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View Full Version : 4E A couple of real quick dragon questions



The J Pizzel
2009-12-10, 10:38 AM
First the party:
5 level 5 PC (Warden, Rogue, Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard). So it's a pretty good party makup and the players are pretty tactical players. So consider them pretty good.

Next, a very quick summary:
Refugees from goblinoid tribe has descended from nearby mountain caves, through forests and are seeking refuge outside a medium size town. Goblinoids are being treated very badly by townsfolk and are starting to get a little hostile. Mayor and city council asks players to intervene.

Next:
Players find out that the tribes caves were taken over by dragon (color to be determined) whose claimed lordship over the complex and it's inhabitants. Refugees escaped through tunnels and that's how their here.

Not quite the BBEG:
Fight their way to the dragon and encounter the dragon. If the PCs are willing to talk, they find out the dragon was removed from his upper mountain range home by a bigger baddie (assuming another dragon) and will happily return if the PC's can clear him out.

The actual BBEG:
I have no idea what to use.

Questions for the Playgrounders:
What color should the first dragon be? Blue or Green?

What creature could have scarred off said dragon? It must be high enough to scare off a dragon, but low enough for the players to still fight (levels 7-9 I assume)? Red? Maybe different monster entirely?

Would the first dragon (the Blue or Green) turn on the players after they've cleaned out his home, just cause he's evil?

Conditions:
Only creatures please. I don't want to use a upper level mage or lich or anything like that. I want some good 'ole fashioned fantasy creatures.

Thanks.

Jothki
2009-12-10, 10:46 AM
A slightly bigger dragon, who was forced out of home by an even bigger dragon.

Dekkah
2009-12-10, 11:03 AM
I would go with a green Dragon (you description fit it well - devious and cunnying).
I'll point out right now that your players might very well just charge in without question (or just ignore/dont trust him). Just be ready for that situation. you can deal with this 2 ways :
1- You take a dragon a little bit too strong for them and force them to surrender (they should level up a bit during the "clear the mountain" part and be able to beat him after).
2 - If they beat him without learning of the problems in the mountain, they wont find the dragon treasure - and probably will seek for it. you drop a hint that the dragon was rumored to lived it the mountain (History check), and continue form there (i am pretty sur they will fall for that).

And for what monsters to use in the mountain. To cower a dragon, he need to be really treathened (or he would deal with it himself). I 'd use something that is immune to his breath (green = poison, so i'd probably go for undead).
An idea would be that the dragon, while expanding/diging his lair, found a rift to the shadowfell, and some monsters poured from it. He was forced to retreat and try to regain some minions/power/treasure to be able to retake his lair (wich is what he was doing before the players found him using what is left of his minions).

nightwyrm
2009-12-10, 11:05 AM
Why not use a metalic for the refugee dragon. Using something like an adamantine, brass or copper might make the PCs more likely to at least attempt to talk instead of fight.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 11:14 AM
I'm sure I caught a line somewhere about White's being frequently displaced by Silvers and/or Reds, actually.

As it's 4e, that even works ok level-wise, as both reds and silvers tend to be a level or three above whites.

Mando Knight
2009-12-10, 11:59 AM
It all depends on the mountain:
Greens and Blacks are unlikely to live in mountainous caves unless the cave is a perfect perch overlooking their usual haunts (forests and swamps, respectively). Blues live just about anywhere, but prefer areas frequented by climactic storms like coastal cliffs. Browns live in deserts. Grays prefer even terrain as opposed to mountain regions, but will make outposts near its lair on advantageous perches. Reds love mountains and volcanoes, so they're likely to shove any other dragon out of one if it can. Whites like glacial peaks, which leaves them open to conflict with Reds if they get territorial. White usually loses. They also tend to be the stupidest of the chromatics, attacking without offering parley if the target doesn't look more powerful than it.

Metallics are similar in disposition towards their terrain, but I don't have my references on me for the behaviors of 4e's metallic dragons. A grumpy Silver is your best bet for a glacial encounter, and a Red or Gold is better for volcanic conditions.

NorseItalian
2009-12-10, 01:31 PM
A slightly bigger dragon, who was forced out of home by an even bigger dragon.

Don't wory, there'sa even bigger dragon that eats these ones!

nightwyrm
2009-12-10, 01:36 PM
Don't wory, there'sa even bigger dragon that eats these ones!

The party can fight a whole chain of home invading dragons right up to epic. :smallbiggrin:

Pramxnim
2009-12-10, 01:42 PM
Cast Summon Bigger Dragon! :smallbiggrin:

FoE
2009-12-10, 01:43 PM
I would suggest a bronze copper dragon from MM2, who prefers hilly terrain. They tend to be backed up fliers like griffins and harpies, and they love hit-and-run tactics. Also, the young dragon version is a Level 6 solo, which is about right for your party.

@V: Sorry, I said 'bronze' when I meant 'copper'.

hamishspence
2009-12-10, 01:46 PM
Copper dragon is the one in MM2.

I think Draconomicon 2 will have the bronze Dragon- among others- is it out yet?

nightwyrm
2009-12-10, 02:00 PM
Copper dragon is the one in MM2.

I think Draconomicon 2 will have the bronze Dragon- among others- is it out yet?

It's out. It's got 7 more metalic types, wyrmlings and draconians.

Duos Greanleef
2009-12-10, 02:04 PM
Copper dragon is the one in MM2.

I think Draconomicon 2 will have the bronze Dragon- among others- is it out yet?

It is!
Saw it today at Waldenbooks.
Fantastic piece of literature.
=']

And Tiki Snake, why would a Red want a White's lair?
They're usually a little chilly for a Red's taste.

And now to the OP...
I don't think a Blue would be living where you're describing... unless he was displaced from the coastal mountains... in which case a bigger blue would do the trick.

Think about using the rules for making dragons elite from Dracnomicon 2 for your first dragon, then use the given solo version for the BBEG... er BBED.

The J Pizzel
2009-12-10, 02:22 PM
Wow. Thanks for all the replies.

More stuff: the tribes cave complex is at the very base of the mountains with a large swampy bog between the massive forrest and the mountains. That is where the new dragon has taken up residence. His original cave was several miles down said mountain range and much higher up. So that's where he originally came from. So, a weak white might do the trick, but maybe a black too. I don't know. I don't want him to be too strong, because if they fight him after the actual BBEG fight, I want it to be a much more simple fight. Not to mention, he will have some of the orc tribe helping him. So a level 3-5 would be preferrable.

On to the evictor. I definitely like the idea of a bigger, badder dragon...but someone mentioned something about him finding a rift in the Shadowfell. What kind of creatures would that be? I'm cool with making this a hard fight, so anything up to level 7-8 would be fine with me.

On the topic of mettalics. Aren't they good dragons? Would they invade a tribes home and make them all his slaves? I like this idea of the players doing a good dragon a favor at level 5, it definitely makes for a story arc later.

Duos Greanleef
2009-12-10, 02:31 PM
...
On the topic of mettalics. Aren't they good dragons? Would they invade a tribes home and make them all his slaves? I like this idea of the players doing a good dragon a favor at level 5, it definitely makes for a story arc later.

According to 4E, they aren't inherently good anymore.
One of my few beefs with the edition, but w/e.
I just houseruled that they are. No huge deal really.

And now that you mention the swampiness and orc-infested area, I suggest a Black with some Green tendencies. I think I remember seeing rules for cross-breeding (?) in Draconomicon 1. I'll verify and post back shortly.

Draconomicon p. 13 has a sidebar about mixed breed dragons.
It basically says to use the stats for one dragon and to flavor the mix for appearance's sake.
Personally, I'd houserule something like every other time the breath weapon recharges, it switches between the breeds...

Theodoric
2009-12-10, 02:38 PM
According to 4E, they aren't inherently good anymore.
One of my few beefs with the edition, but w/e.
I just houseruled that they are. No huge deal really.
Well, they generally do have higher goals than chromatics, and hate those all the same, but they're not all Absolute Good anymore (some of them not really caring about who gets in their way to fulfill their goals). In my opinion, that makes them a bit more interesting and less bland, but meh.

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 02:39 PM
On the topic of mettalics. Aren't they good dragons? Would they invade a tribes home and make them all his slaves? I like this idea of the players doing a good dragon a favor at level 5, it definitely makes for a story arc later.

Well, they're certainly more inclined to good than the chromatics, but they can still be asses. Subjagating some lesser creatures and establishing itself as chief seems about right for an Adamantine dragon. Sure, he might protect his subjects in the same way he might protect any of possesions/territory, but they've got to be more useful to him alive than dead.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 02:43 PM
And Tiki Snake, why would a Red want a White's lair?
They're usually a little chilly for a Red's taste.

I think it's more a case of territory overlap than flat out lair-stealing. Though I'm sure once the white has been thoroughly driven away, there's call for looting the place anyway. They are greedy sorts, Reds, after all.

Mando Knight
2009-12-10, 02:50 PM
According to 4E, they aren't inherently good anymore.
One of my few beefs with the edition, but w/e.
I just houseruled that they are. No huge deal really.

They aren't tame dragons. And sometimes, the allure of absolute power and infinite shinies is too much to resist. While there are a lot more Good metallics than there are not-Evil chromatics, corrupting a metallic is easier than redeeming a chromatic.

Duos Greanleef
2009-12-10, 02:56 PM
To everyone correcting me.
Thank you.
I really like your versions much better than my own!
:smallsmile:

nightwyrm
2009-12-10, 02:57 PM
When your life expectancy is 2000+ years and have more firepower than an entire kingdom, your idea of good may be quite different from those who lives less than 5% of your lifetime.

I actually quite like how the second Draconomicon play up this foreign, really long term and huge ego mentality. A metallic don't have to be evil to rule over a bunch of mortals. It may just (perhaps accurately) believe that it's a better ruler than anything those mortals could come up with.

dsmiles
2009-12-10, 03:02 PM
According to 4E, they aren't inherently good anymore.
One of my few beefs with the edition, but w/e.
I just houseruled that they are. No huge deal really.


Same here...stupid WOTC...:smallfurious:

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 03:03 PM
When your life expectancy is 2000+ years and have more firepower than an entire kingdom, your idea of good may be quite different from those who lives less than 5% of your lifetime.

That's pretty much how the 'Dragon Confederacy' in one of my games worked. The various city-state ruling Golds were thinking say, 500 years into the future and were a bit apathetic to the current problems of the populace if it meant ensuring that there would be a populace in 500 years. "Lord Dragon, our crops are failing, many of your subjects will starve!" "Many, but not all. They will recover in but a few generations. Now, onto important business, how goes diverting that river fifty miles away from here? Or that wall you've been working on for the past thirty years?"

The J Pizzel
2009-12-10, 03:09 PM
OK, I've decided that the evicting dragon will be a young red. That's a level 7 Solo and should be a good fight for 5 level 5's. Not to mention, the MM says Reds will make homes in caves high in the mountains, which is where this cave is. I want this dragon to be downright evil. NO negotiating, roll initiative and go to work.

Now, what weaker dragon did he move out? This is the one that has taken up residence in the orc caves.

Copper makes it's home in the same place and is one level lower. Not bad.
Adamantine is the same level, but slightly weaker in stats. Might be too high, don't you think?
White are "adaptable" and prefer high, cold mountains. I could easily put a white up there and say the red took his place and now he's temporarily down here.
Black would make sense for this new location, but wouldn't make much sense up in the mountains.

Anymore thoughts?

Duos Greanleef
2009-12-10, 03:49 PM
...
Anymore thoughts?

Go with copper.
But I really would consider those elite rules if I were you.
It makes sense for a dragon that just got evicted.

The J Pizzel
2009-12-10, 05:00 PM
Go with copper.
But I really would consider those elite rules if I were you.
It makes sense for a dragon that just got evicted.

What do you mean, elite rules? I honestly have no clue what this post means, lol. I just wracked my brain at work and I'm tired. So it's probably me not following your post very well. Please explain.

Colmarr
2009-12-10, 05:09 PM
That's a level 7 Solo and should be a good fight for 5 level 5's.

Depending on how game-savvy your players are, you may find that a level 7 solo is not a good challenge for a party of level 5 PCs. "Nut-busting hard" in 4e is level+4, stretching to level+5.

If you really want to challenge your players, you should be looking at a level 8 or 9 encounter (whether by upping the level of the solo or by including some grunts and minions in its encounter). In fact, if the dragon is from MM1 (before WotC realised the problems inherent to solos), you may need to include companions for the dragon.


What do you mean, elite rules? I honestly have no clue what this post means, lol. I just wracked my brain at work and I'm tired. So it's probably me not following your post very well. Please explain.

Duos Greanleaf mention in post #13 in this thread that the Draconomicon includes rules for dropping dragons from solos to elites. I assume that's what he's referring to.

Beleriphon
2009-12-10, 05:09 PM
What do you mean, elite rules? I honestly have no clue what this post means, lol. I just wracked my brain at work and I'm tired. So it's probably me not following your post very well. Please explain.

Draconomicon: Metallic Dragons has rules for creating an "elite" type dragon. Its like combining an elite and solo monster into one!

hamishspence
2009-12-10, 05:12 PM
One of the sample dragons in Draconomicon 1 (chromatic dragons) was a green dragon, with warlock powers appropriate for its level (slightly higher than a normal dragon of its age) and standard green dragon powers as well.


Was it a prototype "elite" dragon, or just a completely unique one?

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 05:15 PM
Go with copper.
But I really would consider those elite rules if I were you.
It makes sense for a dragon that just got evicted.

Iron Dragon works well too, they inhabit hills and deep forests or "other environments that offer concealment to a large predator" which is pretty open. As for them taking over some chumps?

As befits their sly nature, iron dragons do not have
allies so much as dupes. They lure dwarves, hobgoblins,
minotaurs, and other greedy humanoids
into working for them in return for a promise of
easy loot. An iron dragon dispatches its "friends"
to ambush intruders. Once the fighting starts, the
dragon watches for a few moments. If its intercession
can win the battle, it attacks. If its allies seem likely
to be defeated, an iron dragon flees rather than risk
its own hide
Its only a level 5 solo lurker as well, so that + its 'f*** this, I'm outta here' attitude works well for an evicted dragon. Also, since they are generally 'sly' dragons, its totally in the nature of the beast to allow some adventurers to go do its dirty work for it. Maybe it purposefully let a few goblin refugees escape its new dominion with the knowledge that they would no doubt attract adventurers and that any adventurers brave/strong enough to come challenge it might be strong enough to take out the Red or at least hurt it enough for the Iron to swoop in and finish it off.

The J Pizzel
2009-12-10, 05:51 PM
If you really want to challenge your players, you should be looking at a level 8 or 9 encounter (whether by upping the level of the solo or by including some grunts and minions in its encounter). In fact, if the dragon is from MM1 (before WotC realised the problems inherent to solos), you may need to include companions for the dragon.

Duos Greanleaf mention in post #13 in this thread that the Draconomicon includes rules for dropping dragons from solos to elites. I assume that's what he's referring to.

Please explain the "inherent problem" you speak of. I need this fight to be good and "nut-busting" because one of my players won't be able to play again for almost a month and a half. So I wanna make it good.

About the dropping to elites, thank you very much Greenleaf, I'll look into (must've missed that part of your earlier post, my apololigies)

Iron Dragon actually works pretty good.

So y'all are saying I should make the Red Dragon fight even harder. I don't think I can move to the next size dragon, so I'll have to offset it with some mountainous monsters. Any suggestions?

jP

tcrudisi
2009-12-10, 06:20 PM
Please explain the "inherent problem" you speak of. I need this fight to be good and "nut-busting" because one of my players won't be able to play again for almost a month and a half. So I wanna make it good.

About the dropping to elites, thank you very much Greenleaf, I'll look into (must've missed that part of your earlier post, my apololigies)

Iron Dragon actually works pretty good.

So y'all are saying I should make the Red Dragon fight even harder. I don't think I can move to the next size dragon, so I'll have to offset it with some mountainous monsters. Any suggestions?

jP

Don't go more than 4 levels higher than the players or you will find they will (likely) require a roll of 18+ to hit it... and that's not fun for the players when it takes an 18+ on the dice to hit. If you want to make it more challenging, throw in some lower-level monsters that interact in weird ways. Perhaps it has followers or perhaps it has some Wyrmlings already (and that would explain why it evicted another dragon -- it wanted a place to raise it's children). Ooohhh... as a side note, why not make there be two wyrmlings of the same color as the evicted dragon? In it's haste to escape with it's life, it was unable to take it's children with it. Now the new dragon is raising them for it's own nefarious reasons. This will also cause the players a bit more trouble, as suddenly resist fire isn't the only resist they'll need/want.

The red dragon is fine -- but be wary of going more than 4 levels (and never more than 5) above the players with an individual monster.

Hashmir
2009-12-10, 06:26 PM
I would definitely go with adding monsters, as opposed to increasing the level of the dragon. Doubly so if Reds are "soldiers," as I believe they are. I would read this (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/254630-stalker0s-guide-anti-grind.html) if you're trying to set up a big climactic encounter that doesn't get boring. The relevant parts for you have to do with soldiers and solos, but the jist is this:

Few things are more boring than not hitting anything. Soldiers have very high defenses, as do solos. And higher-level monsters compound the problem by having increased defenses. So a higher-level soldier solo is just begging for trouble. It is often much more interesting to have a solo around the party's level and use the rest of your XP budget on traps, minions, etc.

Obviously this is just a guideline, but it has seemed to work excellently for me thus far, as well as explaining some of the problems I've had before with solo encounters (especially dragons).

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 07:22 PM
I just took a look through the last pages of the MMs, looks like the creatures you have to work with in the level range you want (5-7) are going to be mostly humanoids or animals. I'd go with a couple of Orcs/Half-Orcs and maybe a Bloodseeker or Rage Drake to round out the encounter with the upstart Red.

Colmarr
2009-12-10, 08:06 PM
Please explain the "inherent problem" you speak of. I need this fight to be good and "nut-busting" because one of my players won't be able to play again for almost a month and a half. So I wanna make it good.

Early solos (ie. MM1) have a weakness to daze in that despite having lots of minor action and immediate action attacks, they can't use them all if they're dazed.

They're not objectively more vulnerable to stun that other monsters, but when viewing the combat as a whole, stunning powers are much more effective because solos are meant to take the place of 5 monsters of the same level. So by stunning that solo you are actually stunning 5 monsters-worth of enemies, not just one.

The other problem with early solos is that they only really have one chance per round of affecting their environment. In between one turn and the next, they usually have to mostly stand there and let the PCs do their thing. Many later solos (MM2 and some of the splatbooks) address this by having more than one initiative in a combat round - they "activate" more often. For example, Demogorgon acts twice per round.

None of the above makes solos overly troublesome, but you do need to be aware of the potential problems. Hopefully it won't be too much of an issue for you because daze powers and especially stun powers are quite rare in early heroic.


I would definitely go with adding monsters, as opposed to increasing the level of the dragon. Doubly so if Reds are "soldiers," as I believe they are.

I agree. Adding more combatants solves two problems at once.

Firstly, it rebalances the action economy by making it a (eg.) 5 v 3 fight instead of 5 vs 1.

Secondly, the added monsters can synergise with the solo. A controller or leader monster can be very effective at supporting solos, particularly if they have ways to grant the solo saves or slide it out of troublesome effects.

Adding levels to the solo merely makes it more likely to hit, and harder to hit in return. That just makes for a grind, and you're more interested in an exciting capstone combat.

Tiki Snakes
2009-12-10, 08:17 PM
Also, you can't go wrong with, in this case, a good horde of sycophantic kobold minions. :smallbiggrin:

Bonus points if the dragon takes no care at all at avoiding blasting the little nutters.

Yakk
2009-12-11, 08:26 AM
One monster doesn't have to be higher in level to drive another out.

If monster A is less risk-taking, while monster B is more, B can be weaker than A and still drive A out.