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lyko555
2009-12-10, 12:40 PM
Ok so My group is a bit big 8 ppl but most of them play pretty unoptimized toons. Well suddenly last week the dm tossed us the plot cookie, and sent us travelying into Mythdrannor. We are currently lvl 6 going into the demon/devil/gargoyle center of the world. Im not sure how were going to live with out him pulling out one of his fameous SuperNPCs.
On the other hand I intend to live and proffit from this, BUt this taxes my survival skills more than i can handle so i Decided to ask the forum for help.

Zovc
2009-12-10, 12:41 PM
If the DM actually wants you dead, you will die.

That is all.

(For the record, if the DM is always putting you guys in over your head and saving you with "super cool" NPCs, you should explain that no one else enjoys that.)

Nohwl
2009-12-10, 12:43 PM
what system/edition is this

FoE
2009-12-10, 12:45 PM
I'm not sure how were going to live without him pulling out one of his famous SuperNPCs.

This sentence concerns me more than anything else you said.

I suggest switching DMs.

Ormagoden
2009-12-10, 12:47 PM
Dear player,

I memorized explosive runes today.

Love,
The DM.

dsmiles
2009-12-10, 12:47 PM
Oooooo...Myth Drannor...
Take control of the Mythal there and RULE THE WORLD!!!MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!:smallbiggrin:

Glimbur
2009-12-10, 12:49 PM
I have a... different idea. If/when a super NPC shows up, play your character in character but also screw everything up. You're a survivalist, right? So when Slab Largehuge is wrestling the dragon, lead the party out a side exit and run for it. This should prevent the DM from making you all simple spectators, since you will not be there.

R. Shackleford
2009-12-10, 12:49 PM
Im not sure how were going to live with out him pulling out one of his fameous SuperNPCs.


This bugs me more than anything, as well. I can't see how he manages to keep 8 people into the game if it always devolves into waiting for Goku.

But yeah, if the DM wants you to die, you're going to die. He doesn't even really need fluff. "You are dead. Try again? [Y/N]" will usually suffice.

taltamir
2009-12-10, 12:53 PM
why is the party even going there? Just say no... "we all run away" is a valid response to a plot hook.

Mark Hall
2009-12-10, 01:05 PM
Your DM is supposed to be trying to kill you. Otherwise, we're talkin' Candyland n' Care Bears.

However, if he's intending to put you in desperate situations so he can save you with his Wank o' Wonder, I'd suggest subtly telling him that this sucks. If he decides to go ahead anyway, conspire with others to make it less fun for him. Run away. Strike deals with the bad guys to team up against his uberNPCs. Don't just be a wrench in his railroad gears... be a orangutan with a wrench and a grudge.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-10, 01:26 PM
Ok so My group is a bit big 8 ppl but most of them play pretty unoptimized toons. Well suddenly last week the dm tossed us the plot cookie, and sent us travelying into Mythdrannor. We are currently lvl 6 going into the demon/devil/gargoyle center of the world. Im not sure how were going to live with out him pulling out one of his fameous SuperNPCs.
On the other hand I intend to live and proffit from this, BUt this taxes my survival skills more than i can handle so i Decided to ask the forum for help.

SuperNPCs? Yeah, stay the hell away from them.

Demon/devil/gargoyle infested center of the world? What sort of plot cookie is this? I would, in character, state my belief that we'd all die there. Then, run the hell away, go do something else. This is completely realistic. Your character doesn't WANT to die.

Artanis
2009-12-10, 01:36 PM
If the DM wants to kill you, he'll kill you, plain and simple.

If you enjoy having the DM constantly pull out super-NPCs to save you, then I don't see the problem.

If, however, you do NOT enjoy having the DM constantly pull out super-NPCs to save you, then the next time he does, talk to him about it. Tell him that you don't enjoy it, and you want to have an adventure where you AREN'T turned into mere spectators at what should be its climax.

And if he still does it anyways, undercut him with the plans that others have proposed in this thread :smallwink:

Narmoth
2009-12-10, 01:44 PM
Talk to him about super NPCs and that they don't help and aren't as awesome for you as for him.

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 02:55 PM
why is the party even going there? Just say no... "we all run away" is a valid response to a plot hook.

Agreed, especially if those SuperNPCs exist. Does Daredevil run off to save the world when Galactus shows up in Manhattan? Hell no! That's what the Avengers/Fantastic Four is for, Daredevil has his own, much less world threatening stuff to deal with.

dsmiles
2009-12-10, 03:05 PM
Yeah, I once sent a group of 6 10th levelers into Myth Drannor, and (I still can't figure out how, unless it was just bad luck) they got squished.

Oslecamo
2009-12-10, 03:11 PM
Agreed, especially if those SuperNPCs exist. Does Daredevil run off to save the world when Galactus shows up in Manhattan? Hell no! That's what the Avengers/Fantastic Four is for, Daredevil has his own, much less world threatening stuff to deal with.

But last time I checked, superman did spend time going after petty criminals like purse lifters, despite being one of the heaviest hitters of the multiverse. And proving he's better than everyone else is one of his favorite pastimes.

Oh gods the OP is playing on the DC universe! Good luck my friend...:smallfrown:

BRC
2009-12-10, 03:15 PM
It's possible your DM is just going to send you up against level appropriate monsters. Not all Demons/Devils are super powerful. But if he's got a history of using super-NPC's, this is a prime situation for one to show up. Expect the party to get cornered by somthing big and one fire, only for the DMPC to either scare it off obi-won kenobi style by walking around a corner, or it will jump off a nearbye roof and slice the thing in two with a sword.

Asbestos
2009-12-10, 03:35 PM
But last time I checked, superman did spend time going after petty criminals like purse lifters, despite being one of the heaviest hitters of the multiverse. And proving he's better than everyone else is one of his favorite pastimes.

Oh gods the OP is playing on the DC universe! Good luck my friend...:smallfrown:

Soon they will be attacked by their Nega-Selves or turned into apes or fight Nega-Ape versions of themselves after going through a portal in the center of the earth to another world.

Oslecamo
2009-12-10, 03:38 PM
Soon they will be attacked by their Nega-Selves or turned into apes or fight Nega-Ape versions of themselves after going through a portal in the center of the earth to another world.
And not even death will release them, because even when they throw themselves into a volcano after sliting their throats out of disgust, they'll somehow come back to life.

Let's just pray the super NPCs don't bring their super NPC pets along.

herrhauptmann
2009-12-10, 05:40 PM
Soon they will be attacked by their Nega-Selves or turned into apes or fight Nega-Ape versions of themselves after going through a portal in the center of the earth to another world.

Or they'll be mindswitched with a bunch of evil, but otherwise weak villains. Then they'll have to use those villains bodies and powers to defeat themselves.

lyko555
2009-12-11, 12:28 PM
I love you guys so much.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 03:37 PM
Alternative option: Get your fellow players together. Agree that when one of you speaks a code phrase(use creativity in this, for added amusement), you will happily begin to ignore the DM. Describe to each other in great detail what happens to his super powered NPC, then your escape from the railroad tracks he put you on.

It leads to hilarious results.

Myrmex
2009-12-11, 03:41 PM
Demon/devil/gargoyle infested center of the world? What sort of plot cookie is this? I would, in character, state my belief that we'd all die there. Then, run the hell away, go do something else. This is completely realistic. Your character doesn't WANT to die.

Yeah, my PCs also demand to only fight CR equivalent, or less, encounters. Otherwise they have no IC reason to do it.

taltamir
2009-12-11, 03:42 PM
But last time I checked, superman did spend time going after petty criminals like purse lifters, despite being one of the heaviest hitters of the multiverse. And proving he's better than everyone else is one of his favorite pastimes.

Oh gods the OP is playing on the DC universe! Good luck my friend...:smallfrown:

so?

superman fights petty crooks on occasion doesn't mean that a "local hero" (an exceptional policeman) should fight someone who can hurt superman... especially not when he KNOWS superman (aka DMPC) is coming to take care of the big bad

DM: And now you need to go to myth draennor with superman
PC: ok... we send a letter to superman letting him know of what needs doing and all our info on the subject... and then go clear a tribe of orcs or something else in our capability of doing without dying horribly.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 03:44 PM
Yeah, my PCs also demand to only fight CR equivalent, or less, encounters. Otherwise they have no IC reason to do it.

Suicide isn't a frequent character concept. I can't see a bunch of low level adventurers convincing themselves that going to hell to kill everything there really is a good idea after all.

Mark Hall
2009-12-11, 03:45 PM
Alternative option: Get your fellow players together. Agree that when one of you speaks a code phrase(use creativity in this, for added amusement), you will happily begin to ignore the DM. Describe to each other in great detail what happens to his super powered NPC, then your escape from the railroad tracks he put you on.

It leads to hilarious results.

I suggest "Pink Frosting", but I don't know how many will get that joke.

taltamir
2009-12-11, 03:47 PM
Suicide isn't a frequent character concept. I can't see a bunch of low level adventurers convincing themselves that going to hell to kill everything there really is a good idea after all.

I wanna slay the dragon! At level 1! with not magic gear!

Mark Hall
2009-12-11, 04:15 PM
I wanna slay the dragon! At level 1! with not magic gear!

"Personally, I kinda want to kill the dragon."

Nero24200
2009-12-11, 04:45 PM
Oh, your DM is trying to kill your party? That topic name is so deceptive :P

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 04:52 PM
Oh, your DM is trying to kill your party? That topic name is so deceptive :P

Dont.....eat....the....pizza.

Dervag
2009-12-11, 04:57 PM
I suggest "Pink Frosting", but I don't know how many will get that joke.Would you mind explaining it?

Thalnawr
2009-12-11, 05:04 PM
I suggest "Pink Frosting", but I don't know how many will get that joke.
Well played sir, now I've gotta dig up my Bundles of Trouble and re-read them.

Thalnawr
2009-12-11, 05:07 PM
Would you mind explaining it?
As far as the whole "Pink frosting" thing, here (http://dice-monkeys.com/fun-stuff/kodt-player-advantage-codes) is a list of "Player Advantage Codes" that players could use to talk strategy and pass messages, hopefully without alerting the DM to their plans.

Mark Hall
2009-12-11, 05:11 PM
Would you mind explaining it?

I'd spoiler it, but we're talking comics from several years ago, so....

At some point in Knights of the Dinner Table (which you should be reading), BA (the GM) got sick of all the out of character talking that went on... action planning and tactics that he felt violated the spirit of the game. So, he started to enforce the "two words" rule... you couldn't say more than two words when it's not your turn in combat.

The players turned this around by developing two-word codes that they could use to communicate. Now, this isn't a problem in a sane game world, and something most DMs should probably encourage... it's very in-character for simple, common, strategies to be reduced to code.

The boys (Brian, Dave and Bob) went further. They developed a list of (what I remember as) 50 some code phrases covering everything from "Throw the henchman into the radius of the fireball" (chunky salsa) to "There's something we need to discuss outside of the GM's hearing; conference outside" (pink frosting). "Pink frosting" was the only one I recall them using in the comic... the others were revealed in a later addendum to a comic.

Knaight
2009-12-11, 05:22 PM
This sentence concerns me more than anything else you said.

I suggest switching DMs.

He might just be new. A lot of people do this for a few early games, and learn to drop it eventually. Or just have things toned down (yes, there are things more powerful than you are, and yes, they may cross paths with you on occasion. Odds are it won't be in a situation where you need assistance, but it can happen, and there is no guarantee that their agenda syncs up with yours well. Plus, well, there are a few of you.), to the point where it is fine, acceptable, and often even better. Particularly if you can exert influence on these NPCs, and maybe cause a few with agenda's cross purpose to both yours and each other's to bump into each other. With dubious information on each other. Shakespeare style.

Asbestos
2009-12-11, 05:37 PM
And not even death will release them, because even when they throw themselves into a volcano after sliting their throats out of disgust, they'll somehow come back to life.

Let's just pray the super NPCs don't bring their super NPC pets along.

Sadly Marvel printed a 'Pet Avengers' comic involving Lockjaw, Lockheed, and some other semi-animals I don't feel like remembering. At least the girl in the miniskirt and cape isn't dating the horse.

So, has your party decided to let Shazam fight the good fight while they go and overturn a thieves guild?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 08:08 PM
Squirrel Girl = Worst. Superhero. Ever.

taltamir
2009-12-11, 08:36 PM
Squirrel Girl = Worst. Superhero. Ever.

was her power having the cuteness of a squirrel? making puppy dog eyes? climbing trees? putting nuts in her mouth?

Artanis
2009-12-11, 08:46 PM
It's commanding squirrels. Or something along those lines.

clockworkmonk
2009-12-11, 08:55 PM
Didn't stop her from beating up Galactus. And Dr. Doom.

taltamir
2009-12-11, 08:56 PM
Didn't stop her from beating up Galactus. And Dr. Doom.

aren't they the guys who could give superman a pause? how is that possible?


It's commanding squirrels. Or something along those lines.

So... she can send a bunch of 4 inch long rodents at you! The horror!

FoE
2009-12-11, 09:08 PM
was her power having the cuteness of a squirrel? making puppy dog eyes? climbing trees? putting nuts in her mouth?

The ability to defeat anyone in the Marvel Universe. I sh** you not.

Talbot
2009-12-11, 09:17 PM
Only Deadpool has every accomplished something that could even REMOTELY be called a win against her, and he had to break the 4th wall to do it. And even then, it was only after having his butt kicked rather thoroughly on several occasions.

Volkov
2009-12-11, 10:26 PM
The DM isn't really trying to screw you over until he pulls a new super mario brothers wii on you. "Bowser falls into the magma once you press the button, you walk up to princess peach, only to find that she's actually kamek in disguise, who the proceeds to fly over the pit and casts a spell over it, he sits and looks if the spell works, the entire castle rumbles as if it were hit with an earthquake, and bowser rises from the lava, one hundred times larger than before and knocks kamek away and begins chasing you, now is the time to run, as he's immune to all your attacks."

Volkov
2009-12-11, 10:40 PM
Here's the worst thing my old DM ever did to us, well one of them. "I send my elemental to walk under the apple tree." 'Your elemental passes the apple tree, only to be crushed by a gigantic apple.' "alright I jump over it" 'The apple falls up and kills you.' "Wait...the apple falls up and kills me? THE APPLE FALLS UP AND KILLS ME!?!?!?!?!????"

Mando Knight
2009-12-11, 10:54 PM
Here's the worst thing my old DM ever did to us, well one of them. "I send my elemental to walk under the apple tree." 'Your elemental passes the apple tree, only to be crushed by a gigantic apple.' "alright I jump over it" 'The apple falls up and kills you.' "Wait...the apple falls up and kills me? THE APPLE FALLS UP AND KILLS ME!?!?!?!?!????"

It's really more like a cherry...

Volkov
2009-12-11, 10:57 PM
It's really more like a cherry...

He had that game in his collection. That and Super kaizo mario world......attacking us during victory pseudo-cut-scenes....why Alexi WHY!!!!!

Mark Hall
2009-12-12, 12:33 AM
Squirrel Girl = Worst. Superhero. Ever.

You kids today, saying "Worst" when you obviously mean "Best".

For the record, Squirrel Girl's powers are, technically, enhanced strength, and sense of smell, a 3' long prehensile tail, climbing claws and knuckle spikes, and the ability to talk to squirrels... she understands them and they understand her.

And, as mentioned, the ability to beat up ANYONE. I'd put money on her over Superman.

taltamir
2009-12-12, 12:35 AM
squirrels have a brain the size of a walnut at best... I can't imagine them having much to say.
The average human cannot talk to animals because animals are too dumb to speak, not because we cannot understand their "language".

GoodbyeSoberDay
2009-12-12, 12:46 AM
squirrels have a brain the size of a walnut at best... I can't imagine them having much to say.
The average human cannot talk to animals because animals are too dumb to speak, not because we cannot understand their "language".Dolphins?

Also, replace animals with barbarians and human with Greek and you pretty much have Aristotle word for word. With less misogyny.

If I read more comics I'd be more annoyed at Squirrel Girl's plot armor than her ability to make squirrels more intelligent.


...


Right! Suicide quest / DMPCs! I'd first convene with the rest of the group to see if they like the quest and the idea of Gandalf leading the way. Assuming they don't, you can approach the DM as a group before play starts and request the game go in a different direction. Or you could pull one of a number of tricks already mentioned to "teach him a lesson." I'm sure that will go well.

Mark Hall
2009-12-12, 12:49 AM
squirrels have a brain the size of a walnut at best... I can't imagine them having much to say.
The average human cannot talk to animals because animals are too dumb to speak, not because we cannot understand their "language".

Superpowers. Seriously. Doug Ramsey could read the language of a centuries-dead alien race, despite having no common referents. Doreen can have meaningful conversations with squirrels.

As for animals not having language... really, there's a lot of books on the language of animals. They're not as grammatically complex as human languages, but I can think of three books off the top of my head that go into some of the basics ("Mind of the Raven" by Bernd Heinrich, "The Wolf in the Parlor" by Jon Franklin and "Of Wolves and Men" by Barry Lopez.)

taltamir
2009-12-12, 12:55 AM
"angry noise" and "calm noise" are not a language. This is why you can communicate with an animal by making noises, expressions, and other non lingual communication methods. But you cannot SPEAK to them and convey complex ideas.

FoE
2009-12-12, 01:00 AM
"angry noise" and "calm noise" are not a language. This is why you can communicate with an animal by making noises, expressions, and other non lingual communication methods. But you cannot SPEAK to them and convey complex ideas.

Is it any more ridiculous than Aquaman's power to talk to fish?

taltamir
2009-12-12, 01:03 AM
Is it any more ridiculous than Aquaman's power to talk to fish?

the fish have nothing to say... I can "talk to fish" too, I go "boo" (not exactly) and the swim away in fear. I mimic something friendly and docile and they swim close by.

FoE
2009-12-12, 01:06 AM
the fish have nothing to say... I can "talk to fish" too, I go "boo" (not exactly) and the swim away in fear. I mimic something friendly and docile and they swim close by.

You know very damn well what I meant. He can communicate with fish and they obey his commands.

taltamir
2009-12-12, 01:08 AM
You know very damn well what I meant. He can communicate with fish and they obey his commands.

which is silly because they are too dumb to communicate or follow said commands. :)

FoE
2009-12-12, 01:11 AM
which is silly because they are too dumb to communicate or follow said commands. :)

Exactly! But that's what makes it a super-power.

taltamir
2009-12-12, 01:31 AM
This reminds me the list of "implied powers"
For example, superman has the implied power to render a person he is touching indestructible. That is what catching lois at the speed of sound doesn't slice her in half (with his hands).

I guess aquaman has the additional implied power of vastly enhancing the intelligence of fish.

actually saw a list of his implied powers once, not only is it a huge list, it also makes him pretty much superman+.

Mark Hall
2009-12-12, 11:53 AM
"angry noise" and "calm noise" are not a language. This is why you can communicate with an animal by making noises, expressions, and other non lingual communication methods. But you cannot SPEAK to them and convey complex ideas.

Dogs have a fairly nuanced communication system, actually. They can tell you (or other dogs) that everything they're about to do is play. They use scent and posture to communicate a variety of ideas. Yes, they can't hold forth on The Office or the like, but they have a language of posture and noises. Simple language, with simple ideas, but language with syntax and words.

Asbestos
2009-12-12, 01:58 PM
If I read more comics I'd be more annoyed at Squirrel Girl's plot armor than her ability to make squirrels more intelligent.

In Squirrel Girl's defense, she is part of the Great Lakes Avengers a group of super heroes that are pretty much just jokes. Their leader is Mr. Immortal and he dies in pretty much every issue. His only power is the ability to never stay dead.

Oslecamo
2009-12-12, 02:02 PM
You know very damn well what I meant. He can communicate with fish and they obey his commands.

Actualy, they don't have to obey his comands. They normaly do what he wants out of respect/fear, but certain more vivious sea creatures refuse to bow to him.

That's how he lost his hand. Piranhas ate it.

taltamir
2009-12-15, 01:35 AM
Dogs have a fairly nuanced communication system, actually. They can tell you (or other dogs) that everything they're about to do is play. They use scent and posture to communicate a variety of ideas. Yes, they can't hold forth on The Office or the like, but they have a language of posture and noises. Simple language, with simple ideas, but language with syntax and words.

amusingly, a lot of dogs actually "recognize" more than 100 words. A parrot has the organs to speak like a human, but typically can only recognize under 10 word.

Dogs are fairly intelligent as far as animals go. Still, not quite the flexibility of a human language. Its not like you can debate philosophy with one.

Jayabalard
2009-12-15, 09:05 AM
Dogs are fairly intelligent as far as animals go.That really depends a lot on the breed.

MightyIgoo
2009-12-15, 01:56 PM
Actually, this discussion of "squirrels are dumb" brings up the question of "What is intelligence?" I mean, really, let's define it.

Is it communication? Dogs communicate with each other, birds communicate, so do squirrels, dolphins, primates, elephants, cats, meerkats, the list keeps going.

Is it tool-using? Scientists just found video evidence of octopi using coconut shells as shelter and disguise. An octopus is an _invertebrate_, and it can use tools.

Is it social structure? Apes and elephants have social order, as do deer, goats, and our friends the meerkats. (And this may belong under 'communication'.)

Is it "self-awareness"? This one's hard to pin down. How do you ask a dog if it thinks about itself? The communication barrier is enormous. A previous poster mentioned animals not being able to pontificate on TV shows -- why would a dog *need* to talk about TV shows? What purpose does that serve? Dogs can communicate just fine amongst themselves, it's understanding *us* that they have problems with. (Try explaining to a dog that normal behavior should include covering oneself in plant fibers, shaving one's body hair and working 10 hours a day at a job you hate. Your dog probably won't get the point of it.) But my point is this: self-awareness is not an easy thing to prove or disprove.

So what is intelligence?

FoE
2009-12-15, 02:12 PM
That's how he lost his hand. Piranhas ate it.

I recognize only the DCAU's origins of Aquaman, in which he cut off his own hand in an extreme display of badassery.

And this thread is waaaaaaaaay off-topic.

Glimbur
2009-12-15, 03:41 PM
So what is intelligence?

Intelligence is the ability to ask the question "what is intelligence?".

Shademan
2009-12-15, 03:56 PM
Intelligence is the ability to ask the question "what is intelligence?".

maybe dogs do. I don't speak dog so I don't know

MightyIgoo
2009-12-15, 04:03 PM
maybe dogs do. I don't speak dog so I don't know

Exactly! How do we know what a dog thinks about?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-15, 04:05 PM
And this thread is waaaaaaaaay off-topic.

I never should have mentioned squirrel girl.

Wait..do I get xp for killing this thread?

Ashram
2009-12-15, 04:10 PM
Ugh, one of the DMs in my group did exactly this. Actively tried to kill the PCs any way he could while ignoring his other important DM duties, such as arbitrating the rules fairly (Oh, a rule works against me? Not anymore!) and telling a compelling story (Go here, fight things, get raped).

He also had two super minmaxed DMPCs: One was a weird sorceror/monk/enlightened fist character, who the DM thought should have three homebrew Legacy items (From Weapons of Legacy) that had barely any penalties and ridiculous abilities (Fire resistance/eventual immunity from ranks in Tumble? What?) The other was a Charisma-whoring female warlock/ranger/rogue/homebrew Temple Raider of Olidammara who had infinite Charm Person and would constantly use it to get her way with the PCs. (Oh, you made your save? Okay, I'll just keep using it until you fail!)

Amphetryon
2009-12-15, 04:23 PM
I never should have mentioned squirrel girl.

Wait..do I get xp for killing this thread?
Tyndmyr > Thread. WINNAR!

Random832
2009-12-15, 04:30 PM
who had infinite Charm Person and would constantly use it to get her way with the PCs. (Oh, you made your save? Okay, I'll just keep using it until you fail!)

Infinite? Yeah.... no. My reaction to that would be:

puts die down 20-up without trying to make it look like it rolled

Oh, look, I made my save again.

repeat until DM calls me on it

You cheat, I cheat.

BRC
2009-12-15, 04:34 PM
Infinite? Yeah.... no. My reaction to that would be:

puts die down 20-up without trying to make it look like it rolled

Oh, look, I made my save again.

repeat until DM calls me on it

You cheat, I cheat.

Technically, the warlock with Unlimited Charms isn't a Cheat, just Cheap and annoying.

Remember that Charm Person is a form of Mind Control, and that you probably know she's trying it on you if you make your save. Therefore, the proper response is to stab her in the face for trying to mind control you.

Mark Hall
2009-12-15, 04:34 PM
Ugh, one of the DMs in my group did exactly this. Actively tried to kill the PCs any way he could while ignoring his other important DM duties, such as arbitrating the rules fairly (Oh, a rule works against me? Not anymore!) and telling a compelling story (Go here, fight things, get raped).

He also had two super minmaxed DMPCs: One was a weird sorceror/monk/enlightened fist character, who the DM thought should have three homebrew Legacy items (From Weapons of Legacy) that had barely any penalties and ridiculous abilities (Fire resistance/eventual immunity from ranks in Tumble? What?) The other was a Charisma-whoring female warlock/ranger/rogue/homebrew Temple Raider of Olidammara who had infinite Charm Person and would constantly use it to get her way with the PCs. (Oh, you made your save? Okay, I'll just keep using it until you fail!)

While a warlock could pull that off, I'd point out that, every time I made a save, I'd know that I saved against something and, since I have an intelligence of 8 or better, I can put 2 and 2 together and get something betwen 3.9 and 4.1... which is close enough for a yard of steel.

SemiteLock
2009-12-15, 05:31 PM
Ugh, one of the DMs in my group did exactly this. Actively tried to kill the PCs any way he could while ignoring his other important DM duties, such as arbitrating the rules fairly (Oh, a rule works against me? Not anymore!) and telling a compelling story (Go here, fight things, get raped).

He also had two super minmaxed DMPCs: One was a weird sorceror/monk/enlightened fist character, who the DM thought should have three homebrew Legacy items (From Weapons of Legacy) that had barely any penalties and ridiculous abilities (Fire resistance/eventual immunity from ranks in Tumble? What?) The other was a Charisma-whoring female warlock/ranger/rogue/homebrew Temple Raider of Olidammara who had infinite Charm Person and would constantly use it to get her way with the PCs. (Oh, you made your save? Okay, I'll just keep using it until you fail!)

Wait i thought we were talking about squirrels and dogs? What is this stuff about DnD?

Kaun
2009-12-15, 05:47 PM
I suggest "Pink Frosting", but I don't know how many will get that joke.

CHILI CHEESE BURRITO!!!

taltamir
2009-12-17, 11:29 AM
Technically, the warlock with Unlimited Charms isn't a Cheat, just Cheap and annoying.

Remember that Charm Person is a form of Mind Control, and that you probably know she's trying it on you if you make your save. Therefore, the proper response is to stab her in the face for trying to mind control you.

that!
Well... you will need to make a DC16 spellcraft check to identify the spell as charm person. Otherwise she could say "I was just casting some protection spell on you" (at which case you roll her bluff vs your sense motive)

Ecalsneerg
2009-12-17, 11:39 AM
ridiculous abilities (Fire resistance/eventual immunity from ranks in Tumble? What?)

When everyone cottons on that's a stance in Tome of Battle, the anime debate shall begin.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-17, 01:59 PM
Suicide isn't a frequent character concept. I can't see a bunch of low level adventurers convincing themselves that going to hell to kill everything there really is a good idea after all.

Elf Wizard, 25 point buy.

Base con 8.
-2 racial penalty, 6.
(Optional: Start in the middle aged category for a further -1 to con).

Take the Quick Trait and the Frail Flaw from Unearthed Arcana.

Starting Hp 0.

The character is disabled.

Character takes a standard action and takes 1 point of damage and is now dying.

But you're absolutely right, this isn't a frequent concept at all. I've only used it once, myself... :smallsmile: