Chain-Gating Solars?

[Vorpalbob]

I'm sure there is a thread like this somewhere, but I can't find it. Anyway, what in the nine hells is chain-gating solars? I know sort of what it is, I know that it has something to do with the Wish spell, but even though I have been reading the 3.5 books obsessively since they came out, I have no idea what benefit this trick does.

Help plz.

[Myrmex]

Summon a Solar. Have it use its Wish spell-like ability to create a Candle of Invocation. Since it's an Sp-ability, it costs the Solar no XP to make. Use the Gate function of the Candle to summon another Solar, which then grants you another Wish, etc. etc.

[Vorpalbob]

*jaw drops*

has any DM EVER allowed this? I mean, come on.

[Tanaric]

It's probably been pulled a few times when the DM didn't know what was about to happen, but it's not something you seriously use. All it does is ruin the game for everyone else, and you can't "win" D&D.

[Myrmex]

I had a Candle of Invocation I bought in an evil campaign once, and used it for the spell level boost on days I thought we'd face hard things. I tried Gating in a Pit Fiend, but the DM was having none of it.

Then he spammed our level 10 party with 3 10d6 fireballs and killed most of the party. I should have got that Pit Fiend. We needed it. =/

[Chaelos]

Someone tried this in a game I played in years ago. Predictably, it didn't go over well. (Not a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" scenario, but the character in question was promptly destroyed by the god the Solar had previously been serving).

As I've observed for years, powergaming thought experiments sound cool, but rarely stand up to the test of the DM's discretion.

[Vorpalbob]

A few years back I read about the Commoner Railgun, and have been dying to try to slip it past a DM. Then I played with a DM who had never heard of it, and he let it work. Once. I tried it again, and a demon I had angered earlier in the campaign turned all of my hired commoners into imps and they all swarmed me. The party survived, but three people were riding the Negative Hitpoint Express.

Needless to say, I never tried any more tricks.

[Doc Roc]

Despite devising innumerable tricks, I use few of them, and advise people not to use them. While TO is easily dismissed, the problem arises not in the obvious extensions of these things, but in the lesser and more limited incidental encounters with them.

[Kobold-Bard]

1. Ask your DM if they've ever heard of a Sarrukh.
2. Make a Kobold Psion for your next campaign.
3. Attempt to dodge the various books that the DM throws at you once you gain a few levels.

Chain-gating Solars. Ha!!

[bosssmiley]

*jaw drops*

has any DM EVER allowed this? I mean, come on.

Sure they have. Just remember that any trick that you use can also be used against you by NPCs.

(And that is how Gentlemanly Agreements come about. :smallamused:)

[Foryn Gilnith]

I tried it again, and a demon I had angered earlier in the campaign turned all of my hired commoners into imps and they all swarmed me. The party survived, but three people were riding the Negative Hitpoint Express.

lol

Why not? I'm sure that it would have given you new and useful insight into the depths of your DM's creativity.

Also, I expect that chain-gating solars is how the upper planes combat the massive hordes of evil.

[elonin]

The idea of chain gating solars can be easily mitigated by the dm rolling some % that the solar summoned has already used his wish. Its not as though they are just sitting around waiting to be summoned by some pc.

[erikun]

Its not as though they are just sitting around waiting to be summoned by some pc.
Or maybe they are, and the BBEG just got to that Solar first. :smallbiggrin: Remember, anything you can do, the DM can retroactively do better.

[Starbuck_II]

You could just use Titans.

[kamikasei]

You could just use Titans.

Same applies, though (depending who you're replying to) - maybe they've already used their gate for the day. Admittedly, not as likely as that they'd have already used an ability as staggeringly useful as wish.

[Tehnar]

If nothing else you could rule that every solar (and every creature that can cast wish as a SLA, not to mention be able to use epic spellcasting) just uses wish to prevent it from being called by gate.

The argument has been made for effreet; as they can only grant wishes to mortals. Now the key word is "granted", which is similar to the noble jinn ability to grant wishes to mortals who captured it. You could argue that effreet suffer the same stipulation. However this is not by RAW, just my justification.

[SurlySeraph]

I remember someone posted in an earlier thread that her DM allowed chain-gating Solars, but then the forces opposing them retaliated by chain-gating... Pit Fiends, I think?... and the world ended up devastated by a massive battle between good and evil that could have been entirely avoided.

[Kris Strife]

I remember someone posted in an earlier thread that her DM allowed chain-gating Solars, but then the forces opposing them retaliated by chain-gating... Pit Fiends, I think?... and the world ended up devastated by a massive battle between good and evil that could have been entirely avoided.

.... Is it bad I want to make a high level wizard who solves problems by starting this, going to his pocket dimension with his friends and watching the action on a crystal ball while eating popcorn?

[Starbuck_II]

I remember someone posted in an earlier thread that her DM allowed chain-gating Solars, but then the forces opposing them retaliated by chain-gating... Pit Fiends, I think?... and the world ended up devastated by a massive battle between good and evil that could have been entirely avoided.

Reminds me of Warcraft 1 battles against my friends. It was Water Elementals versus Balors though. We were chain-gating against each other. See there wads this bridge between our nations and the summons went there to fight.

[Lycanthromancer]

*jaw drops*

has any DM EVER allowed this? I mean, come on.Chain-gating is for wimps. Core-only, I can get infinite wishes cast for me every round by level 4 or 5, and it only takes a minute or two to get it going.

If non-Core is allowed, this might be possible at level 1.

[Eldariel]

Reminds me of Warcraft 1 battles against my friends. It was Water Elementals versus Balors though. We were chain-gating against each other. See there wads this bridge between our nations and the summons went there to fight.

Man, those summons were crazy. Basically the only good counter to one was the other; in the end it ended up in Humans' advantage since while Balors are tougher on individual basis than Water Elementals, Elementals' ranged attack means there's a much larger number of them attacking than Balors at any given time.

Of course, since they were infinite to tech, they weren't THAT big a problem.

[Oslecamo]

Chain-gating is for wimps. Core-only, I can get infinite wishes cast for me every round by level 4 or 5, and it only takes a minute or two to get it going.

If non-Core is allowed, this might be possible at level 1.

Congratulations, since you're doing infinite wishes, you'll need an infinite amount of time to decide what to do with them, meaning your character gets traped into a singularity and the rest of the world keeps moving.

[SparkMandriller]

Chain-gating is for wimps. Core-only, I can get infinite wishes cast for me every round by level 4 or 5, and it only takes a minute or two to get it going.

If non-Core is allowed, this might be possible at level 1.

I knew that core only games were superior!

[Emmerask]

Someone tried this in a game I played in years ago. Predictably, it didn't go over well. (Not a "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies" scenario, but the character in question was promptly destroyed by the god the Solar had previously been serving).

As I've observed for years, powergaming thought experiments sound cool, but rarely stand up to the test of the DM's discretion.

Yep did the same thing :smallbiggrin: ...don´t piss off the gods

[Tshern]

Despite devising innumerable tricks, I use few of them, and advise people not to use them. While TO is easily dismissed, the problem arises not in the obvious extensions of these things, but in the lesser and more limited incidental encounters with them.
Not to mentioned that the limit between TO and practical optimization is hard to define. When is a charger doing too much damage? What kind of precautions can a caster take? Divinations? The list goes on forever.

[Lycanthromancer]

Congratulations, since you're doing infinite wishes, you'll need an infinite amount of time to decide what to do with them, meaning your character gets traped into a singularity and the rest of the world keeps moving.That's what the Fast Flowing Planar Trait is for.

And anyway, I could set up a number of wish subroutines early on, then give the commands to execute them (and thereby my enemies): "OMΦΨTΞBBΩ!" (Which is Greekleetspeak for "DIVIDE, DISPEL, CONQUER, AND KILL!")

Simulacrums are nothing if not prompt and obedient.

[taltamir]

I want to hear the infinite free wishes by level 5 by core and level 1 with everything... how do you do that?

[Tshern]

I want to hear the infinite free wishes by level 5 by core and level 1 with everything... how do you do that?
The core one I am not sure of, but the latter is easy.
-Make a DC 20 Knowledge (religion) check and learn about Pazuzu.
-Summon Pazuzu.
-Wish for a Candle of Invocation.
-Profit.

I suppose the core one could be achieved with Diplomacy spamming.

[Ormagoden]

I want to hear the infinite free wishes by level 5 by core and level 1 with everything... how do you do that?

with a zodar :smallbiggrin:

[taltamir]

The core one I am not sure of, but the latter is easy.
-Make a DC 20 Knowledge (religion) check and learn about Pazuzu.
-Summon Pazuzu.
-Wish for a Candle of Invocation.
-Profit.

I suppose the core one could be achieved with Diplomacy spamming.

how do you summon pazuzu at level 1?


with a zodar :smallbiggrin:

how?

[Lycanthromancer]

Core only:
1. Use your ECL 4-5 wealth to buy a CL 15 scroll of simulacrum.
2. Keep making CL checks until you can create an efreeti slave.
3. Use your wishes to:
--a. Plane shift yourself to the Astral Plane.
--b. Get a scroll of genesis with the Fast-Flowing Time trait (1 round on the Prime Material Plane = 100 years on the demiplane).
--c. Get a simulacrum of a solar.
4. Have the solar cast genesis, then plane shift you into your new demiplane (remember, it should be full-sized by the following round, given how fast time moves on that plane).
5. Use the next few days to wish for more and more and more and more efreeti simulacra. Less than 1 round will have passed elsewhere.
6. Profit!

Now you have entire armies of efreet, as well as any other pre-epic creatures you might want.

Non-Core:
1. Take the Precocious Apprentice feat for summon mirror mephit.
2. Summon a mirror mephit.
3. Have it cast its simulacrum Spell-Like Ability.
4. Start pulling off steps 3+ above.

This second one may not work, depending on if its simulacrum ability takes longer to cast than the duration you can get on your summon spell.

[Boci]

how do you summon pazuzu at level 1?

If you say his name three times he will appear and grant you a wish if you are not CE.

[hamishspence]

The precise phrasing- with key bits:

If he wishes and is able, Pazuzu can use plane shift and greater teleport to travel to the speaker's location with precise accuracy, as long as he does so before the minute is up. Once he arrives, Pazuzu asks the speaker why he called on the Prince of Aerial Kingdoms.

Pazuzu almost always agrees to provide aid, but if he does the creature's alignment shifts one step toward Chaotic. If the caller's alignment is already Chaotic, it instead shifts one step closer to Evil.

Aid granted by Pazuzu is typically granted in the manner easiest for the demon prince to manage, often in the form of his wish spell-like ability.

So getting a wish is not an absolute guarantee.

According to Demonomicon: Pazuzu, he sometimes sends his much weaker aspect to answer requests. Which does not have wish.

[Sir Giacomo]

To the OP: Do not let yourself get confused. A chain-gating solar even theoretically is hardly possible RAW core:

1. You need to make knowledge-planes checks to even have a chance to know about a Solar's ability to cast gate or wish. The DC for that kind of information is entirely up to the DM (as per knowledge skill rules).

2. The solar does one service for you, fight for you or gate in someone. Not more. If it gates in another one, it departs. That solar can then gate again another one in and departs. And so on. Great, eh?:smallsmile:

3. Every time, a puny mortal uses a gate to call such a powerful creature to do this nonsensical stuff the risk of retribution after said solars return to their plane increases.

Lycantrhomancer's idea about getting infinite wishes encounters the same problems, plus encurs the wrath of a DM who reads through the wish spell description and sees that wishes leading to more than explicitly granted can be quite dangerous ...

- Giacomo

[Grifthin]

whats the commoner railgun thingy.

[Oslecamo]

2. Keep making CL checks until you can create an efreeti slave.


Eerrr, an efreeti simulacrum only has half of his HD, wich means that, by the Savage species progression, he cannot use wish. Your plan flops right at the second step.

Besides, genesis isn't even core.

[9mm]

whats the commoner railgun thingy.

the slaughtering of cat girls by bringing pseudo-real world physics into D&D.

Works by making a line of Npcs (typically commoners), who start passing an object down the line as free actions causing object to move arbitrary distance in 6 seconds; P=MV^2. get a line long enough you hit speed of light/ theoretical faster than light speeds. How this gets around the objects reletive increase in mass as the object approaches lightspeed, and the gravitational forces that would entail is left unexplained.

[sofawall]

wishes leading to more than explicitly granted can be quite dangerous ...

- Giacomo

Luckily, Lycanthromancer only used uses that are explicitly granted.

[Oslecamo]

Luckily, Lycanthromancer only used uses that are explicitly granted.

No he doesn't. He's making simulacrums who explicity can't use wish as per Savage Species grant him wishes.

[Ecalsneerg]

Eerrr, an efreeti simulacrum only has half of his HD, wich means that, by the Savage species progression, he cannot use wish. Your plan flops right at the second step.

Besides, genesis isn't even core.

Neither is Savage Species. At least Genesis is 3.5

[Sir Giacomo]

Luckily, Lycanthromancer only used uses that are explicitly granted.

I would not necessarily call a piece of a solar (needed for the simulacrum) and a non-core spell scroll things explicitly granted by a wish spell. Also, the efreeti simulacrums stop at the necessity to have a piece of them to make them. And the DM will set the abilities as appropriate for a lower HD creature of those kinds.

To sum up: It does not work.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

[Oslecamo]

Neither is Savage Species. At least Genesis is 3.5

It is 3.5 actualy. It technicaly came before 3.5, but you can clearly see that it follow many of the concepts introduced in 3.5.

Also, RAW states that non updated material from 3.0 is still completely valid in 3.5.:smallwink:

[Kantolin]

I would not necessarily call a piece of a solar (needed for the simulacrum) and a non-core spell scroll things explicitly granted by a wish spell.

The material component is not an expensive one, thus the 'piece of a solar' half is in fact in your spell component pouch. Along with a piece of armour from a 15th level fighter for some spell or another. And lots of guano. That's also not something most DMs would interrupt.

Wish then allows "Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item." A scroll is a magic item. Summarily, wish does expressly permit this. Using wish for a scroll is also not something most DMs would interrupt.

I then don't know enough about everything else to comment. And of course, no sane DM would permit this overall tactic, but that doesn't change things.

[Emmerask]

It is 3.5 actualy. It technicaly came before 3.5, but you can clearly see that it follow many of the concepts introduced in 3.5.

Also, RAW states that non updated material from 3.0 is still completely valid in 3.5.:smallwink:

Many of the concepts from tob are used in 4.0 and it is still a 3.5 book not a 4.0 book ;)

[Lycanthromancer]

Eerrr, an efreeti simulacrum only has half of his HD, wich means that, by the Savage species progression, he cannot use wish. Your plan flops right at the second step.

Besides, genesis isn't even core.Yeah, now that I look at it, it's not. However, it's also not technically needed, assuming you want to extend the amount of real time you do this in, which still amounts to Nigh Infinite simulacra anyway, since the increase in wishes-for-simulacra is exponential. It just takes a bit longer, so do it on one of your days off.

However, not many groups play core-only (and many of those that do expand it to include the SRD, of which genesis is explicitly a part).

However, everything else in that first progression works, as has been explained perfectly well by other posts in the thread.

Wizards are tier 1 for a reason. Yes, even in core. Really, the only things that are stronger than a RAW core-only wizard* are A.) deities, and B.) non-core wizards.

*Assuming everyone's of the same level.

[hamishspence]

If you don't have the SRD, just the books, then Genesis also falls into the category of "perfectly good 3.0 material"

since the most recent version of it was statted out in Epic Handbook and there were no 3.5-specific versions.

What makes Savage Species (and Fiend Folio, and Unapproachable East), 3.25, rather than 3.0, so to speak, were the changes in skills, that were introduced fully in 3.5.

[Oslecamo]

However, everything else in that first progression works, as has been explained perfectly well by other posts in the thread.


You still have to explain how your efreeti simulacrums are using wish at all, since if they're half the normal HD, they cannot use it, as per Savage Species.

[sofawall]

I would not necessarily call a piece of a solar (needed for the simulacrum) and a non-core spell scroll things explicitly granted by a wish spell. Also, the efreeti simulacrums stop at the necessity to have a piece of them to make them. And the DM will set the abilities as appropriate for a lower HD creature of those kinds.

To sum up: It does not work.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

If we use core only, both savage species and a scroll of Genesis are not applicable. Therefore, savage progressions are not applicable. Therefore, the Efreet can use Wish.

Also, wishing for a scroll (assuming that spell exists in you game i.e. not core-only) is one of the defined uses of Wish.

Also, since a piece of a solar has no gp value, it is in a spell component pouch.

[Lycanthromancer]

You still have to explain how your efreeti simulacrums are using wish at all, since if they're half the normal HD, they cannot use it, as per Savage Species.They are simulacra. Go read the spell. Savage Species never enters the picture.

[SurlySeraph]

Core only:
1. Use your ECL 4-5 wealth to buy a CL 15 scroll of simulacrum.
2. Keep making CL checks until you can create an efreeti slave.

Assuming you don't get a scroll mishap first, and that the summoned efreet can a) exist and b) give you three wishes, despite having half its normal levels. A simulacrum has "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD." I am not aware of any creatures with 5 HD that have a Wish SLA, and I don't think you can easily argue that three wishes are a level-appropriate ability for a 5 HD, presumably CR 4 creature.


3. Use your wishes to:
--a. Plane shift yourself to the Astral Plane.
--b. Get a scroll of genesis with the Fast-Flowing Time trait (1 round on the Prime Material Plane = 100 years on the demiplane).

Assuming you can determine the time trait of the demiplane, which is disputed. Also assuming that you can get a 9th-level scroll with Wish; the wording is:


•Create a nonmagical item of up to 25,000 gp in value.
•Create a magic item, or add to the powers of an existing magic item.

Doesn't say how much the magic item can be worth. As getting a 9th-level scroll is pretty much duplicating a 9th-level spell and Wish can only duplicate up to 8th-level spells, it's questionable whether Wish can do that. Also, you've got the issue of avoiding scroll mishaps again.


--c. Get a simulacrum of a solar.
4. Have the solar cast genesis, then plane shift you into your new demiplane (remember, it should be full-sized by the following round, given how fast time moves on that plane).

Genesis is an arcane and Creation domain spell. Solars are divine casters. You'd have to specify a Solar of a deity that gets the Creation domain. And like with the efreet, it's questionable whether a solar with half the HD would still get 9th-level spells; solars appear to have Cleric spell progression, so saying that it only has up to 6th-level spells would most likely be level-appropriate. Plus, the simulacrum would still have 11 HD, over twice as much as simulacra that you can create at that level, so it's not certain that Wish's spell-duplicating function can create it. And don't say it's a magic item, because last time I checked simulacra do not have a listed price.


5. Use the next few days to wish for more and more and more and more efreeti simulacra. Less than 1 round will have passed elsewhere.

Again, assuming that your efreet can do that.

In summary: could work, but it's quite iffy and depends a lot on DM fiat and plentiful houseruling. I prefer tricks that can stand on their own, which the Mirror Mephit method has a somewhat better argument for (though not a flawless one).

[hamishspence]

The material component is not an expensive one, thus the 'piece of a solar' half is in fact in your spell component pouch. Along with a piece of armour from a 15th level fighter for some spell or another. And lots of guano. That's also not something most DMs would interrupt.


a piece of a solar, or whatever being is getting duplicated in weaker form, is a bit out of the ordinary- even if it's "not an expensive component."

I figured the "piece of the creature" requirement is so that there is some kind of quest, sneaky trick, etc to get flesh, or hair, or nail clipping, or whatever.

Is it only non-unique creatures that can be simulcra'd?

[sofawall]

Solars appear to have Cleric spell progression, so saying that it only has up to 6th-level spells would most likely be level-appropriate.

Why does it appear to have Cleric spell progression? It has more HD than it has caster levels, so the Cleric levels are not connected to HD right there, but then, furthermore, it never says the Solar "Casts as a Cleric of a level equal to its HD-2" or some such clause. No, it merely says it casts as a level 20 cleric.

[hamishspence]

also- the Creation domain was revised in Complete Divine- removing Genesis from the list.

If SRD version of a domain predates book version, does the SRD version still always take precedence?

[SurlySeraph]

Why does it appear to have Cleric spell progression? It has more HD than it has caster levels, so the Cleric levels are not connected to HD right there, but then, furthermore, it never says the Solar "Casts as a Cleric of a level equal to its HD-2" or some such clause. No, it merely says it casts as a level 20 cleric.

Yes, it casts as a 20th level cleric. Is it not therefore logical to assume a solar with half the hit dice casts as a 10th level cleric?

[Oslecamo]

They are simulacra. Go read the spell. Savage Species never enters the picture.

It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD)

So, what are the special abilities for an half HD simulacrum? What you say? Or what the only oficial book that has an half HD efreeti says?

[hamishspence]

"appropriate powers" for a 11 HD creature rather than a 22 HD creature is tricky to adjudicate.

[Starbuck_II]

Doesn't say how much the magic item can be worth. As getting a 9th-level scroll is pretty much duplicating a 9th-level spell and Wish can only duplicate up to 8th-level spells, it's questionable whether Wish can do that. Also, you've got the issue of avoiding scroll mishaps again.

Yeah, it does. You pay XP instead of Gold and XP to create the magic item. Look at bottom of wish talking about XP costs.

The issue is spell-like abilities ignore XP cost so you get a free Wish. Really stupid of Wotc to do that, but that is how it works.

Back to approproate abilities:
Um, CR 11 says Disjunction at will is perfectly fine. Using that fact: Wish 1/day isn't so out of left field.

[Oslecamo]

"appropriate powers" for a 11 HD creature rather than a 22 HD creature is tricky to adjudicate.

Thus, Savage Species, that has all the progression made for our convenience.

Plus, the strongest powers certainly should definetely come last. If they wanted you to get everything the creature has, they wouldn't have put that clause.

[Lycanthromancer]

Assuming you don't get a scroll mishap first, and that the summoned efreet can a) exist and b) give you three wishes, despite having half its normal levels. A simulacrum has "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD." I am not aware of any creatures with 5 HD that have a Wish SLA, and I don't think you can easily argue that three wishes are a level-appropriate ability for a 5 HD, presumably CR 4 creature.Nightmares are 6 HD, and they get 2 9th level spells at will. You are giving a creature of 1 HD less half the abilities, usable a limited number of times per day.

D&D is really messed up sometimes.


Assuming you can determine the time trait of the demiplane, which is disputed.It's a physical trait of the plane. It works, though it was taken out of the psionic version (and wasn't even errata'd out of the divine version, which came out after the psionic version, meaning it still stands, unfortunately allowing things like this to occur).


Also assuming that you can get a 9th-level scroll with Wish; the wording is:

Doesn't say how much the magic item can be worth. As getting a 9th-level scroll is pretty much duplicating a 9th-level spell and Wish can only duplicate up to 8th-level spells, it's questionable whether Wish can do that. Also, you've got the issue of avoiding scroll mishaps again.Scrolls are magic items, which aren't capped with gp costs, according to the text. It explicitly disallows nonmagical items of over 25k gp, but no such text exists for magical ones. I could accept a houserule capping the cost of a magical item, but it'd have to be the same cap as nonmagical items (and even then it'd still be a houserule).

As far as mishaps go, you must first fail a CL check, then make a DC 5 Wis check, and even then the scroll isn't damaged. None of the mishaps mentioned really do much when applied toward genesis, and the chances of a mishap even occurring are very very slim.


Genesis is an arcane and Creation domain spell. Solars are divine casters. You'd have to specify a Solar of a deity that gets the Creation domain. And like with the efreet, it's questionable whether a solar with half the HD would still get 9th-level spells; solars appear to have Cleric spell progression, so saying that it only has up to 6th-level spells would most likely be level-appropriate. Plus, the simulacrum would still have 11 HD, over twice as much as simulacra that you can create at that level, so it's not certain that Wish's spell-duplicating function can create it. And don't say it's a magic item, because last time I checked simulacra do not have a listed price.Efreeti simulacra still have the CL 12 wishes, so creating a solar isn't a big deal. If it is, then just wish for a scroll and do it yourself.

If getting the right type of solar becomes an issue, just wish for another arcane scroll and do it yourself, or wish for a command-activated trap of genesis, or boots of genesis, or a ring of genesis or what have you. No limits are placed on magic item creation, and efreet regain their wishes every day, so you can continue trying as often as you like.


Again, assuming that your efreet can do that.

In summary: could work, but it's quite iffy and depends a lot on DM fiat and plentiful houseruling. I prefer tricks that can stand on their own, which the Mirror Mephit method has a somewhat better argument for (though not a flawless one).Not too hard, really. The biggest part is the DM houseruling, "No, you can't do that," which pretty much all of them will.

[Boci]

Yes, it casts as a 20th level cleric. Is it not therefore logical to assume a solar with half the hit dice casts as a 10th level cleric?

We are talking about theoretical optimization. Must you ruin it with your logic? And from a RAW standpoint whilst logical I don't think it has any support, since they aren't expressedly tied together.

[hamishspence]

Cleric casting from a celestial (in Savage Species) does show progression, rather than instant full casting (the Trumpet Archon)

So, if one was to create a "level progression" for the Solar, using the same principle is logical.

However, since there is none at the moment, it's a bit unclear RAW whether 11 HD solar simulcra get full casting or not.

[sofawall]

No, based on RAW it is perfectly clear. It become muddled when you try to use an amalgamation of RAW and RAMS.

[Boci]

No, based on RAW it is perfectly clear. It become muddled when you try to use an amalgamation of RAW and RAMS.

Which are kinda irrelivant for TO, since no reasonable person would even try to bring it to the game table in a game with even a semblance of normality.

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

The correct response to trying to chain-gate solars is to have the first one say, as he dismisses the second Gate the players try to cast from his candle:

I'm sorry, but the heavens require most of their mighiest defenders to remain there. Are you having difficulty greater than that with which I could help? May I offer counsel?

Getting a bunch of powerful outsiders to help should require roleplaying or massive expenditure of resources (eg casting all those Gates your damn self) or, preferably, both. Outsiders don't exist to fix PC problems - they have their own.

[Lycanthromancer]

Gate really shouldn't fail; it's a major expenditure of resources (normally, of course), and anybody casting a [Good] spell with that much kickback should have the forces of Good crawling all over itself trying to fulfill the needs of their champion of Good, since it's obviously an urgent need.

However, that is for 'normal' games, and not for RAW games. RAW abuse lets you pull in a solar because you stubbed your toe and need that cure minor wounds to top off your HP.

I'm sure the heavens would get kind of annoyed by it, but there's not a lot they can do, RAW.

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

Oh, I only meant if the players are trying to do it for "free" a la the "Solar, wish for a Candle of Invocation" route.

If they just cast a bunch of Gate spells and pay the costs, the heavens are getting very well rewarded whether or not it's for a serious and important cause.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm sorry, but the heavens require most of their mighiest defenders to remain there. Are you having difficulty greater than that with which I could help? May I offer counsel?
And the incorrect answer to that would be, "Oh, gee, if you guys up there have so much trouble with things, why don't you chain-gate a bunch of Solars yourself and have them take care of it? Why don't you just gate in a waaaaah-mbulance for yourself, and get someone to summon the world's smallest violin, you big-"

...Never survived past that hyphen part myself.

[taltamir]

ok, so if i understand it right.
the original printing of simulcrum did not limit to half HD, the update in savage species does?
The SRD specifies "and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD"

But then you get into "what is appropriate" because there are 6HD creatures that have level 9 spells as SLA?

Couldn't you get around the limit by getting a toenail of a specific solar with class levels sufficient to be 34HD total? or some other similar being...

[taltamir]

And the incorrect answer to that would be, "Oh, gee, if you guys up there have so much trouble with things, why don't you chain-gate a bunch of Solars yourself and have them take care of it? Why don't you just gate in a waaaaah-mbulance for yourself, and get someone to summon the world's smallest violin, you big-"

...Never survived past that hyphen part myself.

or use your 3 free wishes a day to make simulcrums of the most powerful being on the side of good...

A think an elegant solution is to house rule "SLA cost XP as the spell they mimic".

[sofawall]

Oh, I only meant if the players are trying to do it for "free" a la the "Solar, wish for a Candle of Invocation" route.

If they just cast a bunch of Gate spells and pay the costs, the heavens are getting very well rewarded whether or not it's for a serious and important cause.

How are the heavens getting "very well rewarded"?

[mostlyharmful]

How are the heavens getting "very well rewarded"?

A houserule I've run with and seen around is that xp cost spells funnel 'soul energy' into their casting, in the case of Gate that'd be into the plane of whatever you're calling.... that's some rarified xp so long as you're able to process it on the other end.

[Doc Roc]

I believe he means the costs as per rules re: hiring a caster. I am not saying I think this is how gate\wish work, I'm just suggesting that this may be what he's referring to.


So... Pieces of a solar. Aasimar are awful common. One suspects that you know, getting... I can't finish that sentence.

[taltamir]

A houserule I've run with and seen around is that xp cost spells funnel 'soul energy' into their casting, in the case of Gate that'd be into the plane of whatever you're calling.... that's some rarified xp so long as you're able to process it on the other end.

but that is a house rule... by RAW it doesn't go to the heavens, it gets consumed by the spell... which, indecently, draws its magical power from the weave and if a divine caster from the plane of negative OR positive energy.
So... yea...
although, its not like they care due to being infinite...


So... Pieces of a solar. Aasimar are awful common. One suspects that you know, getting... I can't finish that sentence.

AWESOME! But no... really, a toe nail clipping or a strand of hair is not that hard to get... especially since you have access to wish / such persons in the first place... you are asking a solar to cast a simulcrum of itself, it can provide a strand of its own hair... Not to mention if you REALLY need to eschew materials can take care of that...

By raw your spell component pouch contains the pieces of the armor of a 15th level warrior that was destroyed by a shatter spell (the cost of such a piece is less than 1gp and thus free)... among many other ludicrous items.

[Doc Roc]

Now, consumed by the spell is a really nebulous idea in RAW, so whatever.

That said, I'm going to weigh in and suggest that we ban simulacrum for a reason, and that reason is because unfortunately, RAW, it only downgrades things that are explicitly coupled to the HD. This is a huge problem because most 3.x writers never realized simulacrum existed.

[Foryn Gilnith]

which, indecently, draws its magical power from the weave and if a divine caster from the plane of negative OR positive energy.

Uh...
Is there a RAW citation for this?

[mostlyharmful]

but that is a house rule... by RAW it doesn't go to the heavens, it gets consumed by the spell... which, indecently, draws its magical power from the weave and if a divine caster from the plane of negative OR positive energy.
So... yea...
although, its not like they care due to being infinite...

As I said it was a houserule I've played under, plenty of other explanations, just given as a fluff justification for the mechanics.

[Zeful]

whats the commoner railgun thingy.

Deliberate ignorance of the rules of D&D in order to do things that are impossible with the rules.


but that is a house rule... by RAW it doesn't go to the heavens, it gets consumed by the spell... which, indecently, draws its magical power from the weave and if a divine caster from the plane of negative OR positive energy.Only in the Forgotten Realms.

[Boci]

Deliberate ignorance of the rules of D&D in order to do things that are impossible with the rules.

Alternativly pointing out a pretty big inconsistency with the round based format of D&D combat for fun.

[sofawall]

Deliberate ignorance of the rules of D&D in order to do things that are impossible with the rules.

What rule is broken?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Deliberate ignorance of the rules of D&D in order to do things that are impossible with the rules.


Not so much ignoring rules as extrapolating upon them.

[Zeful]

Not so much ignoring rules as extrapolating upon them.

Throwing a weapon without a range increment falls under the rules for throwing improvised weapons meaning 10ft range increment and 5 total range increments, as well as specific damage tables for the damage dealt. It's not actually possible for the commoner railgun to work under the rules.


What rule is broken?
Read that again, I'm not saying that the rules are broken, I'm saying that the rules prevent the railgun from working.

[sofawall]

Throwing a weapon without a range increment falls under the rules for throwing improvised weapons meaning 10ft range increment and 5 total range increments, as well as specific damage tables for the damage dealt. It's not actually possible for the commoner railgun to work under the rules.


Read that again, I'm not saying that the rules are broken, I'm saying that the rules prevent the railgun from working.

Alright, what specific rules prevent the railgun from working?

EDIT: Oh, you mean the part where it atomizes whatever is at the end? That isn't part of the commoner railgun, really. The railgun truly just involves something moving hilariously fast.

[Zeful]

Alright, what specific rules prevent the railgun from working?

EDIT: Oh, you mean the part where it atomizes whatever is at the end? That isn't part of the commoner railgun, really. The railgun truly just involves something moving hilariously fast.

Most people, when discussing the commoner railgun (or the pixie-marble-death-ray), use it as a way to destroy things, it can't do that.

[olentu]

Alright, what specific rules prevent the railgun from working?

EDIT: Oh, you mean the part where it atomizes whatever is at the end? That isn't part of the commoner railgun, really. The railgun truly just involves something moving hilariously fast.

Well if one does not try and push through the silly part where it actually does more than just move the item it should really be called the commoner long range six second transport system.

[Tanaric]

Slightly Delayed Commoner Mini-Teleportation?

[PhoenixRivers]

Slightly Delayed Commoner Mini-Teleportation?

If everyone's in position, it arrives in the same round it leaves.

How do you feed them? Pass turkey legs and water down the MCC system (Many-Commoners-Courier).

Protecting them is more problematic.

[Tanaric]

It was more a comment on the fact that you move one square at a time, albeit at a very rapid pace. Slightly delayed mini-teleport.

You protect them with housecats, but pray the cats don't turn on their owners. :smallwink:

[OracleofWuffing]

Bah, don't bother protecting them. Just pass down a fresh commoner to replace the dead one.

[PhoenixRivers]

The problem with "just replacing them" is that 1 lion means a LOT of replacing.

Though a single level 6 party, willing to hop in a portable hole to get passed down the line, that would work.

[Boci]

Most people, when discussing the commoner railgun (or the pixie-marble-death-ray), use it as a way to destroy things, it can't do that.

But if something travels 100 miles in 6 seconds it should be able to destroy something. But no reasonable person will ever insist this be useable in a game, its just fun to point out the flaw.

[PhoenixRivers]

But if something travels 100 miles in 6 seconds it should be able to destroy something. But no reasonable person will ever insist this be useable in a game, its just fun to point out the flaw.

And when you fire something from a bow, it should travel in a parabolic path.
And when you drown someone, it shouldn't heal them.

RAW and common sense have many points where they do not intersect.

[Boci]

And when you fire something from a bow, it should travel in a parabolic path.
And when you drown someone, it shouldn't heal them.

RAW and common sense have many points where they do not intersect.

That was kinda my point.

[hamishspence]

Parabolic path is only a problem at short distances.

If you are in a very long, straight, low-roofed corridor and hit a target at maximum range increment, a "Huh?" reaction from the players might be understandable.

If its a much shorter increment though- the distinction between "straight" and "tiny segment of the top of very large parabola" becomes pretty blurry.

[2xMachina]

Probably, D&D has low gravity, and thus, the arrow doesn't really fall much, if at all, even at long range. More so if it's fired strongly.

Shooting an arrow on the moon would be mostly straight. In fact, with the curvature, gravity might be the thing to keep the arrow parallel to the ground (though arrow parabola need to be large enough for the planet size).

Also, if you angle the shot up to compensate for gravity, and there's no air resistance (which doesn't exist in D&D), it's quite possible to have the force vector to be horizontal, and stay horizontal. IRL, the air resistance reduces the forward force of the arrow, but gravities' force remains, and thus, the force vector begins to point down after a while.

[Oslecamo]

Nightmares are 6 HD, and they get 2 9th level spells at will. You are giving a creature of 1 HD less half the abilities, usable a limited number of times per day.

D&D is really messed up sometimes.

I can point you to dozens of 5 and 6HD creatures that don't have SLAs whatsoever. And a wizard lv 4 can't cast 5th level spells, but a wizard lv5 can. So, I would say that claiming exceptions are the common rule while plainly ignoring RAW(the savage species progression) is munchkenery at it's finest worst. It can't even be called optimization anymore.




No limits are placed on magic item creation


All custom magic items must be aproved by the DM last time I checked.

PhoenixRivers:Drowning someone takes them to 0 HP...And then kills them anyway. The "healing" it's just the moment where your brain can't think properly due to the lack of oxygen and thus feels no pain, followed by oblivion.

[hamishspence]

That's why they whisk them out the moment it leaps from -8 hit points to 0 hp.

Still doesn't make sense, but apparently its RAW.

[Glimbur]

That's why they whisk them out the moment it leaps from -8 hit points to 0 hp.

Still doesn't make sense, but apparently its RAW.

Even sillier, there's no clause in the rules that says you can stop drowning after you start. So even if you pull the hapless person out of the water, they still die.

[hamishspence]

Drowning is one of those things that could have used a bit of clarification or better wording.

Maybe it requires a standard action during the same round as the guy is pulled out, to drain the water from his lungs? Possibly a DC15 Heal Check to do this?

[Doc Roc]

Actually, I've always wondered why titanic heroes of legend can drown to death. Answer: They can't, because most of them are wizards.

[Lysander]

Actually, I've always wondered why titanic heroes of legend can drown to death. Answer: They can't, because most of them are wizards.

Because they need to breathe?

[tbarrie]

which, indecently, draws its magical power from the weave and if a divine caster from the plane of negative OR positive energy.Uh...
Is there a RAW citation for this?

That spells derive power from these places, or that they do so in an indecent manner?

[Snails]

Gate really shouldn't fail; it's a major expenditure of resources (normally, of course), and anybody casting a [Good] spell with that much kickback should have the forces of Good crawling all over itself trying to fulfill the needs of their champion of Good, since it's obviously an urgent need.

If it is an actual urgent need, sure.

As I see it, the heart of the matter is that calling in a powerful outsider to do your bidding should always require an element of diplomacy and persuasion. Obviously certain creatures are pre-disposed to accede to all reasonable requests of heroic and good PCs. The question is what actions are reasonable.

The presence or absence somewhere else of 100 Solars is a potentially history changing event. When 100 Solars use 100 Wishes, that implies that 100 Balors elsewhere may feel some extra latitude to run amok for 24 hours.

When read very literally, the RAW fails to capture this aspect of the action involved.

If you want a no holds barred creature to do your bidding, you really should be using Summon Monster IX. Gate should be something else.

[Doc Roc]

Right, should but doesn't.


Because they need to breathe?

Mine normally do not.

[tbarrie]

Also, if you angle the shot up to compensate for gravity, and there's no air resistance (which doesn't exist in D&D), it's quite possible to have the force vector to be horizontal, and stay horizontal. IRL, the air resistance reduces the forward force of the arrow, but gravities' force remains, and thus, the force vector begins to point down after a while.

...

...

No.

[Tyndmyr]

The idea of chain gating solars can be easily mitigated by the dm rolling some % that the solar summoned has already used his wish. Its not as though they are just sitting around waiting to be summoned by some pc.

This is what I do. Sure, you can gate him in, but there's no guarantee he just woke up.

[Optimystik]

I can point you to dozens of 5 and 6HD creatures that don't have SLAs whatsoever. And a wizard lv 4 can't cast 5th level spells, but a wizard lv5 can. So, I would say that claiming exceptions are the common rule while plainly ignoring RAW(the savage species progression) is munchkenery at it's finest worst. It can't even be called optimization anymore.

Munchkinry or not, the fact that there is one exception (a low HD creature with supposedly high-HD abilities) means the situation is not cut and dry.

RAI and RAMS are definitely on your side, but RAW is another matter.


You protect them with housecats, but pray the cats don't turn on their owners. :smallwink:

Who saves the saved from the savior?

[Tyndmyr]

The material component is not an expensive one, thus the 'piece of a solar' half is in fact in your spell component pouch. Along with a piece of armour from a 15th level fighter for some spell or another. And lots of guano. That's also not something most DMs would interrupt.

I have never seen armor that was free. Even mundane armor has a significant price associated with it. Armor from a 15th level fighter is probably not mundane, and I see no reason why it's value would be lower than mundane armor. Thus, the idea that it would be in your spell component pouch is questionable, even by RAW.

The piece of a solar in your spell component pouch strikes me as something that, even if raw legal, your DM is likely to interrupt as implausible without additional justification. Many celestial creatures have listed prices for spell components(such as angel feathers), disqualifying them from this. Presuming that you can find an unlisted part of a creature in your pouch simply because the cost isn't listed isn't relying on RAW at all.

[taltamir]

If it is an actual urgent need, sure.

As I see it, the heart of the matter is that calling in a powerful outsider to do your bidding should always require an element of diplomacy and persuasion. Obviously certain creatures are pre-disposed to accede to all reasonable requests of heroic and good PCs. The question is what actions are reasonable.

The presence or absence somewhere else of 100 Solars is a potentially history changing event. When 100 Solars use 100 Wishes, that implies that 100 Balors elsewhere may feel some extra latitude to run amok for 24 hours.

When read very literally, the RAW fails to capture this aspect of the action involved.

If you want a no holds barred creature to do your bidding, you really should be using Summon Monster IX. Gate should be something else.

In general, summoning is horridly stupid in DnD... automatically enslave a summoned being up to twice your HD with a spell... it has unbeleiveable room for abuse.

Yes the CORRECT way to do it is "you have no automatic control over summoned beings, you must negotiate for their help".

And btw, the "summon monster" line has been revised (last I heard) to work via "creating" a... well creature like thing out of magic, temporarily. So I guess they are excluded from the bargaining for help. But gate / planer binding requires negotiation.

[Ascension]

Every time I see this thread's title I misread it as "Chain-Gatling Solars?" and think somebody's come up with an minigun-like artifact for Exalted, like a multi-barreled revolving automatic concussive essence cannon.

And then I realize how it's spelled and know that it's just another thread talking about the exploitable flaws of 3.5 spellcasting and it makes me sad.

[Snails]

I do not have a problem with Summon Monster spells giving strong control over a creature from a specific hand-picked-by-the-designer list. But even that should allow some degree of RPing the specific creature.

Gate has two significant design flaws:
(1) A HD limit is too sloppy a means of measuring the potency of creatures at mid-levels or higher.
(2) Giving absolute control for an "immediate" service is simply too open to abuse.

In important corner cases, #2 obliterates the disadvantages of Calling over Summoning.

Summon Monster spells specific limitations on what the creature can do.* In principle, Calling needs similar restrictions.

*"A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. "

[Johel]

This is what I do. Sure, you can gate him in, but there's no guarantee he just woke up.

Well... If you go for the Gate + Mind Rape, it doesn't matter if he woke up or not, since he'll stay around forever. Your chain will just progress slower. And you'll need days rather than hours to achieve absolute power over time and matter.

The alternative is :
Day 1 : Alpha Solar

Gate a Solar and Mind Rape him.

Day 2 : Simulacrum n°1

Ask the Solar to use his "Wish" SLAto make a Simulacrum of himself.
Instruct the Original Solar to never use his Wish SLA ever again, unless ordered by you.

Day 3 : things get interesting...

Ask the Simulacrum Solar to use his "Wish" SLA to make a Simulacrum of the original Solar who still has his 1/day "Wish" SLA (since he was instructed not to use it).
Simulacrum Solar n°2 appears.
Ask Simulacrum Solar n°2 to use his "Wish" SLA to make a Simulacrum of the original Solar who still has his 1/day "Wish" SLA (since he was instructed not to use it).
Simulacrum Solar n°3 appears.
Ask Simulacrum Solar n°3 to use his "Wish" SLA to make a Simulacrum of the original Solar who still has his 1/day "Wish" SLA (since he was instructed not to use it).
Simulacrum Solar n°4 appears.
Ask Simulacrum Solar n°4 to use his "Wish" SLA to make a Simulacrum of the original Solar who still has his 1/day "Wish" SLA (since he was instructed not to use it).
...

Day 4 : You must construct additional pylons

You know have a number [X] of Simulacrum Solars.
Do you have enough Solars ? Y/N
Y : Tippy mind rape you and add your solars to his collection
N : You get X numbers of Simulacrum Solars every 6 seconds.

Day 5 : You must construct additional pylons...again

You know have 14.400 * [X] Simulacrum Solars.
Do you have enough Solars ? Y/N
Y : Tippy mind rape you and add your solars to his collection
N : You get 14.400 * [X] numbers of Simulacrum Solars every 6 seconds.

Day Y : All good things end...

Big light
Good morning, mortal. You have been abducted and judged by the Holy Lords of Celestia. The charges are... weakening of the multiverse. The verdict is... guilty. You are about to be annihilated. Don't Panic. Thank you for your cooperation.
Even bigger light
Darkness

[Lycanthromancer]

Day Y : All good things end...

Big light
Good morning, mortal. You have been abducted and judged by the Holy Lords of Celestia. The charges are... weakening of the multiverse. The verdict is... guilty. You are about to be annihilated. Don't Panic. Thank you for your cooperation.
You respond: "And how would that be? I borrowed one solar. Nobody has complained. If you want him back, feel free."

[Johel]

You respond: "And how would that be? I borrowed one solar. Nobody has complained. If you want him back, feel free."

Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu ? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu)

[Foryn Gilnith]

Armor from a 15th level fighter is probably not mundane, and I see no reason why it's value would be lower than mundane armor. Thus, the idea that it would be in your spell component pouch is questionable, even by RAW.

It's a piece of a fighter's armor. A single piece. That's like a third of a single chain link in the fighter's entire chain armor.

[OracleofWuffing]

You respond: "And how would that be? I borrowed one solar. Nobody has complained. If you want him back, feel free."
Upon an initial glance, it appears that there isn't an Inevitable specifically for "those who weaken the multiverse." Only thing you could be gotten for is violating a fundamental principal, and then they'd have to prove that keeping the universe sane is a fundamental principal, which given Chaotic Stupid characters, it isn't. So, yeah, looks like a by-the-books lawful god has nothing against you.

Which is silly, because that's exactly the kind of the reason why Inevitables are supposed to exist, but hey, I don't write this stuff.

[Johel]

Upon an initial glance, it appears that there isn't an Inevitable specifically for "those who weaken the multiverse." Only thing you could be gotten for is violating a fundamental principal, and then they'd have to prove that keeping the universe sane is a fundamental principal, which given Chaotic Stupid characters, it isn't. So, yeah, looks like a by-the-books lawful god has nothing against you.

Which is silly, because that's exactly the kind of the reason why Inevitables are supposed to exist, but hey, I don't write this stuff.

Lawful Good gods, however, get this :

Mind rape a Solar (=> EVIL)
Kept a Solar captive for at least 4 days (=> Prevented him to fight Evil)


Also, any self-respecting DM who doesn't want to go for "rocks fall" will seize that opportunity to throw Mechanus at you.

[Volkov]

My experience has shown that chain-gating twenty four age category Celestial Gold dragons is more powerful a tactic than chain-gating solars. :smallbiggrin:

[Somewhere]

Can a god jumplomance his solars back from mind rape?

[Volkov]

Can a god jumplomance his solars back from mind rape?

I'm not sure, but Zaphkiel, the highest of all the known Archons, if not of all the known Celestials, if not of all the celestials period, would take an incredibly dim view of mind-raping some of his best agents. Which would probably lead to your rear-end being handed to you on a golden platter by an army of angry, angry epic level solar clerics.

[OracleofWuffing]

Lawful Good gods, however, get this :

Mind rape a Solar (=> EVIL)
Kept a Solar captive for at least 4 days (=> Prevented him to fight Evil)


Also, any self-respecting DM who doesn't want to go for "rocks fall" will seize that opportunity to throw Mechanus at you.
Oh, indeed.

But a Lawful Good God that ceases being Lawful might find him/her/itself short a number of worshippers. Not enough to god-fall, but enough to be uncomfortably concerned and possibly undermine the cause of whatever's going on that he needs the solars for in the first place. Wait, did this just turn into a plot hook? :smalltongue:

[Volkov]

Oh, indeed.

But a Lawful Good God that ceases being Lawful might find him/her/itself short a number of worshippers. Not enough to god-fall, but enough to be uncomfortably concerned and possibly undermine the cause of whatever's going on that he needs the solars for in the first place. Wait, did this just turn into a plot hook? :smalltongue:

It wouldn't matter, because Zaphkiel would take you to the seventh layer against your will, which will probably erase you from existence due to your evil actions.

[Johel]

Oh, indeed.

But a Lawful Good God that ceases being Lawful might find him/her/itself short a number of worshippers. Not enough to god-fall, but enough to be uncomfortably concerned and possibly undermine the cause of whatever's going on that he needs the solars for in the first place. Wait, did this just turn into a plot hook? :smalltongue:

His name is Pelor.
He registers as Neutral Good.
Solars follow him without question.
...yet the bastard is evil, I tell you !!

[OracleofWuffing]

It wouldn't matter, because Zaphkiel would take you to the seventh layer against your will, which will probably erase you from existence due to your evil actions.
...Then a Simulacrum safely wishes me back into existence... :smallbiggrin:

[Lycanthromancer]

They're simulacra of a [Good] creature, and so have the [Good] subtype. You're creating more [Good] creatures, meaning you're increasing the quantity of [Good] in the multiverse.

That's a [Good] thing, right?

It's only one solar. The needs of the many, and so on.

[Volkov]

...Then a Simulacrum safely wishes me back into existence... :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately Zaphkiel would know about yoru Simulacrum, and would destroy it before hand with the same means.

[Emmerask]

...Then a Simulacrum safely wishes me back into existence... :smallbiggrin:

But Mystra just said no and there is no more magic for you :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

But Mystra just said no and there is no more magic for you :smallbiggrin:

Bah, she dies for that.

[OracleofWuffing]

His name is Pelor.
He registers as Neutral Good.
Solars follow him without question.
...yet the bastard is evil, I tell you !!
You've got effectively a buttload of wishes. Bribe him.
Alternatively, point behind him and say, "Hey, look, someone is using zombies to put out the sun!" and run away as clumsily as you can. Bonus points if you can do the Hanna-Barbera hover-in-mid-air bicycling sound. By the time he catches on, it'll be too late.


They're simulacra of a [Good] creature, and so have the [Good] subtype. You're creating more [Good] creatures, meaning you're increasing the quantity of [Good] in the multiverse.

That's a [Good] thing, right?
Sadly, no. It's one of those [evil] is evil type things, that's kind of the whole theme behind Vile Darkness.


Unfortunately Zaphkiel would know about yoru Simulacrum, and would destroy it before hand with the same means.
That'd be killing a bunch of [Good] creatures for a not-crime they haven't yet committed. I'd, uh, ironically would have just about every good and/or lawful god fighting for and against that.


But Mystra just said no and there is no more magic for you :smallbiggrin:
Hm... Checking Mystra's Dogma from Faiths and Pantheons (I don't usually play in Faerun), it appears one of the things here is "Strive to use magic less as your powers develop," so I don't see why she'd say "no" to low-level characters using lots of magic, other than Rule 0. Besides, certainly, using a level 9 spell without costing myself the 5,000XP+ falls into the realm of "Use magic deftly and efficiently.":smallwink:

[taltamir]

You respond: "And how would that be? I borrowed one solar. Nobody has complained. If you want him back, feel free."

I borrowed a solar, there is an INFINITE amount of them!

[Volkov]

You've got effectively a buttload of wishes. Bribe him.
Alternatively, point behind him and say, "Hey, look, someone is using zombies to put out the sun!" and run away as clumsily as you can. Bonus points if you can do the Hanna-Barbera hover-in-mid-air bicycling sound. By the time he catches on, it'll be too late.


Sadly, no. It's one of those [evil] is evil type things, that's kind of the whole theme behind Vile Darkness.


That'd be killing a bunch of [Good] creatures for a not-crime they haven't yet committed. I'd, uh, ironically would have just about every good and/or lawful god fighting for and against that.


Hm... Checking Mystra's Dogma from Faiths and Pantheons (I don't usually play in Faerun), it appears one of the things here is "Strive to use magic less as your powers develop," so I don't see why she'd say "no" to low-level characters using lots of magic, other than Rule 0. Besides, certainly, using a level 9 spell without costing myself the 5,000XP+ falls into the realm of "Use magic deftly and efficiently.":smallwink:

Much like how no evil god or outsider really messes with Asmodeus, No Good outsider or god would dare raise a finger against Zaphkiel. As the embodiment of lawful goodness, he gets to break all of his own rules.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'm totally going to roll up a Lawful Good Paladin just for the sake of killing countless innocent Solar Simulacrums in the name of Zaphkiel.:smallbiggrin:

[9mm]

Unfortunately Zaphkiel would know about yoru Simulacrum, and would destroy it before hand with the same means.

Please remember to duck the players handbook being thrown at you.

Arbitrarily killing a player because you didn't bother to set limits at char-gen or at champaign start is reasonable grounds for the player to get pissed: DM fiat is about as well accepted as player's gamebreaking.

[Volkov]

Please remember to duck the players handbook being thrown at you.

Arbitrarily killing a player because you didn't bother to set limits at char-gen or at champaign start is reasonable grounds for the player to get pissed: DM fiat is about as well accepted as player's gamebreaking.

I see you have never played a game where because of one tiny detail you forgot at the beginning of the game, makes you unable to complete it at a later point.

[9mm]

I see you have never played a game where because of one tiny detail you forgot at the beginning of the game, makes you unable to complete it at a later point.

happens all the time: but then again I'm used to going up against 300 Kythons as a normal encounter; and expecting that to happen. The idea that a player not being pissed because his DM can't be bothered to TALK WITH HIS PLAYERS about what is or is not acceptable in a game until after said player MADE THE INVESTMENT in a tactic is ridiculous. Adding quick sitch modifiers so the spell doesn't work, or arbitrarily adding negative effects when a simple "that spell doesn't exist" during a level up would do simply pisses people off.