[spoiler/speculation] about Girard

[Morquard]

The first thing I noticed in today's comic was that Girard's and Haley's hair are exactly the same shade.

I don't think it ever came up, since in the Scribbles his hair is more yellowish than Haley-orange, and you never saw them side by side too.

Anyway... in #681 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) we see Haley's father... Yeah sure, they're all stick figures, but does anyone else have the feeling that Girard and Haley's dad could be one and the same?
If Girard grew a full beard it would take care of the tatoo. Or he could just hide it under an illusion.

I just find it strange that they have the same exact same hair color and the Giant gives us a picture of Haley's dad just 10 strips ago. Not to mention Haley's rather shocked look when she sees Girards image.

Anyway that was the first thing I thought when I saw the illusion, did anyone else feel that way too?

[Morty]

Girard might be Haley's father, but it'd be a really cheap twist. Besides, Soon was very old when Shojo was a boy. So the timeline doesn't really check out. Girard might be already dead for all we know.

[Zappy]

I didn't make the connection at first, but now that you mention it... there is a similarity. I think it'd be a matter of timing though. I believe there is a timeline thread around here with all the known dates.

EDIT: I just checked the thread. According to known dating conventions there is roughly 40 years difference from when Girard and the others did their stuff until Haley's birth. Albeit he is an illusionist and could make himself seem younger the fact that he was already supposed to be guarding the gate it seems unlikely. Though that may still be a familial resemblance. We'll have to wait and see.

[Morquard]

Hmm, you're right, the timing is a bit weird.
But then the entire internal Azure City timeline seems rather inconsistent anyway, but there are enough threads about THAT already.

Ok, maybe not Haley's father then, but maybe Grandfather?

Or he used illusions to appear younger to have better chances with the good looking young women (like Haley's mom)? :)

[Kaytara]

I already thought about how Girard turning out to be Haley's father (or at least related) would be a good way for him to get rebooted into the story after Haley has decided to finish the main quest first before getting to him.

Seeing Haley's shocked expression just strengthens my suspicions.

[Morquard]

I already thought about how Girard turning out to be Haley's father (or at least related) would be a good way for him to get rebooted into the story after Haley has decided to finish the main quest first before getting to him.
True it would explain why he's not there in person, and give the Order a reason to rescue him.
But then how would a bunch of low level thieves and generals capture an epic level illusionist and more importantly hold on to him and keep him imprisoned.
I have to admit that part doesn't make much sense yet, but i'm sure there's something to explain that too.

[Kobold-Bard]

I actually think Girard looks more like The Giant (at least according to his avatar).

Perhaps Girard is the DM's (=Rich's) DMNPC who'll save he party at a crutial moment, and have all kinds of super=powers.

Or maybe Rich has a thing for illusionist characters, so he made one to look like him.

Either way Girard is not Hayley's father, but The Giants personal avatar in the OotS world.

Please don't ban me

[Starbuck_II]

I didn't make the connection at first, but now that you mention it... there is a similarity. I think it'd be a matter of timing though. I believe there is a timeline thread around here with all the known dates.

EDIT: I just checked the thread. According to known dating conventions there is roughly 40 years difference from when Girard and the others did their stuff until Haley's birth. Albeit he is an illusionist and could make himself seem younger the fact that he was already supposed to be guarding the gate it seems unlikely. Though that may still be a familial resemblance. We'll have to wait and see.

Couldn't an Epic creature just take that Extend lifespan epic feat?

[hamishspence]

Girard being Haley's grandfather isn't out of the question though.

Still- might feel a little contrived for some, since we've already had one "long-lost relative" suddenly turning up.

[TaintedDeity]

Haley being shocked at the illusion doesn't make me think Girard is her father; it makes me think she's shocked that a giant purple glowy Girard has come out of nowhere. :smallwink:
She's shocked in the panel that the purple glow appears in too.

[JonahFalcon]

Anyone notice the Sapphire Guard tattoo on his left cheek? (NO! NOT *THAT* CHEEK!)

[Optimystik]

Anyone notice the Sapphire Guard tattoo on his left cheek? (NO! NOT *THAT* CHEEK!)

I think that's a drake tattoo (Hence, "Draketooth.")

Also, it's purple, and he hates Soon, so the chances of him wearing a SG tattoo are pretty nil.

[Spirited Charge]

I think that the grandfather idea has some appeal to it.

On a side note, was Girard a wizard or a sorcerer? If sorcerer, than wouldn't there have been a pretty good chance that Haley (or her father) could have also manifested those powers?

[Morquard]

Not 100% sure on this, but I think only Wizards can choose a specialised school, so since he's an Illusionist that would mean he's a wizard.

Also the whole "He hates Soon, so he'd rather kill them all" line of thoughs: Thats been along time ago. Yes, they didn't get along too well and in the end nearly fought against each other, but thats a couple of years ago now. Even if the illusion is old, that Girard looks older than the scribble Girard, so he might have calmed down.

[DEG]

"a sigar is just a sigar", anyone?

[JonahFalcon]

I think that's a drake tattoo (Hence, "Draketooth.")

Also, it's purple, and he hates Soon, so the chances of him wearing a SG tattoo are pretty nil.

Check when Belkar activated the Mark way back when. Look familiar?

[Darius1020]

Now this may sound crazy, but maybe, just maybe, two people in the world can have the same color hair

I know, I know it sounds ridiculous

[Shale]

I'm just posting so I can point at my signature.

[Aaron]

Now this may sound crazy, but maybe, just maybe, two people in the world can have the same color hair

I know, I know it sounds ridiculous

That is ridiculous and imposible!:smalltongue: There is no way that two people with the same hair color are not related to eachothe...


Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes, characters that have a similar hairstyle just have a similar hairstyle. How many hairstyles do you think there are that can be drawn in stick figure style, anyway?

Nevermind. I'm just messing with you.:smalltongue:

[Prime32]

Haley being shocked at the illusion doesn't make me think Girard is her father; it makes me think she's shocked that a giant purple glowy Girard has come out of nowhere. :smallwink:
She's shocked in the panel that the purple glow appears in too.Oh my god Haley's father is a purple glow!

[factotum]

Seeing Haley's shocked expression just strengthens my suspicions.

But she already had a shocked expression two panels earlier, where she noticed that the spell had activated but clearly BEFORE the illusion appeared. Not every shocked expression is because a long-lost relative appears before you!

[Conuly]

Oh my god Haley's father is a purple glow!

Oooh, like that one TV show with that girl? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1AA0bKJ1ig)

[Zeful]

Check when Belkar activated the Mark way back when. Look familiar?

Checked, and they look nothing alike Belkar's MoJ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0568.html) is three seperate "strokes" two of which interconnect. Girard's tattoo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0693.html) on the other hand, is quite clearly a draconic shape that is at least four "strokes" which are all connected.

[Morquard]

Yes, I said I know its stick figures and theres only so many ways to draw hair.
But its not the same hairstyle, but the same color. Even in Azure City where everyone got blue hair the important people had at least different shades of blue hair.

Girard so far has also never been drawn with a beard (except a small goate I think), now suddenly he has one, pretty similar to Haley's dad. He got the same hair color as Haley, while before it was shown as being more yellow.

So yes, maybe it means nothing at all, or maybe it does mean exactly that. Thats why its called a speculation.

Yes she had the shocked expression earlier, but Roy and V apperently got over the shock already, Roy is smiling already, but Haley is still shocked.

Of course a single shocked expression makes no long lost relative, same as a same hair color might not mean they're related. But all those little things together? Well its your call if you believe it or not

[Optimystik]

Check when Belkar activated the Mark way back when. Look familiar?

No, not really.


Not 100% sure on this, but I think only Wizards can choose a specialised school, so since he's an Illusionist that would mean he's a wizard.

That's not a hard and fast rule in OotS. Xykon has been referred to as a "Necromancer" but he is clearly not a wizard.

[Nimrod's Son]

The first thing I noticed in today's comic was that Girard's and Haley's hair are exactly the same shade.

I don't think it ever came up, since in the Scribbles his hair is more yellowish than Haley-orange, and you never saw them side by side too.
Really? In the threads I've been reading, there seems to be about a 75% chance that the idea gets brought up every time there is any kind of lengthy discussion involving Girard.

Personally, I find the idea that an epic-level illusionist would change his entire appearance except for his hair colour (in order to leave a clue to his true identity) to be more than a little bit contrived.

[Conuly]

Personally, I find the idea that an epic-level illusionist would change his entire appearance except for his hair colour (in order to leave a clue to his true identity) to be more than a little bit contrived.

Ah, but that's just what he WANTS you to think.

[Morquard]

Personally, I find the idea that an epic-level illusionist would change his entire appearance except for his hair colour (in order to leave a clue to his true identity) to be more than a little bit contrived.
Did he change everything? He grew a beard and got a new haircut, that's hardly feats requiring an epic level illusionist :)
Maybe the more he changes his appearance the harder it is to hold, or the easier to detect? I don't really know how that works in D&D.
And that he'd appear in the illusion as his real self is sort of expected, theres a good reason the people calling it actually know him, so nothing to hide from them.

Also his kids (no matter now if that is Haley or her dad) would inherit his real genes and his real appearance not the illusion he made up, so maybe thats one reason he stuck pretty much with it, just changed minor things?

Also he wasn't really trying to hide from anyone... but that of course works against my theory as well, because it would not explain why he went by a fake name.

[Dark_Stryke]

Yes, I said I know its stick figures and theres only so many ways to draw hair.
But its not the same hairstyle, but the same color. Even in Azure City where everyone got blue hair the important people had at least different shades of blue hair.

Miko and Kazumi both have black hair. Are you suggesting that they're related? After all, they have the same hair colour.


I don't think Haley and Girard are related in any way. He could theoretically have been her grandfather, but we know her daddy was a first edition thief (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0008.html). We also know her dad is currently imprisoned, and I doubt a powerful spellcaster who had been masquerading as a rogue for some reason would remain captured for long.

Also, Girard's last name is Draketooth. If we assume the OotS world works like ours, in that generally offspring take their father's last name, how did Haley end up with the last name Starshine? Unless Girard married under a fake name for some reason, or Haley's dad is his long-lost son or something equally contrived.

[bluewind95]

I actually think Girard looks more like The Giant (at least according to his avatar).

Perhaps Girard is the DM's (=Rich's) DMNPC who'll save he party at a crutial moment, and have all kinds of super=powers.

Or maybe Rich has a thing for illusionist characters, so he made one to look like him.

Either way Girard is not Hayley's father, but The Giants personal avatar in the OotS world.


Yes! I'm not the only one who thinks so!

Yeah, I totally think Girard is Rich in disguise.

[DBJack]

Miko and Kazumi both have black hair. Are you suggesting that they're related? After all, they have the same hair colour.

But this is red hair. There have been varied shades of black, and there have also been varied shades of red hair a few other times in the past. The fact that a critical character in a location where a plot important character that looks visually similar has vanished isn't too hard to fit together.

*edit* Couldn't find evidence variations of red hair. I remembered seeing some shades of red hair somewhere, but where I looked I was mistaken. Pompey's hair is more redish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html), but the dwarf assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html) and various random people in crowds have the same color as Haley, Ian, and Girard. I'm not sure what I meant by 'black hair.' But black hair is the only alturnative to Azurites that don't have blue hair, and it's not like there's a ton of shade options flying around for that alternative color.

**edit** Aha, variations of dark gray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html) make a crowd more varied. Not sure what point I was trying to make before with black hair. Maybe Miko and Kazumi are related.



Also, Girard's last name is Draketooth. If we assume the OotS world works like ours, in that generally offspring take their father's last name, how did Haley end up with the last name Starshine? Unless Girard married under a fake name for some reason, or Haley's dad is his long-lost son or something equally contrived.

"Draketooth" could be made up so that the thieve's guild couldn't take his adventuring loot. Girard joined the party to be a tracker later in the game: Serini calls him "the new kid."



And to make a point for the Ian=Girard camp, remember when Bozzak taunted Haley? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) He said that the west continent had sent a letter that made Ian Starshine leave immediately, something "too important to tell Haley." Haley's mother died when Haley was little; what else could be so important Ian had to rush out and take care of it without an explantation?

[Herald Alberich]

"Draketooth" could be made up so that the thieve's guild couldn't take his adventuring loot. Girard joined the party to be a tracker later in the game: Serini calls him "the new kid."

No, Dorukan was the new kid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html). Girard was the crush. He's grown his hair and beard out a bit since then, but doesn't look too much different. He picked up some visible shoes.


And to make a point for the Ian=Girard camp, remember when Bozzak taunted Haley? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) He said that the west continent had sent a letter that made Ian Starshine leave immediately, something "too important to tell Haley." Haley's mother died when Haley was little; what else could be so important Ian had to rush out and take care of it without an explantation?

Any number of things. When you're a (presumably) high-level and notorious thief, you pick up a lot of enemies and old skeletons in your closet. We know nothing about Ian's history.

[Conuly]

what else could be so important Ian had to rush out and take care of it without an explantation?

Ian has another child he's supposed to be supporting on the other continent who turned up sick or something. Somebody threatened to harm Haley if Ian didn't get his butt in gear now. Ian's turning state's witness against the Thieves' Guild and thought that being overseas in the interim would be safer than staying in Greysky... and somebody had falsely told him he'd be killed if he hung around any longer.

Besides, Bozzik is the one behind the letter. Unless you're saying that Girard is working with him? That's about the only way I can see that letter idea working when you consider that Girard and the other Scribblies, as near as I can tell, have tried to keep a low-ish profile for the past several decades. EVEN Girard, who presumably didn't like this plan, isn't exactly well-known. So it's not likely that Bozzik's contacts on the Western continent knew 1. that Girard exists 2. that he's Ian's relation and 3. that claiming he's in danger will get Ian over there fast (and in some way that prevents Ian from trying to contact Girard first - they have to be pretty high level to *actually* incapacitate the guy, right? unless they're very good at forgery).

That Girard and Ian could be related, I can buy that. If nothing else, it's fun to talk about. But I don't think Girard could be part of that whole plot to get Ian overseas ASAP. Not unless things are even more convoluted than we realize.

[Dark_Stryke]

But this is red hair. There have been varied shades of black, and there have also been varied shades of red hair a few other times in the past. The fact that a critical character in a location where a plot important character that looks visually similar has vanished isn't too hard to fit together.

*edit* Couldn't find evidence variations of red hair. I remembered seeing some shades of red hair somewhere, but where I looked I was mistaken. Pompey's hair is more redish (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0257.html), but the dwarf assassin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html) and various random people in crowds have the same color as Haley, Ian, and Girard. I'm not sure what I meant by 'black hair.' But black hair is the only alturnative to Azurites that don't have blue hair, and it's not like there's a ton of shade options flying around for that alternative color.

**edit** Aha, variations of dark gray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html) make a crowd more varied. Not sure what point I was trying to make before with black hair. Maybe Miko and Kazumi are related.

Possible, but unlikely. :smalltongue:


"Draketooth" could be made up so that the thieve's guild couldn't take his adventuring loot. Girard joined the party to be a tracker later in the game: Serini calls him "the new kid."

Interesting theory.


And to make a point for the Ian=Girard camp, remember when Bozzak taunted Haley? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) He said that the west continent had sent a letter that made Ian Starshine leave immediately, something "too important to tell Haley." Haley's mother died when Haley was little; what else could be so important Ian had to rush out and take care of it without an explantation?

Also interesting. It's also possible that the Giant has multiple, unrelated plot elements set up on one continent (What happened to the good ol' days when everyone thought Haley's dad was being held by Elan's dad?).

A few problems with the theory that Ian=Girard are:

1. The timeline. If we assume Girard was very young when he joined up with his adventuring party, say, 19, we've got to account for the 40-ish years between then and Haley's birth. I don't know Haley's exact age, but isn't she mid-twenties? Say 25. That would put Girard at about 84 years old now (And roughly 59 when she was born!).

2. If he was a member of the thieves' guild, joined an adventuring party under an assumed name, and became a mighty illusionist, why the hell would he re-join the thieves' guild using illusions to appear as a different, presumably third individual? No, that makes no sense at all. When you have the means to create a perfect new identity for yourself you don't tempt fate by joining up with the people you're hiding from. Girard would know that there are spellcasters in the guild. A poorly timed Detect Magic, True Seeing, or Dispel Magic, and he's suddenly got a lot of 'splaining to do, at best.

3. From a narrative standpoint, it doesn't seem to serve any purpose except to make the author look clever. "Lol guys, Ian Starshine was Girard Draketooth all along. Bet you didn't see that coming!" That said, a writer of the Giant's skill could probably pull it off in a way that made sense.

Now, I don't believe Girard and Haley are related at all, but if they were, I'd bet that he was her grandfather. It makes a little more sense. Ian Starshine could potentially be Draketooth's son who ran away for any number of reasons (didn't like Girard's lifestyle, wanted a different environment for his family, didn't get along with him, wanderlust, whatever). So, some time before Haley was born he leaves his homeland and ends up in Greysky city. He falls in love, joins the thieves' guild, and starts a family. Then, years later, when Bozzok wants him out of the way, he gets a letter from the Western Continent saying "we have your father and we'll release him for (some amount of gp)". So he takes off without telling Haley where he's going, because for whatever reason he doesn't want her to know about her grandfather and we get one big awkward family reunion in about a hundred strips.

Of course, I still don't buy it. But It's one way it could have happened. Which it didn't. :smallbiggrin:

[Hatchet]

I have to agree, now that he has a beard, Girard does look like The Giant :smallwink:

[Surfing HalfOrc]

When people speculate/deny the possibility of Girard being Haley's grandfather, why do they seem to think he's her paternal grandfather? He could well be Haley's Maternal side grandfather, better known as Mia Starshine's father!

Of course, in the interest of creating a goofy, but by the evidence presented plausable, theory:

Girard is Haley and Elan's time warped son! Haley's haircolor, Elan's hair wave, and when Haley tried to tell Elan her secret, she says "I'm not exactly what you would call..." and she cuts off at that point.

Actually, I am of the theory that the Draketooth clan is descended from a copper dragon (and Haley throws Durkon off her trail with the Truth, which Durkon assumes is just a made up joke), to keep her dragon lineage hidden.

I once came across a gender-bent Haley in the House of Horrors thread in Arts and Crafts, and s/he looked almost exactly like Girard without the facial tattoo. And with a name like Draketooth, you gotta know there's a dragon in the family woodpile somewhere!

Anyways, that's the theory. Make of ot what you will...

[Verin299]

Just wanted to point out, there seems a similarity between the idea of a thief career and illusionist. Haley's dad always told her never to be truthful. Well, an illusionist goes along with that idea in the sense that it masks the truth.

[Asta Kask]

I think threads like these provide an excellent place for studying pareidolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia) in action. Random coincidences in drawing style, etc. being spun into long, elaborate threads of narrative. :smalltongue:

[Watcher]

My view: with additions in brackets


"Same hair color, different hair style, different facial hair style, different clothing sense, different classes, different levels, different age, different tactics, different intentions, [different name,] different presence and absence of tattoos" isn't exactly enough evidence for any similarity between Haley's Dad and Girard by any means. Same hair color isn't "uncanny" as others would think [have said]. Unless more stuff comes up, I'm not convinced in any way. Of course, I might just be wrong, and he might be related to her, but it just doesn't have much any foreshadowing that would be satisfying.

[Ranzunar]

I think that Girard is actually pulling a Dread Pirate Robert's switch like they do in "The Princess Bride." The real Girard has passed on his role as guardian of the gate to possibly many people and the current person to do this is Ian Starshine. Each new person would get the tattoo and take on the name of Girard. What better illusion than to deceive with reality? My theory is that anyone wandering desert long enough might encounter one of these guardians and is trained to subsequently take their place. Which would make it even more awesome if Ian were training Right Eye's still surviving kid there as well. And now more possibilities spawn like wild fire. Obviously this is all speculation and probably not what is actually occurring but wanted to leave my two cents here nonetheless.

[HotAndCold]

I think that Girard is actually pulling a Dread Pirate Robert's switch like they do in "The Princess Bride." The real Girard has passed on his role as guardian of the gate to possibly many people and the current person to do this is Ian Starshine. Each new person would get the tattoo and take on the name of Girard. What better illusion than to deceive with reality? My theory is that anyone wandering desert long enough might encounter one of these guardians and is trained to subsequently take their place. Which would make it even more awesome if Ian were training Right Eye's still surviving kid there as well. And now more possibilities spawn like wild fire. Obviously this is all speculation and probably not what is actually occurring but wanted to leave my two cents here nonetheless.

I find it just a little doubtful that a female goblin could pass as a male human. :smalltongue: