Han Solo vs. Malcolm Reynolds [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Dervag

2009-12-11, 01:46 PM

The idea of a matchup between Han Solo of Star Wars and Malcolm Reynolds of Firefly occurred to me when I was driving home one day, and I realized just how much science fiction fandom's two favorite smugglers have in common.

I'm going to lay down some ground rules, then set up a number of scenarios. Please read the ground rules before making comments like "X wins because they don't understand Y" or "A wins because A has better technology than B." Broadly speaking, I think that for fairness' sake, we should place both characters in the Star Wars setting, adjust the Firefly crew's background to match, and upgrade their technology so that they are not operating at a gross disadvantage against Star Wars characters.

By the way, I have my own opinions about who would win some of the scenarios; I just choose not to share them for the moment.

==========

-Rule #1: Technological parity
This is not a debate over whether Star Wars technology is more impressive than Firefly 'verse technology; this is a debate involving two men, their character, their crews, and their capabilities. I am not interested in whether the Millenium Falcon can generate more electricity than Serenity, or whether blasters are better than slugthrowing handguns. I already know the answers to those questions, and will cheerfully share them with anyone who requests, so there's no point in trying to reduce this argument to "Star Wars technology is better, so Han wins." This isn't about turbolasers or hyperdrives; it's about Han Solo.

In particular, Firefly does not invoke FTL travel; obviously this would make it difficult for a Firefly smuggler to compete in an interstellar arena. Likewise, Firefly sticks to weapons that could plausibly exist in the near future (mostly bullet-firing weapons and rockets), not hyper-energetic beam weapons.

To keep these issues from overriding the actual question of interest, I propose that we "upgrade" the technological capabilities of Mal's ship and crew into the same relative position in Star Wars that they now enjoy relative to their own setting... (more discussion follows)
For instance, Reynolds' ship Serenity is not especially fast compared to other ships of its setting; when it is upgraded to compete in Star Wars it should not be especially fast in that setting, either. It should be average. This still gives Han a speed advantage, because his ship is "the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy..." but the advantage is no longer gigantic, the way it would be without the upgrade.

Likewise, Reynolds' crew are armed with weapons that are not the most advanced or powerful hand weapons in their setting. We upgrade the pistols to blasters (or slugthrowers equivalent to blasters)... but not the best blasters, because they weren't the best guns in the 'verse to begin with, with the possible exception of Jayne's rifle Vera. Just average blasters, the way they had average pistols before.

Likewise, Serenity has no heavy weapons, and this does not change; if they did have weapons those weapons would be upgraded into commercial-grade laser cannons or some such in Star Wars.

-Rule #2: Crew
Both Han and Mal pick up and leave members of their crews at various times. For both men, one of their great strengths is that they have earned the loyalty and friendship of effective people.

For consistency's sake, I want to establish a baseline as to who is available as an ally to whom. We use Malcolm Reynolds with the crew of Serenity as of the later part of the TV series, but before the events of the episode "Heart of Gold" or the movie Serenity. Inara and Book are still on the ship; River has not yet displayed her full combat capabilities, and Wash is still alive.

We use Han Solo as of some time between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back. In theory he's still an independent operator, not a full-time agent of the Rebel Alliance; in practice he's getting increasingly attached to them. He's got Chewbacca watching his back. The droids R2-D2 and C3-PO, Princess Leia, and Luke Skywalker may or may not be along, at your option, but remember that this is before Luke gets any serious Jedi training.

-Rule #3: Equal Contacts
Obviously, either Han or Mal would benefit enormously from having a home team advantage. They know their own home ports best, the criminal underworld of their home ports knows them best, and so on. To make things fair, they should have roughly equal knowledge about the planets they're visiting, the local laws, and the culture and criminal element on those worlds. They also have about the same reputation on any worlds they land on as they would on similar worlds in their respective home turf.

-Rule #4: Overlapped Settings
For the sake of creating a broad arena for them to compete in, I propose to overlay certain aspects of Firefly's 'verse onto the Star Wars galaxy. The heavies of the piece are the Empire, but like the Firefly Alliance, the Empire is assumed to be relatively popular in the Core worlds thanks to a combination of propaganda and policies that favor those worlds. The failed 'Independents' movement that plays such a prominent role in Mal's background is replaced with a large-scale Rim secessionist movement, one that tried and failed to secure independence from the Empire around ten years ago, after the Clone Wars but before the rise of the Rebel Alliance as we now know them. The characters River and Simon are still wanted fugitives from the central government, for more or less the same reasons (perhaps River had been spotted as having latent Force abilities and taken away to be trained as an Emperor's Hand?).

===========

Now for the interesting part: the scenarios! I'm setting this up as a pentathlon, in which both Reynolds and Solo compete, directly or indirectly, to achieve a goal with the help of some or all of their crews.

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
This is the simplest one. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne wind up embroiled in a large-scale fight in a cantina; Han and Chewie are on the opposite side of the fight.

Victory can take one of two forms:
1)One team disables all members of the other team in direct combat, or
2)Both teams compete to disentangle themselves from the fight and escape without getting shot full of holes or having any particularly important limbs torn off.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
Both Han and Mal have settled onto a relatively profitable trade route that involves sneaking valuable biological materials from their planet of origin to a trading hub in a relatively populous sector. The catch? The Navy is holding fleet exercises in the area, so there are a disproportionate number of heavy warships and troops around.

Which smuggler can make more money faster, while avoiding capture by sneaking, bluffing, or fighting their way past the central government's patrols?

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Serenity and the Millenium Falcon both have well-deserved reputations as ships held together largely by duct tape, bailing wire, and in Serenity's case, the unstinting affection of her mechanic. In this event, we give both crews equal (low) financial resources and limited prospects for future work. Then we see who can keep flying the longest without having to resort to desperate measures in order to raise the money for essential repairs. Will the Falcon's hyperdrive motivator outlast Serenity's compression coil? Tune in next week to find out!

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Chance has it that both smugglers land on opposite sides of the same backwater planet, where they encounter oddly similar rural settlements threatened by oddly similar local strongmen. True to form, both Solo and Reynolds make only a token demand for payment before agreeing to help the locals dig in and fend off the strongman's goons, in true Magnificent Seven fashion.

Victory goes to the captain who comes out ahead according to a combination of the following standards:
-Which settlement takes less damage in the process of defending itself against the local warlord?
-Which of our smugglers has a stronger secretly-heroic streak and takes less payment, or more efficiently finds an excuse not to get paid?
-Bonus points for any medical or technical support provided to the locals, either directly or in the form of assistance from an organization the smuggler has contacts with.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
Both Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo have been captured and tortured by thoroughly evil crime lords on at least one occasion in their career. In this scenario, both have been taken prisoner by the notorious Adelai the Hutt (:smallwink:) in revenge for an unpaid debt. The arch-gangster has his own fortified mansion in a remote location, guarded by a variety of big ugly aliens, scary tattooed thugs, and/or mysterious heavily armored bounty hunters.

Once again, there are two ways to win:
1)If either Han or Mal manages to escape on their own, whoever escapes first (or holds the leadership role in any escape involving both) wins.
2)The crews of Serenity and the Falcon race to stage a rescue attempt. Whichever team pulls off the operation fastest (or smoothest, if both try it at the same time) wins. For this purpose, in honor of the memorable scenes in Jabba's palace during Return of the Jedi, Lando Calrissian is included on Han's side. However, Luke does not get his full Jedi powers, as outlined in Rule #2: Crew.

==========

Have fun!

Haven

2009-12-11, 02:05 PM

I really like the way you've outlined this; it's a lot more well thought out than most versus threads, and your knowledge and love of both settings really shows. I don't really know, but I just thought you deserved some props for that.

Dienekes

2009-12-11, 02:07 PM

An important question, for about all of them. Did Jayne bring his grenades?

Megaduck

2009-12-11, 02:08 PM

I'm going to go with only the Movies here. The Han Solo adventures take place before the time period you mention but I'm not going to consider them Canon for this discussion.

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
I'm going to give this one as a tie. Chewie is considered big and strong but we see the firefly crew duke it out more often.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
Han, hands down.

Malcom only succeed in one smuggling run the entire show, worse he had a knack for it always going badly for him. Malcom is also poorly respected by the people he works with and really isn't a people person.

At the beginning of A New Hope Han is in the financial hole and he has a chat with Jabba. Compare that conversation with Mal's conversations with Badger. Han has a better reputation and is able to negotiate better with people.

He's the better smuggler.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Both ships break down at the speed of plot. There is no way to determine really which is in better repair. However I'd say the Falcon is tougher.

Compare the amount of damage Serenity takes in the movie with what the Millennium Falcon takes. Serenity is shot down in one hit (Admitadly a powerful one) while the Falcon takes multiple hits and keeps flying.

On a straight ship comparison the round goes to Han. Serenity is a slow obsolete freighter. The Millennium Falcon is a heavily upgraded freighter that takes on military fighters and super weapons.

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Han again.

Han and the Falcon have military grade weaponry and contacts. Malcom and Serenity do not.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
Both of them were captured, both were rescued by their friends. I'm throwing this a tie again.

In the end I'm throwing this to Han Solo, though it's a close choice. Han is better in his chosen profession and he has better contacts. Malcolm is ultimately a loner who really just wants to wander off by himself. This means when push comes to shove he's at a material and logistical disadvantage.

chiasaur11

2009-12-11, 02:17 PM

Hmm. Well written scenario.

For #1 I agree on a tie. Chewie could take Jayne without too much effort, but numerical advantage on Mal's side can compensate.

2? Han, probably. Mal's luck is worse.

3? Mal's side. In a walk. Saffron once said it could fly forever with a decent mechanic, and, well, Kaylee's the best in the verse. We haven't seen Solo running on fumes nearly as much, but, well, no work, no money, and no repairs is pretty much his default.

The others? Gotta think about it.

Dienekes

2009-12-11, 02:26 PM

3? Mal's side. In a walk. Saffron once said it could fly forever with a decent mechanic, and, well, Kaylee's the best in the verse. We haven't seen Solo running on fumes nearly as much, but, well, no work, no money, and no repairs is pretty much his default.

Ehh, wasn't the point of an entire episode that a small nearly insignificant piece broke and nearly killed everyone?

The worst Han ever gets is his hyperdrive, which while you'd think that would be more or less a horrible thing without one, by canon he was able to fly to an inhabited planet without one and didn't seem too worried when it went out (unless it's during a space battle of course)

Haven

2009-12-11, 02:30 PM

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Both ships break down at the speed of plot. There is no way to determine really which is in better repair. However I'd say the Falcon is tougher.

Compare the amount of damage Serenity takes in the movie with what the Millennium Falcon takes. Serenity is shot down in one hit (Admitadly a powerful one) while the Falcon takes multiple hits and keeps flying.

On a straight ship comparison the round goes to Han. Serenity is a slow obsolete freighter. The Millennium Falcon is a heavily upgraded freighter that takes on military fighters and super weapons.

I'm going to assume that this is just a function of the power difference between the two settings. Also, I don't think the Falcon got hit with anything as tough as--shoot, was it an EMP? anyway, it was a superweapon in the context of Firefly, whereas the Falcon mostly got hit with stuff it was expected to take). Though the Falcon is definitely designed much more for fighting in space than Serenity is (she doesn't even have weapons).

However, none of Han's crew is half as good a mechanic as Kaylee.

Keshay

2009-12-11, 03:01 PM

1) Han and Chewie. Sorry, I love Jayne and the warrior woman, but Chewie is way stronger than normal people. I'd give the fight to Chewie alone versus Mal, Jayne and Zoe.

2) Han and Chewie again. They have the better ship. the Falcon is faster, has better defensive and offensive capabilities and can carry more cargo (at least it looks like it should be able to).edit Upon further review, the Serenity is way bigger than the Falcon, and has more cargo capicity, I have to change my vote to Mal and the Serenity.

3) I'll have to give this one to Mal. If both sides are equally well equipped and need to do repairs, the Serenity still has its captain and pilot doing their jobs while the repairs are happening. Han and Chewie need to leave the bridge in order to fix the Falcon.

4) I have to give this one to Han. Last time Mal did this sthick, he got laid, saved some companions and got the girl he slept with killed. Han? He freed the galaxy from an oppressive regime, married a princess and became one of the most important military leaders in the galaxy.

5) I'm going to go with Mal and the serenity crew here. But I'll take it one better, they also rescue Han and deliver him to his friends while thier rescue plan is still in the planning phase. Mal strikes me as having a bit more intestinal fortitude than Han, I don't recall him crying out during his torture session (but I could be mistaken).

I see it going down like this: after 2-3 days of torture, Mal pretends to succumb to his injuries, but has been manipulating his bonds in order to get free. When the torturer comes to check to make sure Mal's dead, he uses the remains of his bonds to strangle the guy, uses his body as a shield and does his best Harry tasker impresonation using the torture implements to kill the guards.

As he's making his way down the hall, he hears Han screaming in agony, and busts him out too. The Duo make thier way through the compound trading barbs about how they're goingot get off the planet once they escape.

Meanwhile Luke, Chewie and Lando have hatched a convoluted plan to imfiltrate the Hutt's organization, Lando has his job interview to be a low-lwevel guard next Wednesday.

Meanwhile Meanwhile, the crew of Serenity have modified the engive in order to fool the detection abilities of the Hutt's strionghold into thinking they are an expected shipment of spice. Jayne and Zoe are hiding in the crates, and once acepted inot the stronghold the emerge from thier hiding place, disable the unwiting guards, and make their way to the detention area. Upon opening the door to the jail, they are met by Mal who quips "What took you so long?"

The escape is made and everyone is safe and sound. Han's a bit put off that his friends didn't come to save him. Naturally the Firefly crew is then inducted into the Rebel Alliance.

Haven

2009-12-11, 03:04 PM

2) Han and Chewie again. They have the better ship. the Falcon is faster, has better defensive and offensive capabilities and can carry more cargo (at least it looks like it should be able to).

Again, I'd say this is more because of the disparity in tech level between settings (well, except for the offensive capabilities part, because Serenity has no weapons, but that might be a setting thing too).

However, your answer to #5? It needs to happen. Someone fund that.

Keshay

2009-12-11, 03:21 PM

Again, I'd say this is more because of the disparity in tech level between settings (well, except for the offensive capabilities part, because Serenity has no weapons, but that might be a setting thing too).

However, your answer to #5? It needs to happen. Someone fund that.

My biggest factor in giving the falcon the edge was the cargo capacity, I'd taken the tech level disparity into account per the proscribed rules of the vs. However upon some further research, it appears that the two ships are not the relative sizes I thought they were, the Serenity should be able to carry a great deal more than the Millenium Falcon. I too will need to give #2 to the Serenity.

Brother Oni

2009-12-11, 03:42 PM

I agree with Keshay - not only is the Serenity bigger than the Falcon, it's also better designed for carrying stuff.

One episode I remember has the Serenity carrying a large number of cattle - somehow I don't see the Falcon being able to pull the same trick.
Serenity also has two short ranged shuttles, which the Falcon doesn't have.

If we take the Ebon Hawk from Knights of the Old Republic to be the same design as the Falcon, then Serenity would win hands down in cargo capacity.

Storm Bringer

2009-12-11, 04:02 PM

size isn't everything.

what matters for a smuggler is being able to sneak to sneak goods past security. we know the falcon is explictly fitted with sensor proof smuggling chambers, which are able to defeat some, but not all of the standard imperail scanners (ref: han having to dump his cargo before a new hope, and the heros hiding form a quick scan of the ship when taken into the death star).

I admit i havn't seen firefly, but i'm not aware of that ship having such areas on it, which would mean that han could take on small, high-value runs, in particular time-sensitive ones (since he has a unusually fast ship).

also, larger ship= higher operating costs in parts, berthing fees, etc. In the star wars universe, ships the size of the falcon are suffciently viable as small-time free traders that they are able to operate on pretty much any route. If he stuck to shifting high-value illegal goods in the shielded compartments and a bulkier 'cover' cargo to show customs, he might slip though the imperial net more often, espcailly if he kept to 'backwater' worlds where the larger firefly wouldn't find it profitable to work.

The firefly, on the other hand, may be able to make more money on legimate bulk cargo, and/or create a few crates that were sensor proof to act as thier own smuggling compartments.

also, while Reynolds may be familar with the Imperials in general, but Han is an ex-imperial officer, and would have a better working knowledge of what they were looking for, how to put them off the scent, etc.

hamishspence

2009-12-11, 04:16 PM

Mikeavelli

2009-12-11, 04:28 PM

the Firefly does have hidden compartments on it, it came into play once when they were being boarded and inspected by an Alliance ship, and they were quickly trying to shove all their contraband into the hidden areas.

Contraband-scanning technology is far less advanced in the Firefly 'verse, so the smuggling technology is similarly primative. Melding the two together would give the Firefly contraband-protection on par with the Millenium falcon, and more overall carrying capacity to boot.

Storm Bringer

2009-12-11, 04:29 PM

Hidden compartments on the Falcon are pretty small.

That said, smuggled goods don't have to be in any of the cargo holds- I remember a very funny short story in the Star Wars Tales collections in which Han is stopped by the imperials on three separate occasions with no result.

Then the officer catches on:

"We didn't inspect the same ship three times- we inspected three different ships! He was smuggling spaceships!"

Han and Chewie get away in the nick of time.

true, but so's the main cargo areas of the falcon. Still, not only is the falcon a economically viable smuggler, enough traders use ships of that size in legimate commarce for the smugglers to hide amongst imples quite a lot of small, high value cargos kicking about.

to be honest, the two ships are trading at completly different levels in terms of scale.

warty goblin

2009-12-11, 04:30 PM

Dervag

2009-12-11, 05:36 PM

Comments on the rules and scenarios:
Eventually I will post my opinions, but the time is not yet...

On Rule #1:

Again, I'd say this is more because of the disparity in tech level between settings (well, except for the offensive capabilities part, because Serenity has no weapons, but that might be a setting thing too).This ties into the way I wrote the "Technical parity" rule. The Falcon is the fastest ship in its setting, or one of the fastest. Serenity is not the fastest ship in its setting by any means. The Falcon is a heavily armed, illegally modified gunship designed to tangle with enemy fighters in flight strength and come out on top... disguised as a beat up old freighter. Serenity really is a beat up old freighter.

So when you give the two settings technical parity, Serenity is still the slower, less well protected ship. In some respects they make up for it on crew quality in my opinion; in others, not.

On Event #3:
It was not my intention to make this a direct ship comparison. The Falcon is definitely faster and better armed than Serenity, hands down; the question is whether Han and Chewie are better at maintaining a ship on a shoestring budget than Malcolm and his crew.

An important question, for about all of them. Did Jayne bring his grenades?No grenades! Well, unless Jayne manages to sneak them past the captain.

==========

Replies to specific votes:

I'm going to go with only the Movies here. The Han Solo adventures take place before the time period you mention but I'm not going to consider them Canon for this discussion.Since I don't know the first thing about them, that's probably just as well.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Both ships break down at the speed of plot. There is no way to determine really which is in better repair. However I'd say the Falcon is tougher.To me, the reason this is questionable is that it's largely about crew skill, motivation, and making do on very small amounts of money. That's the space Serenity lives in; it's strongly implied that Kaylee works minor miracles on a regular basis to keep them flying. The Falcon is fundamentally more durable, but the crew of Serenity are good at keeping the old girl limping along.

5) I'm going to go with Mal and the serenity crew here. But I'll take it one better, they also rescue Han and deliver him to his friends while thier rescue plan is still in the planning phase. Mal strikes me as having a bit more intestinal fortitude than Han, I don't recall him crying out during his torture session (but I could be mistaken).

I see it going down like this:
after 2-3 days of torture, Mal pretends to succumb to his injuries, but has been manipulating his bonds in order to get free. When the torturer comes to check to make sure Mal's dead, he uses the remains of his bonds to strangle the guy, uses his body as a shield and does his best Harry tasker impresonation using the torture implements to kill the guards.

As he's making his way down the hall, he hears Han screaming in agony, and busts him out too. The Duo make thier way through the compound trading barbs about how they're goingot get off the planet once they escape.

Meanwhile Luke, Chewie and Lando have hatched a convoluted plan to imfiltrate the Hutt's organization, Lando has his job interview to be a low-lwevel guard next Wednesday.

Meanwhile Meanwhile, the crew of Serenity have modified the engive in order to fool the detection abilities of the Hutt's strionghold into thinking they are an expected shipment of spice. Jayne and Zoe are hiding in the crates, and once acepted inot the stronghold the emerge from thier hiding place, disable the unwiting guards, and make their way to the detention area. Upon opening the door to the jail, they are met by Mal who quips "What took you so long?"

The escape is made and everyone is safe and sound. Han's a bit put off that his friends didn't come to save him. Naturally the Firefly crew is then inducted into the Rebel Alliance....
:smallconfused:...
:smalleek:...
:smallbiggrin:...
:smallcool:...
Holycowthat'sawesome. Best. Crossover plot. Ever.

==========

Minor comments:

I really like the way you've outlined this; it's a lot more well thought out than most versus threads, and your knowledge and love of both settings really shows. I don't really know, but I just thought you deserved some props for that.I thank you.

Solaris

2009-12-11, 05:37 PM

... This just became the foundation of my next Star Wars campaign.

Sholos

2009-12-11, 06:03 PM

I'd give this to Serenity, no question. Both Zoe and Mal are (very) hardened combat veterans, well versed in both beating the crap out of people, and getting themselves out of sticky situations. And then there's Jayne...
I have to disagree here. Chewie is out and out the strongest one here, and he'd be perfectly capable of walking all over the Firefly crew.

Haven

2009-12-11, 06:14 PM

I have to disagree here. Chewie is out and out the strongest one here, and he'd be perfectly capable of walking all over the Firefly crew.

They could win with the escape condition, though. I get the sense that Chewie, being "proud warrior race guy", would get too caught up in the fighting. If it's a bar fight, there are probably lots of drunk guys who have had enough to think testing their strength against a wookie is a good idea. So while Chewie's drawing all that, the Firefly crew slips out easily.

Rogue 7

2009-12-11, 06:47 PM

... This just became the foundation of my next Star Wars campaign.

...can I play?

paddyfool

2009-12-11, 07:14 PM

Event 1:

They could win with the escape condition, though. I get the sense that Chewie, being "proud warrior race guy", would get too caught up in the fighting. If it's a bar fight, there are probably lots of drunk guys who have had enough to think testing their strength against a wookie is a good idea. So while Chewie's drawing all that, the Firefly crew slips out easily.

Meh. If Han wants to get out, Chewie will follow. And typically it should be easier for two to disentangle themselves than three - overall, superstrength wins the bar-room brawl for Chewie.

2: Han. Mal has the bigger cargo hold, yes, but Han has the faster, sneakier ship and is generally better at smuggling. If it was a legit or mostly-legit, job, now, Mal would likely win the contract etc., but that wasn't the contest specified.

3: Mal. Simply because of Kaylee. Without her, he wouldn't still have a ship to begin with, but we'll leave that aside for now.

4: I want to give this to Mal, but on the balance of the evidence presented, I'll grudgingly give it to Han.

5: What Keshay said.

Hadessniper

2009-12-11, 09:01 PM

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
This is the simplest one. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne wind up embroiled in a large-scale fight in a cantina; Han and Chewie are on the opposite side of the fight.

Victory can take one of two forms:
1)One team disables all members of the other team in direct combat, or
2)Both teams compete to disentangle themselves from the fight and escape without getting shot full of holes or having any particularly important limbs torn off.

I wouldn't count Mal and his crew out of this. Mal and Zoe are skilled in using subterfuge and superior fighting skills to take down stronger opponents, Jayne isn't but that's only because there really isn't any one considerably stronger then him in his universe. If they lived in the star wars universe I couldn't see Jayne not learning how to deal with stronger foes.

I don't know a lot about the SWU but it seems to me that Chewbacca and wookies in general aren't technically skilled fighters, they are mostly frenzied berserkers relying on their superior strength and intimidation. So I think a Jayne from star wars just might be able to take Chewbacca.

Han would be much more likely to bring deadly force to a random barroom brawl. That gives him an edge over Mal who would only kill someone if he thought they really deserved it. So depending on the situation I would give the brawl to Han but not by much.

On just getting the hell out of dodge I have to give it to Mal and his crew, getting the hell out is about 90% of what they do.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
Both Han and Mal have settled onto a relatively profitable trade route that involves sneaking valuable biological materials from their planet of origin to a trading hub in a relatively populous sector. The catch? The Navy is holding fleet exercises in the area, so there are a disproportionate number of heavy warships and troops around.

Which smuggler can make more money faster, while avoiding capture by sneaking, bluffing, or fighting their way past the central government's patrols?

Han takes the cake for faster and in a fight. Bluffing and sneaking go to Mal. Speaking strictly from the movies Han was kind of a bad liar. It was always very obvious when he was spinning a tale. Where as Mal could cheat a cheater, bluff a bluffer, and sell snow to a Eskimo.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Serenity and the Millenium Falcon both have well-deserved reputations as ships held together largely by duct tape, bailing wire, and in Serenity's case, the unstinting affection of her mechanic. In this event, we give both crews equal (low) financial resources and limited prospects for future work. Then we see who can keep flying the longest without having to resort to desperate measures in order to raise the money for essential repairs. Will the Falcon's hyperdrive motivator outlast Serenity's compression coil? Tune in next week to find out!

Kaylee is the best mechanic in the 'verse. 'nuff said.

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Chance has it that both smugglers land on opposite sides of the same backwater planet, where they encounter oddly similar rural settlements threatened by oddly similar local strongmen. True to form, both Solo and Reynolds make only a token demand for payment before agreeing to help the locals dig in and fend off the strongman's goons, in true Magnificent Seven fashion.

Victory goes to the captain who comes out ahead according to a combination of the following standards:
-Which settlement takes less damage in the process of defending itself against the local warlord?
-Which of our smugglers has a stronger secretly-heroic streak and takes less payment, or more efficiently finds an excuse not to get paid?
-Bonus points for any medical or technical support provided to the locals, either directly or in the form of assistance from an organization the smuggler has contacts with.

I seem to remember Han giving a lot of lip and very nearly leaving before coming around to help the rebels. Whereas Mal is always a sucker for a lost cause. Their defenses would be about the same but in the end Mal takes much less to get recruited for the fight and will end up taking no more then he thinks the locals can give. Han strikes me as more of the greedy type.

Keshay has the definitive answer to 5.

On the surface they are very similar characters, both being devilish rogues with a heart of gold, but Mal at his core is a broken solder desperately trying to refight the righteous war he didn't win. Han started as the rogue and evolved into what Mal wishes he was, a victorious commander of a righteous war.

I think Mal is definitely the better character with more depth and a more compelling journey. Also no offense to Harrison Ford but Nathan Fillion is simply a better actor.

Haven

2009-12-11, 09:12 PM

I seem to remember Han giving a lot of lip and very nearly leaving before coming around to help the rebels. Whereas Mal is always a sucker for a lost cause. Their defenses would be about the same but in the end Mal takes much less to get recruited for the fight and will end up taking no more then he thinks the locals can give. Han strikes me as more of the greedy type.

I want to say this, but then I remembered that Han could just buzz the enemy with his ship's guns and call it a day.

...But then typing that, I remembered that in the relevant episode, Mal wanted to do something like that but wasn't able to. So if the scenario is, again, one where that can't happen, Mal FTW.

Thufir

2009-12-11, 09:37 PM

Also no offense to Harrison Ford but Nathan Fillion is simply a better actor.

Although, IIRC, Harrison Ford was one of Nathan Fillion's big inspirations as an actor...

Sholos

2009-12-11, 10:02 PM

I wouldn't count Mal and his crew out of this. Mal and Zoe are skilled in using subterfuge and superior fighting skills to take down stronger opponents, Jayne isn't but that's only because there really isn't any one considerably stronger then him in his universe. If they lived in the star wars universe I couldn't see Jayne not learning how to deal with stronger foes.
I believe you're falling into the "skill can make up for any difference in strength and size!" trap. Skill can make a difference, but when you're up against someone like Chewie, you'd have to be really, really, really skilled to make up the simply massive advantages Chewie's strength and reach give him.

Also, I don't think we should be changing the base characters. Yes, Jayne has an interest in fighting, but he's never shown to be particularly interested in technique or anything else beyond brute force. So I don't think it's fair to say that he'd necessarily learn "how to deal with stronger foes".

I don't know a lot about the SWU but it seems to me that Chewbacca and wookies in general aren't technically skilled fighters, they are mostly frenzied berserkers relying on their superior strength and intimidation. So I think a Jayne from star wars just might be able to take Chewbacca.
Quick lesson here is that wookies are not necessarily frenzied berserkers. Yes, they get angry. Yes, they rely on they're strength and size. Yes, they even rely on the fact that generally no one is crazy/stupid enough to pick a fight with them. That doesn't mean they don't know how to best use that strength. Wookies are not barbaric savages.

Han would be much more likely to bring deadly force to a random barroom brawl. That gives him an edge over Mal who would only kill someone if he thought they really deserved it. So depending on the situation I would give the brawl to Han but not by much.
I'll let you off because of your self-admitted ignorance of wookies. Suffice it to say that the only chance Mal's crew has is to simply get out of the bar.

On just getting the hell out of dodge I have to give it to Mal and his crew, getting the hell out is about 90% of what they do.
If I remember correctly, they get run out of the one barroom fight they get involved in, and depend on Wash to save their lives.

Haven

2009-12-11, 10:07 PM

If I remember correctly, they get run out of the one barroom fight they get involved in, and depend on Wash to save their lives.

That was the time they took on an entire bar, and they were doing pretty well considering (I think it was only Mal who got thrown out; Jayne ran out the door tackling two guys as I recall). In "Shindig" they did alright for themselves. Likewise in the Big Damn Movie, not even counting the parts where River was flipping out. ...Man I need to rewatch this series.

Hadessniper

2009-12-11, 10:12 PM

If I remember correctly, they get run out of the one barroom fight they get involved in, and depend on Wash to save their lives.

Also a large part of the reason they needed rescuing is their reluctance to kill people in a friendly good natured brawl.

The_JJ

2009-12-11, 10:27 PM

Event #1: Barroom Brawl

Hard to say. Mal and co. have numbers and good skills. On the other hand... Chewy. Han by a whisker.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling

Han. Mal has poor luck and a stronger sense of stubborn honor. Han, it seems, operates in a slightly more hostile environment (Mal might bitch but he mostly operates by moving out of the Alliances sphere. Han runs under the Empire's nose.) Here I'll cite Serenity, Mal's been marginalized and driven on the run by the Alliance. Han's in the hole because of one lost shipment. He also take landing on the Death Star pretty well.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance

Kaylee wins. The Falcon was sabotaged. (Wasn't it? I seem to remember this... but I'm not certain.) Serenity was always on the edge, but kept moving.

Event #4: Knight Errantry

I wanna say Mal, on the bonus points. His sense of honor was always much smaller scale, Han worked for Jabba running narcotics for a long time, and let's be frank, had Leia's hotness pulling him over to the good side. Still a good guy... but it's buried deeper.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord

Harded. Han's escape was far more... epic.

But he had Luke-as-full-on-Jedi on his side. And he played a lot less of an... active role in it, so to speak. Didn't last out a torture, didn't manage to escape (ish) and fight the bad guy on his own. (Course, he was frozen sooo... and he got in a good line right before that. And had a nice run trying to get away.) Didn't get Simon sticking his neck out for him or Shepard getting fuzzy on kneecaps.

Hard hard hard, but I'll swing for Mal.

Philistine

2009-12-11, 10:39 PM

What is this? A reasonable, intelligent, and well-thought-out Versus thread? Well, I be done seen about everything now. :smallamused:

I do have one quibble. I disagree with the clarifying statement that "the Falcon is a heavily armed, illegally modified gunship designed to tangle with enemy fighters in flight strength and come out on top... disguised as a beat up old freighter." The Falcon actually is a beat-up old freighter, which has "simply" been retrofitted with a new hyperdrive and additional armament. These modifications to an over-aged civilian freighter seem to be the reason the ship is such a notorious hangar queen (particularly the very finicky new hyperdrive which is the Falcon's primary claim to fame). Even with all this, the Falcon is a dedicated smuggler, not a space superiority craft: her intended usage is to keep hostile fighters at arms' length long enough to execute a jump to lightspeed. The only time we see her intentionally enter combat in the OT is at Endor, which was very much a kitchen sink situation for the Rebels. But anyway.

=======================

Situation 1: Bar-Room Brawl
I have to agree with Keshay on this point: Chewbacca is large and strong enough to send an armored man flying with a backhanded sweep of his arm, and by himself he would probably be more than the Serenity crew could handle unless and until somebody started shooting. As for escaping the situation, he should be highly effective at clearing a path toward the door for himself and Han.

If and when guns come into play, however, Chewie is the biggest target in the room - and here the numbers will weigh in favor of the Serenity crew. On the other other hand, though, Mal and friends seem less the types to turn a mostly-friendly fistfight into a shootout, even if they're getting the short end of the stick.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
The setup stipulates that both the Falcon and the Serenity are able to make a profit running these goods, so we can leave aside the question of price vs. bulk. I would give the edge here to Han Solo: the Falcon has less cargo capacity, but can make either four or six runs for each one that Serenity completes (depending on whether Serenity is fitted with a Class 2 or Class 3 hyperdrive). And if Imperial entanglements should arise, the Falcon is a smaller, harder, and more elusive target. Malcolm Reynolds's one ace in the hole is Book, who may be able to pull rank on an officious imperial inspector, if he's so inclined.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Serenity is a beat-up old freighter. The Millenium Falcon is a beat-up old freighter which has been retrofitted with a number of high-performance - and high maintenance - parts, some of which are of dubious legality (and others of which are outright illegal) and are difficult to find spares for. Serenity is almost certainly the less demanding of the two to keep running, and also has the advantage of a larger crew, including a dedicated mechanic. The advantage here clearly lies with Captain Reynolds and company. Captain Solo's one edge, should he choose to use it, is that either R2-D2 or C-3PO can interface directly with his ship's computers, greatly aiding in diagnosing mechanical problems (this still doesn't guarantee that they'll have the parts on hand to fix whatever problem they find, of course).

Event #4: Knight Errantry
This is a tough call. The Falcon is obviously more capable of providing direct support for troops on the ground, as armaments capable of destroying starfighters should be devastating if turned against light vehicles or men in the open; but Han's contribution to the fight is likely to begin and end with the ship itself, which will need at least two (and preferably three or even four) crew to fly and fight - drawn from a pool which was smaller than his rival's to begin with, let's recall. Han also seems to be the more mercenary of our two competitors, less likely to jump in if little or no payment is on the table. Furthermore, while his contacts with the Rebellion give him access to supplies, medical care, and so forth, it is questionable how much would be (or could be) made available in a situation such as the one described.

Serenity lacks the Falcon's potential to turn the entire course of the battle around; on the other hand, her crew includes four seasoned fighters, a trauma surgeon, a very gifted mechanic, and both a Shepherd and a Companion to help bolster morale. They'll be able to stiffen the local forces, prepare defensive positions, and make the most of whatever supplies are on hand (from Serenity or from local stocks). IMO, Malcolm Reynolds is also far more likely to do the job for free just because "it's the right thing to do." All told, I think I have to give this one to Mal on points.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
I think this one is going to end up as another narrow victory for Team Reynolds, whose rescue plan seems likely to go off sooner and smoother. The individual members of Team Solo are arguably more capable, with the only real dead weight being C-3PO; but given the ridiculously elaborate plan they came up with to break Han Solo out of Jabba's palace, I can't bring myself to give them full marks for planning, organization, or efficiency. I'm not sure there's enough difference to choose between the Captains themselves.

=======================

Overall, a close matchup. I'd say Han Solo wins the first two events in walkovers, and that he is the better smuggler of the two (mostly thanks to the virtues of the Millennium Falcon). I believe that Malcolm Reynolds would win the last three events, though only one would be as lopsided as the two he lost, and that he is the more heroic of the pair (much of which is due to the effectiveness, individually and collectively, of the team he has gathered around himself).

Haven

2009-12-11, 10:46 PM

If and when guns come into play, however, Chewie is the biggest target in the room - and here the numbers will weigh in favor of the Serenity crew. On the other other hand, though, Mal and friends seem less the types to turn a mostly-friendly fistfight into a shootout, even if they're getting the short end of the stick.

I just realized that, depending on how exactly the setting overlay works, the crew is likely to assume Chewie is some sort of Reaver (specifically the sort that really needs a shave).

Also, Kaylee would meet R2D2, start squeeing and never stop. (Or to mix a different flavor of nerd into this thread: "Hau~! Omochikaeri!")

Finn Solomon

2009-12-11, 11:51 PM

Ah, a well thought out and balanced versus thread. Kudos to Dervag for writing it out so articulately, for two of my most beloved characters in sci-fidom. I'd also like to say I find the idea of Jedi River absolutely delicious.

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
This is the simplest one. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne wind up embroiled in a large-scale fight in a cantina; Han and Chewie are on the opposite side of the fight.

Victory can take one of two forms:
1)One team disables all members of the other team in direct combat, or
2)Both teams compete to disentangle themselves from the fight and escape without getting shot full of holes or having any particularly important limbs torn off.

This really comes down to whether Mal, Zoe and Jayne are willing to use lethal force against Chewie. Chewie wins in a hand-to-hand fight no questions asked, but his ranged weapon of choice is a modified crossbow and it's slower to whip out than a handgun. Somehow I don't think Serenity's crew would resort to killing in a bar room brawl, so Chewie gives Jayne Cobb the beating of his life and the Captain and his first mate has to drag his brain-dead self out of there. Han and Chewie win.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
Both Han and Mal have settled onto a relatively profitable trade route that involves sneaking valuable biological materials from their planet of origin to a trading hub in a relatively populous sector. The catch? The Navy is holding fleet exercises in the area, so there are a disproportionate number of heavy warships and troops around.

Which smuggler can make more money faster, while avoiding capture by sneaking, bluffing, or fighting their way past the central government's patrols?

What's Mal's number one rule in life? "It never goes smooth. How come it never goes smooth?!" The bigger and more profitable the job, the less likely Mal is able to succeed at it. Mal screws up a lot when determined opposition backed by heavy firepower is out to get him (The Alliance govt official in that episode with Tracy). Only Book saved him that time by pointing out something he missed. Han by comparison is one of the best smugglers in the galaxy, good enough by reputation to be hired by one of the biggest crime lords in the galaxy. His ship's faster, hardier in a fight, and he survives being taken onboard the Death Star, as well as being tracked by a Star Destroyer. Han wins hands down.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Serenity and the Millenium Falcon both have well-deserved reputations as ships held together largely by duct tape, bailing wire, and in Serenity's case, the unstinting affection of her mechanic. In this event, we give both crews equal (low) financial resources and limited prospects for future work. Then we see who can keep flying the longest without having to resort to desperate measures in order to raise the money for essential repairs. Will the Falcon's hyperdrive motivator outlast Serenity's compression coil? Tune in next week to find out!

Serenity may be old, but she's built to last. They've survived for a few decades by virtue of their design. Plus they have Kaylee, who has an almost magical ability with mechanical maintenance. The conditions you give for both teams are conditions Mal's used to on a daily basis. On the other hand, Han and Chewie aren't really used to the ship breaking down. It takes a hell of a long time for them to fix their hyperdrive, even with a droid that speaks fluent hyperdrive.

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Chance has it that both smugglers land on opposite sides of the same backwater planet, where they encounter oddly similar rural settlements threatened by oddly similar local strongmen. True to form, both Solo and Reynolds make only a token demand for payment before agreeing to help the locals dig in and fend off the strongman's goons, in true Magnificent Seven fashion.

Victory goes to the captain who comes out ahead according to a combination of the following standards:
-Which settlement takes less damage in the process of defending itself against the local warlord?
-Which of our smugglers has a stronger secretly-heroic streak and takes less payment, or more efficiently finds an excuse not to get paid?
-Bonus points for any medical or technical support provided to the locals, either directly or in the form of assistance from an organization the smuggler has contacts with.

Mal Reynolds knows a thing or two about defending settlements from evil-doers. See Heart of Gold and the first part of Our Mrs Reynolds. It takes a lot for Han to eventually help out the Rebel Alliance, and even then he was motivated by love, so Mal wins in the heroic streak stakes.

However, I think Han wins in ensuring the settlement takes less damage, simply because he has an armed ship and a Jedi Knight on hand. Mal and Zoe and Jayne are good shots, but I suspect Luke Skywalker could take down a gang of bandits far more efficiently on his own. I know Luke hasn't had any serious training, but he managed to go a few rounds with Darth frickin' Vader unassisted. Also, the Falcon has much better weapons than Serenity. I can see Han blasting most of the gang apart even before they've reached the village, while Luke and Leia mop up the rest.

In the end I'll have to give this one to Mal on bonus points, by virtue of his crew. He has a trauma surgeon to patch up wounds, a genius mechanic to shore up any defenses, an ace pilot to keep swooping in supplies, and a Shepherd and a Companion for morale, as Philistine has pointed out. Since Mal will likely refuse payment (he did so in Heart of Gold), the locals would be far more grateful to Serenity's crew than the Falcon's.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
Both Malcolm Reynolds and Han Solo have been captured and tortured by thoroughly evil crime lords on at least one occasion in their career. In this scenario, both have been taken prisoner by the notorious Adelai the Hutt (:smallwink:) in revenge for an unpaid debt. The arch-gangster has his own fortified mansion in a remote location, guarded by a variety of big ugly aliens, scary tattooed thugs, and/or mysterious heavily armored bounty hunters.

Once again, there are two ways to win:
1)If either Han or Mal manages to escape on their own, whoever escapes first (or holds the leadership role in any escape involving both) wins.
2)The crews of Serenity and the Falcon race to stage a rescue attempt. Whichever team pulls off the operation fastest (or smoothest, if both try it at the same time) wins. For this purpose, in honor of the memorable scenes in Jabba's palace during Return of the Jedi, Lando Calrissian is included on Han's side. However, Luke does not get his full Jedi powers, as outlined in Rule #2: Crew.

Oh I can just see it now...

Adelai the Hutt: OH-HO-HO-HO-HO-HO! You thought that you could escape Adelai's clutches, no? You will find out that is not so solid!

He has to wear glasses.

A big stumbling block for me is that we don't know how much pain Han Solo can take. We've seen Mal resist to the brink of death, and then past it, but Han was merely frozen and blinded. We don't know how well he'd stand up to torture. As seen in War Stories, Mal managed to break out of captivity by himself. Although his crew were inches away, that's still a huge point in his favor. I wouldn't put it past Mal to do it again, and rescue Han as well.

Since the entire rescue operation in ROTJ hinges on Luke's Jedi powers, I don't think the Falcon's crew are going to succeed here if Luke is depowered. Serenity on the other hand have had experience with busting their Captain out of tight places with what little they have on hand. They might not have the first Mule to light on fire, but they've got a second, hovering, bigger one to lead the charge in if they're so inclined. Zoe leads Jayne, Wash and Book with military discipline into the heart of the compound, the guards don't stand a chance.

Dervag

2009-12-12, 12:50 AM

What is this? A reasonable, intelligent, and well-thought-out Versus thread? Well, I be done seen about everything now. :smallamused:I thank you.

I do have one quibble. I disagree with the clarifying statement that "the Falcon is a heavily armed, illegally modified gunship designed to tangle with enemy fighters in flight strength and come out on top... disguised as a beat up old freighter." The Falcon actually is a beat-up old freighter, which has "simply" been retrofitted with a new hyperdrive and additional armament.It may look like a beat up old freighter, and it may demand maintenance like a beat up old freighter, but it doesn't perform like a beat up old freighter. Beat up old freighters shouldn't be able to outfly or outfight enemy fighter squadrons; that's what the fighters are designed to chase down. Fighters that can't even intercept a beat up old freighter would be completely useless.

The retrofittings on the Falcon are so extensive that they change the entire nature of the ship; they're certainly more impressive than you'd see on almost any other civilian vessel of comparable tonnage.
______

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
I think this one is going to end up as another narrow victory for Team Reynolds, whose rescue plan seems likely to go off sooner and smoother. The individual members of Team Solo are arguably more capable, with the only real dead weight being C-3PO; but given the ridiculously elaborate plan they came up with to break Han Solo out of Jabba's palace, I can't bring myself to give them full marks for planning, organization, or efficiency.In their defense, Jabba had them all outgunned; even a Jedi knight couldn't just barge into his palace and expect to barge back out again in a reasonable number of pieces. They really needed to infiltrate the palace in order to get Han out at all.

I was picturing "Adelai the Hutt" as being somewhat less powerful and well fortified, to the point where a frontal assault by a small group could plausibly succeed, although it's not necessarily the best plan.
______

I just realized that, depending on how exactly the setting overlay works, the crew is likely to assume Chewie is some sort of Reaver (specifically the sort that really needs a shave).We're essentially using the Star Wars galaxy, frankly; it's the best way to grant the Serenity crew technological parity. And in Star Wars there are many species of aliens; Reavers may exist, and may even be the result of an "Alliancimperial" chemical warfare experiment, but Chewie won't be mistaken for one, because he's a member of a well-known nonhuman species.

Also, Kaylee would meet R2D2, start squeeing and never stop.Probable. I request a translation of the Japanese, though. It is Japanese, right?
_______

Ah, a well thought out and balanced versus thread. Kudos to Dervag for writing it out so articulately, for two of my most beloved characters in sci-fidom.I'm just surprised no one seems to have thought of it before...

I'd also like to say I find the idea of Jedi River absolutely delicious.Her abilities are actually a pretty close matchup to Force sensitivity: she's got preternatural situational awareness, preternatural competence at a wide variety of tasks, and extreme sensitivity to what can only be termed emotional "auras." Also some degree of mind reading, it seems. She fits very neatly into Star Wars as some sort of Imperial project to create a Dark Side Force-using agent, an assassin to the Imperial Hands' infiltrators.
_______

Serenity may be old, but she's built to last. They've survived for a few decades by virtue of their design. Plus they have Kaylee, who has an almost magical ability with mechanical maintenance. The conditions you give for both teams are conditions Mal's used to on a daily basis. On the other hand, Han and Chewie aren't really used to the ship breaking down. It takes a hell of a long time for them to fix their hyperdrive, even with a droid that speaks fluent hyperdrive.There's evidence that the YT-1300 series the Falcon is based on is an old, built-to-last design too; they're seen in service over a span of decades and might well be one of the closer Star Wars equivalent to the Firefly-class.

However, I think Han wins in ensuring the settlement takes less damage, simply because he has an armed ship and a Jedi Knight on hand. Mal and Zoe and Jayne are good shots, but I suspect Luke Skywalker could take down a gang of bandits far more efficiently on his own. I know Luke hasn't had any serious training, but he managed to go a few rounds with Darth frickin' Vader unassisted. Also, the Falcon has much better weapons than Serenity. I can see Han blasting most of the gang apart even before they've reached the village, while Luke and Leia mop up the rest.This is Luke before the Battle of Hoth, before he meets Yoda, remember? Luke could barely muster enough Force skill to pull his lightsaber out of a snowbank at Hoth, and he used the thing more as a glorified cutting torch than a weapon. There was a reason he was still carrying a blaster during that period; he needed it.

Luke's Force abilities will be helpful if they are applied, but he's not a one-man-army like he becomes in Return of the Jedi.

As for the Falcon's guns destroying the bandits, one concern occurs to me: the Falcon's usefulness in that role is going to depend heavily on terrain. If the Falcon had replaced Serenity in Heart of Gold, it would have been a very short battle, because the bad guys were riding in over open terrain. But in forested or rocky terrain, that might not work out so well.

Oh I can just see it now...
Adelai the Hutt: OH-HO-HO-HO-HO-HO! You thought that you could escape Adelai's clutches, no? You will find out that is not so solid!
He has to wear glasses.Glasses on a Hutt?... OK.

Solaris

2009-12-12, 03:58 AM

...can I play?

Yes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7485458#post7485458). Yes you can.

Thrawn183

2009-12-12, 09:14 AM

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
1) I have to give this one to Han and Chewie. Mostly to Chewie. Fluff wise, people never stop talking about how dangerous an unarmed wookie is. We don't actually see this from Chewie very frequently (if at all) but I think he'd come slightly out on top.
2) I give to Mal. Mal has a lot of experience getting out of tight situations intact and with everyone alive. When Han gets into trouble the outcome is generally either everyone getting shot, or Han doesn't come out on top.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
I give this to Mal. At this point, Han's reputation has been sullied. Crime lords know that he ditches shipments and the smugglers he would count as friends don't trust him because he's set them up with deals with the rebels who stole everything.

Also, with the Serenity being larger, I feel like Mal could easily carry legit cargo and smuggle what he can safely while Han would be forced to take much larger risks for the same amount of profit.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Again I have to give this to Mal. I actually think that R2 and Hailey about cancel each other out, but Han has never made the biggest changes to the Falcon himself. He's always farmed that out to a pro. I also feel like the Falcon is more modified from its original format, which probably makes it more difficult to find parts to repair it.

Event #4: Knight Errantry
A tie I think except for Mal happens to have a surgeon on his team to provide trauma care.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
1) Mal definitely wins this one. Leia is the one with Mal-like abilities to resist torture, not Han. Once you start torturing Han, he needs help to escape.

2)As far as support from the crews go, Luke is an up and coming fighter pilot, while Leia is tough but inexperienced in combat. Mal's crew is composed of hardened front line soldiers and Merc's. Also, even with later experience, Han's crew flubbed his rescue while Mal's handled the situation professionally.

Brother Oni

2009-12-12, 09:23 AM

Probable. I request a translation of the Japanese, though. It is Japanese, right?

Yup. Something along the lines of "Squeee! I want to take it home!"

Used in context (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iv9eqniuvMg).

H. Zee

2009-12-12, 10:20 AM

Serenity lacks the Falcon's potential to turn the entire course of the battle around; on the other hand, her crew includes four seasoned fighters, a trauma surgeon, a very gifted mechanic, and both a Shepherd and a Companion to help bolster morale. They'll be able to stiffen the local forces...

:smallamused:

Sholos

2009-12-12, 10:38 AM

warty goblin

2009-12-12, 11:13 AM

I think something that needs to be pointed out on the Rescue Mission scenario is that Adelai had far weaker defenses than Jabba. There was no possible way to successfully assault Jabba's palace directly, and so a subtler plan was necessary.

I'm not totally sure of that. Jabba might have had a better gate, but his personal security basically consisted of large ugly dudes armed with axes. Adelai had men with automatic weapons and possibly body armor, and that's even assuming you could dock. Wash had to coast Serenity in ballistically to avoid detection, which was apparently quite hard.

Dervag

2009-12-12, 01:01 PM

I think something that needs to be pointed out on the Rescue Mission scenario is that Adelai had far weaker defenses than Jabba. There was no possible way to successfully assault Jabba's palace directly, and so a subtler plan was necessary.Well... what I was figuring on was weaker, but not enormously weaker. Weak enough that a small group of very competent commando-types could storm the place, grab someone, and storm back out, assuming a good enough plan. But not so weak that this is necessarily the best way to approach them; infiltration might honestly be a better plan.

I'm trying to give both teams' natural predilection a chance to work- it's conceivable that if the crew of Serenity attempts a frontal assault in this scenario without doing anything clever, they're all going to die.

I'm not totally sure of that. Jabba might have had a better gate, but his personal security basically consisted of large ugly dudes armed with axes. Adelai had men with automatic weapons and possibly body armor, and that's even assuming you could dock. Wash had to coast Serenity in ballistically to avoid detection, which was apparently quite hard.It's pretty strongly implied that Jabba had other defenses in place; otherwise he would have been helpless against any well armed gang that wanted to try holding him hostage. It's not as if he's too poor to buy a load of blasters, or men to use them.

Now, the guys at the gate, in a situation where Jabba had no immediate reason to expect attack, were large ugly dudes with axes. But that may not prove much. One of the great things about Jabba's palace thematically was the sheer diversity of the place; you had many different species and many different aesthetics all jumbled together. That didn't make it a nice place, but it made it a good way to represent the kind of "I collect the scum of the universe and make it mine" vibe Jabba was supposed to radiate.

Having some large ugly dudes with axes on hand is just part of that.

Dienekes

2009-12-12, 01:06 PM

I'm not totally sure of that. Jabba might have had a better gate, but his personal security basically consisted of large ugly dudes armed with axes. Adelai had men with automatic weapons and possibly body armor, and that's even assuming you could dock. Wash had to coast Serenity in ballistically to avoid detection, which was apparently quite hard.

To be fair, he also had a lot of gunned folk as well, randomly placed turrets, and I believe that the gamorreans were highly blaster proof all of which he kept around him and his prisons in huge groups.

Adelei had some troops with guns of course that would charge nicely at the heroes in groups of 3, no personal guard to speak of except for 1 or 2 guys who I believe also only used a knife (the first one did for sure)

BRC

2009-12-12, 01:18 PM

To be fair, he also had a lot of gunned folk as well, randomly placed turrets, and I believe that the gamorreans were highly blaster proof which he kept around him and his prisons in huge groups.

Adelei had some troops with guns of course that would charge nicely at the heroes in groups of 3, no personal guard to speak of except for 1 or 2 guys who I believe also only used a knife (the first one did for sure)
Mind you, Adelei was in a Space Station, so he needed fewer guards. To get onboard you would require his permission. The manuever Wash did, ballisticly launching the ship in with minimum power and hitting the dock exactly right is like throwing a grain of rice from the top of a building and landing in the coffee cup of a guy standing eight blocks away on the roof of an office building. Technically possible, but so difficult it's almost unthinkable.

Anybody with a powerful enough ship to get up close and breach the Space Station would be so far above his level he'd be screwed no matter what.

Jabba on the other hand used a ground-based facility, where one guy with a blaster could conceivably sneak in and kill him, so he took on a much larger staff to prevent that happening.
To put it another way, Adeli's defense was that it was near impossible to get to him without his knowledge. Jabbas was that he had lots of dude with guns.

Dienekes

2009-12-12, 01:32 PM

Mind you, Adelei was in a Space Station, so he needed fewer guards. To get onboard you would require his permission. The manuever Wash did, ballisticly launching the ship in with minimum power and hitting the dock exactly right is like throwing a grain of rice from the top of a building and landing in the coffee cup of a guy standing eight blocks away on the roof of an office building. Technically possible, but so difficult it's almost unthinkable.

Anybody with a powerful enough ship to get up close and breach the Space Station would be so far above his level he'd be screwed no matter what.

Jabba on the other hand used a ground-based facility, where one guy with a blaster could conceivably sneak in and kill him, so he took on a much larger staff to prevent that happening.
To put it another way, Adeli's defense was that it was near impossible to get to him without his knowledge. Jabbas was that he had lots of dude with guns.

Oh I agree, however the gangster in question was listed as having a mansion not a space station which leads me to believe that he'd be closer to Jabba's style defenses. And since Serenity's crew's entire plan in getting Mal back was=Awesomely impossible sneak. Breach, have useless half guard the ship (now Book and River proved not useless but they didn't know about River) and go charge in guns blazing, I'm inclined to believe that their lack of planning would end up getting them killed.

something along the lines of this.

Mal's in trouble. Time to rescue him!
Crash Serenity into the mansion???
You four guard Serenity
Turn corner see crap ton of guards.
Swear
Long inevitable shootout.
Luke, Leia, Chewy, and Lando hear of their exploits and alter their long, complicated, somewhat insane plans to make up for the hole in the mansion.

BRC

2009-12-12, 01:39 PM

Oh I agree, however the gangster in question was listed as having a mansion not a space station which leads me to believe that he'd be closer to Jabba's style defenses. And since Serenity's crew's entire plan in getting Mal back was=Awesomely impossible sneak. Breach, have useless half guard the ship (now Book and River proved not useless but they didn't know about River) and go charge in guns blazing, I'm inclined to believe that their lack of planning would end up getting them killed.
Mind you, we can't assume they would use the same plans no matter the situation. Rescuing Mal from the space station was time sensitive, he was being tortured and probably wouldn't last that much longer. Han was frozen in carbonite, they could take all the time they needed to plan and prepare. Team Reynolds has been shown to use very well thought out plans (Trash, Ariel), mind you Mal didn't come up with either of those plans, but still.
If Jabba was torturing Han in creative ways while quoting philosophy instead of using him as a conversation piece, I bet Team Solo would have been far more direct.

Dienekes

2009-12-12, 01:48 PM

Mind you, we can't assume they would use the same plans no matter the situation. Rescuing Mal from the space station was time sensitive, he was being tortured and probably wouldn't last that much longer. Han was frozen in carbonite, they could take all the time they needed to plan and prepare. Team Reynolds has been shown to use very well thought out plans (Trash, Ariel), mind you Mal didn't come up with either of those plans, but still.
If Jabba was torturing Han in creative ways while quoting philosophy, I bet Team Solo would have been far more direct.

Yes, quoting philosophy is it's own brand of torture.

But I digress. I was being a bit facetious, with the whole crash into the mansion bit. But it brings up the question, how would either group get into the mansion if let's say Han/Mal were being the deranged killed in a few days type of torture associated with Niska. Team Mal has really no way of entering, except ship crashing (Jayne doesn't have his grenades). Team Solo's at least has some sort of ship gun capability for breaking into such a place.

BRC

2009-12-12, 01:55 PM

Hadessniper

2009-12-12, 02:30 PM

If Dervag doesn't mind I have a new event.

Event #6: The Space Race

Both crews are hired to 'retrieve' a prototype ship with an impressive new automated weapons system. During the 'retrieval' the ships navigation computer is damaged beyond repair, being a prototype it's manual control is somewhat finicky and takes a delicate hand to fly.

On the way back to their employer each crew would encounter:

A deep space combat situation
An asteroid field
Navigation without a computerized star chart
A rival group of pirates successfully boarding and trying capture the prize ship
An atmospheric combat situation
An atmospheric landing

Points for

Speed
Least amount of damage taken
Style

Solaris

2009-12-12, 02:35 PM

I'm just gonna go ahead and point out that asteroid fields aren't a probem at all unless it's another one-in-a-bajillion like the one in Hoth System.

nepphi

2009-12-12, 02:58 PM

You mean they aren't in essence the same person?

My world is undone ;-;

factotum

2009-12-12, 04:03 PM

I'm going to assume that this is just a function of the power difference between the two settings. Also, I don't think the Falcon got hit with anything as tough as--shoot, was it an EMP? anyway, it was a superweapon in the context of Firefly, whereas the Falcon mostly got hit with stuff it was expected to take).

The Falcon is a freighter--I don't think there's any amount of stuff it's "expected" to take. In any case, we see on several occasions during the movies that the Falcon is under attack by multiple enemy fighters (and occasionally taking a few rounds from warships a mile or more long for good measure) and it just keeps on going. Even by the standards of their respective universes I have to assume that the Falcon is one tough little ship, because I doubt that freighters normally survive assaults from multiple fighters!

Dervag

2009-12-12, 05:09 PM

Yes, quoting philosophy is it's own brand of torture.

But I digress. I was being a bit facetious, with the whole crash into the mansion bit. But it brings up the question, how would either group get into the mansion if let's say Han/Mal were being the deranged killed in a few days type of torture associated with Niska. Team Mal has really no way of entering, except ship crashing (Jayne doesn't have his grenades). Team Solo's at least has some sort of ship gun capability for breaking into such a place.Jayne has grenades if he can sneak them past the captain, I said. Now, if the captain is locked in a torture chamber on another planet, it will be very easy to sneak grenades past him, yes?

In this case, Jayne can have all the grenades he wants, can afford, and can carry.

If Dervag doesn't mind I have a new event.

Event #6: The Space Race...I don't mind, although I chose five events for the same reason real-life athletic competitions do: there's no possibility of a 3-3 tie. So it would be nice if you could come up with a 7th event to balance the 6th.

You mean they aren't in essence the same person?

My world is undone ;-;In some ways they are essentially the same person, but in other ways they are quite different: different backgrounds, different command styles*, different goals. Han is a smuggler because he's good at it. Mal is a smuggler because it's the only way he knows to make a living while leading a small group of people without having to settle down and actively submit to the Alliance.

But they do have a great deal in common; I'm imagining that after the pentathlon is over (preferably ending in the epic escape scene described by Keshay) they wind up joining forces and joining the Rebellion.

(Heck, Han barely has a command style; by nature he is neither a leader nor a follower)

Thrawn183

2009-12-12, 05:18 PM

As far as the armament of the Firefly goes, I think we have to assume it would be armed in the star wars universe. EVERYBODY and their mum arms space ships in the star wars universe. At this point I don't think the Falcon has a missile launcher yet, so frankly its armaments are extremely weak. A larger freighter like Mal's would probably have a turbolaser. There are lots of examples of freighters that heavily armed (I think Talon Karrde's had three).

The point is that a quad blaster isn't all that hot at penetrating armor. Combined with high speed and maneuverability they make the Falcon great at destroying starfighters, but I'd expect a star wars equivalent to the Serenity to have a heck of a lot more punch against a hardened target than the Falcon.

SilentDragoon

2009-12-12, 05:26 PM

In Return of the Jedi, doesn't the Millenium Falcon launch torpedoes at the Death Star the Second's power core? Am I remembering wrong or is that added after the time period in question?

Thrawn183

2009-12-12, 05:41 PM

I do know the Falcon gets them at some point, I just don't think it had them before The Empire Strikes Back.

Gaelbert

2009-12-12, 06:01 PM

Texas_Ben

2009-12-12, 06:03 PM

A larger freighter like Mal's would probably have a turbolaser.

Turbolasers are pretty hardcore military equipment. I'd expect the Firefly to be armed similarly to the Falcon; with Lasers, Possibly Concussion missiles or Torpedoes, and maybe an ion cannon or two. I do think that Serenity is less likely to be carrying heavy weapons like missiles or torpedoes, and turbolasers are right out; Mal takes legitimate jobs when they're whats available, and neither the Alliance or the Imperials are fans of your common citizens being in posession of advanced weaponry. A few lasers for fending off pirates or shooting space junk out of the way? Fine. An anti capital-ship weapon? No siree.

Han, on the other hand, is more or less completely a smuggler and/or mercenary. Which means he is less constrained by what the law says, since he likes to avoid "imperial entanglements".

Reverent-One

2009-12-12, 06:10 PM

The falcon is actually quite well equipped weapons-wise. It's quad-laser cannons were notably better than normal (upgraded back when Lando owed it before Han did and again when Han got it), and it has a pair of concussion missile launchers, which are illegal for a civilian to own, that were added at an indeterminate time, they definitely used them in ROTJ, but I haven't seen anything to indicate they were specifically added between Empire and ROTJ.

EDIT: @Texas_ben, while the Serenity in the Star Wars universe would certainly be armed, it would probably just have a couple laser cannons, probably less powerful than the falcon's.

Solaris

2009-12-12, 07:07 PM

EDIT: @Texas_ben, while the Serenity in the Star Wars universe would certainly be armed, it would probably just have a couple laser cannons, probably less powerful than the falcon's.

While a lot of Rebellion-era ships were armed, a good chunk of ships from the era before the Clone Wars were not. Given that the Serenity was presented as being an old, medium-weight freighter, I'd say the Corellian HT-2200 would be a good representation of it - most of which only have small lasers turrets. Two single-barreled. I'm loathe to have it armed any heavier than that.

Obrysii

2009-12-12, 07:32 PM

Also, I don't think the Falcon got hit with anything as tough as--shoot, was it an EMP? anyway, it was a superweapon in the context of Firefly, whereas the Falcon mostly got hit with stuff it was expected to take).

Well, the Falcon was never designed to take such strikes from a Star Destroyer, yet we see it being pelted in The Empire Strikes Back.

The blast right before C3PO cries out, "One more hit on the hindquarters and we're done for!" was from the Destroyer's main cannons; a normal ship of the Falcon's size would be disintegrated by that.

However, none of Han's crew is half as good a mechanic as Kaylee.

R2-D2?

Solaris

2009-12-12, 09:02 PM

R2-D2?

Nonsense, Jewel Staite is way hotter.
In all seriousness, I'd say Kaylee's better at mechanics but she can't slice to save her life.

Da'Shain

2009-12-12, 09:29 PM

Han has always seemed like someone more lucky than skilled. Sure, he's a hotshot pilot, but Wash is a leaf on the wind. Just watch how he flies.His luck is certainly the main reason that Han's remained so alive and effective for so long ... but credit where credit's due, he's also one of the best pilots in the galaxy. Even disregarding the EU, Empire Strikes Back shows us several examples of his skill, most notably traversing the ridiculously improbable asteroid field (moving like he's choreographed it out ahead of time, no less) and taking advantage of a blind spot in a Star Destroyer's sensors so fast that the enemy thinks they simply vanished instead of locked onto their own hull. I really don't remember anything Wash does that is more impressive, although moving through the giant battle at the end of Serenity did remind me a lot of the asteroid field in ESB. I'd call them roughly equal, with Wash maybe having a slight edge because the ship he flies is bigger.

Anyway, cool thread! Yeah, I am surprised this hasn't been done more; I've seen matchups with these two, but usually just "Who draws faster" or "Who makes the snarkiest one-liners." Onto the situations!

Barroom Brawl
I'd have to agree that, if this fight doesn't degenerate into blasterfire, Chewie pretty much wins this for him and Han, although Han's no pushover himself; he's also a former military man (although he was never in a war before the Rebellion) and has spent just as much time in divy, dangerous bars as the crew of the Serenity have. Still, he's not as much of a factor here. Wookiees can be taken out by very well-trained martial artists in the Star Wars universe, but even most of them are usually hesitant to do so, since Wookiees are taller, larger, heavier, stronger and hardier than humans. None of the crew of the Serenity are particularly well-trained martial artists (with the obvious exception of River, but the setup left her out), and they're mostly brawlers, a style of fighting that Chewie pretty much takes to 11.

If blasters come out, though, I'd say it's pretty much a tossup, with the edge probably going to Mal's crew. All five of them are crackshots (yes, even Chewie; watch the shootout in the detention center in ANH, he's simultaneously taking out enemies and shooting out cameras with barely a pause), and three crackshots will probably win over two, especially since Chewie's weapon isn't quickdraw by any stretch of the imagination. Neither side is particularly likely to shoot first if it's only punches flying, though, so I doubt it would come to that.

Competitive Smuggling
Han, hands down. As was said earlier, Mal operates mainly by staying out of Alliance-patrolled territory; his ship is average in pretty much every respect except for its crew, and doesn't have a lot of options when it's actually been found by an Alliance/Imperial vessel. The Falcon, on the other hand, is much more than meets the eye; it's faster, tougher, and better armed than most military fighters, and Han habitually runs blockades through either subterfuge or sheer out-maneuvering.

The Falcon's smaller size also makes it a less tempting target for any Alliancimperial patrol, since those types of smuggler-busters usually get recognition and bonuses for busting big shipments rather than a lot of little ones. Any advantage the Serenity has in size is made up for by the Falcon's lower profile and greater capabilities.

Creative Maintenance
Kaylee's basically a wizard when it comes to keeping the ship running, so I'll agree with most others on this score and say that Mal's crew wins this one. They're also helped along by their ship's average makeup, which means that they can find replacement parts more easily and ride the parts they are using much less hard than those on the Falcon, which are pretty much all non-standard and overclocked.

However, the primary example people quote for Han and Chewie's sub-par skills, the hyperdrive malfunction in Episode V, is really an unfair one. :smallfrown: They'd taken their ship to a pretty much nonfunctional state for maintenance work (since they were laying low on Hoth for months) and had only just decided to leave, the day before the Imperial attack happened and forced their han. The fact that it worked as well as it did is pretty amazing; the hyperdrive malfunction is perfectly understandable, considering how massively complicated a device that warps dimensions around your ship must be, and adding on that the .5 drive was highly nonstandard and almost still in its experimental stages at that point in history. It's gotta be pretty damned hard to fix something like that when you're running for your life in space, with no spare parts and very little downtime.

Knight Errantry
Well, the crew of the Serenity obviously wins the most bonus points with its varied capabilities. However, I'd say that not only is the Falcon a far greater asset in a fight than the Serenity, but Han and Chewie are also more likely to take a proactive rather than reactive stance. In "Heart of Gold," the crew of the Serenity basically decided to hole themselves up along with the people they were protecting, shore up the defenses and man the walls, so to speak. Everything we see about Han Solo, though, points to him preferring to take a more direct action. Given the same scenario, I'd see Han instead waltzing into town and challenging the local ringleader to a duel, or taking away his capability to make war (say, stealing his horses and speeder-thingy), or simply threatening his from orbit with the Falcon's visible weaponry. Instead of making it an actual battle, Han's more likely to turn it into a swift strike of his own before such a battle can take place.

And Han's contacts are pretty obviously better than Mal's, even though Han's not technically a full member of the Rebellion at this point; a tipoff to a nearby sympathetic Rebel cell is likely to bring far more resources than the Serenity can boast by itself. So I'd give this one to Han, actually, because the settlement IMO would sustain no damage (assuming he succeeds, of course), and the Rebellion could be convinced to help if it made the planet an ally. At this point, though, I'd say that Han is less likely to waive a fee for his "services", so I suppose he loses on that.

Escape the Crime Lord
I ... really have no idea, on this one. The two situations they were in were very different, IMO. Niska was a fairly large crime lord in the Firefly universe, and made his home on a station that should have been pretty much impossible to inflitrate, but his station was not staffed with a lot of goons (probably no more than twice the Serenity's numbers, if that), and Mal was left unattended and unimprisoned when Niska and his number two were distracted. Jabba, on the other hand, headed a far more massive organization, and his palace was home to the assorted scum and villainy of the galaxy, among them many trained killers, thugs, and bounty hunters like Boba Fett; a frontal assault on such a place would have been suicide for anything less than a full Alliance strike force, no matter how surprising the attack was. Plus, Han was in a coma the entire time (not a chance of escaping on his own) and even after he was freed, was essentially blind.

I would honestly put them about equal here, with the Serenity having a slight advantage due to its larger crew and each crew member's relative anonymity (it's pretty hard for Luke Skywalker, Leia Organa, and Han's ever-present best friend Chewbacca to not be recognized). Luke's latent Force abilities (since he's untrained) would likely be pretty well matched by River's seemingly greater abilities in mind-reading, premonitions and unerring aim but much more fragile and unreliable psyche, so I wouldn't say either of them tip the scales too much. I'll say Mal's crew is more likely to succeed, but to be honest I'm really undecided.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-12, 10:07 PM

-*stuff han did* I really don't remember anything Wash does that is more impressive, although moving through the giant battle at the end of Serenity did remind me a lot of the asteroid field in ESB. I'd call them roughly equal, with Wash maybe having a slight edge because the ship he flies is bigger.

In one episode he flew through a canyon at full speed. I can't remember but I think they might have been getting shot at.

I'd put them about equal, with wash being the better pilot but with Han being better able to handle the ship in a fight.

Trobby

2009-12-12, 10:32 PM

A lot of votes seem to be going towards Serenity because of Kaylee's technical expertise.

I'm not actually here to make an argument, I just think a meeting between Kaylee and R2-D2 would be the most adorable thing ever.

Just imagine her eyes lighting up when that little droid mechanic wheels over to her, beeping and whistling like a little magical engine.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-12, 10:35 PM

Hadessniper

2009-12-12, 10:36 PM

Han and Chewie are also more likely to take a proactive rather than reactive stance. In "Heart of Gold," the crew of the Serenity basically decided to hole themselves up along with the people they were protecting, shore up the defenses and man the walls, so to speak. Everything we see about Han Solo, though, points to him preferring to take a more direct action.

In Heart of Gold there really wasn't anything else Mal could do. Short of murdering an affluent member of the community in cold blood nothing would stop the father from trying to take his son. They could have threatened him and destroyed his property, but when they left he would have just had more support in taking on the compound.

The only good option to take would have been what Mal first suggested, to pull up stakes and move to a new world, which the ladies refused. So he prepared for the inevitable fight and hoped to kill the aggressor in the attack he initiated on the innocent business thus limiting the fallout that would land on the ladies he was protecting.

So it isn't that he is more reactive then proactive it was just that specific situation.

Trobby

2009-12-12, 10:37 PM

Kaylee/R2 slashfic go. Bonus points if you use the phrase "magical engine".

...*Rolls up newspaper, swat* no. Bad fan. Bad. :smallmad: Going with the whole "my crew is my family", I see it more developing as a brother/sister relationship.

Solaris

2009-12-12, 10:40 PM

...*Rolls up newspaper, swat* no. Bad fan. Bad. :smallmad: Going with the whole "my crew is my family", I see it more developing as a brother/sister relationship.

See, that newspaper's just not enough. You gotta get a little more... insistent.
Allow me to introduce the M198. It's a 155 millimeters of insistence.

Haven

2009-12-12, 10:43 PM

If blasters come out, though, I'd say it's pretty much a tossup, with the edge probably going to Mal's crew. All five of them are crackshots (yes, even Chewie; watch the shootout in the detention center in ANH, he's simultaneously taking out enemies and shooting out cameras with barely a pause), and three crackshots will probably win over two, especially since Chewie's weapon isn't quickdraw by any stretch of the imagination. Neither side is particularly likely to shoot first if it's only punches flying, though, so I doubt it would come to that.

Neither side is particularly likely to shoot first

:furious:

:smalltongue:

Texas_Ben

2009-12-12, 10:45 PM

...*Rolls up newspaper, swat* no. Bad fan. Bad. :smallmad: Going with the whole "my crew is my family", I see it more developing as a brother/sister relationship.

It could be sort of like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Phantom-Seraph/strawberry.gif).

Trobby

2009-12-12, 10:59 PM

It could be sort of like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Phantom-Seraph/strawberry.gif).

...

I'll be in my bunk...

Don Julio Anejo

2009-12-12, 10:59 PM

Allow me to introduce the M198. It's a 155 millimeters of insistence.
You call her Vera? :amused:

On a serious note... This thread wins the internets! (Do people even say it anymore? :smallconfused:)
Dervag, +100 for making this thread! :smallsmile:

Da'Shain

2009-12-12, 11:12 PM

In one episode he flew through a canyon at full speed. I can't remember but I think they might have been getting shot at.

I'd put them about equal, with wash being the better pilot but with Han being better able to handle the ship in a fight.Han's capable of such things in the EU, but you're right, he never did something similar in the movies. Still, I'd probably agree with you that Wash would likely out-pilot Han in a simple race or obstacle course, although only barely, but in a combat situation Han is undoubtedly the cannier pilot. (Wash forgot in that same episode that flying takes place in three dimensions! :smalltongue:)

In Heart of Gold there really wasn't anything else Mal could do. Short of murdering an affluent member of the community in cold blood nothing would stop the father from trying to take his son. They could have threatened him and destroyed his property, but when they left he would have just had more support in taking on the compound.See, I don't agree here. The man was basically a rich gang leader; take away his wealth and/or humiliate him in front of his gang, and it's quite likely that the citizenry of his town would cease to follow him. Of course, he would still be alive and breed bad blood (unless he were killed in a duel or something similar), but to be honest that's preferable to a pitched battle that resulted in many deaths on both sides, even if they were mostly extras without speaking parts.

The only good option to take would have been what Mal first suggested, to pull up stakes and move to a new world, which the ladies refused. So he prepared for the inevitable fight and hoped to kill the aggressor in the attack he initiated on the innocent business thus limiting the fallout that would land on the ladies he was protecting.I'm not saying that Mal's plan was necessarily the wrong way to go, or that Han's likely course of action would definitely work; but Mal's way involves an acceptance of loss of life and a fundamental soldier's point of view as to how to go about solving the problem, not the only option in that situation. If Han's plan didn't work, the ladies could well be in worse trouble than before, but then he could always fall back on a defense of the brothel itself, which with a smaller crew and less battle experience he wouldn't be as good a leader for, but would be a much greater asset with the Falcon in the skies (and would be much less likely to allow his ship to be boarded).

So it isn't that he is more reactive then proactive it was just that specific situation.Yeah, I regret that phrasing; Mal is certainly not merely reactive. Perhaps a better way to say this is that Mal is a soldier, whereas Han is a gambler. Mal weighs the odds and goes with the solution which he thinks has the best chance of working with the minimum loss; Han ignores or plays with the odds and goes for as close to a clear win as possible.

:furious:

:smalltongue:I know, I realized the irony as I was writing it. :smallbiggrin: I did append the "if it's only punches flying," though; guns in the face and insinuating threats take things to the next level, I'd say.

Dervag

2009-12-12, 11:56 PM

See, that newspaper's just not enough. You gotta get a little more... insistent.
Allow me to introduce the M198. It's a 155 millimeters of insistence.Yes, but unless you're the Incredible Hulk, you can't roll it up and swat someone with it.

Han's capable of such things in the EU, but you're right, he never did something similar in the movies. Still, I'd probably agree with you that Wash would likely out-pilot Han in a simple race or obstacle course, although only barely, but in a combat situation Han is undoubtedly the cannier pilot. (Wash forgot in that same episode that flying takes place in three dimensions! :smalltongue:)Serenity's vectored-thrust VTOL flight system doesn't lend itself to the full range of 3D maneuver, at least not in a gravity field. There are too many ways to end up in a power dive, because you have no lift, only the thrust of your engines holding you in the air.

Solaris

2009-12-13, 12:04 AM

You call her Vera? :amused:

On a serious note... This thread wins the internets! (Do people even say it anymore? :smallconfused:)
Dervag, +100 for making this thread! :smallsmile:

No, I called my SAW Vera for all of the six weeks I had her. I forget the howitzer's name - it's been about two years since I saw the M198 (we switched over to the much easier and much more fragile M777).

Yes, but unless you're the Incredible Hulk, you can't roll it up and swat someone with it.

Who said anything about swatting? M'heheheh.

Hadessniper

2009-12-13, 12:32 AM

See, I don't agree here. The man was basically a rich gang leader; take away his wealth and/or humiliate him in front of his gang, and it's quite likely that the citizenry of his town would cease to follow him.

I see him as more of a manipulator. Using his influence in the community to stir latent feeling of anger and fear to his will. If they were to just threaten and even humiliate him he would play the victim and use that to say "Those evil whores hired barbaric thugs to stop me from rescuing my son from being raised in that house of iniquity." The second they left he would be back with a group 3 times as big as any he could have raised otherwise.

BRC

2009-12-13, 12:55 AM

I see him as more of a manipulator. Using his influence in the community to stir latent feeling of anger and fear to his will. If they were to just threaten and even humiliate him he would play the victim and use that to say "Those evil whores hired barbaric thugs to stop me from rescuing my son from being raised in that house of iniquity." The second they left he would be back with a group 3 times as big as any he could have raised otherwise.
No. He was definitely wealthy (he had a hovercraft and a laser weapon remember), his men were guns for hire.

Hadessniper

2009-12-13, 01:04 AM

No. He was definitely wealthy (he had a hovercraft and a laser weapon remember), his men were guns for hire.

I remember him rabble rousing and convincing his men of the need for attacking the house. They seemed more of an angry mob then hired guns to me.

Dienekes

2009-12-13, 01:50 AM

I took it for a bit of both. He threw money around to get what he wanted, and once in a position he used his natural charisma to rabble rouse.

Course this was just what I projected onto the character. All we really know is he was very wealthy, he liked to talk before fighting engagements, and seemed to control the town.

CarpeGuitarrem

2009-12-13, 01:54 AM

Mal summons a fleet of Reavers. End of story.

Reverent-One

2009-12-13, 02:04 AM

Mal summons a fleet of Reavers. End of story.

Did you read the first post? "We use Malcolm Reynolds with the crew of Serenity as of the later part of the TV series, but before the events of the episode "Heart of Gold" or the movie Serenity." Now, I haven't finished the full series, but I'm only a couple of episodes away from Heart of gold. Somehow I doubt Mal gets the ability to summon a fleet of reavers in 2 episodes.

Dervag

2009-12-13, 02:05 AM

No, I called my SAW Vera for all of the six weeks I had her. I forget the howitzer's name - it's been about two years since I saw the M198 (we switched over to the much easier and much more fragile M777).In what ways is the fragility an issue? I know they pared down the weight by about a factor of two; I gather they did it by swapping steel for titanium in a lot of places. But since there's always a catch, what's the catch?

Did you read the first post? "We use Malcolm Reynolds with the crew of Serenity as of the later part of the TV series, but before the events of the episode "Heart of Gold" or the movie Serenity." Now, I haven't finished the full series, but I'm only a couple of episodes away from Heart of gold. Somehow I doubt Mal gets the ability to summon a fleet of reavers in 2 episodes.In the movie, he tricks a fleet of Reavers into attacking an Alliance fleet. So it's something Mal is capable of, even if it wouldn't help.

And frankly, in all these scenarios a fleet of Reavers would be useless...

Reverent-One

2009-12-13, 02:12 AM

In the movie, he tricks a fleet of Reavers into attacking an Alliance fleet. So it's something Mal is capable of, even if it wouldn't help.

Well, I don't think tricking a fleet of reavers, that happens to be close by, into hitting a target you need hit is the same as summoning a fleet of them.

And frankly, in all these scenarios a fleet of Reavers would be useless...

True that. Which makes it even more obvious that Carpe read the thread title and hit reply without reading anything else.

Mewtarthio

2009-12-13, 02:33 AM

In Heart of Gold there really wasn't anything else Mal could do. Short of murdering an affluent member of the community in cold blood nothing would stop the father from trying to take his son.

But didn't they execute the guy at the end anyway? Why not just do so preemptively?

kpenguin

2009-12-13, 02:35 AM

Mal summons a fleet of Reavers. End of story.

Han Summons Bigger Fish. End of Story.

Dervag

2009-12-13, 03:27 AM

But didn't they execute the guy at the end anyway? Why not just do so preemptively?Because gunning a man down in public when he has not, strictly speaking, done anything yet is very different from gunning him down at the end of a firefight where most of the possible witnesses are already fled or dead. From a practical standpoint, if not an ethical standpoint. It would be very easy to claim that Burgess "died in the fighting," especially seeing as how he had shot the madam of the house dead with a unique weapon that only he owned.

Moreover, it's not at all clear to me that any of the crew of Serenity were directly involved in the shooting; it was Petaline who pulled the trigger.
_____

In any event, it would not have been practical for Mal to simply kill Burgess preemptively without laying some political groundwork... which there was no time for. The whole thing, from Mal's first meeting with Burgess (which was the first point at which he knew Burgess would have to be killed to make him stop) to the assault on the brothel took place in one day.

Solaris

2009-12-13, 07:48 AM

In what ways is the fragility an issue? I know they pared down the weight by about a factor of two; I gather they did it by swapping steel for titanium in a lot of places. But since there's always a catch, what's the catch?

Oh, it's not the chassis that breaks, it's all the electronic crap and hydraulic systems that break down every twenty minutes. What a lot of people tend to forget is Murphy's Law really does apply with military hardware, so all the cool crap will break down, leaving you with the old stuff - that may or may not be harder to use because of the now-broken 'improved' systems. They even ever-so-stupidly switched the old gearbox from the M198 out for a new belt-driven system which, I kid you not, slips up every time you adjust the gun and will break in arctic conditions. It springs a leak in the right hose (and it will), you can't use the howitzer at all. Compare to the M198, which... uh, I think you'd have to drop it from a Black Hawk to deadline it. And even then...
The M777A2 is not suited for work in the Arctic, nor does it survive a dust desert well. After three-four weeks training in the DTA, our battery was down to just one functional gun (out of six). After a month in NTC, all six guns were down again. Compare again to the M198, which we took out to much worse conditions and none of them even thought about going down.

Hadessniper

2009-12-13, 08:11 AM

Oh, it's not the chassis that breaks, it's all the electronic crap and hydraulic systems that break down every twenty minutes. What a lot of people tend to forget is Murphy's Law really does apply with military hardware, so all the cool crap will break down, leaving you with the old stuff - that may or may not be harder to use because of the now-broken 'improved' systems. They even ever-so-stupidly switched the old gearbox from the M198 out for a new belt-driven system which, I kid you not, slips up every time you adjust the gun and will break in arctic conditions. It springs a leak in the right hose (and it will), you can't use the howitzer at all. Compare to the M198, which... uh, I think you'd have to drop it from a Black Hawk to deadline it. And even then...
The M777A2 is not suited for work in the Arctic, nor does it survive a dust desert well. After three-four weeks training in the DTA, our battery was down to just one functional gun (out of six). After a month in NTC, all six guns were down again. Compare again to the M198, which we took out to much worse conditions and none of them even thought about going down.

So in essence "Shee-niou high-tech Alliance crap!"

Solaris

2009-12-13, 02:47 PM

So in essence "Shee-niou high-tech Alliance crap!"

Yes, exactly.

CarpeGuitarrem

2009-12-13, 04:32 PM

Han Summons Bigger Fish. End of Story.
That's Jim, not Han. ;)

(To the above: my original post was intended to be more of a joke than anything...)

Dervag

2009-12-13, 07:04 PM

Oh, it's not the chassis that breaks, it's all the electronic crap and hydraulic systems that break down every twenty minutes...I wasn't sure it was the chassis; most objects made out of three tons of titanium are fairly durable, after all. My observation that there's always a catch was independent of my having heard that the M777 was a lighter gun.

They even ever-so-stupidly switched the old gearbox from the M198 out for a new belt-driven system which, I kid you not, slips up every time you adjust the gun and will break in arctic conditions. It springs a leak in the right hose (and it will), you can't use the howitzer at all.Any idea what they were thinking in terms of?

AmberVael

2009-12-13, 07:45 PM

Just in terms of the barfight- I don't know if this really puts it into a win for Mal and team, but...

Remember "Ariel?" Jayne takes down two feds, both of whom are armed, while his hands are handcuffed behind him. He's not just strong- that takes some real skill. He was quick, and capable of working around his limitations to the point where he turned an uneven fight into a decisive win for him.
Granted, Simon had to help a little, but Jayne took the initiative and practically won it for them.

Now, I'm not sure if can really compete against a giant hairy guy that can rip your arms off, but Jayne, even unarmed, is good. Also, I imagine he'd be the most likely to change the situation from tavern brawl to "superior weaponry." Maybe not pulling a gun, but I seem to remember him pulling a nice metal barstool and hitting people without any reservations...
That's Jayne for you.
:smalltongue:

In Mal vs. Han Barfight, I'd put money on Mal's team at least putting down Han. Chewy? Less likely... but they'd get Han at least. Still, they're pretty good at improvisation- they might figure out a way. Brute strength will get you far in a brawl, but it isn't necessarily everything.

StGlebidiah

2009-12-13, 09:37 PM

Maybe I'm reading more into some of the replies than I should, but lots of people seem to be forgetting one or two very important aspects of the Barroom Brawl event: teams start on opposite sides, and the ENTIRE BAR is involved.

In other words, unless Han and Chewy know that Mal and pals are in the bar, they will likely not notice them immediately, or even for a good period of time, because they're just another group of drunkards. However, you can bet your bunions that EVERYONE in the bar will notice the freakin' Wookiee.

You can also probably bet that if said Wookiee actually rends limbs from bodies, the barman will pull out a fairly substantial blaster or even a thermal detonator from the behind the bar and order said Wookiee the carp out of his establishment. Though, to be fair, Obi-Wan does not get kicked out of the bar for lopping off a limb, so this may not occur - the fight might just END, then and there. Chewy wins, everyone else slinks off, or nonchalantly returns to drinking. But that probably depends entirely on what planet you're on (limb removal is likely only acceptable in Mos Eisley and similar hives of... you know).

Mal will probably note the occasional flying body in the air, ask Jayne if he can handle the large hairy beast providing propulsion, to which Jayne will probably pose a query regarding the acceptability of using grenades/firearms, to which Mal will answer in the negative, and they will promptly retreat. If forced into confrontation, they will likely come up with some sort of plan, involving heavy pieces of furniture and surprise, but they have to act fast or there won't be enough bodies left standing to provide cover.

Solaris

2009-12-13, 11:33 PM

Any idea what they were thinking in terms of?

Uhh... Well, I think they were trying to save a coupla pounds off the gun. Or a coupla bucks.

Talya

2009-12-14, 12:09 AM

One Fruity Oaty Bars commercial changes the bar room brawl into a blood bath that not even Chewie can stop.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 12:16 AM

One Fruity Oaty Bars commercial changes the bar room brawl into a blood bath that not even Chewie can stop.

And she can kill you with her brain :smallwink:

Dienekes

2009-12-14, 12:30 AM

One Fruity Oaty Bars commercial changes the bar room brawl into a blood bath that not even Chewie can stop.

We're working around the supers here. Mal gets no Fruity Oaty Bars and Han's doesn't get a Jedi Knight.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-14, 12:44 AM

We're working around the supers here. Mal gets no Fruity Oaty Bars and Han's doesn't get a Jedi Knight.

In the event of fruity oaty bars, Mal doesn't get river either... it turns out being RIVER TAM BEATS UP EVERYONE (http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/action_movies.png), in which both Mal and team and Han and crew wind up a bloody mess on the floor.

Yoren

2009-12-14, 12:55 AM

Can Han fight well? I know he's pretty handy with a blaster but I don't ever recall him ever getting into a serious brawl in the movies.

I'd probably give it to team Mal. Zoe can take care of Han while Jayne and Mal fend off Chewie and wait for her to come and help. Everyone probably takes a beaten but 3v1 is tough odds for our fuzzy friend.

Reverent-One

2009-12-14, 12:59 AM

Yoren

2009-12-14, 01:06 AM

Solaris

2009-12-14, 01:06 AM

Honestly, I doubt Jayne and Mal would last long enough against Chewie for Zoe to beat Han.

Yes, but we never see Chewie winning any hand-to-hand fights. We do see Jayne beating the tar out of two professional guards with his hands tied behind his back.

Reverent-One

2009-12-14, 01:19 AM

Chewie is strong but never struck me as particularly agile or fast (which could simply be a function of the limited special effects). Mal and Jayne are tough and smart fighters so if anyone has a shot its them. Plus, now that I think about it, if one of them gets smashed across the bar the other wouldn't hesitate to pull his gun.

Well, if it turns to gunfight in the middle of the room, I'd probably give it to the firefly crew as well, if for no other reason than numbers.

Yes, but we never see Chewie winning any hand-to-hand fights. We do see Jayne beating the tar out of two professional guards with his hands tied behind his back.

Whether or not Chewie is especially skilled in hand to hand combat (which is not to say I don't think he is), just being a wookie gives him massive advantages. A wookie can pull off limbs of other creatures with their bare hands. That's a level of strength I don't think you see in humans at all. On top of that, their size gives them an excellent reach as well. At least one hand-to-hand combat expert in the Star Wars universe has said that they don't think it's physically possible for a human to beat a wookie fighting that way. Seems to me, Wookies are effectively as much an "I win" button in melee granted by Star Wars being "fantasic" sci-fi in a comparison to a more realistic one like firefly as their technology normally is.

Yoren

2009-12-14, 01:31 AM

Just because I'm curious is this an expert in hand-to-hand combat that is well versed in Star Wars lore? Or is it an expert from the Star Wars lore?

Reverent-One

2009-12-14, 01:35 AM

Just because I'm curious is this an expert in hand-to-hand combat that is well versed in Star Wars lore? Or is it an expert from the Star Wars lore?

From Star Wars, one of Warlord Zsinj's officers. And if an imperial is giving a non-human species that much respect, it's not for nothing.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 01:36 AM

Whether or not Chewie is especially skilled in hand to hand combat (which is not to say I don't think he is), just being a wookie gives him massive advantages. A wookie can pull off limbs of other creatures with their bare hands. That's a level of strength I don't think you see in humans at all. On top of that, their size gives them an excellent reach as well. At least one hand-to-hand combat expert in the Star Wars universe has said that they don't think it's physically possible for a human to beat a wookie fighting that way. Seems to me, Wookies are effectively as much an "I win" button in melee granted by Star Wars being "fantasic" sci-fi in a comparison to a more realistic one like firefly as their technology normally is.

True, but Mal's not exactly a slouch either. I don't underestimate the power of two versus one.

I'm betting if the Wookiee rips one's arm off, the other's just gonna shoot him.

Yoren

2009-12-14, 01:38 AM

From Star Wars, one of Warlord Zsinj's officers. And if an imperial is giving a non-human species that much respect, it's not for nothing.

True. I asked cause I just had a funny mental image of an old Kung Fu master sitting with a bunch of people watching Star Wars and dispensing some wisdom.

Reverent-One

2009-12-14, 01:39 AM

True, but Mal's not exactly a slouch either. I don't underestimate the power of two versus one.

On the other hand, two vs a wookie just might mean the wookie definitely has an improvised club to beat the other with. :smallbiggrin:

I'm betting if the Wookiee rips one's arm off, the other's just gonna shoot him.

Note: the reference to arms being ripped off was to establish the difference in strength, not to say Chewie would be doing so at a moment's notice.

True. I asked cause I just had a funny mental image of an old Kung Fu master sitting with a bunch of people watching Star Wars and dispensing some wisdom.

Heh heh. Thanks for that.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 01:41 AM

On the other hand, two on one vs a wookie just might mean the wookie definitely has an improvised club to beat the other with. :smallbiggrin:

... Aand the award for Best Mental Image of the Day goes to Reverent-One.

Note: the reference to arms being ripped off was to establish the difference in strength, not to say Chewie would be doing so at a moment's notice.

Point.

Dienekes

2009-12-14, 01:49 AM

Yes, but we never see Chewie winning any hand-to-hand fights. We do see Jayne beating the tar out of two professional guards with his hands tied behind his back.

Han Solo carbonite scene. Chewy flips 3-4 stormtroopers like ragdolls before Han cools him down. He also seems to offscreen break his handcuffs.

Dervag

2009-12-14, 02:02 AM

You can also probably bet that if said Wookiee actually rends limbs from bodies, the barman will pull out a fairly substantial blaster or even a thermal detonator from the behind the bar and order said Wookiee the carp out of his establishment. Though, to be fair, Obi-Wan does not get kicked out of the bar for lopping off a limb, so this may not occur - the fight might just END, then and there. Chewy wins, everyone else slinks off, or nonchalantly returns to drinking. But that probably depends entirely on what planet you're on (limb removal is likely only acceptable in Mos Eisley and similar hives of... you know).I'm picturing a place with more reputability than the Mos Eisley cantina, but still well short of "family establishment" rank. Chopping people's arms off isn't acceptable behavior if you want to stay inside and have a quiet drink, though knocking them unconscious might be. With provocation...:smallsmile:
_______

One Fruity Oaty Bars commercial changes the bar room brawl into a blood bath that not even Chewie can stop.Probably, though I honestly think Chewie would have at least a slight chance of subduing activated-River by brute force. Jayne couldn't, but Jayne's got human anatomy (which River knows well enough to take apart blindfolded), and merely human strength, even if near the high end of that distribution. Chewie is chimp-strong, possibly gorilla-strong and it's implied that he's similarly ape-durable. Humans are much easier to incapacitate using joint leverage and the like than we need to be, because our muscle structure and tendon attachments aren't really all that rugged.

River needs those techniques in close combat, because she's already so much less massive and physically strong than most of her opponents. It would have been interesting seeing her go up against a professional martial artist who wasn't surprised and already knew what kind of tactics she'd be likely to use and how to avoid them, come to think of it.
_______

And, as Dienekes says, no Fruity Oaty Bars commercials with carefully tuned subliminal messaging. The central government hasn't thought to try activating her as a way to flush her out of hiding yet. An ordinary commercial wouldn't cut it, either.

Also, there's a reason I didn't bring River into this. She'd utterly dominate the fight after her combat training is unlocked (which, in my version of the scenario, it isn't); no one but Chewie or a Jedi knight could even hope to stop her. But on the other hand, she'd be useless, worse than useless, even, before it's unlocked. She'd just be a noncombatant for the Firefly crew to protect, and one badly detached from reality, at that. And then I'd have to stick Han and Chewie with C-3PO for balance.
_______

From Star Wars, one of Warlord Zsinj's officers. And if an imperial is giving a non-human species that much respect, it's not for nothing.Yeah. Humans just don't have the muscle or the reach to take Wookiees one on one. If a group of humans with some kind of unit cohesion had to fight a group of Wookiees, they might possibly manage to injure some of them, especially in a fight with melee weapons rather than bare hands. But one on one, that's superhuman heroics territory; the sort of thing only Jedi or one-in-a-quadrillion martial artist could even hope to do.

Of course, there are a lot of species in Star Wars that might stand a better chance; possibly, say, the insectoid and exoskeletal Gand (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gand). Those guys are flippin' badasses.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 02:11 AM

Han Solo carbonite scene. Chewy flips 3-4 stormtroopers like ragdolls before Han cools him down. He also seems to offscreen break his handcuffs.

Well, that's just pushing some guys. He's strong, no doubts there, but the question was mostly about skill.

Dervag

2009-12-14, 03:05 AM

Well, that's just pushing some guys. He's strong, no doubts there, but the question was mostly about skill.While it's a commonplace that strength isn't a match for skill in unarmed combat, that commonplace starts to break down fast when the disparity is large, especially when the strong fellow is actively superhuman.

The closest parallel to Wookiee strength in real life is the apes- chimpanzees are at the low end and are typically (two? three? five?) times stronger than even an adult human male in equivalent physical condition. Gorillas are best described by analogy to machine tools. Fighting an ape is not unlike trying to fight an adult as a child: even with the greatest skill in the world the odds are good that you just can not do it, because you don't have the mass, the leverage, or the muscular tensile strength to make a dent. Meanwhile, the only thing keeping the stronger party from taking you apart like a chicken is their own restraint. You'd need a fairly nasty weapon just to have a semblance of parity, and you'd still be screwed if they got a good grip on you.

Now, we have no evidence that Chewie is particularly skilled... but none that he isn't, or at least that he doesn't have basic hand to hand combat aptitude. Combine that with what is definitely ape-grade strength, and you have something very dangerous.

Yoren

2009-12-14, 03:26 AM

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 03:32 AM

As for the arguments about river one must remember she does not need a commercial to kick some sorry a**. I will note the scene where she kills 3 guys without looking and with very little semblance of effort. Her true skill comes from the fact that she can read minds (never truly stated but there is so much evidence pick your favorite) So even a trained martial artist can not stand up to her should she try because her abilities come from not only knowing what you are going to do but how to counter it (due to her rediculous intellect) . The wookie would not even have a chance against her and I would even say a jedi could not because even with the ability to see parts of the future they still have to think about it.

Also if I am not mistaken the belt thing Chewie has is a symbol of office which would leave one to think he is skilled

Solaris

2009-12-14, 03:32 AM

I guess the real question is how many barstools to the back of the head would it take to bring chewie down? Being 2v1 is a huge advantage just split to opposite sides and take a whack when he goes after you're partner. It won't be painless, especially against something like Chewie, but its effective.

That's pretty much what I was getting at for the strength in numbers. Chewie's never really demonstrated much brains in a fight, but Mal and his crew have.
A'course, if Han and Chewie are fighting side-by-side and the Serenity's three brawlers can't get 'em separated, then I'm gonna call the fight a win for the smugglers.

secretbison

2009-12-14, 03:45 AM

I guess the real question is how many barstools to the back of the head would it take to bring chewie down? Being 2v1 is a huge advantage just split to opposite sides and take a whack when he goes after you're partner. It won't be painless, especially against something like Chewie, but its effective.

A tricky question. If we're simply guessing based on what's shown in the movies, we've never seen Chewie take enough direct blunt trauma to knock him unconscious. If it were dramatically appropriate, he could go down with only one hit. If we're using his RPG stats under Saga Edition, he could probably take at least ten hits from a mook with an improvised weapon, but only because his level is so high. The average Wookie is maybe only 20% tougher than the average human.

Dervag

2009-12-14, 05:08 AM

As for the arguments about river one must remember she does not need a commercial to kick some sorry a**. I will note the scene where she kills 3 guys without looking and with very little semblance of effort.Yes, but that was fairly obviously a fluke- a bit of that training bubbling to the surface under extreme stress. She wasn't even clear on what she'd done afterwards, as I recall. She didn't start showing reliable combat ability on that level until after the Alliance pulled her trigger.

Her true skill comes from the fact that she can read minds (never truly stated but there is so much evidence pick your favorite) So even a trained martial artist can not stand up to her should she try because her abilities come from not only knowing what you are going to do but how to counter it (due to her rediculous intellect).Debatable. At equal levels of martial arts training? Sure, River wins, but not nearly as easily, because even though she can predict what her opponent is planning offensively, a trained martial artist will recognize her attacks and move to block them, and will thus present a stronger defense against her attacks. She won't just be able to kick him in the side of the head and have done with it; she's going to have to fake him out, and that takes considerably more time and luck. And since she's on the low end of the scale in terms of mass and (probably) strength, that gives her additional disadvantages. I'd still expect her to win, but not as casually as she takes down random brawlers.

Against someone who's significantly her superior in training, possibly like a fully trained Operative? That would be an interesting day, because people at that level of the martial arts have an uncanny ability to not be where you expect them to be in their own right. They can't read your thoughts, but they can read your muscle movements and the shift of your stance... and I doubt River's been in training long enough to have drilled those reactions out of her.

The wookie would not even have a chance against her and I would even say a jedi could not because even with the ability to see parts of the future they still have to think about it.Against a Jedi, very debatable; Jedi do exactly the same thing River does, and they have more practice and generally don't suffer from massive psychiatric illnesses as a side effect. There's at least one example from the Star Wars expanded universe novels of a martial artist with undiagnosed Force ability becoming pure hell on wheels in unarmed combat, almost approaching River-grade even without active training the Jedi benefit from.

Against a Wookiee, less debatable, but still kind of shaky. Knowing exactly what your opponent is going to do only helps you if you have the physical capability to block or outmaneuver it, and Chewie is so damned strong that even a split second error in River's timing could be decisive. He is quite capable of simply grabbing her and whipping her into a wall with a force commonly associated with low-speed car accidents, even assuming he isn't willing to start pulling off limbs.

The closest to this we see in the movie is Jayne, and Jayne has two disadvantages:
1)He's trying to immobilize her, not put her down for the count, which is stupidly dangerous against someone that capable.
2)It's pretty clear that despite what she's done to all those other guys, he still doesn't take her as seriously as she deserves, at least not on a fundamental level. He doesn't approach her like she was a lethal high-end martial artist.
Moreover, there's no reason to assume that he's going to be as easy to bring down with a few well placed kicks as an human; Wookiees are strongly implied to be almost as durable as they are strong.

DMfromTheAbyss

2009-12-14, 05:44 AM

OK I hate to be a Star Wars Fan Boy, then again I'm a bit of a Firefly Fanboy too.. then again I'm posting in this thread so...

Anyway what people are misunderstanding about wookies... (according to EU and various novels)

Wookie's are really strong, over 7 feet tall and arboreal, weighing something like 300 pounds and all of it lean muscle capable of propelling them up a tree like a squirrel. So yes they are big strong clawed aliens. However in the Star Wars universe there are larger and stronger aliens. So why are Wookie's the go to "don't get in a scrap with one" race?

They aren't the alpha predator, or indeed even close to the largest or strongest thing on their world. They are the little scrappy smart guys, from a very bad "neighborhood" that includes 20 ton monstrous lizards and flora capable of eating them. This has led them to do the whole warrior/hunter thing and not only depend upon brawn but skill, guts, and when neccesary teamwork, strategy and if all else fails the ability to channel their rage (berserk) to have a chance against these sorts of things they have evolved to survive against.

So Wookie's are the over 2 meter tall increadibly strong, vicious but surprisingly well skilled/disciplined aliens that think like the little guy, are used to fighting things way bigger than they are. They are actually quite fast, and combined with a sense of honor, strange personal codes and a tendancy to use their anger in situations that threaten their survival, tends to make bad situations worse. Not the kind of race you want to see in a barfight.

Also according to the novels, Chewbacca and Han Solo Had gotten into more than their fair share of scrapes, situations and fights, usually getting out of them by a combination of cunning, deceit, distraction and when neccessary brute strength, Han was a pretty scrappy guy with a millitary background, Chewbacca was a hero of his people reknowned for his strength and skill as a hunter and a warrior (so yeah he's tough even for a Wookie)

That being said Going down the list

#1 The Barroom brawl: Have to give this to Han and Chewbacca, they've been in these sort of things so much it's routine, though frankly with no reason to go after their opposites directly, it would be a mater of them slipping out in practiced fashion while the still quite capable Firefly crew involved would take a bit longer to extricate themeselves with little problem. If it came to a fight in semi direct fashion, Han could hold his own against any one of them, and Chewbacca in a fistfight is a verifyable nightmare, short of advanced weaponry in the hands of the opposition (blasters/guns), he could clean out the whole bar himself.

Point: Solo

#2 Solo was as has been pointed out a successful smuggler, Malcolm was a down on his luck trader. Most smuggling run cargoes tend to be small and valuable, making the extra capacity of the Serenity moot. The Falcon was built for smuggling, the Serenity was built to be a reliable cargo ship.

Point: Solo

#3 Maintanance goes to the ship with the bigger ship with easy to access equipment and a dedicated mechanic. The Falcon is the very definition of a Hanger Queen. It takes a lot more work to keep all those hotshot engines and weapons going, something that ate at Solo's funds continously through his career. It also seems you can't repair the Falcon without going through crawlways and hard to reach nooks, making it challenging just to switch out a component. Also note that the Falcon was literally such a mismatch of parts that were never meant to work with each other in the first place, and it takes considerable tinkering just for basic functionality.

Point: Reynolds

#4 Solo Shot First. Reynolds is basically a nice guy, Solo is a scoundrel, albeit one with a heart. Solo doesn't think of himself as the good guy, Reynolds tries to do the right thing and accepts his right/wrong dynamic where Solo fights his.

Point: Reynolds

#5 This is something Solo has some history with, without him frozen in Carbonite though, escape is almost a certainty. Reynolds however is also quite resourceful and a bit more hardcore, if less sneaky. Both would I feel make it out in relative short order given the least chance. With their respective crews coming to the rescue it would be that much more certain. Also as either would let the other out as part of their own escape plan... it would really depend on such specifics that it's impossible to call.

Point: Both

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 05:59 AM

#2 Solo was as has been pointed out a successful smuggler, Malcolm was a down on his luck trader. Most smuggling run cargoes tend to be small and valuable, making the extra capacity of the Serenity moot. The Falcon was built for smuggling, the Serenity was built to be a reliable cargo ship.

Point: Solo

That is debatable the falcon was designed for other uses and converted to a smuggling ship just like the firefly. Indeed the firefly class ship is reported to be a common smuggling ship due to all those nooks and crannies which allow for things to be hidden. Also Malcolm wasn't a trader he was an ex rebel who will do nearly anything to keep his ship flying including smuggling and indeed he has some contacts with normal smugglers (see trash for what I mean) and does it on occasion.

Add to that the fact that Han is relatively known so should the fleet see him he will have to fight his way out or run. Add to that the fact that the Falcon is recognizable due to its modifications (and its apparent ability to do the kessel run) so anyone who sees the ship will know its up to no good.

The firefly on the other hand is a general cargo ship with little to no modification and therefore unrecognizable. Indeed Mal is very good at throwing suspicion off his ship when dealing with the alliance. So I would say he would be much better at slipping by unnoticed or lying to get out of trouble should they get caught.

I would say they are about even if we ignore the fact that the falcon is way way faster. Though with assumed upgrade it the falcon would only have a slight edge with speed because presumably firefly class ships would have a FTL speed of a normal transport (the falcon was a transport with a lot of upgrades)

So I would argue this goes to Mal due to his ability throw suspicion oh him and his crew/ship

Dervag

2009-12-14, 09:27 AM

I would say they are about even if we ignore the fact that the falcon is way way faster. Though with assumed upgrade it the falcon would only have a slight edge with speed because presumably firefly class ships would have a FTL speed of a normal transport (the falcon was a transport with a lot of upgrades)Yes, but one of those upgrades was a massively superior drive, to the point where the Falcon can reliably outrun Imperial Star Destroyers, which are supposed to be pretty fast (yes, they're big; size does not automatically mean low speed). Many of the Falcon's problems hinge on the fact that its drive is bleeding-edge technology, too advanced to be user-friendly.

That's going to make a pretty significant difference over the long haul, both in terms of being able to make more runs and in terms of the ability to escape trouble. But my impression is that the Falcon is, by freighter standards, much faster than normal, maybe even twice as fast.

So I would argue this goes to Mal due to his ability throw suspicion oh him and his crew/ship"off" him?

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 09:42 AM

Yes, but one of those upgrades was a massively superior drive, to the point where the Falcon can reliably outrun Imperial Star Destroyers, which are supposed to be pretty fast (yes, they're big; size does not automatically mean low speed). Many of the Falcon's problems hinge on the fact that its drive is bleeding-edge technology, too advanced to be user-friendly.

That's going to make a pretty significant difference over the long haul, both in terms of being able to make more runs and in terms of the ability to escape trouble. But my impression is that the Falcon is, by freighter standards, much faster than normal, maybe even twice as fast.

True I will give you that however at that point it comes down to reputation and after the first run (should he make it successfully) there is bound to be imperial patrols/bounty hunters waiting for him causing issues for a smooth transaction.

"off" him?
doh thats what I meant

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 11:09 AM

True I will give you that however at that point it comes down to reputation and after the first run (should he make it successfully) there is bound to be imperial patrols/bounty hunters waiting for him causing issues for a smooth transaction.Well first of all, Han's not that famous at this point, being as it is between episodes IV and V. He's a known associate of the Rebellion, but then so are literally billions of sentients around the galaxy; it's highly unlikely that an Alliancimperial picket ship which doesn't have prior experience with him is going to recognize his ship, especially when YT-1300s are supposed to be almost as common in the Star Wars universe as Firefly-class ships are in the Firefly universe. The possibility exists, but then, Mal's had his fair share of troubles against the Alliance and the Serenity could be recognized itself, so I wouldn't really say Han's got a disadvantage here.

Secondly, if he makes the run well enough, why would anyone but his employers and the people he's delivering it to know what's going on? He probably could make the run flying right past an interdictor and thumbing his nose at them, but the far more likely course of action is to do so without being seen.

Third, Mal is far more likely to piss off his employers with his attitude, or simply be betrayed by them on principle, as happened at least twice in the run of the series. Han's just fine dealing with criminals and acting like one of them (except for slavers, but he wouldn't accept a job running slaves to begin with), even if his own morals conflict; Mal's viewed as arrogant, naive and holier-than-thou, even though his reputation is mostly "solid." So I'd say it's far more likely that someone would tip off the feds about Mal than about Han.

And, of course, there's Dervag's point about the Falcon's speed, which really can't be stressed enough. The Serenity putters along at Yugo pace; the Falcon is the souped up Charger flashing by in the left lane so fast you didn't even get a good look at it. It's as fast in sublight as just about everything except A-Wings and TIE Interceptors, and at lightspeed it's faster than pretty much anything else out there at this time. Han's canny enough to conceal the ship's capabilities when he's being observed, but when he's not, or if his cover's blown, he's perfectly capable of leaving pursuers in the dust, which the Serenity is really not.

Sholos

2009-12-14, 11:31 AM

I would say they are about even if we ignore the fact that the falcon is way way faster. Though with assumed upgrade it the falcon would only have a slight edge with speed because presumably firefly class ships would have a FTL speed of a normal transport (the falcon was a transport with a lot of upgrades)

Ignoring the fact that it's still not an even competition, we aren't ignoring the fact that the Falcon is much, much faster. It's kind of one of the major arguments in Han's favor. Also, even with the tech parity given to Serenity, she'll only be about average in capability. The Falcon is the fastest thing in the Star Wars universe at light speed, and she's pretty fast at sublight as well. Not to mention her ability to actually fight her way out of a bad situation.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 12:06 PM

Han's canny enough to conceal the ship's capabilities when he's being observed, but when he's not, or if his cover's blown, he's perfectly capable of leaving pursuers in the dust, which the Serenity is really not.

Because we never see them doing that in the show. Ever. :smalltongue:

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 12:10 PM

Ignoring the fact that it's still not an even competition, we aren't ignoring the fact that the Falcon is much, much faster. It's kind of one of the major arguments in Han's favor. Also, even with the tech parity given to Serenity, she'll only be about average in capability. The Falcon is the fastest thing in the Star Wars universe at light speed, and she's pretty fast at sublight as well. Not to mention her ability to actually fight her way out of a bad situation.

We also seem to be ignoring the vastly increased cargo carrying capability of Serenity vis a vis the Falcon. Han might be able to make a run faster, but he can't carry as much per run. That's gonna close off a lot of options to Han.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 12:14 PM

We also seem to be ignoring the vastly increased cargo carrying capability of Serenity vis a vis the Falcon. Han might be able to make a run faster, but he can't carry as much per run. That's gonna close off a lot of options to Han.

I think this is also something that should be addressed as some things that are smuggled are not small (see the cows mal and crew had to smuggle)

Sholos

2009-12-14, 12:19 PM

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 12:24 PM

The more valuable things that you'd get payed a lot for smuggling around tend to be smaller, so I don't think that's a problem. Now, if the question was, "Who could make more potential money per trip?", then I'd say Mal; but what was being questioned was overall performance, which has to go to the one that has actually been a highly successful smuggler under a much more restrictive government.

From what it seems (and I will admit I do not have much knowledge outside the movies) most his smuggling was done on the rim were the empire isn't as powerful or influential. Note I am basing this off of the fact that his debt (due to a failed smuggling op if I am not mistaken) is to jabba who is based on a planet on the rim.

Where as Mal and the like run into plenty of Alliance vessels regularly and have to plot ridiculous out of the way trips to avoid them (see out of gas) And whenever they are caught with salvaged goods the gov quickly takes it back

So I don't know if you can really say that the empire is more restrictive (at least as far as what Han deals with)

I'm trying to think of any time Serenity outright outruns her pursuers. I can't think of a single time.

Episode 1 the out think and thus outrun the cruiser which catches them pulling illegal salvage.

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 12:27 PM

Because we never see them doing that in the show. Ever. :smalltongue:Er ... we don't. We see them outfly a Reaver ship in the pilot (which was AWESOME, btw), but otherwise their ship is average and acts like it's average. When the Alliance agent is after them in "Message", the only reason they're not dead is because the agent wants their cargo intact, and the only reason they manage to give him the slip is because there's conveniently placed canyons around and Firefly sensors aren't as advanced as Star Wars sensors. And they were still trapped even if the guy couldn't see them; they weren't going anywhere without going past him.

From what it seems (and I will admit I do not have much knowledge outside the movies) most his smuggling was done on the rim were the empire isn't as powerful or influential. Note I am basing this off of the fact that his debt (due to a failed smuggling op if I am not mistaken) is to jabba who is based on a planet on the rim.
Where as Mal and the like run into plenty of Alliance vessels regularly and have to plot ridiculous out of the way trips to avoid them (see out of gas) And whenever they are caught with salvaged goods the gov quickly takes it back
So I don't know if you can really say that the empire is more restrictive (at least as far as what Han deals with)The Empire at its lower influence in the Rim is still nothing to sneer at; it's got a far tighter grip on its rim systems than the Alliance does, certainly. And Han has run things clear across the galaxy before, although of course none of this happens onscreen so if we're only going by the movies I can't really bring that up.

Han's debt to Jabba is from him being forced to jettison a load of spice when he'd been ratted out to an Imperial patrol, and then being unable to find it when he returned for it. This is basically his one mistake in years of working for Jabba (and other, lesser crime lords); it's just that they tend to be unforgiving.

Episode 1 the out think and thus outrun the cruiser which catches them pulling illegal salvage.Oh, right, forgot about that. But they didn't outrun it, and it's heavily implied they couldn't have if they hadn't had the crybaby set up. Plus, the crybaby isn't really something you can deploy on a smuggling run as opposed to a salvage run, given that it takes setting up first in the area that's already being patrolled.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 12:29 PM

Er ... we don't. We see them outfly a Reaver ship in the pilot (which was AWESOME, btw), but otherwise their ship is average and acts like it's average. When the Alliance agent is after them in "Message", the only reason they're not dead is because the agent wants their cargo intact, and the only reason they manage to give him the slip is because there's conveniently placed canyons around and Firefly sensors aren't as advanced as Star Wars sensors. And they were still trapped even if the guy couldn't see them; they weren't going anywhere without going past him.

But it still happened. I'm not calling the Serenity a super-ship, but she's got some evasion in her.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 12:30 PM

The more valuable things that you'd get payed a lot for smuggling around tend to be smaller, so I don't think that's a problem. Now, if the question was, "Who could make more potential money per trip?", then I'd say Mal; but what was being questioned was overall performance, which has to go to the one that has actually been a highly successful smuggler under a much more restrictive government.
How do you measure overall performance if not through ability to make money? I mean this is a commercial enterprise we're talking about here. A mostly illegal one to be sure, but a commercial operation nonetheless.

That honestly depends on what's being run, and there's lots of big, legit cargo that needs to be moved. Even if the price per unit mass is lower, there's a good chance that Serenity could make it up simply on volume.

Also note that at least to the best of my understanding, the only jobs Mal and co. have failed to complete are those they chose not to finish for moral reasons (see: the Train Job). Their methods might be a bit...unconventional, but they certainly work. Han straight up admits to ditching cargo. I'm not sure how failing to complete and getting a major crimelord up in your business is a better record of success than Mal's.

Solaris

2009-12-14, 12:36 PM

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 12:41 PM

But it still happened. I'm not calling the Serenity a super-ship, but she's got some evasion in her.It was also a ship in poor repair piloted by blood-crazed lunatics that they evaded. And the presence of tractor beams on relatively small ships in the Star Wars setting makes that particular maneuver highly unlikely to work.

I'm not saying the Serenity is utterly useless, but to say it's in any way comparable to the Falcon in terms of outrunning or fighting is ludicrous. Heck, we see Han pull the exact same direction-changing maneuver in ESB when he changes direction to charge the Star Destroyer, in about the same amount of time and with far less hassle (and going at much faster speeds). The Serenity's maneuver there was impressive precisely because it was performed on a ship that wasn't very maneuverable; the Falcon is as nimble as a starfighter and does stuff like that all the time.

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 12:52 PM

How do you measure overall performance if not through ability to make money? I mean this is a commercial enterprise we're talking about here. A mostly illegal one to be sure, but a commercial operation nonetheless.

That honestly depends on what's being run, and there's lots of big, legit cargo that needs to be moved. Even if the price per unit mass is lower, there's a good chance that Serenity could make it up simply on volume. There's ... really no chance. Mal's runs are generally made for subsistence funds; Han's runs are made for rather large profits, much of which goes into further upgrading his ship and some of which goes into actual savings. If they were carrying their normal loads appropriate to their past history, Han would make enough money to buy their ship in one run, while Mal would barely make enough to feed his crew and keep his boat in the air.

Legit cargo is easy to move, and thus doesn't pay anywhere near as much. Contraband pays a fortune; it's just that the risk is astronomically higher, so much of the money a successful smuggler makes is sunk into bribes and his ship (if he's intelligent, of course).

Also note that at least to the best of my understanding, the only jobs Mal and co. have failed to complete are those they chose not to finish for moral reasons (see: the Train Job). Their methods might be a bit...unconventional, but they certainly work. Han straight up admits to ditching cargo. I'm not sure how failing to complete and getting a major crimelord up in your business is a better record of success than Mal's.And the only job that Han Solo failed to complete was one in which he was ratted out and was forced to jettison a shipment of spice that was worth more than an entire city on many planets. Mal runs any cargo he can get work for, and gets shafted more often than not when he does; Han runs dangerous cargo and is known for getting the job done.

Zen Monkey

2009-12-14, 01:04 PM

Dervag

2009-12-14, 02:07 PM

And, of course, there's Dervag's point about the Falcon's speed, which really can't be stressed enough. The Serenity putters along at Yugo pace; the Falcon is the souped up Charger flashing by in the left lane so fast you didn't even get a good look at it.Well... not Yugo pace, necessarily, but definitely not fast.

Because we never see them doing that in the show. Ever. :smalltongue:Oh, they escape enemies, but they don't normally outpace active pursuit, with the notable exception of the Reaver fleet in the movies. Normally they just get the hell out of Dodge and whoever was mad at them doesn't try to follow.

We also seem to be ignoring the vastly increased cargo carrying capability of Serenity vis a vis the Falcon. Han might be able to make a run faster, but he can't carry as much per run. That's gonna close off a lot of options to Han.On the other hand, to carry more than the Falcon could, Mal will have to stash the contraband in the cargo bay, not in the secret compartments. Which greatly increases the risk that he'll get caught smuggling the goods; he won't be able to bareface his way through a search the way he did in a few of the TV episodes.

The Empire at its lower influence in the Rim is still nothing to sneer at; it's got a far tighter grip on its rim systems than the Alliance does, certainly. And Han has run things clear across the galaxy before, although of course none of this happens onscreen so if we're only going by the movies I can't really bring that up.You can; it's relevant. While Han's basic nature as a man is established in the movies, we can't say much about his smuggling abilities without going outside them, because he never actually smuggles anything in the movies. All we know from that is that he's got the equipment, claims to be able to do it, and botched at least one job.

How do you measure overall performance if not through ability to make money? I mean this is a commercial enterprise we're talking about here. A mostly illegal one to be sure, but a commercial operation nonetheless.The catches are as follows:
-The Falcon can make more runs over a given distance in a given length of time, because it is faster.
-The Falcon is more likely to escape an attempt to intercept it, because it is faster, better armed, and probably tougher (for its weight, anyway). Therefore it can afford to take more chances with the Imperials and worry less about evasive routing... which would cost Serenity even more time.

The converse issues:
-Serenity does have more visible room for cargo, so Mal can carry more if he doesn't restrict himself to the special compartments.
-The Falcon is a more infamous ship, having shot its way out of the Death Star and been involved directly in its destruction. Han Solo is remembered as the man who shot down Darth Vader, by Vader if not by anyone else. Its special modifications make it more visible, too. Therefore, Han will have a harder time bluffing his way past naval patrols, so he'd darn well better be able to outmaneuver them.
______

A lot of Han's advantages seem to be that his friends include a monster and a wizard (essentially).I set up the scenario so that Luke's Force powers would not make much difference; this is before he gets Jedi training from Yoda. Minor telekinesis of kilogram-weight objects might be within his reach, and using the Force for optimal timing of a torpedo shot is, but that's about it.

As for Chewie, he's individually stronger, more dangerous in melee combat, and possibly more versatile than any of Serenity's crew... but that crew contains nine people, three or four of whom are dangerous in a fight by any normal human standards, and one of whom is a mechanic implied to be worthy of legend. They have a considerable advantage of numbers and specialization.

Also note that I did not include Luke or Book in the bar fight scenario. This was for a reason. Book is philosophically opposed to violence even if he's good at it. Luke's effectiveness in a bar fight is debatable, because it depends almost entirely on the level of his Jedi training, just as River's effectiveness depends almost entirely on whether her combat conditioning has been triggered.

Reverent-One

2009-12-14, 02:09 PM

A lot of Han's advantages seem to be that his friends include a monster and a wizard (essentially). These things don't exist in the Firefly universe, so you either need to turn Chewbacca into a muscular human and Luke into some guy with a sword, or you have to upgrade Book to jedi status and make Jayne a wookie. The answers change a bit if you make these switches, but if you don't then it's an apples/oranges comparison. I don't see Han winning the bar fight so clearly if Jayne and Chewbacca are built by the same rule set and Luke loses his powers against Book (or Zoe, or whomever).

Is Chewbacca an exceptional wookie, or just normal for his kind? When the racial advantage over humanity isn't present, would he be better than average as a bar fighter and mechanic? Is Luke an exceptional jedi (he actually seems to be the worse one that he ever meets)? Give Book (an operative) magic powers and I think he'd turn into Mace Windu, who could cause some trouble for Han and company.

First off, Luke's jedi abilties really aren't coming into the equation here. At this point of time in the star wars universe that we're taking Han and friends from, Luke hasn't had any real training and thus his jedi abilties give him the ability to make some lucky shots and talk with the dead, about on the level of River's power to know lots of stuff and shoot at people without looking periodically.

As for Chewie, he actually is exceptional for a wookie, considered one of their greatest heroes. And while Chewie being a wookie is a great advantage, turn him into a normal human (or one of the Serenity crew into a wookie), and Mal begins to win solely on account of numbers, having a much larger crew.

EDIT: and Ninja'd.

Keshay

2009-12-14, 03:08 PM

IIRC, the YT-1300 is listed as having a cargo capacity of 100 tons, while the Firefly-class only has about 82 tons. The Firefly-class definitely wins on passenger capacity, having about triple the YT-1300's.

When it comes to the relative carrying capacities of the ships, I think we need to give the Serenity a boost based on the technology parity invoked in the rules of the thread.

The Serenity is a much larger ship, with a great deal more interior space. I'm pretty sure the Falcon's increased capacity is due to the fact it has anti-gravity technology available. As originally portrayed, the Serenity has no such capability, and still has a comparable carrying capacity.

It would have been nice to have a "cargo volume capacity" provided, then, we'd really know. But lacking that, we have to go by the exterior dimensions, and what we've actually seen. We've see then spacous cargo hold of the Serenity, and its huge. I'm really not certain where the cargo goes in the Millenium Falcon since we never see them loading/unloading anythign larger than a couple steamer chests. I guess the cargo holds are accessable from underneith, like when we saw Han loading up his reward towards the end of ANH. It didn't strike me as particularly spacous though.

Brother Oni

2009-12-14, 03:27 PM

BRC

2009-12-14, 03:33 PM

When it comes to the relative carrying capacities of the ships, I think we need to give the Serenity a boost based on the technology parity invoked in the rules of the thread.

The Serenity is a much larger ship, with a great deal more interior space. I'm pretty sure the Falcon's increased capacity is due to the fact it has anti-gravity technology available. As originally portrayed, the Serenity has no such capability, and still has a comparable carrying capacity.

It would have been nice to have a "cargo volume capacity" provided, then, we'd really know. But lacking that, we have to go by the exterior dimensions, and what we've actually seen. We've see then spacous cargo hold of the Serenity, and its huge. I'm really not certain where the cargo goes in the Millenium Falcon since we never see them loading/unloading anythign larger than a couple steamer chests. I guess the cargo holds are accessable from underneith, like when we saw Han loading up his reward towards the end of ANH. It didn't strike me as particularly spacous though.

Considering they use weight instead of volume, I'm tempted to believe the Falcon's increased cargo capacity is less "How much can we fit in this ship" and more "How much can we weigh the ship down and still get off a planet with X gravity". Unless All cargo is exactly the same weight, you would need to factor in both Mass and Volume for the carrying capacity of the ship. The Falcon has more powerful engines, meaning it can carry more weight and still get off planet, the Serenity however could probably carry a much larger volume of low-weight cargo.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 03:42 PM

Dienekes

2009-12-14, 04:05 PM

Edit2: Also why is Jane continuously brought up as their best fighter? I would say Mal and Zoe are on par if not better skill wise and Jane only outclasses them with strength. Indeed on a couple of occasions Zoe threatens Jane and he takes her seriously (well at least as serious as jane gets)

Simply because in most scenes involving barroom brawls Mal get's outclassed by Jayne (The one where they're talking about slavery beforehand and the one on Unification Day). Plus on the latter Mal get's thrown out of the bar, Zoe comes out fighting hard but obviously straining, and Jayne exits fighting 3 at once and seems to be doing ok.

Judging from the scene it would appear best brawler would be Jayne> Zoe> Mal.

Dervag

2009-12-14, 05:09 PM

I know it isn't part of the challenge, but somebody mentioned River's close combat ability for the bar fight. There's a reason why she has her own mention under the tvtrope page Waif Fu, as somebody of her size and musculature would only be effective in the movies and on TV.Unless, of course, some of the weird stuff they did to her involved some sort of bioenhancement effect... which would be logical, but which never came up in the story and can thus be safely dismissed if you choose to do so.

Against a wookie with non-human anatomy which renders some of her techniques useless (do wookies have a solar plexus?), plus the massive size, strength, weight and reach advantage, my money's on the furry one. In any case, does Chewbacca still have his claws?By custom Wookiees do not use claws in hand to hand combat, even when it's pretty important.

Considering they use weight instead of volume, I'm tempted to believe the Falcon's increased cargo capacity is less "How much can we fit in this ship" and more "How much can we weigh the ship down and still get off a planet with X gravity". Unless All cargo is exactly the same weight, you would need to factor in both Mass and Volume for the carrying capacity of the ship. The Falcon has more powerful engines, meaning it can carry more weight and still get off planet, the Serenity however could probably carry a much larger volume of low-weight cargo.Given that a herd of cattle count as "low weight," and that I was talking about biological materials, it's a safe bet that Serenity's superior volume is more important than the Falcon's superior tonnage.

I don't think that is Quite accurate. Admittedly a couple of her opponents do flip a few to many times before hitting the ground however her moves consist of leverage based attacks taking advantage of vulnerable joints and kicking people in the head which tends to throw anybody off balance.Yes. Head-kicks seem to be her favored attack, and that's one of the few ways that someone in her weight class could plausibly take down larger opponents on a regular basis.

WARNING: Take following with grain of salt!
The improbability comes from the fact that kicks like that are likely to be relatively slow and are likely to unbalance the kicker if they're blocked...
end of salt

...and that's where the mind reading and hyped up situational awareness comes in. She knows when she's got a safe second to deliver a kick to the head without being stopped.

Edit2: Also why is Jane continuously brought up as their best fighter? I would say Mal and Zoe are on par if not better skill wise and Jane only outclasses them with strength. Indeed on a couple of occasions Zoe threatens Jane and he takes her seriously (well at least as serious as jane gets)Jayne with a y... he's treated as their best fighter in unarmed combat. In a gunfight, Zoe is very dangerous too, and some of the occasions when Zoe threatens Jayne take place when she has a gun pointed at him, at which point anyone sane takes anyone seriously. But in unarmed combat, he's got enough strength rough-and-tumble skill that no one is at all likely to beat him in a brawl. An opponent with formalized martial arts training and considerable strength could probably take him down... but an opponent like that beats Mal too (look at how outclassed he is against the Operative), and would probably beat Zoe as well.

While Jayne was out learning to hit people with a bar stool, Mal and Zoe were on the front lines of a shooting war. So they're better (or as good) at shooting... but he's better with a bar stool.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 05:22 PM

Jayne with a y... he's treated as their best fighter in unarmed combat. In a gunfight, Zoe is very dangerous too, and some of the occasions when Zoe threatens Jayne take place when she has a gun pointed at him, at which point anyone sane takes anyone seriously. But in unarmed combat, he's got enough strength rough-and-tumble skill that no one is at all likely to beat him in a brawl. An opponent with formalized martial arts training and considerable strength could probably take him down... but an opponent like that beats Mal too (look at how outclassed he is against the Operative), and would probably beat Zoe as well.

Although to be fair, Mal did beat the Operative the second time around. Granted, he got kinda lucky, but he's no pushover.

While Jayne was out learning to hit people with a bar stool, Mal and Zoe were on the front lines of a shooting war. So they're better (or as good) at shooting... but he's better with a bar stool.
Although in Our Mrs. Reynolds, Jayne was the one who got tasked with shooting out the electro net thingy, which he managed to do with one shot despite not actually being able to use the sights. That's some pretty impressive shooting there. That he then managed to shift targets and put another two or three rounds through a relatively small window takes it to really impressive.

BRC

2009-12-14, 05:31 PM

\
Although in Our Mrs. Reynolds, Jayne was the one who got tasked with shooting out the electro net thingy, which he managed to do with one shot despite not actually being able to use the sights. That's some pretty impressive shooting there. That he then managed to shift targets and put another two or three rounds through a relatively small window takes it to really impressive.

That was probably because Jayne is better at using heavier weapons (Like Vera), and probably wouldn't have let anybody else touch Vera anyway. Zoe is definitely the better gunfighter, but her area of expertise is in using certain types of weapons really really well.
Jayne, being a merc and the type of guy to really like big guns, is probably more familiar with a wider variety of weapons, especially heavier ones.

Mind you, I think alot of Zoe's expertise is also in tactics and keeping a clear head under fire. To use DnD Terms, Zoe's a rogue, Jayne's a barbarian.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 05:35 PM

That was probably because Jayne is better at using heavier weapons (Like Vera), and probably wouldn't have let anybody else touch Vera anyway. Zoe is definitely the better gunfighter, but her area of expertise is in using certain types of weapons really really well.
Jayne, being a merc and the type of guy to really like big guns, is probably more familiar with a wider variety of weapons, especially heavier ones.

Mind you, I think alot of Zoe's expertise is also in tactics and keeping a clear head under fire. To use DnD Terms, Zoe's a rogue, Jayne's a barbarian.

Zoe uses shotguns presumably firing buckshot. The entire point of such a weapon is that you don't need to be particularly accurate, since even at close ranges you're essentially firing a bullet six inches across. Jayne is a noticeably good shot throughout the series-note his sniping in the first episode- and uses weapons that actually demand accuracy quite efficiently. There's little question that Zoe is a better soldier than Jayne, but in terms of accurate shooting, I'd give it to Jayne any day.

BRC

2009-12-14, 05:42 PM

Zoe uses shotguns presumably firing buckshot. The entire point of such a weapon is that you don't need to be particularly accurate, since even at close ranges you're essentially firing a bullet six inches across. Jayne is a noticeably good shot throughout the series-note his sniping in the first episode- and uses weapons that actually demand accuracy quite efficiently. There's little question that Zoe is a better soldier than Jayne, but in terms of accurate shooting, I'd give it to Jayne any day.

Zoe's choice of weapon fits with her character. Most of the people she's fighting arn't wearing much armor, and even if buckshot dosn't kill, it certainly will wound enough to put them out of the fight (getting shot HURTS, even if you're technically still conscious, you won't be able to focus on fighting once your hit). And since most of the fights they run into seem to be at decently short ranges, Zoe uses a weapon that maximizes her chances to take somebody out of the fight with each shot.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 07:07 PM

Zoe's choice of weapon fits with her character. Most of the people she's fighting arn't wearing much armor, and even if buckshot dosn't kill, it certainly will wound enough to put them out of the fight (getting shot HURTS, even if you're technically still conscious, you won't be able to focus on fighting once your hit). And since most of the fights they run into seem to be at decently short ranges, Zoe uses a weapon that maximizes her chances to take somebody out of the fight with each shot.

Oh it makes perfect sense-at least one study has shown shotguns to be the most effective small arm for close combat- and I don't think I ever said it didn't. It's just not proof of being a particularly good shot.

Look at it this way, if you're standing a dozen yards from Zoe you're about as screwed as you'd be twenty yards from Jayne. But at two hundred yards Zoe would be pretty much harmless, and Jayne would put a high caliber round through your center of mass.

BRC

2009-12-14, 07:43 PM

Oh it makes perfect sense-at least one study has shown shotguns to be the most effective small arm for close combat- and I don't think I ever said it didn't. It's just not proof of being a particularly good shot.

Look at it this way, if you're standing a dozen yards from Zoe you're about as screwed as you'd be twenty yards from Jayne. But at two hundred yards Zoe would be pretty much harmless, and Jayne would put a high caliber round through your center of mass.
True. So we really don't know how good of a shot she is. Her character and background imply she should be a very, very good shot, probably better than Jayne (She seems like the type to spend alot of time practicing accuracy, and her background as a soldier means she's probably seen more, and tougher combat than Jayne), but that's all conjecture. We really don't know how good a shot she is. I think we can assume an above-average level of competence, but beyond that it's all guesswork.

Connington

2009-12-14, 07:45 PM

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 08:05 PM

Keep in mind, it was also Jayne who did the sharpshooting in the pilot, although that was probably in part because Patience would have gotten suspicious if Mal took someone besides Zoe along with him on a deal.

A very good point.

What evidence we have certainly suggests that Jayne works best with his fists and very, very large guns. Zoe seems to be more of all-rounder, and has the most experience with things like stealth and other soldierly arts. And lest we forget, Mal's probably the handiest with a pistol, and certainly fastest on the draw.
I'd disagree with this. The only weapons we ever really see Zoe use are her Mare's Leg (which may be a shotgun), what is most definitely a shotgun, and I think some handguns when she rescues Mal.

Jayne uses handguns, submachine guns/machine pistols, Vera, a sniper rifle, and what looks like some sort of freaky-ass machine gun thing against the Reavers in the movie. He's also got what I'll bet is the largest gun collection on the ship, including what looks like some sort of break open grenade launcher (seen during the pilot).

Oh, and while it never came up, once we start getting into machine guns and cannons, Jayne, having no professional military experience, would probably get left in the dust.
Again, Jayne is the only character we see fire anything that resembles a machine gun. In fact given the blue lights on his big ass machine gun thing, it's probably a Newtech gun, and significantly more advanced than the stuff the rest of the crew uses.

Mal's the only one (besides Book) who uses an honest to gods cannon though, so it's hard to say.

Remember Mal and Zoe fought for a cause because they had a moral stance. Jayne fights because it's what he does. Really, of the three, Jayne's the professional, even if he's got less formal training.

Hadessniper

2009-12-14, 08:21 PM

The browncoats were never shown to be a very unified army. They were the definition of a home grown militia rising to fight off invaders. Mal and Zoe almost certainly had little in way of training at the start of the war. They probably got a very condensed version of basic boot camp and then were thrown into the war to sink or swim. Where as Jayne has shown considerable personal interest in fighting and weapons.

So I would say Mal and Zoe probably have more real combat experience and Jayne has more training, as he spends most of his personal time exercising or with a weapon in his hands.

Jallorn

2009-12-14, 08:30 PM

Event #1: Barroom Brawl
In a straight brawl, Chewie is a big advantage, but then Han isn't as strong as Mal or Zoe, and I think Jayne could survive against Chewie for a bit. Of course Chewie would be even more dangerous once Han was incapacitated, so I think the balance is tipped slightly in Han and Chewie's favor.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
As has been previously stated, Mal's luck is much worse than Han's so I think Han wins here.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance
Absolutely goes to Serenity and her crew. Although only Kaylee has more skill than Han and Chewie, she is really that much better, sensing problems before they happen. Also, Wash and Book both have some skill, skill that can be directed by Kaylee, increasing the amount of work they can accomplish.

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Mal and his crew are more dangerous than Han and Chewie. They've got less glory and more blood. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne are better shots and more numerous than Han and Chewie. Even if Luke and Leia are with them, they don't have the skills to match Mal's crew, plus Vera is better than any weapon Han and Chewie have. On the other hand, Han and Chewie are more likely to ask for next to nothing, mostly because Chewie mostly does what Han thinks is best, while Mal's crew would argue. Kaylee, Sheppard, and Simon do provide technical, medical, and spiritual abilities that are useful though.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord
If the crews couldn't get to them, advantage goes to the much tougher Mal, who is also a stronger leader, but Han has a more organized crew, so that advantage goes to them.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-14, 08:42 PM

On the other hand, Han and Chewie are more likely to ask for next to nothing

Mal and company saved a town in return for a rainstick and some ferrets.

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 08:53 PM

Event #4: Knight Errantry
Mal and his crew are more dangerous than Han and Chewie. They've got less glory and more blood. Mal, Zoe, and Jayne are better shots and more numerous than Han and Chewie. Even if Luke and Leia are with them, they don't have the skills to match Mal's crew, plus Vera is better than any weapon Han and Chewie have. On the other hand, Han and Chewie are more likely to ask for next to nothing, mostly because Chewie mostly does what Han thinks is best, while Mal's crew would argue. Kaylee, Sheppard, and Simon do provide technical, medical, and spiritual abilities that are useful though.I've got to say, I disagree with almost everything you say here :smallfrown:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "less glory and more blood," so I'll leave that one alone, but better shots? Not likely, especially taking into consideration EU sources. Even w/o those, Han was able to hit a half-foot wide tentacle several yards away while nearly blind, and I really can't remember a time in the movies that he's ever missed, even with his pistol at relatively long range (on Endor). Chewie, again, is a crack shot himself, as evidenced by the break-in at the Death Star detention block, and his bowcaster is perfectly capable of medium-to-long-range sniping. Also, Vera being a better weapon? Blasters vaporize durasteel and blow body-sized chunks out of concrete; what criteria are you using here?

In addition to that, the Falcon is a greater asset in such a fight than pretty much anything Mal's crew brings to the table, since it's quite possible it would remove the need for a shootout at all with its sensors and weaponry. Even if you accept that they can't match Mal and crew's "skills", the Falcon makes it academic.

And on asking for a reward, I also disagree; this being the space between Episode IV and V, Han needs money to pay of Jabba, so even if he wouldn't normally ask for a reward (and I think he probably would, although definitely not an extortionate amount), he's pretty likely to now.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 09:30 PM

I've got to say, I disagree with almost everything you say here :smallfrown:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "less glory and more blood," so I'll leave that one alone, but better shots? Not likely, especially taking into consideration EU sources. Even w/o those, Han was able to hit a half-foot wide tentacle several yards away while nearly blind, and I really can't remember a time in the movies that he's ever missed, even with his pistol at relatively long range (on Endor). Chewie, again, is a crack shot himself, as evidenced by the break-in at the Death Star detention block, and his bowcaster is perfectly capable of medium-to-long-range sniping. Also, Vera being a better weapon? Blasters vaporize durasteel and blow body-sized chunks out of concrete; what criteria are you using here?

Blasters blow chunks out of concrete, but I hardly recall the handheld variety removing body sized pieces thereof. Bullets incidentally put plenty large holes in concrete as well. Vera's also got a flash suppressor/silencer*, ACOG-like sight, what looks like a picatinny rail for a night sight on front of that, likely selective fire capability, and almost certainly the ability to fire a fair variety of ammo types such as tracer, ball, AP, or if you've got the money, incendiary. Han's got a very powerful handgun, and Chewie something that takes egregious amounts of time to reload. Vera, or assault rifles in general, are adaptable, versatile weapons capable of rapid shooting over a variety of ranges against most human targets.

*Which is actually a fairly large advantage. Blasters are both loud and make a lot of light. Your first shot might be from stealth, but the second probably won't be. Vera can operate without giving her user's location away to everybody within half a mile.

In addition to that, the Falcon is a greater asset in such a fight than pretty much anything Mal's crew brings to the table, since it's quite possible it would remove the need for a shootout at all with its sensors and weaponry. Even if you accept that they can't match Mal and crew's "skills", the Falcon makes it academic.
Assuming the attacker has no AA capability then yes so long as you have the room to spray away with high powered cannons. But c'mon, even Shepard Book's colony has a freaking AA gun, and it's not like missile launchers are particularly rare in Star Wars either.

Don Julio Anejo

2009-12-14, 09:44 PM

Also, Vera being a better weapon? Blasters vaporize durasteel and blow body-sized chunks out of concrete; what criteria are you using here?
Well, given that Dervag established this happens in the Star Wars universe, it's safe to assume that Vera is a souped up Mazeratti blaster rifle running on nitrous compared to 20 year old Ford pickup trucks everyone else seems to be using as weapons.

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 09:55 PM

Blasters blow chunks out of concrete, but I hardly recall the handheld variety removing body sized pieces thereof.http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j305/GreatHackster/DockingBay94.jpg
That's from Han's pistol.

Bullets incidentally put plenty large holes in concrete as well. Vera's also got a flash suppressor/silencer*, ACOG-like sight, what looks like a picatinny rail for a night sight on front of that, likely selective fire capability, and almost certainly the ability to fire a fair variety of ammo types such as tracer, ball, AP, or if you've got the money, incendiary.Oh, I'm not arguing that it's got a greater variety of fire modes, but that this makes it a better weapon for the defense of a rural settlement as in the setup. The bowcaster's got a sight as well, although you're correct, the silencer and the non-light-show are pretty big advantages if you're trying to fire from hiding. Of course, if the attackers have access to any halfway decent body armor, Jayne's gonna have to aim very carefully, because much of Star Wars armor (stormtrooper being the most common) renders small-arms ballistics essentially worthless. They're unlikely to, though, this being a rural world and them not being military or mercenaries.

Small nitpick, though: Chewie's weapon doesn't take much time to reload, despite EU sources to the contrary. In the movies he fires just as often as those with pistols or E-11s.

Assuming the attacker has no AA capability then yes so long as you have the room to spray away with high powered cannons. But c'mon, even Shepard Book's colony has a freaking AA gun, and it's not like missile launchers are particularly rare in Star Wars either.Well we're on a backwater planet defending a rural settlement from low-tech attackers, so the assumption of no AA is pretty safe. However, even if they do have AA, the Falcon is more than equal to anything they'd have. It can take shots from turbolasers, let alone any surface to air missiles or laser cannons the attackers might have, and while its shields may be worn down over the course of the fight, it's also fast enough to evade those attacks as well. It can easily decimate any ground forces with its own double quad-laser batteries and concussion missile launcher, which will almost certainly be more powerful than anything they carry (unless they mysteriously have access to AT-ATs or some other ridiculous thing).

I had assumed this situation was similar to the one in "Heart of Gold," where the Falcon would have won the entire battle in about three seconds. Even if the attackers are given cover, the Falcon will still be able to root out many of them when they break it to attack, or to simply strafe the areas where they're known to be.

Well, given that Dervag established this happens in the Star Wars universe, it's safe to assume that Vera is a souped up Mazeratti blaster rifle running on nitrous compared to 20 year old Ford pickup trucks everyone else seems to be using as weapons.Actually, the main characters are pretty well equipped; Han's blaster is a souped-up heavy blaster pistol that is pretty much guaranteed to drop someone even with a graze, and Chewie's is a custom-built energy crossbow that can punch through most types of armor plating. Vera's likely to be similar to clonetrooper rifles, I'd say, possibly one with all the bells and whistles as opposed to a standard issue one, which are optimized for long range fire and powerful enough to punch through droids' armor.

Dervag

2009-12-14, 10:06 PM

Although to be fair, Mal did beat the Operative the second time around. Granted, he got kinda lucky, but he's no pushover.Very lucky; the Operative landed what should have been a disabling strike that didn't work on Mal. When it didn't work, that threw him significantly off balance. In the first fight Mal was getting his butt handed to him.

What evidence we have certainly suggests that Jayne works best with his fists and very, very large guns. Zoe seems to be more of all-rounder, and has the most experience with things like stealth and other soldierly arts. And lest we forget, Mal's probably the handiest with a pistol, and certainly fastest on the draw.Well, of course; he does practice it in the mirror when no one's looking...

Remember Mal and Zoe fought for a cause because they had a moral stance. Jayne fights because it's what he does. Really, of the three, Jayne's the professional, even if he's got less formal training.Being a mercenary does not make you more professional, or vice versa. Professional just means it's what you do for a living; it doesn't mean you're only in it for the money.

Also, Vera being a better weapon? Blasters vaporize durasteel and blow body-sized chunks out of concrete; what criteria are you using here?Technological parity, remember? Rule #1? If Serenity weapons are not up to snuff by Star Wars standards, they get upgraded until they are, so that the contest is about the men and the relative quality, not the absolute quality of tools in the two universes (which Han gets no credit and Mal no blame for).

Vera is one of the higher-end firearms in its setting; it's the prize piece of a man who seems to spend almost all his money on his gun collection, and he considers it an acceptable exchange for a bride. Granted he's a disgusting thug, but that still says something about its quality as a weapon.

So, by technological parity, Vera gets exchanged for a high-end blaster rifle. Really high-end, like a custom-modified DC-15S blaster carbine (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DC-15S_blaster) or some such.

In addition to that, the Falcon is a greater asset in such a fight than pretty much anything Mal's crew brings to the table, since it's quite possible it would remove the need for a shootout at all with its sensors and weaponry. Even if you accept that they can't match Mal and crew's "skills", the Falcon makes it academic.Hopefully, terrain and political conditions on the ground permitting. Not all problems can be solved by the application of close air support, though certainly a lot can.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 10:18 PM

http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Ground/DockingBay94.jpg
That's from Han's pistol.

There seems to be a problem with your link. Either that or Han's blaster is so powerful it not only destroys walls, but all images of the wall as well.

Which would actually be rather handy.

Oh, I'm not arguing that it's got a greater variety of fire modes, but that this makes it a better weapon for the defense of a rural settlement as in the setup. The bowcaster's got a sight as well, although you're correct, the silencer and the non-light-show are pretty big advantages if you're trying to fire from hiding. Of course, if the attackers have access to any halfway decent body armor, Jayne's gonna have to aim very carefully, because much of Star Wars armor (stormtrooper being the most common) renders small-arms ballistics essentially worthless. They're unlikely to, though, this being a rural world and them not being military or mercenaries.
The bowcaster does have a sight, but my understanding (based on every videogame I've played with bowcasters available in it) is that you have to charge up the shot to get a single projectile as opposed to a wide angle horizontal spray (and I mean wide- at least in Battlefront 2 my usual problem with the bowcaster was that at even ten feet or so there would be man-sized spaces between the bolts). That's nice versatility, but for putting holes in dudes at all but really close range I'd prefer semi-auto to having to charge up every single shot. Much higher rate of fire.

Small nitpick, though: Chewie's weapon doesn't take much time to reload, despite EU sources to the contrary. In the movies he fires just as often as those with pistols or E-11s.
That's time between shots, not time to reload. You can fire a belt fed machine gun just as often as a pistol, but changing belts takes longer than changing mags.

Well we're on a backwater planet defending a rural settlement from low-tech attackers, so the assumption of no AA is pretty safe. However, even if they do have AA, the Falcon is more than equal to anything they'd have. It can take shots from turbolasers, let alone any surface to air missiles or laser cannons the attackers might have, and while its shields may be worn down over the course of the fight, it's also fast enough to evade those attacks as well. It can easily decimate any ground forces with its own double quad-laser batteries and concussion missile launcher, which will almost certainly be more powerful than anything they carry (unless they mysteriously have access to AT-ATs or some other ridiculous thing).
Again, Book's colony had some sort of AA cannon, so backwater settlements having AA elements can't be ruled out. Of course that was a fixed gun, not a mobile installation.

Although you're still probably right that the air power of the Falcon tips this in Han's favor.

I had assumed this situation was similar to the one in "Heart of Gold," where the Falcon would have won the entire battle in about three seconds. Even if the attackers are given cover, the Falcon will still be able to root out many of them when they break it to attack, or to simply strafe the areas where they're known to be.
If that's the case, then yes. On the other hand if the entire battle takes place within a settlement, I think the superior numbers of Serenity's crew will count for more than air support.

Connington

2009-12-14, 10:28 PM

A very good point.

While I'm at it, it was Jayne that was the designated marksman during Heart of Gold, when Mal could set things up as he liked, so yeah, I'm guessing he's the handiest with a big gun.

I'd disagree with this. The only weapons we ever really see Zoe use are her Mare's Leg (which may be a shotgun), what is most definitely a shotgun, and I think some handguns when she rescues Mal.

She's just as good as Jayne with her Mare's Leg though. She's taken down moving targets with it while jumping, and just after being shot hard enough to knock the wind out of her. Jayne's shown some fancy gunwork too (although mostly with a rifle and time to aim, as opposed to close quarters gun slinging) but I don't see anything to mark Jayne as better than Zoe in her niche.

Again, Jayne is the only character we see fire anything that resembles a machine gun. In fact given the blue lights on his big ass machine gun thing, it's probably a Newtech gun, and significantly more advanced than the stuff the rest of the crew uses.

Vera's a big gun, but she's basically a souped up assault rifle. I don't think he's had the opportunity to fire anything much bigger though (aside from those grenades he loves so much) simply because that's military grade hardware.

Da'Shain

2009-12-14, 10:42 PM

Technological parity, remember? Rule #1? If Serenity weapons are not up to snuff by Star Wars standards, they get upgraded until they are, so that the contest is about the men and the relative quality, not the absolute quality of tools in the two universes (which Han gets no credit and Mal no blame for).
...
So, by technological parity, Vera gets exchanged for a high-end blaster rifle. Really high-end, like a custom-modified DC-15S blaster carbine (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DC-15S_blaster) or some such.I may have misunderstood Jallorn, but I assumed that he meant Vera as its actual self, not Vera upgraded to the Star Wars setting, so I responded to that. My bad if that wasn't the case.

I think Vera'd be more akin to a souped-up DC-15A, myself, but that's just splitting hairs. :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully, terrain and political conditions on the ground permitting. Not all problems can be solved by the application of close air support, though certainly a lot can.The threat of the Falcon could be enough to quell such a fight, even if using it would be difficult. If it can't be used in the air, though, it works perfectly fine as a stationary turret defending whatever the main objective is; its cannons can cover most comers, even if the concussion missile launcher needs to be pointed at its target by the ship itself.

Again, if the situation is at all similar to "Heart of Gold" the Falcon would win it in a cakewalk. It'd still be useful in plenty of other situations, if only as a large shield or for its sensor suite.

There seems to be a problem with your link. Either that or Han's blaster is so powerful it not only destroys walls, but all images of the wall as well.

Which would actually be rather handy.Eraser gun, GO!

Anyway, fixed it, check it out.

The bowcaster does have a sight, but my understanding (based on every videogame I've played with bowcasters available in it) is that you have to charge up the shot to get a single projectile as opposed to a wide angle horizontal spray (and I mean wide- at least in Battlefront 2 my usual problem with the bowcaster was that at even ten feet or so there would be man-sized spaces between the bolts). That's nice versatility, but for putting holes in dudes at all but really close range I'd prefer semi-auto to having to charge up every single shot. Much higher rate of fire.
That's time between shots, not time to reload. You can fire a belt fed machine gun just as often as a pistol, but changing belts takes longer than changing mags.That's not at all how a bowcaster actually works; that's just game mechanics, same as stormies taking multiple blaster bolts to the face, power packs never having to be swapped, or swords doing more damage than guns. There's no "charging up" involved.

Ah, I assumed you were referring to replacing the bolts like on a normal crossbow, which some sources say is required. But no, there's no indication it takes longer to swap out a clip of bolts on the bowcaster than it does on a normal gun, at least not that I know of.

Again, Book's colony had some sort of AA cannon, so backwater settlements having AA elements can't be ruled out. Of course that was a fixed gun, not a mobile installation.And like I said, even if it does it's highly unlikely to be effective against the Falcon, plus the attackers are unlikely to be in control of a turret like that since they're the ones attacking a stationary target.

If that's the case, then yes. On the other hand if the entire battle takes place within a settlement, I think the superior numbers of Serenity's crew will count for more than air support.That's certainly possible, although if they're careful the Falcon is still capable of providing covering fire, as well as being used as I outlined above.

Also, Han's Rebel contacts could quite easily come into play in such a situation, bringing in far more extra bodies than the crew of the Serenity can.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 11:01 PM

While I'm at it, it was Jayne that was the designated marksman during Heart of Gold, when Mal could set things up as he liked, so yeah, I'm guessing he's the handiest with a big gun.

Another point I had missed.

She's just as good as Jayne with her Mare's Leg though. She's taken down moving targets with it while jumping, and just after being shot hard enough to knock the wind out of her. Jayne's shown some fancy gunwork too (although mostly with a rifle and time to aim, as opposed to close quarters gun slinging) but I don't see anything to mark Jayne as better than Zoe in her niche.
I don't think I ever implied otherwise.

Vera's a big gun, but she's basically a souped up assault rifle. I don't think he's had the opportunity to fire anything much bigger though (aside from those grenades he loves so much) simply because that's military grade hardware.
I wasn't talking about Vera, I was talking about the beast he uses against the Reavers in the last part of Serenity. This thing:
http://splicedwire.com/05reviews/serenity.jpg
A different view:
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/050810/164428__serenity_l.jpg

If that's an assault rifle, it looks like no other one in the 'Verse, even the fancy ones the Alliance uses.

Sholos

2009-12-14, 11:07 PM

From what it seems (and I will admit I do not have much knowledge outside the movies) most his smuggling was done on the rim were the empire isn't as powerful or influential. Note I am basing this off of the fact that his debt (due to a failed smuggling op if I am not mistaken) is to jabba who is based on a planet on the rim.
Some of Han's smuggling was done on the Rim, but he also worked inwards, too. Also, the Empire seems to be more prevalent than the Alliance, and much less forgiving, so you have to factor that in as well.

Where as Mal and the like run into plenty of Alliance vessels regularly and have to plot ridiculous out of the way trips to avoid them (see out of gas) And whenever they are caught with salvaged goods the gov quickly takes it back.
It happens what, once? Maybe twice? It's certainly not regularly. Also, if the Empire caught you with salvaged goods that they wanted back, you'd be lucky if they just killed you. You'd more likely be looking at the rest of your life in a nasty place like Kessel.

So I don't know if you can really say that the empire is more restrictive (at least as far as what Han deals with)
I think we can. The Empire is out and out evil. Corruption is almost encouraged, and cruelty is certainly ignored (or even required). The Alliance is more a standard government, corruption and all. Remember, the first time we see the Alliance, they stop chasing a smuggler to help out a disabled ship, and the second time they're bringing you-know-what to that mining camp. Hardly the actions of a more-or-less evil government.

Episode 1 the out think and thus outrun the cruiser which catches them pulling illegal salvage.
No, outrunning and out-thinking are two different things. It's pretty clear from the officer's line that they could have caught Serenity had they wanted to. Heck, the very fact that Mal uses the Crybaby implies that he's not exactly sure about being able to get away. Getting away does not equal outrunning.

BRC

2009-12-14, 11:22 PM

Texas_Ben

2009-12-14, 11:28 PM

Ah, I assumed you were referring to replacing the bolts like on a normal crossbow, which some sources say is required. But no, there's no indication it takes longer to swap out a clip of bolts on the bowcaster than it does on a normal gun, at least not that I know of.
As I understand it, your stock standard bowcaster will need to be recocked by hand after every shot and a new bolt inserted, but it is extremely common for wookies to mod them with various improvements so that this isn't necessary... for example, adding systems that automatically recock the bolcaster after each shot and/or magazines with more bolts.

Philistine

2009-12-15, 01:16 AM

We also seem to be ignoring the vastly increased cargo carrying capability of Serenity vis a vis the Falcon. Han might be able to make a run faster, but he can't carry as much per run. That's gonna close off a lot of options to Han.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling
Both Han and Mal have settled onto a relatively profitable trade route that involves sneaking valuable biological materials from their planet of origin to a trading hub in a relatively populous sector. The catch? The Navy is holding fleet exercises in the area, so there are a disproportionate number of heavy warships and troops around.

Which smuggler can make more money faster, while avoiding capture by sneaking, bluffing, or fighting their way past the central government's patrols?

We can assume that whatever cargo is being run, its characteristics are such that either Serenity or the Millennium Falcon can carry it profitably, because that's precisely the case under examination. There are other possible cases, including the case in which the Falcon bulks out before it can load enough of a given cargo to make a trip of any duration profitable, but they're not pertinent.

The Falcon's hyperdrive is at least four times faster than that of an average freighter in the GFFA, possibly six. The cargo in question would have to be very bulky indeed to offset Han's ability to make four or six runs for every one Mal completes.
__
ION, I'm not sure where the idea that the Serenity crew are extremely skilled brawlers comes from. Jayne for example is very tough and very brutal, but it seems to me that his technique could be summed up as "grab the heaviest object he can swing and wade into the fray." It works well enough when you're the strongest person in the room, which in Firefly he usually is, but I don't see how it's a marker of skill.
__
IOON, I still can't agree that the modifications to the Millennium Falcon turn it into a "gunship." For all its modifications, the Falcon is still a smuggler vessel, meant to escape enemy fighters rather than dogfight them. Keep in mind that in most of the scenes where we see the Falcon under attack by TIE fighters, the Imperials are not trying to destroy her: in ANH, they're tracking her to find the Rebel base, and in TESB Vader wants to capture the ship because he believes Luke is aboard. Thus I suspect that neither of these is indicative of the best efforts of the Empire's starfighter force, and that as such they also don't give a complete picture of what the Falcon can (and can't) do. The Falcon's performance puts her in the top 1% of smuggler vessels galaxy-wide, but that's still the correct taxonomy; a purpose-built naval vessel of similar size should have enough of a margin in performance, firepower, and ruggedness to eat her for breakfast.

BRC

2009-12-15, 01:58 AM

We can assume that whatever cargo is being run, its characteristics are such that either Serenity or the Millennium Falcon can carry it profitably, because that's precisely the case under examination. There are other possible cases, including the case in which the Falcon bulks out before it can load enough of a given cargo to make a trip of any duration profitable, but they're not pertinent.

The Falcon's hyperdrive is at least four times faster than that of an average freighter in the GFFA, possibly six. The cargo in question would have to be very bulky indeed to offset Han's ability to make four or six runs for every one Mal completes.
__
ION, I'm not sure where the idea that the Serenity crew are extremely skilled brawlers comes from. Jayne for example is very tough and very brutal, but it seems to me that his technique could be summed up as "grab the heaviest object he can swing and wade into the fray." It works well enough when you're the strongest person in the room, which in Firefly he usually is, but I don't see how it's a marker of skill.
__
IOON, I still can't agree that the modifications to the Millennium Falcon turn it into a "gunship." For all its modifications, the Falcon is still a smuggler vessel, meant to escape enemy fighters rather than dogfight them. Keep in mind that in most of the scenes where we see the Falcon under attack by TIE fighters, the Imperials are not trying to destroy her: in ANH, they're tracking her to find the Rebel base, and in TESB Vader wants to capture the ship because he believes Luke is aboard. Thus I suspect that neither of these is indicative of the best efforts of the Empire's starfighter force, and that as such they also don't give a complete picture of what the Falcon can (and can't) do. The Falcon's performance puts her in the top 1% of smuggler vessels galaxy-wide, but that's still the correct taxonomy; a purpose-built naval vessel of similar size should have enough of a margin in performance, firepower, and ruggedness to eat her for breakfast.
It may not be a Gunship, but as a ship with guns on it it can serve that purpose. Maybe it's design isn't ideal for that, but a starship will be immune to most hand-held weapons, and it's weapons will be very very powerful compared to the small arms everybody else is packing.

GreyVulpine

2009-12-15, 03:15 AM

Well we're on a backwater planet defending a rural settlement from low-tech attackers, so the assumption of no AA is pretty safe. However, even if they do have AA, the Falcon is more than equal to anything they'd have. It can take shots from turbolasers, let alone any surface to air missiles or laser cannons the attackers might have, and while its shields may be worn down over the course of the fight, it's also fast enough to evade those attacks as well. It can easily decimate any ground forces with its own double quad-laser batteries and concussion missile launcher, which will almost certainly be more powerful than anything they carry (unless they mysteriously have access to AT-ATs or some other ridiculous thing).

Another big difference between Serenity and the Millennium Falcon is the existence of shields. The Millennium Falcon boasted a military-grade unit, which proved helpful in taking those hits. If Serenity had something similar, it wouldn't be as fragile.

Also, many SW starships boasted ray shielding (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_shield), which protected from energy weapons but not particle shielding, which protected against physical objects. Particle shielding didn't allow projectiles to exit from the ship (whereas ray shielding prevented only from incoming shots).

Would the Millennium Falcon's shielding be sufficient against the German 88 AA gun seen in the movie? And if push came to shove, mounting a nice big WWII AA gun on top of Serenity (http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/displayimage.php?album=73&pos=2027) isn't out of the question. Heck, from that scale, it seems like you could fit a few inside the cargo hold and do some strafing runs. Also, it'd seem like that crazy ivan manuveur from the pilot episode where serenity did a burn inside atmo could solve any bandit problem (provided it was on an open plain, away from the town).

hamishspence

2009-12-15, 05:44 AM

Yeah, the Empire is Evil, the Alliance is merely the Opposition. Yes they are Jerks, and occasionally *******s, but they're not Evil. The Alliance officers we see in the show are, 90% of the time, simply doing their jobs.

Now, the Academy and the Hands of Blue are a different story, but I got the impression most of the alliance would find what they were doing abhorrent.
The Empire on the other hand is fairly openly Evil, they know it, and everybody else does. The Alliance may have accidentally killed a planet (Miranda), but the Empire did it on purpose, and for reasons best described as "For teh Lulz"

Actually, going by the EU, the Empire officers are generally not that different from the Alliance officers.

To the extent that the official story the Empire leadership gave out, on the Death Star, was that it was a very powerful mining instrument, hijacked by the Rebels and turned on Alderaan.

Not at all a convincing story, but the Empire is not as "fairly openly evil" in the EU, as the films might imply.

Sholos

2009-12-15, 07:46 AM

IOON, I still can't agree that the modifications to the Millennium Falcon turn it into a "gunship." For all its modifications, the Falcon is still a smuggler vessel, meant to escape enemy fighters rather than dogfight them. Keep in mind that in most of the scenes where we see the Falcon under attack by TIE fighters, the Imperials are not trying to destroy her: in ANH, they're tracking her to find the Rebel base, and in TESB Vader wants to capture the ship because he believes Luke is aboard. Thus I suspect that neither of these is indicative of the best efforts of the Empire's starfighter force, and that as such they also don't give a complete picture of what the Falcon can (and can't) do. The Falcon's performance puts her in the top 1% of smuggler vessels galaxy-wide, but that's still the correct taxonomy; a purpose-built naval vessel of similar size should have enough of a margin in performance, firepower, and ruggedness to eat her for breakfast.
Remember that in RotJ, the Falcon is being used to assault the Death Star II. Enemy starfighters are certainly trying to destroy it there, and they don't succeed any better.

Another big difference between Serenity and the Millennium Falcon is the existence of shields. The Millennium Falcon boasted a military-grade unit, which proved helpful in taking those hits. If Serenity had something similar, it wouldn't be as fragile.
I don't think Mal would have a military-grade shield on Serenity, though. I doubt he'd ever have the funds to do so. Remember, the Falcon is one of the most heavily modified ships out there. Tech parity would give Serenity normal shielding for its kind of vehicle. Certainly not enough to tangle with a capital ship.

Also, many SW starships boasted ray shielding (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_shield), which protected from energy weapons but not particle shielding, which protected against physical objects. Particle shielding didn't allow projectiles to exit from the ship (whereas ray shielding prevented only from incoming shots).
Every ship has both ray and particle shielding. You just turn the particle shield off when you need to.

Would the Millennium Falcon's shielding be sufficient against the German 88 AA gun seen in the movie? And if push came to shove, mounting a nice big WWII AA gun on top of Serenity (http://www.leavemethewhite.com/caps/displayimage.php?album=73&pos=2027) isn't out of the question. Heck, from that scale, it seems like you could fit a few inside the cargo hold and do some strafing runs. Also, it'd seem like that crazy ivan manuveur from the pilot episode where serenity did a burn inside atmo could solve any bandit problem (provided it was on an open plain, away from the town).
A) Mal doesn't mount a gun until the Alliance pisses him off to the extreme and drives him to no other choice. I don't think he'd install one just for the kicks and giggles, which means he's not going to have one for the defense scenario.
B) I think the gun might be the equivalent of a heavy laser cannon, but nothing more. I don't know how it would interact with the shields as-is. Presumably there's a reason no Star Wars ships use large mounted guns.

Dervag

2009-12-15, 08:36 AM

The bowcaster does have a sight, but my understanding (based on every videogame I've played with bowcasters available in it) is that you have to charge up the shot to get a single projectile as opposed to a wide angle horizontal spray (and I mean wide- at least in Battlefront 2 my usual problem with the bowcaster was that at even ten feet or so there would be man-sized spaces between the bolts). That's nice versatility, but for putting holes in dudes at all but really close range I'd prefer semi-auto to having to charge up every single shot. Much higher rate of fire.That's a gameplay mechanic, and I can equally well point to games where bowcasters fire on semi-automatic.

I think we can. The Empire is out and out evil. Corruption is almost encouraged, and cruelty is certainly ignored (or even required). The Alliance is more a standard government, corruption and all. Remember, the first time we see the Alliance, they stop chasing a smuggler to help out a disabled ship, and the second time they're bringing you-know-what to that mining camp. Hardly the actions of a more-or-less evil government.Nitpick: the medical shipment and the troops were moving separately; they just happened to be on the same train, so they made some effort to secure the goods. The Alliance might have been paying for the medicine, but I do not know.

No, outrunning and out-thinking are two different things. It's pretty clear from the officer's line that they could have caught Serenity had they wanted to. Heck, the very fact that Mal uses the Crybaby implies that he's not exactly sure about being able to get away. Getting away does not equal outrunning.Yes. Remember how one of the junior officers on the Alliance cruisers asks "should we deploy gunships and bring them in?" or something along those lines. That strongly implies that gunships can catch a ship running at that speed.

We can assume that whatever cargo is being run, its characteristics are such that either Serenity or the Millennium Falcon can carry it profitably, because that's precisely the case under examination. There are other possible cases, including the case in which the Falcon bulks out before it can load enough of a given cargo to make a trip of any duration profitable, but they're not pertinent.That's only going to be true for cargoes that are low value per unit volume, though... which are precisely the things that no one bothers to smuggle. The Falcon might not be able to make a profit running cattle back and forth (pictures a cow wandering onto the bridge in midflight), but who would hire them to do so?

The Falcon's hyperdrive is at least four times faster than that of an average freighter in the GFFA, possibly six. The cargo in question would have to be very bulky indeed to offset Han's ability to make four or six runs for every one Mal completes.At hyperdrive speeds, turnaround time is a factor too; I'd call it more like three to five because of that. You have to spend time on each planet lining up supplies, loading the goods, and faking the paperwork, and that cuts into the time you can spend physically moving stuff. Moreover, that time is not related to how fast your ship is...

ION, I'm not sure where the idea that the Serenity crew are extremely skilled brawlers comes from. Jayne for example is very tough and very brutal, but it seems to me that his technique could be summed up as "grab the heaviest object he can swing and wade into the fray." It works well enough when you're the strongest person in the room, which in Firefly he usually is, but I don't see how it's a marker of skill.He may not be skilled, but he is effective; I call him a skilled brawler because, empirically, he's good at brawling. That doesn't mean he has extensive formal training in hand to hand combat, but he's good at it anyway. There are people out there who have not formally trained in unarmed combat but are still very dangerous, not just because they're big but because they're experienced and they pick up tricks informally. Jayne seems to be one of those.

Also, many SW starships boasted ray shielding (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_shield), which protected from energy weapons but not particle shielding, which protected against physical objects. Particle shielding didn't allow projectiles to exit from the ship (whereas ray shielding prevented only from incoming shots).

Would the Millennium Falcon's shielding be sufficient against the German 88 AA gun seen in the movie?Wasn't an 88-style gun; not sure it was German, either... Also, when you run the numbers, 20th century artillery against Star Wars ships is kind of laughable, because Star Wars antiship weapons are really powerful, in the "blow several million cubic meters of rock to gravel" sense.

That's one of the reasons I put Rule #1 into play: to establish technological parity. But that means replacing or upgrading Firefly 'verse weapons to Star Wars technological standards... which, realistically, means blaster/laser/turbolaser/whatever cannons. Energy weapons.

Also, it'd seem like that crazy ivan manuveur from the pilot episode where serenity did a burn inside atmo could solve any bandit problem (provided it was on an open plain, away from the town).A point; any space drive worth using can be used as a weapon. Not a solution in rough terrain, but then neither is air support from the Falcon. Though Mal probably wouldn't order something like that unless he was well and truly angry- sort of like the way he "declares war" in the movie after the destruction of that settlement.

Actually, going by the EU, the Empire officers are generally not that different from the Alliance officers. To the extent that the official story the Empire leadership gave out, on the Death Star, was that it was a very powerful mining instrument, hijacked by the Rebels and turned on Alderaan. Not at all a convincing story, but the Empire is not as "fairly openly evil" in the EU, as the films might imply.Moff Tarkin, with the Emperor's personal backing, was planning to use the Death Star to establish a rule by fear over the Empire. Which would require the open destruction of planets. The only reason the Empire didn't go with that strategy was because the Death Star got blown up just after destroying Alderaan. Which forced them to both explain what happened to Alderaan and explain why they no longer had a planetcrushing beam weapon.

But they were very much planning to go down the "yes, we are evil, and we will blow up your planet if you argue with us!" route. That was Plan A; the propaganda explanation was Plan B.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-15, 12:50 PM

Every ship has both ray and particle shielding. You just turn the particle shield off when you need to.

You've got that backwards. The particle shields are almost always on, since they are mainly there to protect against impacts from micrometeors and other objects flying through space at great speed which you could hit at any time. Concentrated high-energy blasts though? Not going to see much of that outside of combat.

madtinker

2009-12-15, 01:26 PM

Event #1: Barroom Brawl

I just can't see anyone landing a punch to the face on Chewie. He'd rip their arms off.

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling

Given the situation of heavily guarded/patrolled routes...if Mal can lay low, he might pull it off. Han usually winds up fighting, which generates too much attention, while Mal usually finds a way to escape. He isn't a low profile by any means, but he's lower than Han.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance

Fireflies will run forever. Han will eventually think of something else he wants to add, and that will break everything. Keep it simple, keep flying.

Event #4: Knight Errantry

Mal has a better team. Simon patches up the locals, and more manpower means more coverage. Han...seems like someone would chase him down and burn everything after he left.

Event #5: Escape the Crime Lord

The direct assault staged by Zoe was quite effective, but given the relatively low firepower they were up against, it may not be that impressive. And say what you want about interrogation droids, Mal's torture was up close, personal, and lasted days rather than hours. And he still whooped butt when his captors were distracted. Might have gotten out on his own, while Han had to rely on friends. And face it, it probably wouldn't have worked as neatly without the Jedi skills.

Tiger Duck

2009-12-15, 01:38 PM

Every ship has both ray and particle shielding. You just turn the particle shield off when you need to.
You've got that backwards. The particle shields are almost always on, since they are mainly there to protect against impacts from micrometeors and other objects flying through space at great speed which you could hit at any time. Concentrated high-energy blasts though? Not going to see much of that outside of combat.

Emphasis added, you're both saying the same thing ^^

Texas_Ben

2009-12-15, 02:01 PM

Emphasis added, you're both saying the same thing ^^

derp... I read that "off" as an "on"

Sholos

2009-12-15, 03:21 PM

Event #2: Competitive Smuggling

Given the situation of heavily guarded/patrolled routes...if Mal can lay low, he might pull it off. Han usually winds up fighting, which generates too much attention, while Mal usually finds a way to escape. He isn't a low profile by any means, but he's lower than Han.

Event #3: Creative Maintenance

Fireflies will run forever. Han will eventually think of something else he wants to add, and that will break everything. Keep it simple, keep flying.

I more or less agree with everything else you said, but these two I don't necessarily agree with.

In the first one, as we've been debating throughout the thread, Han has a huge advantage in being able to run stuff by even a heavily patrolled area. Mal? Mal plots huge course deviations just to avoid any contact. Guess who's making more trips faster?

In the second, I'm not sure you can actually say all that. From the show, it's pretty obvious that the only reason Serenity is still in the air is because Kaylee is a mechanical genius. Heck, when Mal makes the aforementioned huge course deviation, it does break down, and Kaylee has had to do some pretty nasty things to the engine room to keep it in the air.

Also, when you say that Han will inevitably break the Falcon with a new part, I'd like to know why you're making that claim. I can't think of a single time in the movies or the EU where Han does this. Han is not some bumpkin when it comes to machines. He is, in fact, a highly skilled mechanic. He's certainly not going to take risks if there's a good chance it'd kill the Falcon.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-15, 03:28 PM

Also, when you say that Han will inevitably break the Falcon with a new part, I'd like to know why you're making that claim.
...Because he spends pretty much the entire 2nd movie trying to get the thing to work?

BRC

2009-12-15, 03:29 PM

I more or less agree with everything else you said, but these two I don't necessarily agree with.

In the first one, as we've been debating throughout the thread, Han has a huge advantage in being able to run stuff by even a heavily patrolled area. Mal? Mal plots huge course deviations just to avoid any contact. Guess who's making more trips faster?

In the second, I'm not sure you can actually say all that. From the show, it's pretty obvious that the only reason Serenity is still in the air is because Kaylee is a mechanical genius. Heck, when Mal makes the aforementioned huge course deviation, it does break down, and Kaylee has had to do some pretty nasty things to the engine room to keep it in the air.

Also, when you say that Han will inevitably break the Falcon with a new part, I'd like to know why you're making that claim. I can't think of a single time in the movies or the EU where Han does this. Han is not some bumpkin when it comes to machines. He is, in fact, a highly skilled mechanic. He's certainly not going to take risks if there's a good chance it'd kill the Falcon.
I wouldn't call him a "Highly Skilled Mechanic", or more accurately, I don't see a reason to bestow that honor on him. He certainly has some mechanical skills, but "Highly Skilled", for me anyway, implies he's better than the average professional mechanic. He's a smuggler who learned how to fix stuff as a matter of necessity.

That said, he's not an idiot who will go sticking risky parts into his ship if there is a chance it will cause the ship to freeze up when he's trying to high-tail it away from imperial pursuit. He's a smuggler, and smugglers survive by being cautious.

Sholos

2009-12-15, 04:13 PM

...Because he spends pretty much the entire 2nd movie trying to get the thing to work?
Do you realize that this is because they had taken the hyperdrive somewhat apart to do maintenance on it when the Empire attacked? They didn't exactly have a lot of time to sit around. It's not because Han was an idiot and put something incompatible in. It was just a crappy situation.

pendell

2009-12-15, 04:20 PM

WRT the barroom brawl -- what insane fool would tackle a wookie bare-handed? If this is a 'friendly' fist fight, then presumably Mal and company are able to slip out while Chewie is busy fighting. If it's a fight were one side MUST disable the other -- stun weapons exist in the SW universe. Presumably this would be used on Chewie with extreme prejudice as quickly as possible. If one gun doesn't work, five will.

If Chewie is in arm-ripping mode -- then this is a lethal threat and must be dealt with accordingly. Don't fool with 'em -- just get out a blaster or a thermal detonator and *kill* him. Wookies may be hell on wheels in melee, but IIRC they were enslaved by humans who were intelligent enough *not* to fight them in melee.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The Glyphstone

2009-12-15, 06:07 PM

The sort of insane fool that's easily replicated by a drunken fool. The sort of drunken fool you'd likely find in, say, a bar.:smallbiggrin:

GreyVulpine

2009-12-15, 06:40 PM

Wasn't an 88-style gun; not sure it was German, either... Also, when you run the numbers, 20th century artillery against Star Wars ships is kind of laughable, because Star Wars antiship weapons are really powerful, in the "blow several million cubic meters of rock to gravel" sense.

That's one of the reasons I put Rule #1 into play: to establish technological parity. But that means replacing or upgrading Firefly 'verse weapons to Star Wars technological standards... which, realistically, means blaster/laser/turbolaser/whatever cannons. Energy weapons.

Ah, I was wrong. It was a WW2 German 20mm Flak 38 (imdb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/trivia)) that they mounted on top of Serenity.

My point in bringing up the old-era artillery weapon was the fact that all small starfighters only carried ray deflector shields, with minimal navigational shielding to protect against meteorites striking from the front arc (as stated in my old SW: essential guide to starships book (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Guide-Vehicles-Vessels-Star/dp/034539299X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260920686&sr=8-1)). An old-fashioned physical artillery cannon could easily negate any benefit a souped-up YT-1300 deflector shield brings to the equation.

Hadessniper

2009-12-15, 07:51 PM

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-15, 07:59 PM

Ah, I was wrong. It was a WW2 German 20mm Flak 38 (imdb (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379786/trivia)) that they mounted on top of Serenity.

My point in bringing up the old-era artillery weapon was the fact that all small starfighters only carried ray deflector shields, with minimal navigational shielding to protect against meteorites striking from the front arc (as stated in my old SW: essential guide to starships book (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Guide-Vehicles-Vessels-Star/dp/034539299X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260920686&sr=8-1)). An old-fashioned physical artillery cannon could easily negate any benefit a souped-up YT-1300 deflector shield brings to the equation.

Only, where would you find an old AA cannon? Even the ones on Onderon, which where more than 4000 years old and designed to shoot down animals, were turbolaser emplacements.
An old-style slug-thrower cannon would be prohibitively hard to find.

GreyVulpine

2009-12-15, 08:39 PM

Only, where would you find an old AA cannon? Even the ones on Onderon, which where more than 4000 years old and designed to shoot down animals, were turbolaser emplacements.
An old-style slug-thrower cannon would be prohibitively hard to find.

Well, handheld slugthrowers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Slugthrower) weren't hard to come by in the SW universe. A number (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Golan_Arms) of SW corporations (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Czerka_Arms) dealt in non-energy weapons. Alright, so you can't find a WWII-era artillery cannon inside the canon SW universe, but non-energy artillery does exist (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/FPC_6.7_Anti-Aircraft_Battery). Say a small contingent of militia forces armed with old shoulder-mounted missiles (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/hh15launcher/index.html) could pose a significant threat to either ship.

Thrawn183

2009-12-16, 12:37 AM

If we're going for setting parity, I'd probably have to say that Jayne's freaky gun from the movie probably counts as an E-web. It's even used in the exact situation I would expect.

Dervag

2009-12-16, 12:54 AM

My point in bringing up the old-era artillery weapon was the fact that all small starfighters only carried ray deflector shields, with minimal navigational shielding to protect against meteorites striking from the front arc (as stated in my old SW: essential guide to starships book (http://www.amazon.com/Essential-Guide-Vehicles-Vessels-Star/dp/034539299X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260920686&sr=8-1)). An old-fashioned physical artillery cannon could easily negate any benefit a souped-up YT-1300 deflector shield brings to the equation.The trouble is that shielding that is adequate against meteor impacts should laugh at small-caliber artillery shells, and scoring a direct hit with a large-caliber gun against an airborne target is very unlikely.

Kinetic energy weapons don't seem to be in style in Star Wars, and I suspect there are good reasons for that; it certainly wouldn't be difficult for them to build effective mass drivers and the like. So I don't think you should expect to see kinetic energy weapons scattered all over the place in our hybridized setting, and I don't think they'd be all that effective against even small starships if you did.

...non-energy artillery does exist (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/FPC_6.7_Anti-Aircraft_Battery). Say a small contingent of militia forces armed with old shoulder-mounted missiles (http://www.starwars.com/databank/technology/hh15launcher/index.html) could pose a significant threat to either ship.True. Very true.

It's been stated in canon that a firefly with a half decent mechanic will keep you in the skies for life.True, although the person who said that was specifically trying to "sell" Serenity to a crew of ship thieves; if anyone had an incentive to exaggerate the ship's ruggedness it would be her.

If we're going for setting parity, I'd probably have to say that Jayne's freaky gun from the movie probably counts as an E-web. It's even used in the exact situation I would expect.Nah; an E-Web is too heavy even for Jayne to use as a shoulder arm. It's the functional equivalent of a .50 caliber machine gun or other tripod-mounted weapon in that weight class. It has to be something Jayne can at least carry and fire without a stand, and not even guys his size can do that with heavy machine guns. Somewhere between that and a standard rifle, probably with a lot of enhancements (the stuff clipped to the rails on the barrel of Vera includes sighting gear and so on).

Connington

2009-12-16, 01:01 AM

In the second, I'm not sure you can actually say all that. From the show, it's pretty obvious that the only reason Serenity is still in the air is because Kaylee is a mechanical genius. Heck, when Mal makes the aforementioned huge course deviation, it does break down, and Kaylee has had to do some pretty nasty things to the engine room to keep it in the air.

It's generally conceded that Fireflies are very, very good ships for those on the raggedy edge. Kaylee is a miracle worker, but it's not the fact that Serenity is spaceworthy that's miraculous, it's the fact that she's spaceworthy on the budget Kaylee gets to work with, and how fast she can work in an emergency.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-16, 01:14 AM

True, although the person who said that was specifically trying to "sell" Serenity to a crew of ship thieves; if anyone had an incentive to exaggerate the ship's ruggedness it would be her.
It was one of the ship thieves which said that, to one of the other ship thieves. They steal ships, so it's reasonable to expect that they know what a ship is worth-- Especially a design as common as the Firefly.

BRC

2009-12-16, 01:19 AM

I got the impression that the Firefly class was somewhat obsolete (It's mentioned that you rarely see them much anymore), not very fancy, but good, dependable ships.

LurkerInPlayground

2009-12-16, 01:21 AM

True, although the person who said that was specifically trying to "sell" Serenity to a crew of ship thieves; if anyone had an incentive to exaggerate the ship's ruggedness it would be her.
Correction:
The guy trying to sell the ship to Mal was not referring to Serenity, but to some other ship.

Serenity just happened to catch his eyes while Mr. Salesman was bent on pitching a different ship.

Hadessniper

2009-12-16, 01:24 AM

Correction:
The guy trying to sell the ship to Mal was not referring to Serenity, but to some other ship.

Serenity just happened to catch his eyes while Mr. Salesman was bent on pitching a different ship.

We were referring to the conversation in Our Mrs. Reynolds with the thieves who were going to fry the crew and sell the ship.

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-16, 01:51 AM

I haven't seen the movie in a while, but maybe Jayne's freaky machinegun in the big Reaver fight would be the equivalent of this (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/63/Candpromo.jpg), or maybe this (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/68/Z-6.jpg)?

Stealthdozer

2009-12-16, 03:17 AM

I’m not talking about Marquis de Queensbury, code duello, or school-boy notions of fisticuffs. "Friendly" fights are just alcohol fueled rednecks dry-humping each other on a bar-room floors. Rednecks aren’t worth spit in a fight, and they know it.

The odds favor the crew of the Firefly, assuming firearms are checked at the door. If firearms are available Han Solo and Chewbacca are dead.

Han Solo might be the worst brawler in the room. Malcolm Reynolds can easily flatten him. Meanwhile Chewy will toss a few hapless drunks aside as he roars an intimidating challenge at Jayne. Jayne might look impressed, and take a step back as Chewy starts to charge.

Zoe slips behind Chewy and cripples his leg with her blade: a wookie’s anatomy might differ from a human’s, but slicing a hamstring, puncturing an artery, or driving a blade through the back of a knee is still going to slow him down. No one pats a woman down for hidden blades.

The enraged, disabled Chewy will stagger around to face Zoe, stumbling after her as she retreats. Jayne crushes Chewy’s skull with a well-aimed bludgeon – where the hell did Jayne find a metal bar? "See, it’s a bar fight" he’ll quip.

Zoe will retrieve her blade from the downed Chewy’s leg, asking Mal "What is this thing?"

Mal will respond with some confusing "A reaver you reckon?"

"I reckon not" Zoe will answer.

"I reckon we scram" Jayne will add. They all hear sirens approaching in the distance.

The Firefly crew don’t fight fair, they don’t even fight to win: they fight to survive, and they’re good at it. Wookies are impressive but nearly extinct – for a reason. Han Solo couldn’t handle Princess Leah.

The only real question is if Mal will take the Millenium Falcon or not?

Sholos

2009-12-16, 05:23 AM

*stares at above post*

I do believe that you, sir, have shown an astounding lack of understanding of Han Solo, Chewbacca, and the Star Wars universe in general. I'm not even sure where to start. Maybe the part where you seem to think that Solo (someone who spends most of his land time in seedy bars) doesn't know how to fight. Or that Chewbacca is a bad fighter as well (when he's exceptional, even among wookies, a race not known for their lack of skill). Or how about the part where you claim that wookies are almost extinct. Pro tip, they're not.

There's also this weird idea that Zoe even carries a blade (I don't seem to remember her ever using one), much less that she'd shank some random guy in a "friendly" bar fight. That'd get the entire bar against her much quicker than anything else. Also, you bring up the question of where Jayne would get a metal bar from, only to ignore it in order to make a bad (and I mean bad bad, not good bad) pun.

Basically, the only way Mal & Crew are winning the bar fight is if guns come into play.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-16, 06:50 AM

Has Han Solo won any fist-fights? You’re assuming he has, but I notice a perplexing lack of evidence. He’s a shoot-first kind of guy for a reason.

Chewbacca can handle himself well enough against random storm troopers. Experienced combatants refusing to fight fair will likely make short work of him. I regret to inform you Wookies are a nearly extinct Shola species. Google it yourself – I’m not your research lackey.

Zoe has killed with her blade before (see The Message). Only rednecks have “friendly” fights, and no one on the Firefly crew is a redneck.

hamishspence

2009-12-16, 07:08 AM

I don't think there is much evidence of them being "nearly extinct" except maybe as of the Legacy of the Force series, when the forests of their planet were blasted from orbit on the orders of a Sith Lord.

Before then, they were common enough, and capable enough, that the Empire went out of their way to enslave them for work on the Death Star.

Brother Oni

2009-12-16, 08:08 AM

I think you're all forgetting the definition of 'winning' the bar fight that the OP listed.

If Mal and his crew managed to extricate themselves out of the bar intact with only minor bruises, then that counts as a 'win' as that's probably the best you expect when there's an enraged wookie involved in a punchup.

As for Zoe managing to hamstring Chewbacca so easily, that's asuming she doesn't get clocked by a random bar patron in the general melee or that wookie flesh is as easy to pierce as human skin is.

Chances are, she manages to get Chewbacca, he backhands her over the bar as she's withdrawing (wookies have disportionately long arms if I recall correctly) and Jayne manages to get a few lucky hits in with the improvised club before all the bar patrons become very unfriendly towards the Firefly crew.
It's one thing to have a punch up, it's something else entirely to start drawing weapons.

Edit:
By the way, didn't Mal get thrown out of an Alliance friendly bar in an episode after starting a friendly punchup?

Dervag

2009-12-16, 09:05 AM

It was one of the ship thieves which said that, to one of the other ship thieves. They steal ships, so it's reasonable to expect that they know what a ship is worth-- Especially a design as common as the Firefly.OK, I'm wrong. Never mind.

Correction:
The guy trying to sell the ship to Mal was not referring to Serenity, but to some other ship.

Serenity just happened to catch his eyes while Mr. Salesman was bent on pitching a different ship.You're thinking of the wrong episode. I mean "Our Mrs. Reynolds," where ship thieves are planning to entrap Serenity in midspace, not the episode where Mal bought the ship in the first place.

I’m not talking about Marquis de Queensbury, code duello, or school-boy notions of fisticuffs. "Friendly" fights are just alcohol fueled rednecks dry-humping each other on a bar-room floors. Rednecks aren’t worth spit in a fight, and they know it.Stealthdozer, I think you're being unrealistically tough-guy (and blue). While your notion of a serious fight may have all sorts of delightful implications, it doesn't automatically match the kind of thing seen in the story (which is what matters for comparison purposes). Since you've seen Firefly episodes, consider the second episode "The Train Job," which is very much a brawl- no knives come out.

There is a reason for that; being the first person in the room to draw a knife is a good way to get shot by the first person in the room to draw a gun. Being the first person in the room to draw a gun is a good way to get shot by the second person, and the odds don't improve much from there.

Chewbacca is so menacing that he could possibly be an exception to that rule; even unarmed he's effectively armed and dangerous, if he's mad enough to act like it. But it is far from guaranteed that he will be.

Your characterization of this fight bears little or no resemblance to the type of fighting described in the scenario, even though you may well consider it more realistic (what are your credentials for deciding what fights "really" look like, by the way?).

Has Han Solo won any fist-fights? You’re assuming he has, but I notice a perplexing lack of evidence. He’s a shoot-first kind of guy for a reason.I find your lack of evidence disturbing...

Chewbacca can handle himself well enough against random storm troopers. Experienced combatants refusing to fight fair will likely make short work of him. I regret to inform you Wookies are a nearly extinct Shola species. Google it yourself – I’m not your research lackey....especially when you're making things up. You're not my research lackey, but if you're not willing to provide a link, I am under no obligation to take your opinions seriously. And I don't particularly intend to.

Edit:
By the way, didn't Mal get thrown out of an Alliance friendly bar in an episode after starting a friendly punchup?Yes, in the first episode Fox aired (not the pilot, "the Train Job," but Fox aired the episodes out of order).

pendell

2009-12-16, 09:10 AM

Edit:
By the way, didn't Mal get thrown out of an Alliance friendly bar in an episode after starting a friendly punchup?

Yes, yes he did. In the very first episode. My understanding from the ep.
is that he does this every Unification Day -- puts on a brown coat and walks into an Alliance Bar, then punches out the local Alliance vets. A little bitter, I think.

I think Jayne and Mal both qualify as Rednecks, since they're both blue-collar and from back-of-the-woods places. Book might also qualify because he moved to such a place to retire, even though he's probably not a country boy originally.

Hmm .. if the objective is to escape the fight undamaged before the White Hats arrive, my money is on Mal and the crew of Serenity. Because although Chewie is a much better melee fighter, he's also more conspicuous. Which means he's probably going to attract the attention of the entire bar while Mal and co. make an exit.

Also, after the escape, I suspect a lot more people will be able to describe a wookie to the police than five nondescript humans.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Brother Oni

2009-12-16, 09:18 AM

...and that's where the mind reading and hyped up situational awareness comes in. She knows when she's got a safe second to deliver a kick to the head without being stopped.

While I’m more than willing to chalk up her combat prowess to effective training, Bene Gesserit levels of total body muscle control and psychic ability, I don’t think telepathy is the main ability she’s using in combat.

While you may be thinking about what you’re going to do, once you’re actually in combat, thinking takes too long and all actions tend to be reflexive, bypassing the thinking and judgement part of the brain.

It’s why you’re taught when handling guns to always keep your finger off the trigger when running around – that split second it takes you longer to pull the trigger allows you to assess the situation and not shoot something you shouldn’t (plus you avoid accidental knocks to your hand).

Maybe River has a limited form of precognition, which is tied into her hyped up situation awareness?

Of course since we’re bringing Firefly into the Star Wars universe, I guess that’d make River a Force adept of some sort, since she hasn’t got the training to be a Jedi.

jlvm4

2009-12-16, 09:22 AM

Zoe has killed with her blade before (see The Message). Only rednecks have “friendly” fights, and no one on the Firefly crew is a redneck.

I think you are giving Mal and his crew a blood-lust they don't necessarily have. They do get into 'friendly' bar fights. Take the U-day fight for example. If they were as bent on survival at all costs as you imply, not only would weapons have been drawn and used earlier (Wash came to the rescue instead), there would have been a much higher body count. I'm not sure anyone died in that fight, and there there was a legitimate enough threat that had Mal and the gang wanted to kill they could have.

Even when they do kill to survive, it's a much higher definition of survivial. In the train job, their lives were in very real danger if the messenger didn't go back to Niska with the goods and the appropriate message. So we know that they can, but they don't, not in every bar fight to come along the pike.

Han and Chewy also seem more than capable of getting into a 'friendly' bar fight without feeling the need to fight dirty. What's the phrase 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'? Something like that anyway. Smugglers succeed based on judging people and situations, including when and where to escalate from 'friendly' to deadly. The terms of the challenge implied friendly, so by those rules whether or not Zoe could hamstring Chewie would have to yield to the simple fact that she wouldn't hamstring Chewie, not unless there was a fundamental shift in the tone of the fight.

Hadessniper

2009-12-16, 09:51 AM

While I’m more than willing to chalk up her combat prowess to effective training, Bene Gesserit levels of total body muscle control and psychic ability, I don’t think telepathy is the main ability she’s using in combat.

While you may be thinking about what you’re going to do, once you’re actually in combat, thinking takes too long and all actions tend to be reflexive, bypassing the thinking and judgement part of the brain.

It’s why you’re taught when handling guns to always keep your finger off the trigger when running around – that split second it takes you longer to pull the trigger allows you to assess the situation and not shoot something you shouldn’t (plus you avoid accidental knocks to your hand).

Maybe River has a limited form of precognition, which is tied into her hyped up situation awareness?

Of course since we’re bringing Firefly into the Star Wars universe, I guess that’d make River a Force adept of some sort, since she hasn’t got the training to be a Jedi.

I think it's pretty clear the River's cognitive processing speed is well above average naturally and more then likely boosted to superhuman levels by the experiments done to her. All of her senses and mental abilities have been overclocked to work at a much faster speeds.

I would say her fighting skill is due to a combination of fast reaction times, a higher level of situational awareness, and mind reading ability. There is anecdotal evidence for her having a form of precognition, such as when she sensed the fireball coming in 'out of gas'. Although that could be explained by heightened senses detecting changes in temperature, air presser, and the like.

I wouldn't credit her with true precognition as it seems a bit too supernatural, if she did have a form of precognition it would just be her brain computing probable outcomes based on situation, her advanced knowledge of physics, and past actions.

Sholos

2009-12-16, 11:03 AM

Hmm .. if the objective is to escape the fight undamaged before the White Hats arrive, my money is on Mal and the crew of Serenity. Because although Chewie is a much better melee fighter, he's also more conspicuous. Which means he's probably going to attract the attention of the entire bar while Mal and co. make an exit.
He may attract the attention of the bar, but it's going to be a "Oh crap, get away getawaygetaway!" kind of attention. No one's going to want to be near him in the middle of a fight, except extremely drunk people.

Also, after the escape, I suspect a lot more people will be able to describe a wookie to the police than five nondescript humans.
Big, hairy, has fangs. I think most humans are going to be better at describing other humans than they are at describing a wookie. Think about it. Can you reliably tell different bears apart? That question is based on the assumption that you do not regularly interact with bears. I fso, please insert some other larger mammal that you are unfamiliar with.

Dervag

2009-12-16, 11:13 AM

Big, hairy, has fangs. I think most humans are going to be better at describing other humans than they are at describing a wookie. Think about it. Can you reliably tell different bears apart? That question is based on the assumption that you do not regularly interact with bears. I fso, please insert some other larger mammal that you are unfamiliar with.Thing is, humans far outnumber Wookiees on almost every planet in the galaxy except their homeworld. Saying "it was a Wookiee" is a much more informative description than "it was a man between 1.7 and 1.8 meters tall, brown hair, blue eyes, long brown duster." There are a LOT more men matching the first description than there are Wookiees, especially if Mal takes off the coat.

So while I may not be able to describe Chewie in terms that would distinguish him from any other Wookiee on the planet, I can describe him in terms that identify him far more effectively than any description I'm likely to be able to give of Mal, Zoe, or Jayne. Or, for that matter, Han.

Dienekes

2009-12-16, 11:20 AM

Zoe has killed with her blade before (see The Message). Only rednecks have “friendly” fights, and no one on the Firefly crew is a redneck.

Well folk, you heard it here first. I somehow have become a redneck, even though I don't think I've ever been to any of the southern states, or even the countryside. I don't think I need to explain further that your statement is contradictory and a logical fallacy.

Keshay

2009-12-16, 11:51 AM

Chewbacca can handle himself well enough against random storm troopers. Experienced combatants refusing to fight fair will likely make short work of him. I regret to inform you Wookies are a nearly extinct Shola species. Google it yourself – I’m not your research lackey.

Wow, this is terrific example of absolutely horrible internet research.

What was done here is he Googled "Wookie Extinct" and looked at the first topic that came up, then reposted that tidbit of information, which was this: "Wookieepedia - Wookie: Extinct Shola species".

Unfortunately, he failed to follow the link, and having zero prior knowlege on how Wookieepedia articles are named, failed to realize that they all start with "Wookie". By this same logic Wookies are also T-65 X-wing starfighters, Holographic Zoos of Extinct Animals, and apparently Tatooine...

Great job backing up a claim, and judging from this example there is a very good reason you're no one's research lackey.

Adlan

2009-12-16, 12:11 PM

Upon having a Beer, I reflect.

Mal and Han are drinking in a Bar.

Mal: Hey Dad.... Long time no see

Han: Hey Son... Been what? 3 prequals now?

Mal: I reckon it is.

Han: Yup... Heard your planet got blewed up

Mal: Same as to your wife's, ain't it.

Han: Most like.

Finish Beers in Manly Silence.

Both return to their ships.

Kaylee: Cap'n, why we come to this crap hole? Ain't even got cortex.

Mal: They serve their beers with little pink umbrela's and cherry's, I like cherry's. Now fire up the engines.

GreyVulpine

2009-12-16, 02:02 PM

Doing a little extra reading on the pilot episode of Firefly, "Serenity", you can apparently see an easter egg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_(Firefly_episode)#Cultural_and_literary_a llusions). There's a lambda-class shuttle that takes off (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/f/f5/Lambda_shuttle_on_Firefly.jpg) as Inara docks her shuttle.

So, you never know, Firefly might already be flying somewhere in the SW universe :smalltongue:

chiasaur11

2009-12-16, 02:17 PM

Well, a Firefly class was seen above Caprica. The long time ago could be dealt with that way...

GreyVulpine

2009-12-16, 02:24 PM

Well, a Firefly class was seen above Caprica. The long time ago could be dealt with that way...

"Caprica"? I've never come across that planet in any of the expanded star wars universe settings. List from wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Wars_planets_(C-D)) doesn't include it either, unless you're talking about the spinoff (http://www.freebase.com/view/en/new_caprica) of BSG.

Rogue 7

2009-12-16, 02:52 PM

Definitely BSG. It was an easter egg in the miniseries.

Solaris

2009-12-16, 04:30 PM

I think you are giving Mal and his crew a blood-lust they don't necessarily have. They do get into 'friendly' bar fights. Take the U-day fight for example. If they were as bent on survival at all costs as you imply, not only would weapons have been drawn and used earlier (Wash came to the rescue instead), there would have been a much higher body count. I'm not sure anyone died in that fight, and there there was a legitimate enough threat that had Mal and the gang wanted to kill they could have.

I'm going to have to back this up. They really don't seem the type to leap right to shooting.
Han, on the other hand...

GreyVulpine

2009-12-16, 04:45 PM

I'm going to have to back this up. They really don't seem the type to leap right to shooting.
Han, on the other hand...

Sure, but they seem to be the ones to instigate fights. See "The Train Job", at unification day, and "Shindig", where Mal steals from the slavetrader.

Now, maybe we don't see it, but there's a unwritten rule where you're not allowed to bring in weapons into a bar? See the movie where the crew had to lock up their weapons in storage lockers before entering a bar.

Dervag

2009-12-16, 10:50 PM

On the other hand, I got the impression that that place was about one step up in classiness (or at least the pretense of class) than the places they usually frequent. Somewhere between a bar and a club.

Philistine

2009-12-17, 12:03 AM

At hyperdrive speeds, turnaround time is a factor too; I'd call it more like three to five because of that. You have to spend time on each planet lining up supplies, loading the goods, and faking the paperwork, and that cuts into the time you can spend physically moving stuff. Moreover, that time is not related to how fast your ship is...
The time required for some of those tasks may, however, be related to the size of your ship. A smaller ship which carries less cargo may be much faster to load and unload.

Meanwhile, items like "lining up supplies" and "faking the paperwork" may or may not be necessary. Or rather, they may be problems which can be solved one time and afterward assumed (as by finding a regular supplier, since the question stipulates that Our Heroes are settling down into a regular run), or which can be dumped on others (if you can avoid Customs inspections, then the buyer may need forged documentation to prove ownership of the goods, but you don't).

Even without any of that, though, the superior performance of the Falcon would not only see her traveling faster, but also taking a more direct route by punching through situations which Serenity would have to detour around. With the speed differential, it wouldn't take all that much additional distance to turn that "three or five" back into "four or six."

He may not be skilled, but he is effective; I call him a skilled brawler because, empirically, he's good at brawling. That doesn't mean he has extensive formal training in hand to hand combat, but he's good at it anyway. There are people out there who have not formally trained in unarmed combat but are still very dangerous, not just because they're big but because they're experienced and they pick up tricks informally. Jayne seems to be one of those.
I agree that Jayne is an effective brawler; I don't agree that we must conclude from this that he is skilled. He's good at capitalizing on his physical advantages, yes - but what happens when he isn't the toughest hombre in the room?

That remark wasn't really directed at you, though. I primarily intended that as a response to a number of mostly much earlier posts (for example this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7481414&postcount=16), or this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7483215&postcount=23)) which claimed that the crew of Serenity would clean up in the Barroom Brawl event due to their superior skill, by asking where we actually see them demonstrate such skill in hand-to-hand fighting. In particular, we appear to have some consensus that Jayne is the most effective brawler on Mal's crew - that he'd have better than even odds against Zoe, and would be nearly certain to thump Mal - and yet what we see of Jayne's fighting style doesn't really indicate extraordinary skill so much as extraordinary physicality. Hence my bemusement at such claims.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 12:15 AM

If wookies were as super-strong as some of you imagine – and yes, the operative word is imagine – then why hasn’t Chewbacca accidently torn the flight controls of the Millennium Falcon to shreds during an adrenalin-charged space battle?

I’ve been in real-world battles myself, and I can tell you from first-hand experience fragile things break easily. A beast with gorilla-strength is going to be snapping some knobs and breaking some levers without even trying.

I think some of you have exaggerated how strong wookies are.

Texas_Ben

2009-12-17, 12:37 AM

...the crew of Serenity would clean up in the Barroom Brawl event due to their superior skill, by asking where we actually see them demonstrate such skill in hand-to-hand fighting.
As previously pointed out, Jayne took out two armed guards while handcuffed with a little help from Simon. That speaks of a pretty good amount of talent. I don't know how far talent would get you against a wookie, as they are stronger than any human (as someone else said, ape strong... I don't know about gorilla strong, but I would imagine that they are Orangutan-strong (they even look like Orangutans), and with much longer reach.

Dervag

2009-12-17, 12:42 AM

...I underline too many words, don't I?

The time required for some of those tasks may, however, be related to the size of your ship. A smaller ship which carries less cargo may be much faster to load and unload.This is true. On the other hand, Serenity has an onboard cargo vehicle and a large loading ramp for easy offloading; unloading the Falcon could be a bit more challenging.

Meanwhile, items like "lining up supplies" and "faking the paperwork" may or may not be necessary. Or rather, they may be problems which can be solved one time and afterward assumed (as by finding a regular supplier, since the question stipulates that Our Heroes are settling down into a regular run), or which can be dumped on others (if you can avoid Customs inspections, then the buyer may need forged documentation to prove ownership of the goods, but you don't).This is true to a point, but historical experience makes me very skeptical of the idea that a ship can run from point to point without significant turnaround time for servicing, refueling, paperwork, buyers looking at cargo, etc., etc., etc...

Even without any of that, though, the superior performance of the Falcon would not only see her traveling faster, but also taking a more direct route by punching through situations which Serenity would have to detour around. With the speed differential, it wouldn't take all that much additional distance to turn that "three or five" back into "four or six."Now here you have a point.

I agree that Jayne is an effective brawler; I don't agree that we must conclude from this that he is skilled. He's good at capitalizing on his physical advantages, yes - but what happens when he isn't the toughest hombre in the room?A very legitimate point. I suspect that Jayne is... not unskilled, if you define "skill" in terms of dirty tricks, situational awareness, and other things you can learn from experience by getting into a lot of fights. In terms of precise movement, not wasting effort, knowing counters to specific types of attacks? There's not much evidence of him being skilled in those areas.
________

If wookies were as super-strong as some of you imagine – and yes, the operative word is imagine – then why hasn’t Chewbacca accidently torn the flight controls of the Millennium Falcon to shreds during an adrenalin-charged space battle?The flight controls could be sturdier than you are assuming. Chewbacca could be good at retaining his fine motor control in a crisis.

This strikes me as another example of a counterargument much weaker than the argument it seeks to topple. We see Chewbacca perform significantly superhuman feats of strength, both in the movies and in various other stories in the setting. The idea that such strength would guarantee that he'd clumsily break levers in an emergency is... not good enough.

I’ve been in real-world battles myself, and I can tell you from first-hand experience fragile things break easily.Could you be more specific as to what you experienced and when?

As previously pointed out, Jayne took out two armed guards while handcuffed with a little help from Simon. That speaks of a pretty good amount of talent. I don't know how far talent would get you against a wookie, as they are stronger than any human (as someone else said, ape strong... I don't know about gorilla strong, but I would imagine that they are Orangutan-strong (they even look like Orangutans), and with much longer reach.I think gorilla strong would be an extreme upper bound.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 01:50 AM

Texas_Ben

2009-12-17, 02:17 AM

Is this where I get labeled an Internet Tough Guy? I was benching 415lbs before I broke my arm. I’m benching 335lbs now and getting stronger. I weigh 260lbs with 15% body fat.

I’m well-known at our boxing club for breaking even sturdy equipment. I’ve snapped the chains holding our heavy bags several times. I don’t try, mind you.

One time at work I thought the front door was stuck. It was locked. Now it’s broken. That was the first and last time the boss ever locked our door.

The worst-timed case of my breaking something in battle was when I was in charge of the SRBOC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_36_SRBOC) launcher on the USS Elliot. I destroyed the key when I tried to unlock the ammunition locker (further details here (http://stealthdozer.livejournal.com/483235.html)). I’d unlocked the locker easily during drills, but when General Quarters was sounded one night and we went to Battle Stations my adrenalin surged unfortunately.

Anyone here familiar with David Haye (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/6522431/David-Haye-beats-giant-Nikolai-Valuev-to-win-WBA-heavyweight-title.html) versus Nikolai Valuev? The big Russian is 7’2”, 316lbs. Briton David Haye is 6’3”, 218lbs. Last month Haye destroyed Valuev and took his belt.

All of these things mentioned are situations in which it is appropriate to use force-- boxing equipment, stuck doors, etc. Just because he's strong doesn't mean he isn't capable of restraining himself. When you're in a stressful situation it makes sense to use more force than might be necessary in a situation requiring some amounts of force, but piloting a starfighter isn't one of them. I'm sure that there are plenty of buff pilots out there, capable of breaking a plane's instruments... but they don't go breaking them anytime they're in a stressful situation.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 02:26 AM

Did you even read the paragraph beginning with "The worst-timed case of my breaking something in battle was when I was in charge of the SRBOC launcher on the USS Elliot"?

Things break accidently in the best of circumstances when one is strong, and battle isn't the best of circumstances.

Yoren

2009-12-17, 02:30 AM

Valuev isn't a very good fighter and I wouldn't say Haye destroyed him. I watched it on the net and it was pretty close. Hayes used a lot of movement to avoid getting hit but that'd be a lot harder if the guy can just grab you and ragdoll you all over the place rather than having to box you. Just look at the last Penn vs GSP fight where Penn just got smothered. Having said that Haye does deserve credit for hanging in there with a dude that big. Now if he would only fight one of the Klitschko . . .

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 02:35 AM

You don't say Haye destroyed Valuev. The judges, however, decided he did. I happen to agree with them.

Valuev was the champ.

Dervag

2009-12-17, 02:40 AM

Is this where I get labeled an Internet Tough Guy?Not necessarily, but if you prefer not to be, it's easier when you don't to start off with declarations about how everyone else isn't being bloody-minded enough. While not everyone who talks that way is an Internet Tough Guy, a lot of them are.

One time at work I thought the front door was stuck. It was locked. Now it’s broken. That was the first and last time the boss ever locked our door.

The worst-timed case of my breaking something in battle was when I was in charge of the SRBOC launcher on the USS Elliot. I destroyed the key when I tried to unlock the ammunition locker (further details here). I’d unlocked the locker easily during drills, but when General Quarters was sounded one night and we went to Battle Stations my adrenalin surged unfortunately.In your experience, does this happen to everyone in your strength class? I suspect it varies from person to person, and I'd be amazed if it didn't vary from species to species.

Put another way, if you're capable of breaking a key on an ammunition locker, you're probably capable of breaking controls on an instrument panel. But while you are certainly strong, I kind of doubt that you would be stronger than Chewbacca... who doesn't. Either Chewbacca is less strong than you, so that he can't break controls, or he just doesn't break controls by accident when he's stressed out. Or at least we haven't seen him do it in the relatively few battles we've seen him fight.

Anyone here familiar with David Haye (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/boxingandmma/6522431/David-Haye-beats-giant-Nikolai-Valuev-to-win-WBA-heavyweight-title.html) versus Nikolai Valuev? The big Russian is 7’2”, 316lbs. Briton David Haye is 6’3”, 218lbs. Last month Haye destroyed Valuev and took his belt.[/COLOR]Things like that happen, but while Haye and Jayne may be in the same weight and strength class (though I imagine Haye is far more skilled at boxing, and quite possibly at generalized hand to hand fighting)... that doesn't mean Valuev is as strong as Chewbacca would be.

There's a limit on how big the disparity can get before it makes relative skill nearly irrelevant; weight classes exist for a reason. Especially when the skill in question isn't world-class, but is merely "good"... as is the case with the crew of Serenity. None of them are likely to win any Olympic gold medals in unarmed combat, even if they're good enough to be better than most of the people around them.

Yoren

2009-12-17, 02:52 AM

You don't say Haye destroyed Valuev. The judges, however, decided he did. I happen to agree with them.

Valuev was the champ.

116-112 twice, 114-114 not exactly a blow out.

EDIT: British Newspaper (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/07/david-haye-nikolai-valuev-title-fight) had it a draw as well.

This blog (http://boxing.fanhouse.com/2009/11/07/nikolay-valuev-vs-david-haye-live-round-by-round-updates/) had Haye with a 1 pt win.

He's a belt holder but he if you for one sec believe he was the heavy weight champ of the world . . . well I don't know what to tell you. Maybe watch his Holyfield fight? Or the one he lost to Ruslan Chagaev who 4 months later got knocked out by Wladimir Klitschko.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 02:53 AM

In my experience strong people destroy things when stressed by battle. This includes knobs, levers, dials, etc.

I didn't destroy just keys. I wouldn't carry a radio when I was on VBSS for similar reasons.

Other strong people - when exposed to stress - have accidently destroyed equipment too. Sometimes it's funny, most time's it's a bother. Once in a while it's not funny at all.

I'm not saying Chewy isn't strong - he clearly is. I suspect some posters have overestimated how strong he is. Even at chimp-strength he'd likely be a menace on board a ship, let alone at the controls.

Yoren: I never said Valuev was the heavyweight champion of the world. Specifically he was the two time WBA heavyweight champion (source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Valuev)). Haye staggered Valuev in round 12. Valuev usually wins.

Yoren

2009-12-17, 03:25 AM

He was the WBA Champ . . . great. Who has he beat that's any good? Just cause you win all your fights doesn't mean you're good, just like losing a fight doesn't mean you're terrible.

Plus those belts are joke, he didn't even beat the guy who beat him to regain the "championship". Chagaev had to pull out with an injury and he fought . . . John Ruiz; who Chagaev beat to get his shot Valuev. So Valuev beat the guy who lost to the guy who he lost to. Not exactly a shining path to the belt. Then to make matters worse Chagaev got beaten to a pulp by Wladimir Klitschko.

Just so I don't get too of topic . . .maybe the ship is made out of strong stuff than your keys? Or perhaps Wookies are Zen and calm even in the face of great peril? Maybe Chewie has a hormone deficiency so he produces reduced amounts of adrenaline? Maybe wookies have great fine motor skills?

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-17, 03:29 AM

Except he doesn't. We've seen him fly a ship, we have evidence that he doesn't break controls when flying under pressure. So either he's more Zen than you, and other humans who have broken equipment, or you're stronger than Chewie. And well, you go out and try flinging around a bunch of stormtroopers like rag dolls (which we have also seen him do), and see how it works for you. As some poster said before, this isn't a boxing match. Chewie isn't limited to having to punch Jayne. He could quite literally pick him up and throw him through the bar. Especially if Jayne tries to whack him with a bar first.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 03:39 AM

Yoren: Like I said, Valuev was the champ. Why are you still whining about it, and why are you pissing all over other people’s achievements? So you don’t think much of the belts or the fighters that earn them? Got it.

Kid Kris: You do know Chewie isn't real, right? What I’m saying is his imagined strength has been exaggerated.

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-17, 03:44 AM

Jayne isn't real too. This is a fight between imaginary* people, with imaginary* strengths and weakness. If we're going to make things more 'realistic', why don't we get rid of the spaceships? Make Han and Mal boat captains.

*Insert spooooooky hand wiggling where appropriate.

Yoren

2009-12-17, 03:45 AM

Mainly cause I love boxing and the multiple belts and the stupidity and greed of the sanctioning organizations is messing up the sport. I'm old school in that there is one "champ". The way it is now they're giving out belts to anyone who's willing to pay a sanctioning fee. Its not little league you shouldn't get a trophy just for coming to the game.

Stealthdozer

2009-12-17, 03:52 AM

Yoren: Why not make "What's Wrong With Boxing?" another thread?

Kid Kris: Are you familiar with Cracked? Check out #6: Super-Strength (http://www.cracked.com/article_17185_7-awesome-super-powers-ruined-by-science.html).

Dervag

2009-12-17, 03:52 AM

Kid Kris: You do know Chewie isn't real, right? What I’m saying is his imagined strength has been exaggerated.Yes, but your argument (if he were actually that strong he couldn't help but break stuff) is inadequate compared to the thing you're trying to disprove. There are several ways to explain an extremely strong Chewie not breaking stuff, or at least not breaking it very often. And there are very few ways to explain other feats of strength attributed to Chewie without having him be extremely strong.

That second part is important- if you want to say that a character isn't as strong as X, you not only need to show that if they were as strong as X then he'd do Y, but that they don't need to be as strong as X in order to do A, B, and C (which they supposedly can).

Kid Kris: Are you familiar with Cracked? Check out #6: Super-Strength (http://www.cracked.com/article_17185_7-awesome-super-powers-ruined-by-science.html).That's talking about Superman-level strength, which is, I agree, kind of dumb for the reasons the article describes. Ape-level strength is a different ball game; it's possible to break stuff easily enough, but it doesn't become necessary or inevitable, in the sense that Superman would inevitably wind up embedded in the nose cone of a jumbo jet he tried to catch.

In fact, I'm kind of surprised you brought up an example that has so little to do with what happens at the level of strength everyone here is actually talking about. It didn't really improve your argument.

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-17, 03:59 AM

...
...
The ship hovers with no visible means of propulsion, and can travel faster than light, and you're worried that the pilot's strength defies science. Really.

Yoren

2009-12-17, 04:11 AM

I posted a list of reasons why Chewie might not react in the way you described, but you only responded to the boxing comments. Call me crazy but I responded to what you wrote.

DMfromTheAbyss

2009-12-17, 04:21 AM

A few points.

About Chewbacca (or anyone who is strong enough) breaking controls under stress: Not everyone has the same (loss of) motor control and level of reaction when under stress. Some I've known get better control when in combat situations, though I must admit I myself do not. It's all a matter of how well you control your strength, not just a matter of if you have it you always use it for everything.

As an example, I'm not the strongest guy out there, but when I open a small bag of potato chips, they tend to go flying as my level of control is a bit on the low side unfortunately, several of my friends who are considerably larger and stronger have no such problems... Some people are naturally clutzy and can do considerable damage (to themeselves and their environment) by lack of coordination and not knowing how to control their strength in a given situation. Other's exhibit extreme control and with training and discipline anyone can further refine their ability to control their strength. Saying everyone will react under presure the same way is patently false with human beings.. nevermind the whole alien thing.

Making generalizations about fictional alien races and cultures is a endevor frought with logical peril. All we can generally do is go by whatever acceptable media we have and guestimate from there. Chewbacca the Wookie is seen piloting in combat situations without anything (much) breaking. He is also seen taking several full adult human beings in stormtrooper armor and tossing them equivilent to a strong adult tossing about a small dog or house cat. Can this be reconciled a bit easier than most things we see in the movies..( hyper drive, the Force, poorly explained starship mechanics) certainly. Especially when it's coming from a race that practices such self control, that even in life or death combat they refuse to use their claws for self defence (this is mentioned in several books and KOTOR). Yes wookies have very combat effective claws.. no they wouldn't be used in this bar brawl, but they speak well for wookie's self control when dealing with small squishy human beings, or cockpit controls.

Also we never have much in the way of tensile strength knoledge when it comes to the Falcon's controls. For all we know they are built to withstand the angry wookie outburst. Which is no more a stretch than them having transparisteel canopies which would clearly not work without having something like several orders of magnitude better technology for dealing with pressure and damage through metalurgy. Also we see the Millenium Falcon react positively to being struck, punched and general "percussive maintanance" throughout the movies, what makes anyone think the controls are fragile?

I posted above how things would go in my opinion. Per the OP's original question it would be a dead even split. Solo wins at smuggling and combat, Reynolds is frankly a nicer guy with a more reliable ship. Either would be capable of pulling considerable hijinks to save their respective captain.

If anything this contest needs another test between the two to serve as a tiebreaker. Anyone have any ideas?

Dervag

2009-12-17, 05:03 AM

Someone proposed a sixth a few pages back; I feel we need a seventh. But since my pentathlon seems to wind up being a 2.5-2.5 split, what do I know?

Ashen Lilies

2009-12-17, 05:13 AM

Scenario 7
Han and Mal are in a seedy Cantina, full of scum and villainy. They are sat at opposite ends of the table. They are talking, but eventually something happens that makes them enemies or something. The first person to shoot the other, wins. :smalltongue:

Alternatively:
Both are at opposite ends of a street, at high noon. First person to draw and shoot the other wins.

Dienekes

2009-12-17, 05:25 AM

Kid Kris: You do know Chewie isn't real, right? What I’m saying is his imagined strength has been exaggerated.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Durasteel

Part of why Chewy, or any of the other stronger aliens don't break anything. Sure, it's almost a cop out excuse (and grows even worse when we notice that Chewy might have broken handcuff's made of this monstrocity in Empire Strikes Back).

But really, this is a fictional fantasy realm, the laws of physics doesn't really apply (hell, they have faster than light travel)

Don Julio Anejo

2009-12-17, 05:31 AM

Hadessniper

2009-12-17, 06:22 AM

I propose:
#7: help a rebellion!
Not, not destroy a death star. Been there, done that as they say.

Situation: there is a small, sparsely populated planet with a tyrannical dictator and a large proportion of population that isn't happy with his rule. Needless to say, there's a conspiracy brewing to depose him. The planet is not affiliated with the Empire so no-one there is going to care if he's gone, but the Rebel Alliance probably won't send military help either. The respective crews are hired to smuggle in a load of weapons that are needed to start an open rebellion. They see him kick a puppy, and when the puppy is down on the ground, kick him some more.

They don't like it very much and decide to help with the rebellion. The planet is not very populous and the dictator's palace isn't that much bigger than Jabba the Hutt's so frontal assault isn't out of the question with the help of rebels, however the complex has some military AA guns so using the Falcon to assault it is out of the question.

Win condition: to successfully depose (or kill) the dictator using any resources at the crews disposal.

The firefly crew have a better track record with infiltrations, and are probably better strategists on the whole. So without further adieu:

Mal and Jayne get uniforms and ident chips to pose as workers in the place. When they get in they trigger a distraction to draw the guards away from an entrance, that allows Zoe to sneak a group of rebels into the palace.

Between Mal and Jayne taking their places in the place and Zoe leading the rebels in Zoe gets hurt and Sheppard Book is forced to lead the rebels, bringing up more questions about his mysterious past.

The plan goes smooth until one of the female rebels who Mal liked turns out to be a spy for the dictator. The rebels Mal Jayne and Book are arrested and a group of solders are sent to take the rest of Mal's crew in the ship. River senses the solders before they get into the med bay and gets her brother and Zoe to hide with her before they storm the ship.

As Mal and Jayne are being taken to the dictator to be interrogated they attack the guards and get their weapons and the girl who betrayed them gets killed on accident. As she lay dying we learn the dictator had her family and forced her to betray the rebels. Zoe sneaks in and frees book and the rebels and they make their way to the dictator. Mal and Jayne get to the dictator as Zoe and the rebels do and there is a huge fight and Mal ends up killing the dictator with his serious grim face on.

In the end the rebels are grateful, Mal is sad, River and Book are mysterious, Zoe and Wash are in love, Jayne is hungry, Kaylee is cheerful, and Inara is longingly looking at Mal.