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View Full Version : Let's see some cheese (3.5)



tahu88810
2009-12-10, 07:57 PM
Hey there Playgrounders! One of the people I switch off DMing with is starting a campaign in Forgotten Realms soon, and the rest of the party is, for this campaign (as he has stated there will be almost no RP), highly optimized. I, however, am not very good at optimizing. However, I know that if one is in need of over-powered builds, the best place to go is the playground. So I ask you, what can you do with every available 3.5 source book, and any forgotten realms source book? Beginning at first level and going up from there?

Gamerlord
2009-12-10, 07:57 PM
CoDzilla, that is all.

tahu88810
2009-12-10, 08:11 PM
I've never actually understood how the CoDzilla works, actually. Just buff and buff and buff?

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-10, 08:12 PM
You forgot Planar Shepherd.

Zom B
2009-12-10, 08:14 PM
There's the Cleric using Divine Metamagic with the Irresistible Spell feat (+6 or so spell level increase, creatures automatically fail saves vs. the Irresistible Spell) combined with Sanctuary. Basically, complete immunity to all non-AoE attacks.

sofawall
2009-12-10, 08:22 PM
And this is what happens when a third-party group gets a WotC D&D official license.

Eurus
2009-12-10, 08:26 PM
There's the Cleric using Divine Metamagic with the Irresistible Spell feat (+6 or so spell level increase, creatures automatically fail saves vs. the Irresistible Spell) combined with Sanctuary. Basically, complete immunity to all non-AoE attacks.


And this is what happens when a third-party group gets a WotC D&D official license.

That... yeah, just that. Seriously, that's not even funny. I've never even heard of that feat before, and its existence makes me very, very sad. :smallfrown:

Glimbur
2009-12-10, 08:27 PM
There's the Cleric using Divine Metamagic with the Irresistible Spell feat (+6 or so spell level increase, creatures automatically fail saves vs. the Irresistible Spell) combined with Sanctuary. Basically, complete immunity to all non-AoE attacks.

...until you make an attack of your own. Sanctuary isn't that good.

For power 1-20 I would suggest Druid over Cleric. At first level, you have an Animal Companion. By mid levels, you've got mid level spells and wildshape. By high levels, you are still a full caster. Pick spells intelligently and cast them intelligently. Use the animal companion as a replaceable resource. Wild Shape for combat ability and utility, but don't assume you're invulnerable: animals tend to have low AC and it's nontrivial to increase that to significant amounts. Wilding Clasps help, as does a Monk's Belt.

Kallisti
2009-12-10, 08:27 PM
Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pun-pun?

Assuming for the moment you didn't mean that much cheese, a DMM: Persist cleric can be wicked as CoDzilla. Especially if the DM doesn't limit the number of Nightsticks you can use or carry.

Douglas
2009-12-10, 08:30 PM
There's the Cleric using Divine Metamagic with the Irresistible Spell feat (+6 or so spell level increase, creatures automatically fail saves vs. the Irresistible Spell) combined with Sanctuary. Basically, complete immunity to all non-AoE attacks.
I am almost completely certain that is a third party feat, not likely to be allowed by any sane DM, and I am completely certain (not almost) that it is utterly broken.

The standard cleric version of CoDzilla is a cleric with the Planning and Undeath domains, human, and two flaws. Take Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) plus as many copies of Extra Turning as you can get. Between your domains and bonus feats, you can end up with DMM (Persist) and three Extra Turnings at level 1. Proceed to Persist large numbers of powerful buff spells on yourself. Add Nightsticks for more turning attempts when you can afford them, and various caster level boosters to increase the bonuses from your buffs and make them harder to dispel.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-10, 08:51 PM
Stinky cheese? Lets see...

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Focus Specialist Conjurer/Monk/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge

Levels:
Focused Specialist Conjurer 9
Monk 1
Ur Priest 2
Mystic Theurge 8
(Take them in the order FSC4/Monk1/UrP2/MT8/FSC5)
Feats:
1: Dragonwrought
3: Spell Focus (evil)
6: Iron Will
9: Quicken Spell
12: Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
15: Free
18: Free

Items:
Lots and lots of Nightsticks

This build gives you 9th level wizard and cleric spells by 20th level. Sadly, it could be done to an even more ridiculous extent.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-10, 09:18 PM
Venerable Loredrake Dragonwrought kobold sorcerer 5/PrC 10/Archmage 5?

You get to cast as a greater-than-full sorcerer, and can take epic feats at level 1.

erikun
2009-12-10, 09:55 PM
Did someone mention cheese? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861942/Chuck_E_Cheese)

A bit more seriously, "cheese" can encompass a lot of builds, depending on what you consider cheesy or not. Batman Wizard, Metamagic Reducers, DMM Cleric, Druids, Ubercharger, King of Smack, and Chain Trippers are most of the "big" ones. Let me see if I can give you a good idea of what each does.

Remember, though, that the builds aren't so much of a problem if everyone else is similarly cheesy. The Ubercharger's damage isn't a major concern when Batman Wizard can one-shot half the encounters himself, after all.

Batman Wizard

What he does: Carries around a bunch of utility spells, buff spells, save-or-lose spells, either memorized or in scrolls and wands. Can take care of nearly all encounters he runs across.

The problem: Spells like Knock and Invisibility can render the party rogue useless. Spells like Grease, Web, and Glitterdust can eliminate groups of creatures entirely.

Cheesiness Factor: Moderate to Low. This is a highly effective Wizard build, and casting things like Enlarge Person and Invisibility on party members can make everyone even more effective. It's when the Wizard himself decides to run around as a Greater Invisibility Polymorphed Dragon and render the party invalid that it becomes a problem.

Metamagic Reducers

What he does: Incantrix, Arcane Thesis, and other feats or prestige classes to reduce the cost of metamagic feats, allowing the spellcaster (normally Wizard) to apply them for free.

The problem: At best, you'll just see a "blaster" Wizard tossing Empowered fireballs for more damage. Some might tack a few cheaper metamagics, such as making everything Still and Silence. The worst will assume that +0 metamagic will be reduced to -1, thus trying to cast Energy Substitution Still Silence Quickened Twin spells at the same level.

Cheesiness Factor: Moderate to High. Optimizing direct-damage spells isn't too bad, although it will make unoptimized fighters look like a joke in comparison. Attempting to stack a half-dozen metamagic feats onto a single spell gets rather absurd, though.

DMM Cleric

What he does: Persist Spell [Metamagic] + Divine Metamagic (Persist Spell) is the most common. It allows trading in turning attempts to apply metamagic to spells without requiring higher level spell slots. As mentioned, the most common is Persist Spell, for the day-long buffs. This is frequently seen with Nightsticks, which grant additional turning attempts, and which can apparently "stack". (Meaning that while one stick will give 3 turning attempts, 10 sticks will give 30.)

The problem: The biggest problem is like Batman Wizard - applying all the buffs to himself, resulting in "ClericZilla". They will usually spread the buffs around the party, which isn't so bad by itself. A slightly bigger problem is that if you allow Nightstick abuse, your players are likely to turn around and use them for metamagics you weren't planning on. (Quickened Miracles, for example)

Cheesiness Factor: High (nightsticks) to Low (not). Nightstick abuse can get quite crazy, even if just reserved for party buffs - the amount of nightsticks you can buy at higher levels is just insane. Without it, the DMM Cleric needs to resort to Extra Turning feats and lesser metamagic. Extend Spell on whole party buffs isn't as absurd, and can greatly boost the party's performance.

Druids

What he does: You have an animal companion with stats comparable to a standard fighter. You cast up to 9th level spells, like a Wizard, and can wear armor, like a Cleric. You can Wildshape at level five into anything in the PHB, and stay that way all day, thus negating low STR/DEX/CON. At sixth level, pick up Natural Spell and you can even spellcast in Wildshape.

The problem: Druids overpower the party without even trying. Indeed, the druid has special abilities more powerful that most classes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0346.html). In an unoptimized party, the druid can end up outshining everyone purely by choosing actions at random.

Cheesiness Factor: Moderate. The druid's worst fault is being so optimized that there is hardly a bad decision to be made with the class. In a party of optimizers, this won't be so problematic. Plus, if the druid makes it a point to avoid the worst offenders of powergaming (Fleshraker, Venomfire) then he shouldn't be too overpowering.

Ubercharger

What he does: 2 Handed Lance (1.5x STR) + Power Attack (+BAB x2 damage) + Leap Attack (make that BAB x3) + Shock Trooper (penality to AC, not BAB) + Mounted Combat (x2 damage all) + Pounce special ability (full attack after charge)

The problem: Truely absurd amounts of damage, can regularly break the hundreds at moderate levels. Uses miss change to ignore the fact that their AC ends up garbage.

Cheesiness Factor: Moderate. This isn't as abusive as some of the things listed here, but an Ubercharger can kill just about anything slightly CR appropriate in a single turn. Used in moderation - such as just Power Attack and Shock Trooper - can be a good and simple way to increase damage output.

King of Smack

What he does: Here you go. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19539114/Psychic_Warrior_Build_Guide_38_Compendium_RevisedP sychic) In short, stacking multiple size increases to do hundreds of dice of damage.

The problem: Same as Ubercharger - lots and lots of damage. Doesn't rely on charging to be effective.

Cheesiness Factor: Moderate. You aren't likely to see something like this in an actual game, simply because stacking that many size modifiers will quickly produce the smell of fresh cheese. Like Ubercharger, using in moderation can be a handy damage boost, although the difference between 2d6 and 3d6 is much more minor.

Chain Trippers

What he does: Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Spiked Chain). A reach of 15' and can hit multiple opponents who pass through it. Can trip with no retaliation and follow up with an attack. Throw on Enlarge Person to double the range.

The problem: An opponent stuck 15' away from everyone can't do anything. The Chain Tripper tends to dominate the battle, making other meleers useless. On the other hand, Chain Tripping is rendered mostly obsolete my mid levels.

Cheesiness Factor: Low. Remember that each opponent can only provoke one AoO a round, regardless of how many squares they pass through. Standing up provokes an AoO before they stand, so you can't trip them back to the ground that way. Throwing a dozen or so weaker enemies will overwhelm even the Chain Tripper, and Huge+ creatures just can't be tripped. Flying, incorporeal, and golems can't be tripped either.


I'm sure I missed a couple, like the Dragonwrought caster-level buffs and such.

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-10, 10:17 PM
Ubercharger and King of Smack and Chain TripperA single psychic warrior can combine all of these, to good effect. If KoS is used more moderately, a single psywar can trip the largest creatures in the game by himself, and can deal wonderful (read: obscene) amounts of damage, and can do lots of other things, too.

Also, psychic warriors use a lot of tricks to get around some of the more annoying problems inherent in mundane combat, such as size restrictions, mount fragility, and being rendered obsolete by monsters with special abilities. They make good archers, good battlefield controllers, good sneaksters, and great damage-dealers.

You might want to consider an optimized psychic warrior in a higher-end game; they're not horrifically overpowered, but they can keep up with the big boys (see: tier 1) without too much issue, and are viable and relevant from 1 to 20.

sofawall
2009-12-10, 11:19 PM
I am almost completely certain that is a third party feat, not likely to be allowed by any sane DM, and I am completely certain (not almost) that it is utterly broken.

It is, in fact, third party. It is, however, published under an official D&D license from WotC.

Therefore, it is WotC D&D legal, even if not published by them. Much along the lines of every Rokugan book except Oriental Adventures.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-11, 12:05 AM
You forgot Planar Shepherd.

Planar Shepherd's an Eberron class. I think it's more in the spirit of the challenge to use a Forgotten Realms class, such as Incantatrix and/or Dweomerkeeper. Probably Incantatrix, since it's so straightforward. (Choose one or more spells. Get lots of metamagic feats. Use metamagic reducers to apply all of those metamagic feats to that spell while keeping it in a spell slot you can still cast. Profit).

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 12:21 AM
Do a google search for the Killer gnome. Casting arcane miracles at level 9-13.

Alternately, for taint abuse: Bard 5 / Ardent 4 / Subverted Psion 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Cerebremancer 9 (Ardent/Sub.Chord)

9th level powers, 9th level arcane, everything off wisdom/con, and the ability to get crazy DC's for the Arcane side.

d13
2009-12-11, 12:43 AM
Hey there Playgrounders! One of the people I switch off DMing with is starting a campaign in Forgotten Realms soon, and the rest of the party is, for this campaign (as he has stated there will be almost no RP), highly optimized. I, however, am not very good at optimizing. However, I know that if one is in need of over-powered builds, the best place to go is the playground. So I ask you, what can you do with every available 3.5 source book, and any forgotten realms source book? Beginning at first level and going up from there?

Incantatrix. Go to town.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-11, 12:51 AM
I'm dissapointed in you all. You forgot my favorite Cheesy Build.

The King of Pong! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107248)

Not as powerful as some of the others... but it is incredibly cool.

Amphetryon
2009-12-11, 07:23 AM
No mention yet of 1d2 Crusaders? For shame!

Killer Angel
2009-12-11, 08:22 AM
Incantatrix. Go to town.

d13 is right. In forgotten realms this is cheese on a silver plate ready for you.

Cyclocone
2009-12-11, 08:39 AM
Incantatrix is good and all. But if he's starting at level 1, Improved Metamagic comes in a bit late.

So if you're looking for Metamagic stacking abuse, mix it up with some Halruaan Elder (Shining South).

Try to aim for something like Silverbrow Human Focused Specialist Conjurer (with Abrubt Jaunt) 5/Incantatrix 3/Halruaan Elder 2 and then fill out with Incantatrix and Halruaan Elder from there, theoretically going for wizard 5/incantatrix 10/halruaan elder 5 at level 20.


Feats to take would be the usual suspects: Quicken, Extend/Persist, Split Ray, Sculpt etc.
Halruaan Elder gives you Circle Magic cheese, so if you can aquire some spellcasting minions (hint: Leadership or Simulacrum), Empower/Maximize become less crucial.
For added metamagic crazyness, take Metamagic School Focus and Practical Metamagic; you might want rapid metamagic as well, if you want to quicken spontaneously.
If you can, definately take Uncanny Forethought (Exemplars of Evil) and Craft Contingency (Unaproachable East).

Oh, and Sakkratars Tripple Strike (LEoF) will keep the Fighters docile (if you have any in your party).

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 09:23 AM
Stinky cheese? Lets see...

Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold Focus Specialist Conjurer/Monk/Ur Priest/Mystic Theurge

Levels:
Focused Specialist Conjurer 9
Monk 1
Ur Priest 2
Mystic Theurge 8
(Take them in the order FSC4/Monk1/UrP2/MT8/FSC5)
Feats:
1: Dragonwrought
3: Spell Focus (evil)
6: Iron Will
9: Quicken Spell
12: Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell)
15: Free
18: Free

Items:
Lots and lots of Nightsticks

This build gives you 9th level wizard and cleric spells by 20th level. Sadly, it could be done to an even more ridiculous extent.

Get Iron Will via visiting an Otuyough Hole(probably misspelled, Complete Scoundrel has info), or dropping the 3k GP on it. Totally worth freeing up the feat slot, since it can be used for an epic feat. My favorite at low levels is Epic Toughness. +30 Hp is pretty helpful for not dying. Consider taking flaws for additional epic feats.

I'd drop the monk level, myself. Doesn't help with anything all that important to the build, and it leaves you weak in the first two levels of Ur Priest, when you'll be behind on casting anyhow.

For a sorc version of the same, abuse Loredrake for an additional +2 sorc levels, I believe. I mean, you're already using a dragonwrought kobold, may as well.

Edit: Naturally, if you're going focused conjurer, take the UA alternate class feature instead of a familiar.

Optimystik
2009-12-11, 09:33 AM
Dweomerkeeper - make standard-action spells (Su), removing all component costs. Free Wish, Free Gate, Free Miracle... and it's 10/10 casting.

Emmerask
2009-12-11, 10:13 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Cheese_platter.jpg


/edit apologies I really could not resist

mregecko
2009-12-11, 10:28 AM
Really? We havea ll of this Forgotten Realms cheese, specifically about CoDZilla, and NOBODY has mentioned Initiate of Mystra? I'm disappointed.

To the OP... Initiate of Mystra ranks up there with the most abusable cheese available in Forgotten Realms. You have to be a 3rd level Cleric of Mystra to take it, but your spells work in Antimagic Fields.

Pair that with a bunch of Divine Metamagic: Persist cheese, and you're golden.

-- G

Eldariel
2009-12-11, 12:03 PM
Really? We havea ll of this Forgotten Realms cheese, specifically about CoDZilla, and NOBODY has mentioned Initiate of Mystra? I'm disappointed.

To the OP... Initiate of Mystra ranks up there with the most abusable cheese available in Forgotten Realms. You have to be a 3rd level Cleric of Mystra to take it, but your spells work in Antimagic Fields.

Pair that with a bunch of Divine Metamagic: Persist cheese, and you're golden.

-- G

Pair that with DMM: Chain and DMM: Ocular Spell á la Twice-Betrayer of Shar and you TRULY get to have fun. Now you can pretty much persist every spell ever (Anyspell-line along with Miracle gives you access to arcane spells too) and you're the only guy whose spells work in your general vicinity (might as well Widen the AMF).

Then as a Dweomerkeeper, you get even more versatility spell-wise and Wishes + Limited Wishes without XP costs. And Spell Mantles to spontaneously cast few insane spells. And...well, Supernatural Spell also conveniently ignores just about every defense ever that exists against spells (countermagic, SR, etc.).


Soo...yeah, worship Mystra, win the world. Look at Elminster; it worked out pretty well for him.

HARLEYDUDE
2009-12-11, 12:04 PM
I am almost completely certain that is a third party feat, not likely to be allowed by any sane DM, and I am completely certain (not almost) that it is utterly broken.

The standard cleric version of CoDzilla is a cleric with the Planning and Undeath domains, human, and two flaws. Take Persistent Spell and Divine Metamagic (Persistent Spell) plus as many copies of Extra Turning as you can get. Between your domains and bonus feats, you can end up with DMM (Persist) and three Extra Turnings at level 1. Proceed to Persist large numbers of powerful buff spells on yourself. Add Nightsticks for more turning attempts when you can afford them, and various caster level boosters to increase the bonuses from your buffs and make them harder to dispel.

I agree with the cleric route explained above. however i would add using a poleax or some 2 handed reach weapon, and combat reflexes (get your dex up) dont forget the feat short haft to battle close enemys. once you have access to righteous might, persist that and you will AoO the entire battlefield out to 40 ft.
HD

Lamech
2009-12-11, 01:13 PM
Second dweamorkeeper. Remember a SU limited wish can mimic a geas. No it doesn't get a saving throw. No it can't choose to disobey. No ten thousand years is not open ended. No it doesn't take ten minutes to cast. No it doesn't get SR. If it isn't immune to mind affecting its all over. Also simuclrum of a great gold wyrm gets full sorc casting. Gate everyday.

Also try for tainted scholar.

Also planar binding. Legions of demons are never a bad thing to throw at your enemy.

Also assume supernatural. Pick something broken. And by broken I mean protean scourage's split.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-11, 01:38 PM
Dweomerkeeper (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a), Cheater of Mystra (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872770/new_build_The_Cheater_of_Mystra).

I'm particularly fond of Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ EK 4. Use Metamagic Effect: Persistent Spell to make all of your buffs last all day, especially Wraithstrike, Bladeweave, Draconic Polymorph, and Thunderlance with GMW. At level 1 take Combat Reflexes and Power Attack and use a glaive and armor spikes, and with good tactics you'll probably carry the rest of the party through the early levels.

At level 1, nothing playable beats a Psychic Warrior with Expansion, Up the Walls, and an unbridled abuse of the falling object rules (DMG page 303). That's 20d6 damage to up to four creatures, no saving throw, no attack roll, and no damage to yourself as long as you use the option to jump down onto them rather than just falling.

Optimystik
2009-12-11, 02:25 PM
Soo...yeah, worship Mystra, win the world. Look at Elminster; it worked out pretty well for him.

Ironically, Mystra herself fared far worse.

Eldariel
2009-12-11, 02:27 PM
Ironically, Mystra herself fared far worse.

Whadda ya mean? She's perfectly fine. Yes, 4e never happened.

Optimystik
2009-12-11, 02:31 PM
Yes, 4e never happened.

Someone is casting Persistent Quickened Maximized Denial I see. :smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 02:34 PM
No, no, he's right. It's an illusion. Here, try that saving throw again with the bonus. =)

imperialspectre
2009-12-11, 03:31 PM
Feyrun, you say? Heh.

One of the shenanigans that ToS people came up with more or less independently (meaning, AFAIK, nobody on 339 or BG posted about it) was Spelldancer cheese. The Spelldancer is a 3.5 legal class from Magic of Feyrun that lets you apply metamagic as long as you can avoid being fatigued and Con-damaged. You could risk making lots of fort saves in various ways, or you could simply avoid taking Con damage.

The final straw for forcing Doc Roc to ban the PrC was a build that aethernox put together - a Necropolitan Martial Wizard/Spelldancer/something else that persisted nearly every single spell slot it had. It was basically an ECL 13, slightly-less-powerful Twice-Betrayer, with offense that makes Spirit Lion Barbarians cry.