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root9125
2009-12-10, 09:45 PM
Need recommendations for defense of a large fortress.

Short question because I want broad answers.

Project_Mayhem
2009-12-10, 09:46 PM
A big shifting maze, various incompetent minions, a swamp thats very smelly, and David Bowie's crotch. Just watch out for jail bait.

Toliudar
2009-12-10, 09:54 PM
High Fantasy? Perch it on top of a huge floating rock that you can drive around wherever you want.

Xefas
2009-12-10, 09:55 PM
Prepare a single, well kept road that appears mostly harmless, and stretch it snake-like back and forth from the entrance to your domain to the door of your fortress.

Make all the area around that single road mostly impassable with walls/thorny briers/etc.

When your enemies enters your domain, proceed to swiftly build progressively more powerful towers along the road (though never actually blocking the road with anything). Most of them should deal damage, but some should impede movement. Make sure to build a lot on the hairpin turns, 'cause that'll be where your towers are most effective.

Ladorak
2009-12-10, 09:55 PM
You can't go wrong with Bowie crotch.

Are you GMing or playing? If you're playing a rough line out of terrain and resources couldn't hurt...

If your GMing, a rough line out of what the PCs have at their disposal couldn't hurt...

Edit: Because yeah, you could be talking about a tower defence game for al we know :smallwink:

nyarlathotep
2009-12-10, 09:58 PM
Free roaming monsters either vermin or undead, and have either lichloved, hide from undead, or verminfriend to get them to leave you alone.

root9125
2009-12-10, 10:00 PM
The base is being built by the Mages of the Arcane Order, who have nigh unlimited resources.

D&D 3.5

Siosilvar
2009-12-10, 10:05 PM
Prepare a single, well kept road that appears mostly harmless, and stretch it snake-like back and forth from the entrance to your domain to the door of your fortress.

Make all the area around that single road mostly impassable with walls/thorny briers/etc.

When your enemies enters your domain, proceed to swiftly build progressively more powerful towers along the road (though never actually blocking the road with anything). Most of them should deal damage, but some should impede movement. Make sure to build a lot on the hairpin turns, 'cause that'll be where your towers are most effective.
Don't forget to include everyone's favorite element - GUNS!

Randel
2009-12-10, 10:24 PM
Make it look like a fast-food restaurant. The front entrance leads directly into a maze filled with traps and a furnace. Your employees use the employee entrance that at the back of the building.


Get an epic-level bard to play a promotional song saying about how the Mages of the Arcane Order are your best friends and you really want to obey what they say. Magically record it and play it on the magical intercom system at regular intervals to turn everyone fanatically devoted to them.

Rasman
2009-12-10, 10:34 PM
when in doubt...LARGE bodies of water surrounding your fortess is a good thing...preferably with no bridge...or the appearance of no bridge...

...scratch that...lava is better...

"Oh noes, all our men fell into the lava..."

Archmage notices and casts mass Prismatic Wall/Force Wall all around the fortress...

..."we wait..."

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-10, 10:37 PM
Forbiddance on EVERYTHING. Make sure those mages can't 'port in ur base to kill ur dudes.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-10, 10:53 PM
Put the whole thing in the Borg Cube.
*casts summon sofawall*

sofawall
2009-12-10, 11:14 PM
You called?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-10, 11:16 PM
Put the whole thing in the Borg Cube.
*casts summon sofawall*

Man, don't even talk about the cube. Fighting against that thing traumatized me for life. I never even saw sofa. :smallsigh:

Seatbelt
2009-12-10, 11:17 PM
Take a look at medieval fortresses, and then magic the bejeebus out of them

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-10, 11:17 PM
Borg Cube/Box reference, for the rest of the thread: See http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132436

Grommen
2009-12-10, 11:25 PM
The base is being built by the Mages of the Arcane Order, who have nigh unlimited resources.

D&D 3.5

Well if it's unlimited might I suggest you also employ Bowie's close friend and confident: Trent Resiner's crotch as well.

On a more serious note. When building fortresses you need good solid walls. Start their. Least a foot thick if not five. Trust me you can't go wrong with thick walls. Drop some lead in them as well, keeps out pesky teleportation and the like. Need to ward it too. I don't have the spells on hand but you want to block Divinations, Teleportations and the like.
Hire thy self a big honken dragon too. Keeps the locals quiet and might just provide a nice "No Fly Zone" around the keep. The problem with using medieval keeps and D&D rules is that the keeps were designed in a time when man didn't fly so they are very vulnerable to air assault. You need to employ some weapons that will shoot down those trying to fly, thuss a big honken Dragon. Griffins will work in a pinch. If you want to go for that nice Gothic look, can't go wrong with a Gargoyle or twelve.
If your lucky enough to have a hill or something taller to build on this is of added benefit. If seiged it will make that attackers job a lot harder, even if they manage to take down a wall, they can't get to it without running or better yet climbing up. All the wile the keeps defenders can rain down pain.
The weakest part of any keep is the door. They can be taken down if given enough time. After making it out of the best material you can find, spells or other wise don't make the door flush with your outside wall. Instead put it on a right angle to the walls trying to get at least two and better yet three overlooking surfaces. Once again when the enemies tries to brake down the door you can rain down the pain from 3 sides leaving the people down below extremely more vulnerable.
Lastly, for the love of what ever you call holey. Think exit stragity. Just cause the surfs have to stay inside a besieged keep does not mean that you have too. Make a very well concealed back door. And don't let that many people in on the deal. The more that know means the more people that can betray you and tell the other side where the back door is. Next thing you know you wake up with the rival army's general staring down at you with a big freeken axe in hand.

Good luck..

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-10, 11:30 PM
Animate Object + Permanency + Awaken Construct = your fortress LIVES!

Then have it take levels of wizard.

You now have a flying, teleporting, contingencying fortress of doom.

Saintheart
2009-12-10, 11:54 PM
Animate Object + Permanency + Awaken Construct = your fortress LIVES!

Then have it take levels of wizard.

You now have a flying, teleporting, contingencying fortress of doom.

And being able to cast Stone Shape on itself, you have a TRANSFORMER!!!

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/4/47/Metroplex-UK.jpg/300px-Metroplex-UK.jpg

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-11, 12:13 AM
The formula for a stationary magic item that can use a spell at will is 500 x spell level x caster level. you can use this to create magical artillery. I recommend magic missle machine guns and fireball cannons:smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 12:51 AM
Free roaming monsters either vermin or undead, and have either lichloved, hide from undead, or verminfriend to get them to leave you alone.

I favor ridiculous volumes of rust monsters and anything that inflicts negative levels. For bonus points, try to get rust dragons.

Merely killing your enemies is far too kind. You really want them to arrive at your doorstep in a nearly helpless state, ready to be harvested for their delicious xp.

gdiddy
2009-12-11, 01:14 AM
No armory.

Just a room filled with piles, shelves, and chests full of Candles of Invocation.

Dixieboy
2009-12-11, 01:24 AM
One word: Genesis.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 01:31 AM
For the inside? Guards and wards.

Don't underestimate the ability to get people really mixed up when half their lefts are rights, in an area that has very similar looking intersections.

Add in pit traps to lower floors (self-closing, of course, 1 man only, manual reset), Wind effects that can push some people through intersections, and leave others, and well?

Especially with 0 visibility, also provided by G&W. Heck, a few self reseting damage traps, and you're cookin'.

kpenguin
2009-12-11, 01:36 AM
Move it underground and make an illusion aboveground of it.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 01:41 AM
I prefer the simple things. Build your fortress on the Positive Energy plane, be a Lich, and make sure your guards are all undead.

For actual defenses, make sure every wall is lined with lead. Make the building fly, as anything less means you're in contact with the ground and therefore vulnerable to tunnels, Earthquake, and similar. Get the entire place DimAnchored. Have guards with True Seeing and no need to sleep watching every angle(including vertical). Make another set of guards watching them. Make sure that entire regions of the fortress work like Pitcher Plants for anyone stupid enough to step into them. Make no traps that can be found with a Search check.

You'll still lose to a group of misfits with an affinity for fire, but at least you'll take out a small country when you go, and release the demonic horde bound as your guard, so there'll be a distraction to cover your True Rez.

kemmotar
2009-12-11, 02:03 AM
Stonghold Builder's guidebook is your friend....

Your fortress doesn't need to comply with normal stronghold standards...

Make it a flying fortress from the very beginning, preferable in the shape of a ball with lots and lots of spikes. Now, add antimagic field items to each spike so as to cover the entire area around it in a permanent antimagic field. Now no one can fly (via spells) and it shouldn't affect the fortress's flying abilities since the items are on the spikes at a convenient distance from your stronghold. You can deactivate part of the grid for authorised visitors. Add planeshifting and submersing capabilities.

As mentioned, wands of magic missile in gatling gun formation, for anything that does pass through, disjunction wands, darkbolt wands, sonic lance(if that's the name of the spell, something with sonic damage anyways, almost nobody has sonic resistance or immunity) wands, other assorted elemental damage types. Block anyone from teleporting in the usual ways (can't remember what that is now). Add a few mindrape casting items if you're feeling nasty...

If you want to make it even more difficult to locate, transport to your own personal plane...Supporting cast of wizards, clerics etc casting divinations.

Entry rooms should be permanently enchanted discern shapechanger (in case they're just mundanely disguised), 8 wands at the corners of the room with a greater dispel magic targetted on the person entering (each person must be processed in his undies + gets rid of that pesky midndblank), detect hostile intent, zone of truth and enough firepower to wipe out anything + mordekainen's disjunction wands.

Interrogators use a +20 (or 30 if you feel like it) sense motive item and true sight goggles. Mark of justice on everyone that wants to come inside.

Awaken it as mentioned before so it can tell you if anything has actually gotten through the defenses and is pounding on the walls to get in one way or another.

The walls should be made out of obdurium and have your wizards cast augment object on it every 5+days (lasts 1day/level) , 5 foot walls sound about fine, with the occasional exit as required and a small piece of double wall of force over it that can be deactivated to allow entry or exit as required...then cover all of that in a wall of force...

As guardians, you can use constructs equiped with winds of flying and contingencies to counter spells that can actually harm them. They never sleep, they never tire, they're immune to almost anything...what else could you ask for? Of course there's always going to be humans watching behind the walls...

Are they bankrupt yet?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 02:12 AM
I could break into that and cause serious damage with a well rounded party of at least 13th level. In fact, I could get in via magical flight.

kemmotar
2009-12-11, 02:19 AM
*goes over to a corner and mutters to himself*

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 02:24 AM
I could break into that and cause serious damage with a well rounded party of at least 13th level. In fact, I could get in via magical flight.Initiate of Mystra, Bluff checks, Raptoran+Bag of Holding smuggling, or simple fly over the top and fall?

Dixieboy
2009-12-11, 02:25 AM
I prefer the simple things. Build your fortress on the Positive Energy plane, be a Lich, and make sure your guards are all undead.


... that doesn't seem very smart. :smallconfused:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 02:28 AM
... that doesn't seem very smart. :smallconfused:The Positive Energy Plane grants Fast Healing, that turns into temp HP when your fully healed. If you double your HP, you need to make fort saves or explode. Undead are immune to things that require Fort saves.

Basically, on the Positive Energy Plane, Undead have NI HP while everything else risks Death by Awesome.

TheStagesmith
2009-12-11, 02:31 AM
Illusions. Lots and lots of illusions.
Throw in some Nystul's Magic Aura spells around the place: put them over effects that already are there, put some where there aren't any. Hide the entrances and make it look like there are entrances where there aren't any. Just in general make stuff that's actually there hard to find, and add in some stuff that isn't there that'll keep the PCs on their toes.

You might also want to consider enlisting the help of some sort of guardian beasts, such as solars or other suitably high-CR monsters. Consider giving them a teleportation utility of some kind, and having them teleport to random locations on the grounds a la random patrol patterns.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 02:34 AM
*goes over to a corner and mutters to himself*

Involves getting into an entry room. From there, AMF and orbspam in.

Your fortress does include errors.

1) Wands cannot exist above spell level 4.
2) Walls of force are flat, and cannot be molded to a sphere.
3) Spikes that the AMF's are on are vulnerable to orbspam, after which a couple disintegrates give you a new entry room.

Radiun
2009-12-11, 02:38 AM
Unlimited Resources?
Genesis a series of demiplanes, link them all with permanent portals. the entrance hall plane is rife with sorcerous kobolds (magic and mundane traps), is quite simply a giant rock riddled with tunnels, and has a few traps that plane shift people to other planes or use the resources of other planes to aid in defense (flood tunnels py openinng the hatch to the Elemental Plane of Water or some such.
Your Fortress is now infuriatingly difficult to invade, and nigh-impossible to destroy... well destroy within a day.

kemmotar
2009-12-11, 02:51 AM
Involves getting into an entry room. From there, AMF and orbspam in.

Your fortress does include errors.

1) Wands cannot exist above spell level 4.
2) Walls of force are flat, and cannot be molded to a sphere.
3) Spikes that the AMF's are on are vulnerable to orbspam, after which a couple disintegrates give you a new entry room.

1) Hmm didn't remember that...
2) wall of forces can be used in grid, don't need to actually touch and be molded to the sphere. That said, you could make the sphere itself grid like to accomodate the walls of force.
3) well every fortress has to have the most basic and most complicated defenses.

The point isn't to necessarily keep everything out, but the second they do go through the first array of defences, they have to deal with a barrage of magic missile, darkbolts, disjunctions...and a host of flying constructs.

Also, there's always flaws in the best plans and I haven't really researched it and i'm not a very good optimizer anyway...there's nothing that can stand up to forum created monstrosities...except perhaps the full version of punpun...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 02:59 AM
1) Hmm didn't remember that...
2) wall of forces can be used in grid, don't need to actually touch and be molded to the sphere. That said, you could make the sphere itself grid like to accomodate the walls of force.
3) well every fortress has to have the most basic and most complicated defenses.

The point isn't to necessarily keep everything out, but the second they do go through the first array of defences, they have to deal with a barrage of magic missile, darkbolts, disjunctions...and a host of flying constructs.

Also, there's always flaws in the best plans and I haven't really researched it and i'm not a very good optimizer anyway...there's nothing that can stand up to forum created monstrosities...except perhaps the full version of punpun...

Disjunction was on a wand. so it can't be there. There are no currently existing items that provide repeatable Disjunction. Closest I can think of is Magical Trap Abuse. Regardless, all of the spells you mentioned are stopped by "total cover" or "total concealment". Constructs are grounded with an area dispel, which is a rather common spell.

All of the spells I've suggested are relatively common ones. It's not a "pore through the books for XXX" approach. I prefer a more reasonable approach, even in the face of absurdity. It gives it a real Death Star vibe that I like.

kemmotar
2009-12-11, 03:14 AM
Oh well, you are of course correct...I guess there's much I didn't take into account, much I don't know and didn't predict.

The basic advice is contained in the good overlord's list, gamewise though, there's probably a way around everything. I need to brush up on my rules though, that is certain...

ShadowFighter15
2009-12-11, 03:43 AM
The Positive Energy Plane grants Fast Healing, that turns into temp HP when your fully healed. If you double your HP, you need to make fort saves or explode. Undead are immune to things that require Fort saves.

Basically, on the Positive Energy Plane, Undead have NI HP while everything else risks Death by Awesome.

There is however, one tiiiny flaw in that plan. Positive Energy is harmful to undead; a lich would last about ten seconds or so.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 04:13 AM
There is however, one tiiiny flaw in that plan. Positive Energy is harmful to undead; a lich would last about ten seconds or so.

The positive energy plane does not actually state that it constantly heals people with positive energy.

RAW, all it does is give everything fast healing. Undead can have fast healing. It functions normally for them.

It's inane and stupid and completely RAW.

bosssmiley
2009-12-11, 07:51 AM
Start digging (you can't teleport into somewhere you can't see)
Trap everything

Classic castles in D&D are just huge, highly visible piggy banks to mid-high level opposition. Hide the castle underground, and turn it into a giant magical deathtrap bunker.

(and that's why we have dungeons...)

dsmiles
2009-12-11, 08:06 AM
One word: Genesis.

Seconded.

Or the whole transformer thing.

ShadowFighter15
2009-12-11, 09:50 PM
The positive energy plane does not actually state that it constantly heals people with positive energy.

RAW, all it does is give everything fast healing. Undead can have fast healing. It functions normally for them.

It's inane and stupid and completely RAW.

Ah yes, how could I forget RAW abuse.


Start digging (you can't teleport into somewhere you can't see)
Trap everything

Classic castles in D&D are just huge, highly visible piggy banks to mid-high level opposition. Hide the castle underground, and turn it into a giant magical deathtrap bunker.

(and that's why we have dungeons...)

And on that note; Dwarf Fortress should give you inspiration for the more mundane parts of subterranean stronghold defence.

Radiun
2009-12-11, 09:52 PM
Ah yes, how could I forget RAW abuse.



And on that note; Dwarf Fortress should give you inspiration for the more mundane parts of subterranean stronghold defence.

Now now, moats filled with carp won't have quite the same impact as in DF ;-P

root9125
2009-12-11, 10:03 PM
I ended up with contingency abuse. If the regent says a command word, or anything or anyone casts a spell of Alarm, the turrets activate, every mage gets teleported to an area by the spellpool around which walls of force activate, and forbiddance activates. All in all, there's a 90% chance it'll stand up to direct attack. It ended up frustrating the hell out of my DM because he couldn't beat it. :biggrin: Thanks to whoever suggested forbiddance, it made an impossible fight winnable.

ShadowFighter15
2009-12-11, 10:31 PM
Now now, moats filled with carp won't have quite the same impact as in DF ;-P

True, but then the moat won't have to be the main threat; get a drawbridge to catapult anyone standing on it into a spike-covered wall. That's just the start though; you need a way to flood the antechamber with magma without it flooding the rest of the fort (or going back out the front door and boiling away most of the moat... better yet; fill the moat with magma as well), you need hallways literally covered in traps; not one safe place to stand. Probably something to keep flying invaders on the ground as well. Anti-Magic Field covering the corridor, maybe?

herrhauptmann
2009-12-11, 10:55 PM
Place it UNDER the Tomb of Horrors.

If your party is higher level than the Tomb calls for, just advance teh HD of the creatures living there, until you're satisfied.

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-11, 11:00 PM
I ended up with contingency abuse. If the regent says a compound word...
How I read this. I liked the idea of a regent so paranoid that he's willing to trigger all of his defenses on random elements of grammar.

Volkov
2009-12-11, 11:01 PM
The Positive Energy Plane grants Fast Healing, that turns into temp HP when your fully healed. If you double your HP, you need to make fort saves or explode. Undead are immune to things that require Fort saves.

Basically, on the Positive Energy Plane, Undead have NI HP while everything else risks Death by Awesome.

Actually, the positive energy plane affects undead much like negative plane affects the living.

sofawall
2009-12-11, 11:08 PM
Actually, the positive energy plane affects undead much like negative plane affects the living.

Is that your houserule, or do you have something to back it up?

Animato
2009-12-12, 03:59 AM
Defending in a siege?

Dwarves. Many.
And beer. Sieges makes we all thirsty.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-12-13, 02:06 PM
A big shifting maze, various incompetent minions, a swamp thats very smelly, and David Bowie's crotch. Just watch out for jail bait.Wow that's a ruthless reference. :)


Initiate of Mystra, Bluff checks, Raptoran+Bag of Holding smuggling, or simple fly over the top and fall?Hmm how to beat that one... Subjective gravity won't fix that (however editing the basic physical properties of the plane's physics could). Isn't there some field that 'pops' extra-dimensional things? Bluff is fair game. I thought IoM only worked on your AMFs not others? (its been a while since I looked at it)


Ah yes, how could I forget RAW abuse.Eh happens every so often. Perhaps it was your inner fairness? :smallredface:

RandomNPC
2009-12-13, 11:55 PM
Is that your houserule, or do you have something to back it up?

I'm fairly ceartain thats RAI vs RAW and there is nothing to back it up except pure logic.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 12:05 AM
I'm fairly ceartain thats RAI vs RAW and there is nothing to back it up except pure logic.

Logic and RAW unfortunately have little in common.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-14, 12:29 AM
I'm fairly ceartain thats RAI vs RAW and there is nothing to back it up except pure logic.It's a plane that makes people healthier until they explode. What is this 'logic' of which you speak?