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quiet1mi
2009-12-10, 04:58 PM
So, I need concealment to use the hide skill... normally concealment is granted through hiding behind something that obscures vision...


Trueseeing from the SRD:You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.


Here are my questions, before answering them please say what number you are answering so there is no confusion...


Does this mean that if I cast blur on myself I could effectively hide without hiding behind something?

Does this turn Shrouded Dance into a hide in plain sight for 1 round?

Can anyone confirm if Shrouded Dance would not be effected by True Seeing as Shrouded Dance is not magical?

Would the standard DC:20 Spot check to notice something invisible relate to seeing footprints, moving dust, or other visual cues that something is there?

I know they apply to invisible people but would they apply to someone with blur?

Grumman
2009-12-10, 05:12 PM
Does this mean that if I cast blur on myself I could effectively hide without hiding behind something?
In my opinion, no, it means that it only blurs your appearance to people who don't have true seeing. They still know where you are, within say +/- 1 foot.

Remember that Blur doesn't work on people that can't see you. Hiding using Blur would mean you'd stop Blur from working, making you visible again.

erikun
2009-12-10, 05:43 PM
Does this mean that if I cast blur on myself I could effectively hide without hiding behind something?
True Seeing will see through the Blur, so while you can make a hide check, someone with True Seeing will see you. It is like hiding in the dark against someone with darkvision - the dark doesn't grant you concealment from them.


Does this turn Shrouded Dance into a hide in plain sight for 1 round?
I'm not sure what Shrounded Dance is, but most DMs will not allow you to hide behind an object you carry. Or rather, they can still hit you by targetting the object you are holding. See: Vanishing Tower Shield


Can anyone confirm if Shrouded Dance would not be effected by True Seeing as Shrouded Dance is not magical?
If Shrounded Dance is an (Ex) ability, it is not affected by True Seeing. If it is (Su), (Sp), or a spell, then True Seeing will see right through it.


Would the standard DC:20 Spot check to notice something invisible relate to seeing footprints, moving dust, or other visual cues that something is there?
There isn't a ruling on just what is seen with the DC 20 Spot check. Disturbance in the surroundings, motion out the corner of your eye, footprints, and seeing objects appear and vanish under the invisible cloak are all good reasonings for identifying an invisible opponent.


I know they apply to invisible people but would they apply to someone with blur?
Blur doesn't make you invisible, so there is not spot check to see you. If you are trying to hide behind your Tower Shield (or Shrounded Dance), then they might not be able to see you directly but can still see your shield/cloak, obviously.

quiet1mi
2009-12-10, 05:58 PM
In my opinion, no, it means that it only blurs your appearance to people who don't have true seeing. They still know where you are, within say +/- 1 foot.

As I understand it, Blur makes it harder to see you. (Similar to the visual effects of WOW when a Rogue goes into stealth mode.) My ability to hide my presence (through hide) makes it so you cannot draw line of sight to me as you cannot see me unless you defeat my hide check (there is not +20/+40 bonus for being invisible because I am not) with a spot check...

However I did reread hide and it states that I have to break LOS before making a hide check...
From the SRD regarding Hide:you need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check... If people are observing you, even casually, you canít hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that youíre out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. with this in mind, Casting blur is not enough to make a hide check because they knew where you were, however if you broke LOS then you can make and keep the hide check because you are by definition difficult to see and have concealment ...(necessary to make hide checks) Combined with the flat DC:20 to notice the presence (normally enough to kill skill monkeys)invisible people regardless of their hide check... I see this as a descent compromise...


Remember that Blur doesn't work on people that can't see you. Hiding using Blur would mean you'd stop Blur from working, making you visible again.
Blur does not "stop working" if people cannot see you... if people cannot see you then you would gave, by definition Total Concealment....


The SRD regarding Blur:The subjectís outline appears blurred, shifting and wavering. This distortion grants the subject concealment (20% miss chance).
A see invisibility spell does not counteract the blur effect, but a true seeing spell does.
Opponents that cannot see the subject ignore the spellís effect (though fighting an unseen opponent carries penalties of its own).

quiet1mi
2009-12-10, 06:21 PM
True Seeing will see through the Blur, so while you can make a hide check, someone with True Seeing will see you. It is like hiding in the dark against someone with darkvision - the dark doesn't grant you concealment from them.

Understood, This thread is to aid stealth monkeys against opponents, right now "Devil Sight" and "See Invisibility" have been the bane of my existence...


I'm not sure what Shrounded Dance is, but most DMs will not allow you to hide behind an object you carry. Or rather, they can still hit you by targetting the object you are holding. See: Vanishing Tower Shield


It is a skill trick from the complete scoundrel, page 89. I believe it to be an extraordinary ability because it relies on the user's skills and not magic...


If Shrounded Dance is an (Ex) ability, it is not affected by True Seeing. If it is (Su), (Sp), or a spell, then True Seeing will see right through it.


I will keep this in mind the next level I take, having the ability to hide from trueseeing is invaluable when you only have a D6 HD and 10 constitution...


Blur doesn't make you invisible, so there is not spot check to see you. If you are trying to hide behind your Tower Shield (or Shrounded Dance), then they might not be able to see you directly but can still see your shield/cloak, obviously.

The question in mind is blur granting concealment, which is necessary to roll a hide check... In an earlier post (after you posted) I wrote how casting it alone does not allow you to roll a hide check, you have to be no longer observed...

New Question:
[6] If I created a diversion while having blur on me (IE: while having concealment) would that be enough to roll a hide check?


Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-10, 06:29 PM
There are two requirements to use the Hide skill:
cover/concealment
not being observed
So, taking your questions in order:
No, Blur only provides concealment, and that's not enough.
Again, no, for the same reason.
The Shrouded Dance skill trick and the Hide skill aren't magical, so they make it possible to Hide from someone using True Seeing. However, you still need to satisfy the "not being observed" requirement to Hide, which you can do if you have any form of Hide in Plain Sight that works in your current surroundings.
Yes, Spot always works as specified. If someone is visually unapparent (for any reason), there's still a chance to Spot signs of their presence.
Again, Blur by itself only makes you harder to hit. It doesn't make you any harder to Spot. The Hide skill can do that.

erikun
2009-12-10, 06:35 PM
If you want to get technical, hiding does nothing beyond making you hard to spot. There would be no penality to attacking a hidden, blurred opponent beyond the miss chance from Blur. :smallbiggrin:

A bit more seriously, even if you could hide with a Blur spell, Tower Shield, or Shrouded Dance, it realistically doesn't stop someone from spotting the Blur, shield, or cloak you're hiding behind. If you tried to render the items themselves nonvisible (say, by putting your cloak into your backpack) then they are no longer providing the cover to hide behind.


You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway.
I don't see a problem with making a hide check while Blurred or Shroud Dancing, but you wouldn't get any benefit from it directly. You could, however, move under cover and drop you cloak to remain hidden. Seeing as how they can't spot you - just your cloak - they would only be capable of following where your cloak went, not specifically where you went.

I wouldn't expect to be "invisible" standing out in the open without the Hide in Plain Sight ability.

Hyfigh
2009-12-10, 07:43 PM
So, I need concealment to use the hide skill... normally concealment is granted through hiding behind something that obscures vision...



Here are my questions, before answering them please say what number you are answering so there is no confusion...


Does this mean that if I cast blur on myself I could effectively hide without hiding behind something?

Does this turn Shrouded Dance into a hide in plain sight for 1 round?

Can anyone confirm if Shrouded Dance would not be effected by True Seeing as Shrouded Dance is not magical?

Would the standard DC:20 Spot check to notice something invisible relate to seeing footprints, moving dust, or other visual cues that something is there?

I know they apply to invisible people but would they apply to someone with blur?



1- Blur provides concealment. Concealment allows you to hide. By RAW, you can hide while under the effects of Blur. As someone's pointed out already, you can't hide while being watched.

2- Shrouded Dance provides concealment. See -1-.

3- Though it isn't a spell it is a concealment effect which True Seeing does specifically overcome. True Seeing bypasses the concealment of Shrouded Dance.

4- I would imagine that is what a Spot check does by default.

5- I do not understand this question and would prefer not to assume...

Fcannon
2009-12-10, 07:58 PM
Understood, This thread is to aid stealth monkeys against opponents, right now "Devil Sight" and "See Invisibility" have been the bane of my existence...



If you have access to UMD, look into getting a wand of blacklight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/spells/blacklight.htm)-it makes total darkness that the caster can see through, cast it on yourself and only someone with True Seeing or nonvisual senses can find you (though they know you're in that 20 ft bubble of darkness).

quiet1mi
2009-12-11, 04:58 AM
Would a Bluff Check provide the necessary requirement of not being observed... under the create a distraction portion...

Player: I cast Blur... Can I roll a hide check?

DM: Ok, you have concealment... but the Hobgoblin is observing you... so no.

Player: "Look, an interesting Bird!" :Rolls a bluff check for a distraction:

Dm: :Rolls for Spot and fails to defeat bluff check: "I do not see an interesting bird! :Turns around: "well darn I stopped observing him... time to roll Spot...

Could the above conversation work under the rules as the player fulfilled the requirements of hide, obtain concealment and not be observed?

Grumman
2009-12-11, 05:11 AM
No. You're trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 05:22 AM
The Hide check after creating a diversion specifies moving fast to get to a hiding place, so I don't think it's reasonable to just stand there with Blur making you indistinct. As Grumman said, you're trying to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You've got to bite the bullet and follow the rules:

standard action Bluff check to create the diversion
move action to get to a hiding place, and a penalty to your Hide check while doing so

Or, alternatively, go for one of the Supernatural forms of Hide in Plain Sight (Assassin/Shadowdancer) and you won't need to worry about distractions or hiding places again.

DonEsteban
2009-12-11, 05:40 AM
3- Though it isn't a spell it is a concealment effect which True Seeing does specifically overcome. True Seeing bypasses the concealment of Shrouded Dance.


False. The description of True Seeing specifically states that it doesn't negate concealment.

Otherwise... what Curmudgeon said.

erikun
2009-12-11, 09:47 AM
Could the above conversation work under the rules as the player fulfilled the requirements of hide, obtain concealment and not be observed?
No.

There needs to be cover or concealment between you and the target in order for you to hide (successfully). The target does not need to make spot checks to see what is in plain sight - the spot check is to notice the person hiding behind it.

The mistake you are making is assuming that your opponent will not be able to spot the object you are hiding behind. Indeed, you can make a hide check behind a cloak - in doing so, the target will not be able to identify your features. However, they are still capable of seeing a person swinging a cloak around.

Unless they had some reason to believe this is natural, they are going to be suspicious.

Now, if you could leave the Blur effect behind - such as an illusion staying in one place - then you could Hide behind it and move away. This is exactly like placing a Tower Shield upright, hiding behind it, and then moving away (leaving the Tower Shield behind). As it is, though, the Blur effect stays with you, and everyone in plain sight can easily spot it.


If this discussion is really designed to help skill monkeys, then I really can't recommend attempting an "Invisible Tower Shield" approach. Just about any realistic DM will immediately shoot it down.

Hyfigh
2009-12-11, 12:40 PM
False. The description of True Seeing specifically states that it doesn't negate concealment.

Otherwise... what Curmudgeon said.

I apologize for my hasty reading. You are correct.

Hyfigh
2009-12-11, 01:00 PM
If this discussion is really designed to help skill monkeys, then I really can't recommend attempting an "Invisible Tower Shield" approach. Just about any realistic DM will immediately shoot it down.

This is the catch. By RAW these tricks are OK. So sure, thought exersices are fun... But I can't imagine the DM that's going to allow you to pull a trick like this off.

There is a prestige class that does almost exactly what you're trying to accomplish though. Umbral Disciple from the Magic of Incarnum book. It's second or third level class features combine to provide a concealment based on shadows you create through abilities that can be used to HiPS. The dip is something I try very hard to squeeze into most of my sneaky type builds because the HiPS is almost unconditional because of the way the abilities work.

quiet1mi
2009-12-11, 02:30 PM
Can someone post a link to the "Invisible Tower shield" I keep hearing about?

One more thing? Why do people keep assuming I would hide behind a cloak? I by RAW have everything necessary to make a hide check...


The subjectís outline appears blurred, shifting and wavering.

This would make you more difficult to spot then the average person just standing there as your very outline is removed... for those who specialize in hiding, such as military snipers, getting rid of your outline is one of the first things you do.

So to clearify, you are not hiding behind anything, there is no visible cloak to spot... you are just standing there with your outline removed... thus making you more difficult to spot... when you have a high enough Dex and ranks in hide, I could totally imagine someone reducing their visible profile through their skill and talents at hiding... with their outline removed it becomes one of those pictures that you stare at for awhile to notice the hidden picture.

It is not that people are soo blind to not see my character from 5 or 10 feet away, it is just that he is that good at hiding.

Looking at it in a similar fashion, hiding behind some bushes that do not completely cover you... They do not provide total concealment as you could be seen through them... but since you are obscured (harder to see then normal) You can make a hide check an not be targeted...

If you compare it to Invisibility, Blur is not that powerful as it is overshadowed by the lowly mirror image. It does not grant +20/+40 to a hide check and to negate the DC: 20 spot check all you need to do is stay 35 feet or more away... Compared to that, having a player rely only on his hide check gives him a chance to use to do something like pick-pocket some bad guys without them noticing.

If it is not allowed then the stealth monkey feels worthless as he is defeated so easily and his entire character concept falls flat on its face...

Ryumaru
2009-12-11, 03:24 PM
Can someone post a link to the "Invisible Tower shield" I keep hearing about?

I'm assuming people are refering to the fact you can use a tower shield to get total cover, insted of attacks/AC. And from what I recall off the top of my head, cover/concealment lets you make a check to Hide, so you would basically be hiding behind it, and suddenly, you and your equipped shield 'disappear' to peoples view.

quiet1mi
2009-12-11, 04:10 PM
Doesn't specifically say that with total cover, you can still see the tower shield and instead of targeting you with a spell, they target the tower shield...

With what I am stating, there is nothing to see or target.. just one person being difficult to see yet not invisible... so taking 20 with a character who put ranks into spot is effectively someone adjusting their eyes to those magic pictures until they see the hidden picture...

For an example of the magic pictures, here is an example... http://www.magiceye3ds.com/pictures.aspx

erikun
2009-12-11, 09:43 PM
I'm sorry if I've been vague. I guess I should have been more specific, or at least not assumed that everyone was familiar with the various RAW trickery that flies around.


Can someone post a link to the "Invisible Tower shield" I keep hearing about?
The "Invisible Tower Shield" is a questionable reading of the rules, in an attempt to make both yourself and the object you are hiding behind unspotable, and thus "invisible." The logic works as follows.

1.) You can use a tower shield to provide total cover (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldTower).
2.) While behind the tower shield, you may make a hide check because you have total cover.
3.) Once hidden, nobody can spot you without a successful spot check.
4.) All equipment you have on you is subject to the same status you are. That is, if you are hidden from an enemy, then all equipment you have is hidden from the enemy also.
5.) The tower shield is part of your equipment.
6.) Therefore, the tower shield is hidden from the enemy.
7.) The enemy may not spot the tower shield until they spot you. The enemy may not spot you because they do not have line-of-sight through the tower shield.

As I said, it is a silly interpretation of RAW that doesn't make sense in the real world. My point of bringing it up is that any DM who sees a character attempt such a feat will automatically cause it to fail, because reguardless of whether it is RAW or not, it doesn't make any sense in the real world.


One more thing? Why do people keep assuming I would hide behind a cloak? I by RAW have everything necessary to make a hide check...
Sorry, my comments about a cloak were because you'd originally mentioned a cloak in your first post. Also, it is rather difficult to relate a Blur spell to the real world, but it is easy to think of how someone twirling a cloak in front of them would work.


This would make you more difficult to spot then the average person just standing there as your very outline is removed... for those who specialize in hiding, such as military snipers, getting rid of your outline is one of the first things you do.

Looking at it in a similar fashion, hiding behind some bushes that do not completely cover you...
Bushes provide partial concealment, which allow you to hide. Military snipers lay down flat on hilltops or buildings, or shoot from around corners - partial cover, also which allow hiding.

What you are proposing (or what it sounds like you are proposing) is standing in the middle of a street, Blurred, and expecting not to be noticed. If you were standing next to something that would obstruct vision (ie, partial concealment) then you could hide. Similarly, if a guard was looking around but his view was partially obstructed by a wall, then hiding would potentially prevent him from spotting you.


If you compare it to Invisibility, Blur is not that powerful as it is overshadowed by the lowly mirror image.
Blur is primarily a combat spell. It grants 20% miss chance for at least 3 minutes, quite a bit more at higher levels. Invisibility turns off the first time you attack, and Mirror Image will last 1-2 turns of average before the images are destroyed.


For an example of the magic pictures, here is an example... http://www.magiceye3ds.com/pictures.aspx
Does this look suspicious?
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6105/high20street.jpg
Blur doesn't do much of anything out in the open. Your opponent may not be able to distinguish your actual form, but it does nothing to prevent them from noticing the large magical effect standing in front of them.

Furthermore, motion is far more detectable (by the human eye) than patterns or body outlines. The fact that it is constantly moving will make it more noticable than if you were just wearing camoflage.

cZak
2009-12-12, 12:01 AM
I'm kind of curious about Supernatural abilities...

The description (PHB 180) says they cannot be counter spelled or dispelled, BUT they do not function in an Antimagic Field intimating that they are magical.
So is AMF the only counter to Su abilities?
- Resist energy counters Dragon's breath (Su)
- Death ward counters a spectre's Energy drain (Su)
...Would True seeing or even See invis counter HiPS (Su)?


It never seemed reasonable that HiPS would work without magic;i.e as an Extraordinary ability; Ranger. I always thought there must be some break from observation for a person to hide; you can't hide in an empty hallway from someone with darkvision.

9mm
2009-12-12, 12:11 AM
I'm kind of curious about Supernatural abilities...

The description (PHB 180) says they cannot be counter spelled or dispelled, BUT they do not function in an Antimagic Field intimating that they are magical.
So is AMF the only counter to Su abilities?
- Resist energy counters Dragon's breath (Su)
- Death ward counters a spectre's Energy drain (Su)
...Would True seeing or even See invis counter HiPS (Su)?


It never seemed reasonable that HiPS would work without magic;i.e as an Extraordinary ability; Ranger. I always thought there must be some break from observation for a person to hide; you can't hide in an empty hallway from someone with darkvision.

Ok say it with me people; Hide in plain sight allows you to hide while being observed but you still need something to hide with/behind/in but you can hide. the ranger gets around that by not needing something to hide with/behind/in while in natural terrrain.

it bypasses true sight becuase truessight doesn't help you notice the guy standing really still in the shadows, just see through the invisblity spell and illuisions surrounding him.

Demons_eye
2009-12-12, 12:15 AM
I think he means some thing like this (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=17067606&ch=4226713) but less drastic.

erikun
2009-12-12, 12:25 AM
It never seemed reasonable that HiPS would work without magic;i.e as an Extraordinary ability; Ranger. I always thought there must be some break from observation for a person to hide; you can't hide in an empty hallway from someone with darkvision.
I always took it to mean camouflage, blending in with surroundings, or just simply lying flat on the ground. Something like this (http://veryveryfun.com/pics/Urban-Camouflage/Urban-Camouflage-6.jpg), for example. Perhaps this is what Quiet is thinking of when he tries to "hide" behind the blur spell/

I feel that it's a bit late for the Ranger to be getting such an ability - 5th level is supposedly olympic level and 10th superheroic, making 13th for camouflage and 17th for HiPS a bit absurd for something the army accomplishes every day.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su), such as from a Shadowdancer, is instead magical. They can hide "in plain sight" by manipulating the shadows to cover them.

cZak
2009-12-12, 12:41 AM
it bypasses true sight because true sight doesn't help you notice the guy standing really still in the shadows, just see through the invisibility spell and illusions surrounding him.

In a normal Hide check, this makes sense. But:

- HiPS (Su) is a magical effect.
- Other Su abilities can be 'overcome' by other magical effects.

What differentiates HiPS (Su) from all other Su abilities?

Other Su abilities can be associated with a spell; Dragon's breath/ fireball, spectre's energy drain/ energy drain.
And there are spells that 'overcome' those Su abilities. Seems reasonable that there should be a spell to 'overcome' HiPS (Su). Its just a matter of identifying the spell that most closely correlates to the ability, and that seems to be invisibility.



Ok say it with me people; Hide in plain sight allows you to hide while being observed but you still need something to hide with/behind/in, but you can hide. the ranger gets around that by not needing something to hide with/behind/in while in natural terrrain.

That's kind of nonsensical.:smallconfused:
You can HiPS (Ex) as long as you have something to disrupt the observing person's LOS... The basic Hide skill requires this; cover or concealment.
And I would assume 'natural terrain' as providing some basis for cover/ concealment; forest: bushes & tress, swamp: water & ferns, plains: high grasses and indents of the ground, tundra: snow and scrub. In a flat, unbroken desert? Not so sure...

The one benefit I see for the HiPS (Ex) is you're not required to provide a distraction (bluff) or take the -10 penalty for having to 'move fast' (PHB 76). But you still need something to provide some sort of cover/ concealment.

Actually, that's pretty huge...:smallsmile: