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Rev.Scarecrow
2009-12-11, 02:39 AM
What are the best paths to having a high sneak attack bonus and what are some good things to increase the effectiveness of the damage. Is there any sorta way to deal sneak attack to constructs and other things that are immune to sneak attacks? Also what is the fastest way to get the highest sneak attack possible.

In other words sneak attack thread.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-11, 02:43 AM
dip rogue, then spellthief, then if your DM is nice, he'll change Ninja's sudden strike to sneak attack... and that's pretty damn good for 3rd level :smallbiggrin:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 02:46 AM
Penetrating Strike ACF, Dungeonscape. 1/2 SA things that are immune as long as you flank them. I prefer it to some of the type-specific options because it works on things like Fortification Armor.

Craven feat, adds HD to SA. 10 bonus damage at level 10 is nothing to sneeze at.

1-level Swordsage dip after level 3 adds 2d6 SA in a single level(also doable by taking 2 feats).

Factotum, of course.

TWF is the easiest way to get lots of SA very often. Generally best combined with free movement.

Scout works well combined with the above and Swift Ambusher for an additional handful of dice.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-11, 02:49 AM
Assassin's stance is a 3rd level stance. Not 2nd. Need at least 8 non-martial adept levels before swordsage dip for that.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 03:03 AM
Note: Craven is +10 damage per attack.

Mobility feats (such as Travel Domain) are a godsend to you, as they'll get you into position.

Otherwise, consider a level of barbarian for pounce, and go pounce+TWF from a flanking/Improved invisibility situation.

Note: Barbarian, with an Extra Rage, will generally get you enough rage to have a steady +2 damage per attack per encounter, as well, so you get a bit more, on top of pounce.

Alternately, you can go ranged, and use light throwing weapons (daggers?) at a minor penalty to hit (far shot is a must), and there's less need for movement.

Malacode
2009-12-11, 03:42 AM
Note: Craven is +HD damage per sneak attack die.


Fixed that for you :)

gorfnab
2009-12-11, 03:46 AM
Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape will get around some of the sneak attack problems with undead and constructs. Demolition and Truedeath crystals and the spells Golem and Grave strike can also help with sneak attacking constructs/undead. Hunters Eye spell can give you +1d6/3CL sneak attack.

Classes that grant sneak attack

PHB
Rogue 1, 3, 5, 7.../20

DMG
Arcane Trickster: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (full caster advancement)
Assassin: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 1, gain minor arcane casting)
Blackguard: 4, 7, 10/10 (gain divine casting at level 1, full BAB)

Psionic
Pionic Rogue: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19/20
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

Book of Exalted Deeds
Slayer of Domiel: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (Death Touch at level 1, gain divine casting at level 1)
Sacred Strike, feat, against evil creatures roll d8 for damage instead of d6

Book of Vile Darkness
Cancer Mage: 1, 5, 9/10
Disciple of Baalzebub: 2, 5, 8/10

Complete Warrior (all full BAB)
Dark Hunter: 3/5 (Death Attack at level 5)
Darkwood Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at level 10)
Invisible Blade: 1, 3, 5/5 ("dagger" only, faint as free action 1/round)
Justiciar: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (nonlethal strike)
Ronin: 1, 4, 7, 10/10

Complete Divine
Black Flame Zealot: 3, 6, 9/10 (Death Attack at 1, advances divine half)
Temple Raider of Olidammara: 2, 5, 8/10 (gain divine spells at level 1)

Complete Adventurer
Ninja: 1, 3, 5, 7.../20 (Sudden Strike)
Spellthief: 1, 5, 9, 13, 17/20 (gains arcane casting at level 4)
Daggerspell Mage: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances arcane 9/10)
Daggerspell Shaper: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 9/10)
Dread Pirate (dishonourable): 3, 7/10 (full BAB)
Ghost-Faced Killer: 2, 5, 8/10 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)
Nightsong Enforcer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Nightsong Infiltrator: 4, 8/10 (Teamwork Sneak Attack)
Shadowbane Inquisitor: 4, 7, 10/10 (full BAB)
Shadowbane Stalker: 3, 6, 9/10 (advances divine 8/10)
Shadowmind: 2, 5, 8/10 (advances manifesting class 7/10)
Spymaster: 3, 6/7
Streetfighter: 3/5

Complete Psionic
Lurk: 2, 7, 12, 17/20 (psionic sneak attack, only functions while psionically focused)
Ebon Saint: 3/5 (sneak attack or psionic sneak attack)

Complete Mage
Unseen Seer 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; full arcane advancement)

Complete Scoundrel
Avenging Executioner: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, gain abilities to make opponent flatfooted)
Cloaked Dancer: 2, 4/5 (suprise strike, 3/5 arcane advancement)
Mountebank 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7, Complete Scoundrel
Psibond 3, 6, 9/10, ecl 8, Complete Scoundrel
Master of Masks 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6, only while wearing the Assassin Mask
spellwarp sniper 2, 4/5, ecl 8, (sudden raystrike, see text)

Complete Champion
Mythic Examplar (Dardallion): 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (early entry ecl 5, advances casting 4/10)

Deities and Demigods
Justiciar of Taiia: 1, 4, 7, 10/10, ecl 6 (gain minor divine spellcasting at level 1)

Draconomicon
Dragonstalker: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (gains 2d6 sneak attack each time, only effective against dragons, full BAB)

Dragon Magic:
Hand of the Winged Masters: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl ?? (sneak attack or sudden strike or skirmish)
Dragon Descendant 3 (subtle ancestor), ecl 8: gain 2d6, see text (also stacks for certain monk abilities)

Fiendish Codex II - Tyrants of the Nine Hells:
Hellbreaker 3, 6, 9/10 (can also steal spell-like or supernatural abilities)

Cityscape
Ebonmar Infiltrator: 2, 5, 8/10, ecl 7 (gain minor Int based arcane casting)

Heroes of Battle
Dread Commando: 1, 3, 5/5 (Sudden Strike, full BAB)

Magic of Incarnum
Umbral Disciple: 2, 5, 8/10

Miniatures Handbook
Skullclan Hunter: 3, 6, 9/10 (can "sneak attack" undead at level 2, read "Divine Strike" wording carefully, not actually sneak attack... I think)
Tactical Soldier: read "Flanker" ability

Planar Handbook
Fatemaker: 3, 6, 9/10 (gains minor Cha based arcane casting)

Races of Destiny
Chameleon: see text
Menacing Brute: 3/5 (full BAB)
Scar Enforcer: 3,6,9/10 (advance half caster)

Races of the Dragon
Dragon Devotee 2, 4/5, ecl 7, (either sneak attack, sudden strike, or skirmish; advances sorcerer casting 2/5)

Races of Stone
Blade Bravo: 4, 8/10 (melee only, full BAB)
Stonedeath Assassin: 2, 4/5 (Stonedeath Strike at level 5)

Races of the Wild
Whisperknife: 2, 5, 8/10 (full BAB)

Sandstorm
Scorpion Heritor: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10
race: Marrulurk, small Monstrous Humanoid, 3 HD, +1 LA (ECL 4), 2d6 sneak attack

Stormwrack
Scarlet Corsair 2, 6, 10/10 (full BAB, faint as free action once per 2d4 or 1d4 rounds)

Tome of Battle:
Assassin's Stance, Shadow Hand Stance - gain 2d6 sneak attack

Tome of Magic:
Andromalius vestige - see text
Malphas vestige - see text (sudden strike)
Shadowblade 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10 (sudden strike, at level 3 gain ability to deny opponent their dex bonus)

Expedition to Castle Ravenloft
Rogue 3: "Penetrating Strike" - exchange trapsense for the ability to do half you sneak attack damage against undead

Eberron: Five Nations
Dark Lantern: 2, 4, 6, 8, 10/10

Magic of Eberron
Vigilant Sentinal of Aerenal: 2, 4/5

Eberron: Secrets of Xen'drik
Scorpion Wraith: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, full BAB)

Eberron: Secrets of Sarlona
Fist of Dal Quor: 1, 3, 5/5 (sudden strike, also gain stunning attacks)

Eberron: Faiths of Eberron
Thief of Life: 2, 6, 10/10

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (3.0)
The Divine Seeker: 2, 4/5
Guild Thief: 1, 3, 5/5

FR: Champions of Ruin
Justice of Weald and Woe: 3, 7/10 (death attack at level 10, gain minor diving casting)
Night Mask Deathbringer: 4, 8/10
Shade Hunter: 4, 8/10 (gain minor arcane casting)

FR: Unapproachable East
Thayan Slaver: 4, 7, 10/10

FR: Lords of Darkness
Darkmask: 3/5

FR: Lost Empires of Faerun
Cultists of the Shattered Peak: 2, 4/5 (Death Attack at level 5, gain minor arcane casting)
Magelord: 1, 5, 9/10 (full arcane advancement)

FR: Races of Faerun
Warsling Sniper: 1, 3, 5/6, ecl 6, warsling only

FR: Player's Guide to Faerun
Shadow Thief of Amn: 1, 3, 5/5
Zhentarim Spy: 2, 4/5

FR: Serpent Kingdoms
Fang of Sseth: 1, 4, 7, 10/10

FR: Shining South
Crinti Shadow Marauder: 2, 4/5 (Sudden Strike, gains a "Shadow Pounce" at level 5)

FR: Silver Marches
Orc Scout: 3/5
Peerless Archer: 1, 4, 7, 10/10 (ranged only)

FR: Underdark
Imaskari Vengeance Taker: 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (half arcane advancement)

FR: Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lloth: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9/10 (sudden strike, full BAB)
Eye of Lloth: 2, 5, 8/10 (half caster)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 04:12 AM
Fixed that for you :)

It's actually +Class Level damage per sneak attack, if you want to get technical.

Not per die. And not HD. Only class level gives it to you.

Myrmex
2009-12-11, 04:51 AM
I recommend taking a couple levels of swordsage at levels 9 & 10, for +2d6 SA stance, the ability to teleport (at will!!!), the ability to turn invisible for a round as a swift action, and dex to damage (for a feat). And you don't lose and BAB and barely any skills.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 04:57 AM
Here's a vote against the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree for Rogues. You can't get wide threat range weapons that you can use at reasonable cost for both hands. With the introduction of Craven the sneak attack computation changed, because while sneak attack dice don't get multiplied on a critical hit, constant bonuses do get multiplied. So you're better off with a keen rapier (15-20 threat range) than dual weapons.

dsmiles
2009-12-11, 05:03 AM
Here's a vote against the Two-Weapon Fighting feat tree for Rogues. You can't get wide threat range weapons that you can use at reasonable cost for both hands. With the introduction of Craven the sneak attack computation changed, because while sneak attack dice don't get multiplied on a critical hit, constant bonuses do get multiplied. So you're better off with a keen rapier (15-20 threat range) than dual weapons.

Or dual keen kukris. Less base damage, but when you're dual wielding 15-20 threat range weapons with a million and a half sneak attack dice added in for good measure, who cares about 1 or 2 points of damage from the weapon.

Myrmex
2009-12-11, 05:06 AM
TWF is still better, since reliance on critical hits when you are already restricted to only being able to do a lot of damage to non-crit immune foes sucks. TWF damage is amplified by getting the Shadow Hand feat. Actually, when you dip Swordsage, you get proficiency with kukris, so you can go ahead and get 'em keened. Level 8 is about the time you can afford to sink 16k into your weapons, anyhow.

A swordsage dip as a rogue gives you a lot more than you lose (very low cost to getting kukri proficiency). Teleportation, a lot more damage, and invisibility, without losing any skills, and pushing those rogue special abilities back by 2 levels (meh). Very worth it, imo.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 05:27 AM
Or dual keen kukris.
Except those are really expensive:

Martial Weapon Proficiency feat required, or you'll never hit.
Two-Weapon Fighting feat required, or you'll never hit.
You've also got to spend twice as much on weapons as the Rogue who isn't forced to take those two feats.

BobVosh
2009-12-11, 05:32 AM
If you can't get Penetrating Strike I recommend a wand of death strike. Or something like that. Lets you sneak attack undead. There is a golem one as well. Both are in SpC.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 05:32 AM
2 levels of swordsage, around level 9, covers proficiency. You make up the loss of Sneak attack with a single stance, and get other useful abilities too.

The feat and gold cost is in there, yes.

And sneak attack dice don't get multiplied, so no 1.5 million dice.

Craven is a static bonus though, so it does get multiplied.

So for a Rogue 9/Swdsage 2 character, every hit will give 9-11 from craven (depending on whether you view swdsage as a class granting sneak attack, since it got you the feat; I don't). Every crit is 18-22.

So Craven + keen is viable.

Myrmex
2009-12-11, 05:37 AM
Except those are really expensive:
Martial Weapon Proficiency feat required, or you'll never hit.

Swordsage.


Two-Weapon Fighting feat required, or you'll never hit.

Worth the extra damage.


You've also got to spend twice as much on weapons as the Rogue who isn't forced to take those two feats.


There's no rule requiring you to enhance both your weapons. You can enhance only one weapon and still do more damage than the rogue who doesn't TWF. With the right maneuvers, you can have double the number of attacks of a pure rogue at level 10.

And did I mention improved invisibility as a swift action? That blows pure rogue out of the water.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 05:42 AM
2 levels of swordsage, around level 9, covers proficiency. It's not a bad answer, just not one I like as much. I think you get a lot more by going with Cloistered Cleric:
Knowledge domain, which you can trade in for Knowledge Devotion
Travel Domain, which you can trade in for Travel Devotion -- much superior to the Shadow Jaunt-type maneuvers due to the recovery limitation; a CC with CHA 12 gets 30 swift action moves daily
ability to cast Grave Strike and any number of other useful spells


So for a Rogue 9/Swdsage 2 character, every hit will give 9-11 from craven (depending on whether you view swdsage as a class granting sneak attack No, it's always +11 for 11 class levels. There's no dependency on your viewpoint in Craven.

Myrmex
2009-12-11, 06:04 AM
Does knowledge devotion net you that much bonus damage as a rogue, though? You don't get that many knowledge skills. I guess local, dungeoneering, +1 from knowledge devotion. Fairly situational, though depends on the campaign. Shadow Blade is +4 to +6 damage on every attack, gets multiplied with a crit, and applies to crit immune monsters.

While gravestrike is VERY handy, you only get to use it 2 or 3 times a day, and that's forsaking preparation of any other 1st level spells, and it only lasts 1 round.

You can also take a feat to get your maneuvers back quicker.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 06:21 AM
It's not a bad answer, just not one I like as much. I think you get a lot more by going with Cloistered Cleric:
Knowledge domain, which you can trade in for Knowledge Devotion
Travel Domain, which you can trade in for Travel Devotion -- much superior to the Shadow Jaunt-type maneuvers due to the recovery limitation; a CC with CHA 12 gets 30 swift action moves daily
ability to cast Grave Strike and any number of other useful spells

No, it's always +11 for 11 class levels. There's no dependency on your viewpoint in Craven.

Well, the down side of that Travel devotion is that they're in 3 chunks of 10 rounds, which is often longer than you need. So, in essence, it's 3 encounters. Not bad.

Knowledge Devotion is a good feat, though there's speculation on whether you can trade it, as the devotion feat section states that you can change one of a Cleric's two starting domains for a domain feat. Knowledge Domain isn't one of those two. This does have room for argument both ways; check with your DM.

There are a few useful spells, yes. Frankly, though, 1-2 quick jaunts to get in position, followed by good use of the 5 foot step is usually sufficient. Swordsage gets that for every encounter. Swordsage also gives you sneak attack, via stance.

Ultimately, you can UMD a gravestrike wand cheaply. And for a rogue, with UMD as a class skill, it's a viable tactic to UMD (class skill) a wand with a spell specifically designed to impact a rogue class feature.

In addition, you can add a desert wind boost into your attacks, for more damage = your initiator level (which multiplies on a critical hit, as it's static).

So both tactics are viable. I personally prefer the swordsage route, though nothing's stopping you from doing both. After all, Swordsage repays its sneak attack in, and then some (a 2 level dip gives you +2d6, same as 4 levels of rogue).

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 06:30 AM
Does knowledge devotion net you that much bonus damage as a rogue, though? You don't get that many knowledge skills. You get as many Knowledge skills as you want. Remember, this is in conjunction with Cloistered Cleric, which starts with Knowledge domain; that makes all Knowledge skills class skills for you. You lose that when you convert the domain to the feat, but you don't have to do so immediately; you could rack up a bunch of levels of skill points first. You could also take Knowledge Devotion directly, or Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) to make all Knowledges class skills for all classes; that's my preference.

But the important thing that makes Knowledge Devotion work for a Rogue is their special abilities: Skill Mastery lets you always "take 10" on all your mastered skills, and Savvy Rogue lets you instead "take 12". Basically by the time you get to the 'teens you can guarantee that you'll get the maximum +5 to attack and damage against everything, with no rolling required. That's like picking up full BAB and +10 STR. Of course the important part of that is the bonus to hit, because sneak attack is where the real damage comes from. If you don't hit, your sneak attack damage is zero.

You can also take a feat to get your maneuvers back quicker.
Yeah; I'm not impressed. Even with a questionable interpretation of Adaptive Style it still uses up a full-round action in the middle of combat, just so you can use a maneuver twice instead of once in an encounter. I like 10 swift action moves in a row, guaranteed, a lot better than I like Shadow Blink 1/encounter.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 06:51 AM
Knowledge Devotion is a good feat, though there's speculation on whether you can trade it, as the devotion feat section states that you can change one of a Cleric's two starting domains for a domain feat.
I think reading Clerics and Domain Feats (Complete Champion, page 53) more carefully is a good idea. There's no mention at all of two domains in the option to swap:
In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. It's only non-Clerics who are limited to two domain feats. There's no requirement to make the swap when you first get the domain, so you can do it at any time. There's no requirement that you obtain any domain feats directly, as opposed to through the swap mechanism. The swap is fixed at 1:1 ratio (a single feat for a domain), and can be performed as long as you don't exceed three domain feats. That's it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 08:28 AM
I think reading Clerics and Domain Feats (Complete Champion, page 53) more carefully is a good idea. There's no mention at all of two domains in the option to swap: It's only non-Clerics who are limited to two domain feats. There's no requirement to make the swap when you first get the domain, so you can do it at any time. There's no requirement that you obtain any domain feats directly, as opposed to through the swap mechanism. The swap is fixed at 1:1 ratio (a single feat for a domain), and can be performed as long as you don't exceed three domain feats. That's it.

I could say the same. That text allows a cleric to exchange a domain for a devotion feat. You get one.

So exchanging Travel AND Knowledge is a no-no. You may select up to two, spending feats as normal, and in addition, you may also trade domains for a third (granted as a bonus feat).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-11, 08:34 AM
So Just a thought for highest SA dmg, just using base classes... can't think of any prc's atm.

Not in this order:
Rogue 1/spellthief1/ninja 2(just for the greater invis)/scout 3/SA Fighter 1/ barbarian 1 Whirlwind rage thing and lion totem/ SS 1/assasin 1


feats
1. twf
3.craven
6.swift ambusher
9. Improved skirmish

so that's 7d6 SA and i belive 5d6 skirmish.
Bab is +5 at 10th...

You can also pounce. I would make sure Tumble is maxed out... 12 level i would take travel devotion... can you use devotion and tumble through AoO's


i would grab a level in wizard or sorc if assasin doesn't qualify you then go unseen seer maybe or some other rogue prc...

not the most optimised but it does do alot of d6's

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-11, 10:44 AM
I never understood the draw of boosting criticals on a Rogue. Yes, its a boost in damage, but not as much of one as, say, a Fighter would get, and in the process you're giving up the Assassination or similar properties.

GolemsVoice
2009-12-11, 10:50 AM
There is also the Rogue's Vest from the Magic Item Compendium. It adds +1d6 to your Sneak Attack, and grants +2 boni to hide and move silently, I think. Vest slot, obviously. Deadly Precicison also helps you boost the damage, as you can reroll 1s, though it doesn't grant more dice. It's not the most powerful of feats, as has been pointed our repeatedly when this topic came up, but I find it to be very satisfying. :smallbiggrin:

Thespianus
2009-12-11, 10:52 AM
I never understood the draw of boosting criticals on a Rogue. Yes, its a boost in damage, but not as much of one as, say, a Fighter would get, and in the process you're giving up the Assassination or similar properties.

Boosting criticals for a Rogue with the Telling Blow feat makes a lot of sense.

Adding your Sneak Attack damage on all criticals is a lot of fun, even if it might be a sub-optimal way to gain Sneak Attack damage.

Also, while on the subject of gaining Sneak Attack dice, getting access to the Ranger spell Hunter's Eye (probably through levels as an Arcane Caster, going into Unseen Seer) will give you a nice magical boost to your sneak attacks.

Person_Man
2009-12-11, 11:20 AM
Here's a really simple guide to being a Rogue:

1) The most important Skills are Use Magic Device, Tumble, Listen, Spot, and Sleight of Hand. In particular, Use Magic Device lets you use Wands easily, which can let you do pretty much anything you want (if you can afford it). Tumble gets you in position to Flank. Listen and Spot lets you participate in the Surprise Round. Sleight of Hand can be used to steal anything that isn't being held (such as spell component pouches, holy symbols, quivers) as a Free Action. If you want to ambush enemies or scout, take Hide and Move Silently. If your DM uses a lot of traps take Search and Disable Device. Everything else is either very build specific or fluff.

2) Decide whether you want to be a ranged Rogue or a melee Rogue. Ranged is safer, but takes a lot more feats. Melee is easier and often more effective, but more dangerous (because it's easier for enemies to hit back).

3) Decide what feats you want. Here is a list of Sneak Attack feats (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66915). And the official Feat index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats). And crystalkeep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) and realmshelp (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/datafind/feats.shtml).

In my opinion, the most important Rogue feats are:

Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty.

Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack. Ridiculously useful against boss enemies, in that it prevents them from making a full attack or casting a full round action spells.

Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack. The equivalent of Power Attack without reducing your To-Hit bonus.

4) Find a way to get extra attacks. Here's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) dedicated to the subject.

5) Figure out how to qualify for Sneak Attack on every attack you make. Here's a handy list:


Ways to Qualify for Sneak Attack:

1) Ambush: If you ambush your enemy, you get a free Surprise Round against them. A Flat Footed enemy loses their Dex bonus until they act. Remember the the Surprise Round is only a Standard Action. So you'll need Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot_(Feat)) or Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) (remember that you can still Charge (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Charge) if your actions are limited) to get a full attack.

2) Win Initiative: If you win Initiative, you enemy is still Flat Footed, and still denied their Dex bonus.

3) Flanking: Have someone summon a lot of weak creatures. Here's a good list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5876523&postcount=16) of magic items to do just that.

4) More Flanking: Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a lot of dogs. They're cheap and easy to train.

5) Still More Flanking: Invest in Tumble, get behind your enemies, have your party's meatshield fight in front of them.

6) Yet More Flanking: Adaptable Flanker feat (PHBII) allows you to flank from any square. Combine with a reach weapon, and now you can stand next to or even behind a friend and still flank an enemy.

7) Tome of Battle Flanking: Island of Blades, a Shadow Hand stance allows you to flank from any square as long as you and an ally are both adjacent to the enemy. You can get this from a one level dip into Swordsage, or by taking the Martial Study -> Martial Stance feats.

8) Dear Gods, How Much Flanking Do We Need?: Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar, if you can cast arcane spells. Now you have a full time friend to Flank with, and he can Share Spells with you (like Alter Self and Greater Invisibility).

9) Armor Lock: 1st level spell from Complete Scoundrel that works on enemies wearing armor. Buy a wand.

10) Greater Invisibility: Once your party hits level 7ish, there's really no reason someone in your group shouldn't cast this on you at the start of every combat.

11) Ring of Blinking: If you're party members are jerks and refuse to cast Greater Invisibility on you, use this item instead. Pick up the Pierce Magical Concealment feat (Complete Arcane) to ignore your 20% miss chance.

12) Skill Tricks: Again, check out the Complete Scoundrel. Skill Tricks can be very useful (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633).

13) Fear: If your enemy is Cowering, he loses his Dex bonus. There are a large variety of ways to get and use Fear effects, and a variety of ways to corner or immobilize him.

14) Stun: If your enemy is stunned, he loses his Dex bonus. Work with the Monk in your party, or ask the caster to use spells with this effect.

15) Blind: If your enemy is blind, he loses his Dex bonus. There are spells and alchemical items that do this.

16) Helpless: There are a variety of spells and a few effects that render your foe paralyzed or otherwise helpless. A Rogue's Coup de Grace almost never fails.

17) Hide in Plain Site: There are many ways to get this. My favorite is a dip into Warlock let's you Hide in Plain Site (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352) every round as a Swift action. This means that any enemy who fails their Spot check is denied their Dex bonus against your next attack. Not efficient if you want to make full attacks, but helpful nonetheless.

18) Grappling: An opponent who is grappled loses their Dex bonus to everyone except the grappler, another way to tag team with your party members. Or invest in Handle animal and buy mules, which are a cheap and effective Grapple partner.

19) Net, Razor Net, Lasso: Each of these is a touch attack that imposes a -4 penalty on Dex. Penalties from different sources stack. Enemies with 0 Dex count as being paralyzed. I wouldn't even bother with taking the Exotic Weapon feats, because touch attacks are easy, so the -4 penalty to hit is palatable. Though I would definitely invest in Spell Storing weapons, and find spells that deal Dex damage/penalties. Here's a list (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6342523&postcount=23) of ways to deal Dex damage.

20) Feint: This is a retarded waste of an action in most cases. But it works well at low levels if you're not using TWF, and if you're an Invisible Blade with the Surprising Riposte feat (Drow of the Underdark), it works for a full attack.

21) Telling Blow (PHBII): When you crit, you also deal Sneak Attack. I'm not a fan of this method. It doesn't double your Sneak Attack if you flank and crit, WotC has made it clear that it just let's you qualify. So at best 30% of your attacks get Sneak Attack. There are many better uses for your feats, IMO.

22) More Tome of Battle Craziness: There are a bunch of manuevers which render your enemy Flat Footed or otherwise deny them their Dex bonus, especially in the Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand disciplines. You can also get Sneak Attack via the Assassin's Stance, which still qualifies you for the best Sneak Attack feats (Staggering Strike, Craven, etc). So in many ways a Swordsage is a better Sneak Attacker then the Rogue. (Or you can go Rogue 1/Swordsage X or Swordsage X/Nightsong Enforcer 1 so that you can use other stances).

Ormagoden
2009-12-11, 11:22 AM
I run a fighter 4, swash 5, rogue 3 TWF as a PC in one of my campaigns.

He dual wields rapiers and is quite nasty. (Not insanely optimized) But quite nasty. Even with minimal low magic (master work weapons and +2 leather) equipment

His build looks like this:

CLASS ABILITIES
Proficient in all armor, and all shields(including tower shields)
Proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with Hand Crossbow.
Trap Sense(Ex): +1 to Reflex saves and AC against traps.
Evasion(Ex): On a successful Reflex save against a magical attack,
you take no damage.
Sneak Attack: Any time someone you attack is denied their Dexterity
bonus to AC, or you are flanking them, you inflict an extra 4d6
damage. Ranged attacks must be within 30 feet to gain this, and this
extra damage is not increased on a critical hit. Creatures that are
immune to critical hits ignore this damage, as do creatures with concealment
Trapfinding(Ex): You can use the Search skill to locate traps when
the task has a DC higher than 20. You can use the Disable Device
skill to disarm magic traps.
Grace(Ex): When wearing light or no armor, and carrying a light
load you gain a +2 competence bonus on Reflex saves.
Insightful Strike(Ex): When wearing light or no armor, and carrying
a light load you gain a +4 as a bonus on damage rolls with any light
or finesseable weapons. You do not gain this bonus to damage against
creatures immune to critical hits.
Dodge Bonus(Ex): When wearing light or no armor, and carrying a
light load you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC against a designated foe.

FEATS
Combat Expertise (PH 92) : Trade attack bonus for AC (max 5 points).
Improved Disarm (PH 95) : +4 bonus on disarm attempts; no attack of opportunity.
Combat Reflexes (PH 92) : Additional attacks of opportunity.
Improved Critical (PH 95) (Rapier) : Double threat range of weapon.
Persuasive (PH 98) : +2 bonus on Bluff and Intimidate checks.
Skill Focus (PH 100) (Bluff) : +3 bonus on checks with selected skill.
Two-Weapon Fighting (PH 102) : Reduce two-weapon fighting penalties
by 2.
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (PH 96) : Gain second off-hand attack.
Weapon Finesse (PH 102) : Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier
on attack rolls with light melee weapons.
Weapon Focus (PH 102) (Rapier) : +1 bonus on attack rolls with
selected weapon.
Weapon Specialization (PH 102) (Rapier) : +2 bonus on damage rolls
with selected weapon.
Power Critical (CW 103) (Rapier) : +4 bonus to confirm critical
with one weapon.
Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting (CAd 111) : Treat one-handed weapon
in off hand as if light weapon
Daring Outlaw (CS 76) : Rogue and swashbuckler levels stack for
grace, dodge bonus, and sneak attack.
Daring Warrior (CS 76) : Fighter and swashbuckler levels stack for
grace, dodge bonus, and feats.
SKILL TRICKS
Acrobatic Backstab (Movement)(Pg 84) : Move through foe's space to
render it flat-footed.
Back on Your Feet (Movement)(Pg 85) : React immediately to stand up
from prone.
Nimble Charge (Movement)(Pg 87) : Run or charge across difficult
surface without Balance check.
Nimble Stand (Movement)(Pg 88) : Stand from prone safely.
TRAITS
Dishonest (UA Pg 87) : +1 on Bluff checks, -2 on Diplomacy.
FLAWS
Weak immune system: -4 fort vs diseases
Poison Susceptibility: -4 fort vs poisons
Medicine dependency: Must have medicine every day or -8 fort vs
diseases and poisons

It's not maxed out crazy sneak attacks but this guy takes on 3-4 guys at a time and doesn't break a sweat...that is until I have to roll a fort save vs poisoned weapons :smallsigh:

Doomboy911
2009-12-11, 11:23 AM
Take up shadow dancer so you can hide in plain sight.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-11, 11:46 AM
Take up shadow dancer so you can hide in plain sight.

There are easier ways to get Hide in plain sight, for example the Dark template ( a personal favorite) for +1 LA gives you Hide in plain sight, superior low-light vision, darkvision resistance to cold 10 (meh) a +6 to move silently and a +8 to hide

jiriku
2009-12-11, 12:04 PM
When you multiclass, leave the sneak-granting classes at an odd level. For example, rogue 9 has a 5d6 sneak attack, but rogue 5/spellthief 1/assassin 1/swordsage 2 in assassin's stance has a 7d6 sneak attack.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 12:33 PM
There are easier ways to get Hide in plain sight, for example the Dark template ( a personal favorite) for +1 LA gives you Hide in plain sight, superior low-light vision, darkvision resistance to cold 10 (meh) a +6 to move silently and a +8 to hide

For many classes, that's true. However, shadowdancer falls in line with most skills a rogue wants anyway... And dodge/mobility/combat reflexes isn't a horrible chain, when you take a better version of dodge.

Dusk Eclipse
2009-12-11, 12:37 PM
For many classes, that's true. However, shadowdancer falls in line with most skills a rogue wants anyway... And dodge/mobility/combat reflexes isn't a horrible chain, when you take a better version of dodge.

True, but I still like the other goodies besides Hide in plain sight.

And by better versions of dodge do you mean stuff like Expeditous Dodge?

Curmudgeon
2009-12-11, 05:55 PM
That text allows a cleric to exchange a domain for a devotion feat. You get one.
Exactly. One feat for one domain.

So exchanging Travel AND Knowledge is a no-no. That doesn't follow. You just repeat the process, with one domain turning into one feat again. After all, there's no requirement about when you make the exchange, so you can swap Travel for Travel Devotion when you first get it, and swap Knowledge for Knowledge Devotion after you've gotten a few levels of skill ranks. Each swap is independent, except for the limit of only 3 domain feats allowed.

Kobold-Bard
2009-12-11, 07:50 PM
UMD a Minor Schema of Polymorph and turn yourself into a Hydra?