Essentials
Human
Good-aligned
Unarmed Swordsage variant

Stats:
There are no required stats for this build...rather, it depends on your style of adept. Still, like all melee characters, it benefits from Str, Con, and Dex. Int is also recommended due to the MotN's requirement of 4 discipline skills.

A decent 28 point buy would be as follows:

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 8

Essential Items:
1 of all the novice maneuver granting items (2 of Diamond mind, which, as its a ring, is possible). This effectively removes a prerequisite maneuver. :D

That means that the qualifications for 9th level maneuvers are as follows:

4 Desert Wind
2 Devoted Spirit
2 Diamond Mind
3 Iron Heart
4 Setting Sun
4 Shadow Hand
0 Stone Dragon
3 Tiger Claw
3 White Raven

Feats
1: Improved Initiative
1: Adaptive Style
3: Blind-Fight
6: Martial Stance (Iron Heart)
9: Martial Study (Iron Heart)
15: Martial Study (Iron Heart)
18: Martial Stude (Iron Heart)

The Build:
Swordsage 5/Shadow Sun Ninja 9/MotN 5/Crusader 1

Combat-wise you're a bit short, with a +12 Base Attack Bonus, but that's okay, as you can make up the loss of attacks with powerful maneuvers. It's also offset a bit by the free Weapon Focus from your Swordsage levels, the +2 bonus to strike attack rolls you get from MotN, and the +4 to hit you get against foes blinded by your Darkness within Light ability. Still, consider investing heavily in stat-enhancing items and anything that allows you to hit as a touch attack.

Save-wise you're much better off, with a base save set-up of +10/+11/+14

How it works:

1: Swordsage 1: 2 Desert Wind, 2 Diamond Mind, 3 Tiger Claw (any can be the stance)
2: Swordsage 2: Shadow Hand
3: Swordsage 3: Shadow Hand
4: Swordsage 4: Setting Sun
5: Swordsage 5: Anything you want
5-14: Shadow Sun Ninja (1-9): Anything, so long as you meet the required number of Shadow Hand and Setting Sun by the end of it.

This means that before entering MotN, you have

2 of 4 Desert Wind
0 of 2 Devoted Spirit
2 of 2 Diamond Mind
2 of 3 Iron Heart (through feats)
4 of 4 Setting Sun
4 of 4 Shadow Hand
0 of 0 Stone Dragon
3 of 3 Tiger Claw
0 of 3 White Raven

15: MotN 1: Desert Wind, Iron Heart (through feat)
16: MotN 2: Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit Stance

You now have the following:

4 of 4 Desert Wind
1 of 2 Devoted Spirit
2 of 2 Diamond Mind
3 of 3 Iron Heart (through feats)
4 of 4 Setting Sun
4 of 4 Shadow Hand
0 of 0 Stone Dragon
3 of 3 Tiger Claw
0 of 3 White Raven


17: MotN 3: 9th level Desert Wind, 9th level Diamond Mind
18: MotN 4: 9th level Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit Stance, 9th level Iron Heart through Feat
19: MotN 5: 9th Level Tiger Claw, 9th level Setting Sun

You now have the following (bold designates having the 9th level maneuver):

4 of 4 Desert Wind
2 of 2 Devoted Spirit
2 of 2 Diamond Mind
3 of 3 Iron Heart (through feats)
4 of 4 Setting Sun
4 of 4 Shadow Hand
0 of 0 Stone Dragon
3 of 3 Tiger Claw
0 of 3 White Raven

Now the odd part. Take, as your 20th level, a single level of Crusader. You gain 5 maneuvers and a stance. Take the following:

20: Crusader 1 (Initiator level 17--2 from Swordsage, 14 from Shadow Sun and MotN, and 1 from this level): 2 White Raven, White Raven Stance, 9th level Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven

That leaves us with (bold designates having the 9th level maneuver):

4 of 4 Desert Wind
2 of 2 Devoted Spirit
2 of 2 Diamond Mind
3 of 3 Iron Heart (through feats)
4 of 4 Setting Sun
4 of 4 Shadow Hand
0 of 0 Stone Dragon
3 of 3 Tiger Claw
3 of 3 White Raven

That's right. ALL NINE.

Congratulation, Reshar. Now go out and kick some ass. :D

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-10, 12:26 PM
Apparently, the original thread got swept into the abyss of the internet. Luckily, someone managed to save the information before this happened and copypasta'd it into the Tome of Battle for Dummies thread on BG.

Relevant Info in spoiler tags:
[spoiler][quote author=axleleft link=topic=357.msg186705#msg186705 date=1251951120]
[quote author=DaveTheMagicWeasel link=topic=357.msg6907#msg6907 date=1211637134]

Master of Nine
- Mastery of Nine: ready at start of day from as many disciplines as possible to maximize bonus, then spend 5 minutes changing them as desired.
- Becoming Reshar: True Mastery of the Nine Swords (http://"http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=897344") by Gideon_Gideonson access to all 9 9th level maneuvers


Ah. My old build (yes...I'm Gideon_Gideonson, as proven by a few links to anyone who really feels it necessary to doubt me). I thought it had been lost. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I'm not sure it works...the ability of the items to count towards maneuvers is vague at best, although it does say that you know the maneuver, and have access to it, which seems to imply that it does count. Also, because of the way requirements work, once you have the 9th level maneuver you may take off the item, as maneuvers (strangely enough) can meet their own requirements.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-10, 12:30 PM
Ah. My old build (yes...I'm Gideon_Gideonson, as proven by a few links to anyone who really feels it necessary to doubt me). I thought it had been lost. :smallbiggrin:

That said, I'm not sure it works...the ability of the items to count towards maneuvers is vague at best, although it does say that you know the maneuver, and have access to it, which seems to imply that it does count. Also, because of the way requirements work, once you have the 9th level maneuver you may take off the item, as maneuvers (strangely enough) can meet their own requirements.

I for one always assumed that the items worked without question. Kind of like how virtual feats from things like Heroics and Mirror Mastery can lead to qualification to others, or how having wildshape can allow druids to take Multiattack even without naturally having attack routine to qualify.

EDIT: Also, props on the build. So silly that there actually is a way to net all 9th level maneuvers pre-epic.

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-10, 12:41 PM
EDIT: Also, props on the build. So silly that there actually is a way to net all 9th level maneuvers pre-epic.

Thanks!

It's also silly that the build that does so actually sucks at combat...+12 BaB? Really?

It practically demands wraithstrike cheese to be able to contribute...although once you do use that, you have enough 9th level maneuvers to contribute all encounter. :smallbiggrin:

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-10, 12:46 PM
Thanks!

It's also silly that the build that does so actually sucks at combat...+12 BaB? Really?

It practically demands wraithstrike cheese to be able to contribute...although once you do use that, you have enough 9th level maneuvers to contribute all encounter. :smallbiggrin:

Well, the guy is only down three points to hit from a similar swordsage. Plus, Skillfull weapons put him back at 3/4 BAB. Wraithstrike is still nice, though, but when is that not true when you're the one using it? Side-note: a good friend of mine always jokes about dipping four levels of focused specialist transmuter just to grab enough uses of wraithstrike so his power attacks will connect.

nekomata2
2009-12-10, 12:48 PM
Isn't it heavily implied the first school Reshar learned was Iron Heart, meaning his first level should have been in Warblade?

Boci
2009-12-10, 12:49 PM
Thanks!

It's also silly that the build that does so actually sucks at combat...+12 BaB? Really?

What about the use of fractional BAB?

Djinn_in_Tonic
2009-12-10, 12:52 PM
What about the use of fractional BAB?

That raises it to 15.25, making it definitely playable. :smallbiggrin:


Isn't it heavily implied the first school Reshar learned was Iron Heart, meaning his first level should have been in Warblade?

Hush, you! :smalltongue:

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-10, 12:55 PM
Hush, you! :smalltongue:

Actually, that's pretty simple. See, originally, Reshar was just Warblade 20. Then he retrained... hard. That's when he became a Crusader 20... then a Swordsage 20... then an unworkable subpar combination of just the three base classes.

Finally, Reshar's DM said "Screw it! The retraining rules themselves say be lazy, just keep all of your 9th level maneuvers and let's get back to smacking around some Demigods."

Boci
2009-12-10, 12:56 PM
Actually, that's pretty simple. See, originally, Reshar was just Warblade 20. Then he retrained... hard. That's when he became a Crusader 20... then a Swordsage 20... then an unworkable subpar combination of just the three base classes.

Finally, Reshar's DM said "Screw it! The retraining rules themselves say be lazy, just keep all of your 9th level maneuvers and let's get back to smacking around some Demigods."

Or he was gestalt.

Thrice Dead Cat
2009-12-10, 12:58 PM
Or he was gestalt.

Well, yeah, but that's like cheating:smalltongue:

Eldariel
2009-12-10, 01:04 PM
He could also just be Epic. But yeah, by Fractional BAB Djinny's build actually works out fine; MoTN's 5th level ability enables quite the impressive boosts To Hit while Striking, and there's the WF and all.

Of course, the "items for prerequisites"-crap is pretty shaky, and there isn't a good way around it (without XIITING), but with few Flaws, location-granted feats, and such you can get some more done.

Draz74
2009-12-10, 01:06 PM
My own favorite Master of Nine build admittedly neglects some of the Disciplines rather badly (especially Devoted Spirit). But I'm sure it could be tweaked to fix most of that. Especially because I didn't allow myself the Unarmed Swordsage variant, which would have saved a feat; and didn't use items to qualify for prereqs either.

This build, "Murn," ended up with the following at Level 20:

Human Swordsage 2/Warblade 11/Fighter 2/Master of Nine 5
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick, Desert Wind Dodge, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, Adaptive Style, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Martial Study, Martial Stance, Combat Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit

Stances known: Dance of the Spider, Hearing the Air, Leading the Charge, Press the Advantage, Roots of the Mountain, Shifting Defense, Stance of Alacrity, Step of the Wind

Warblade maneuvers readied: Baffling Defense, Iron Heart Surge, Mirrored Pursuit, Mountain Tombstone Strike, Pouncing Charge, Strike of Perfect Clarity, Time Stands Still, Wall of Blades, White Raven Hammer, White Raven Tactics
Swordsage maneuvers readied: Desert Tempest, Moment of Perfect Mind, Soaring Throw, Zephyr Dance

Other maneuvers known: Ancient Mountain Hammer, Charging Minotaur, Counter Charge, Death from Above, Diamond Nightmare Blade, Iron Heart Endurance, Mighty Throw, Rapid Counter, Shield Block, Sudden Leap, Wind Stride, Wolf Fang Strike

elliott20
2009-12-10, 09:12 PM
It's not that Djinny's build doesn't work, but rather, wow... that is just so unintuitive. Perhaps I should just consider him an epic character instead.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-10, 09:57 PM
I'm curious why you went with Shadowsun Ninja. I definitely like the PrC, but it has a pretty slow maneuvers known progression. Wouldn't you be better off staying a Swordsage from a pure maneuvers point of view?

Elfin
2009-12-10, 10:20 PM
According to Harran Turiyeshor's narrative, yes, Reshar was the first Master of Nine.
We know that he first mastered the Iron Heart, followed by Desert Wind and then Setting Sun, so it seems that Reshar was originally a Warblade and then multiclassed into Swordsage before going Mo9. He may very well be an Unarmed Swordsage, since he is pictured throughout the book as wielding a longsword/bastard sword in one hand and no weapon in the other (except on the cover, where he also has a shortsword); in fact, this is why I expect Improved Unarmed Strike is one of the prereqs for Mo9.

Draz74
2009-12-10, 11:52 PM
I'm curious why you went with Shadowsun Ninja. I definitely like the PrC, but it has a pretty slow maneuvers known progression. Wouldn't you be better off staying a Swordsage from a pure maneuvers point of view?
Yes, but he's better off as a Shadow Sun Ninja from an Initiator Level perspective. PrCs count as adding full initiator levels to all your ToB base classes. So when he takes his one level of Crusader, he can take Mountain Tombstone Strike, War Master's Charge, and Strike of Righteous Vitality as his three new maneuvers, because he has a Crusader Initiator Level of 17 (+2 from Swordsage, +9 from SSN, +5 from Mo9, and +1 from Crusader). SSN is picked pretty much just for being easy to enter.


According to Harran Turiyeshor's narrative, yes, Reshar was the first Master of Nine.
We know that he first mastered the Iron Heart, followed by Desert Wind and then Setting Sun, so it seems that Reshar was originally a Warblade and then multiclassed into Swordsage before going Mo9. He may very well be an Unarmed Swordsage, since he is pictured throughout the book as wielding a longsword/bastard sword in one hand and no weapon in the other (except on the cover, where he also has a shortsword); in fact, this is why I expect Improved Unarmed Strike is one of the prereqs for Mo9.

I'd be surprised if he didn't dip a Crusader level somewhere too. Though if a Mo9 build wants to get a decent amount of high-level maneuvers, he must avoid dipping too much. Maybe even just one Swordsage level and one Crusader level.

elliott20
2009-12-11, 12:55 AM
I do wonder though, was he actually a TRUE master of every discipline in that he can use 9th level maneuvers from each school, necessitating the need for all these builds, or was he just the first master of nine, but strictly speaking still focused in only a couple schools.

i.e. I can see him as a specialist in diamond mind, iron heart, and setting sun, but not a master of every single one of the nine disciplines.

Darrin
2009-12-11, 05:37 PM
There are at least two other methods to get all nine 9th level maneuvers:

Kirech's Peerless Master of the Sublime Way (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium?post_id=338393250# 338393250) (gets all the prereqs, then uses the heroics spell to pick up Martial Study feats).

My Heaven of Nine (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II?post_id=3384036 02#338403602) is somewhat fiddly and is two feats short, but you can pick those up via flaws, retraining, psychic reformation, or the usual Dark Chaos shenanigans.

It may also be possible to use Bloodline levels, Legacy Champion, or Uncanny Trickster to rapidly inflate your Initiator Level, but I haven't taken the time to work out if you can get all nine that way.

Eldariel
2009-12-11, 06:31 PM
There are at least two other methods to get all nine 9th level maneuvers:

Kirech's Peerless Master of the Sublime Way (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871346/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium?post_id=338393250# 338393250) (gets all the prereqs, then uses the heroics spell to pick up Martial Study feats).

My Heaven of Nine (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871534/Tome_of_Battle_Build_Compendium_II?post_id=3384036 02#338403602) is somewhat fiddly and is two feats short, but you can pick those up via flaws, retraining, psychic reformation, or the usual Dark Chaos shenanigans.

It may also be possible to use Bloodline levels, Legacy Champion, or Uncanny Trickster to rapidly inflate your Initiator Level, but I haven't taken the time to work out if you can get all nine that way.

It's been done with Bloodlines. However, since they're...well, the most botched up rule in 3.5, nobody cares.

Darrin
2009-12-11, 07:50 PM
It's been done with Bloodlines. However, since they're...well, the most botched up rule in 3.5, nobody cares.

Hmm. Warblade 1/Crusader 1/Swordsage 7/Legacy Champion 6/MoN 5 appears to work, if you assume Legacy Champion 2-6 counts as 1.5 Initiator Levels and allows you to continue to get Swordsage maneuvers and stances. Maneuvers + Stances = 41. 7 feats = 2x Martial Study, Blindfight, Adaptive Style, Dodge, Imp. Init, Least Legacy.

I'm not sure about that Initiator Level, though... Swordsage 7 + Legacy Champion 6, IL = 12.0 (Swordsage 12) + 3.0 (1/2 Leg. Champ) = 15?

Tavar
2009-12-11, 07:55 PM
Why not put Legacy champion after you start MotN? That way you get more stances and maneuvers.