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View Full Version : So. Dwarven Defender.



Vizzerdrix
2009-12-11, 03:26 PM
Okay. So I had a thought. Things just go around the DD, But if you slap a level of commoner on one and give it the weresheep flaw, when you change into a hybrid sheep you also get the tasty flaw, and things move towards you.

Altenativly, become a wereinsect(antlion) and sit at the bottom of your pit.

Anyways. just thought I'd share my thoughts

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-11, 03:28 PM
Pffft.

A Monk/Knight/DD/Drunken Master allows you to wield 100 ft ladders and smack anyone within range.

Ryumaru
2009-12-11, 03:31 PM
Without getting into the cheesetastic stuff and builds... I'd simply stick to a spear, or some other reach weapon. Lunge out at those who want to walk by you, or trip them.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-11, 03:35 PM
Both of those lack one thing. Sexy were sheepism (http://www.impawards.com/2007/posters/black_sheep_ver3.jpg).

Ryumaru
2009-12-11, 04:08 PM
'I am Grimlock Hammerbeard! Beyond these gates is the ancient and sacred Dwarven city of Keh'thalza. You shall not p-aaaaaaa-ss.'

Person_Man
2009-12-11, 04:23 PM
You could also be a Knight/Dragon Defender, and use Test of Mettle to get people to attack you. But really, like many classes and PrC that were written early in the 3.5 run, it's just plain weak sauce. There's no reason to try and save it because the fluff is interesting. Just play something else (Deepwarden Sentinel, Knight, Crusader) and call yourself a Dwarvern Defender.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-11, 04:24 PM
'I am Grimlock Hammerbeard! Beyond these gates is the ancient and sacred Dwarven city of Keh'thalza. You shall not p-aaaaaaa-ss.'

The Beardfist approves of the message.

ericgrau
2009-12-11, 05:29 PM
The easiest way to get around defensive stance is to not use it. Or deactivate it as a free action, for a very minor penalty. There really is no way to trap yourself with it. Then, without DS, compared to other core classes and prestige classes DD is pretty solid. And unless you're a tiny race that doesn't even have a 5 foot reach, you can still DS in 15 foot corridors or rooms, which are in fact quite common. Just because Gandalf doesn't move while putting up a shield that blocks a Balrog doesn't mean he's a sucky wizard for having that spell and using it once in his lifetime. It's a classic example of "Having a weak ability doesn't make a class suck, it only means the benefit of that particular ability is minor".

Or if you really feel the uncontrollable urge to optimize it, couldn't you just grab thicket of blades, a size boost and a reach weapon to form an effective barrier in most enclosed dungeons?

SurlySeraph
2009-12-11, 05:59 PM
A spiked chain lockdown build *could* work well with Dwarven Defender. The problem is that lockdown builds need a lot of feats for optimal power, and getting into DD takes three feats. And DD doesn't have much recommending it over more levels in a full-BAB base class. Defensive Stance isn't an amazingly good ability, and if you were going to use those feats for (say) Robilar's Gambit, Karmic Strike, and Stand Still, taking DD weakens you. Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense aren't terribly valuable. The damage reduction is nice in theory, but you don't get it until ECL 13. And at that point, you're probably not going to be fighting enemies who do lots of little attacks. Dwarven Defender just doesn't add anything very important, and it costs a lot to get into.

Kantolin
2009-12-11, 06:08 PM
Perhaps a Psychic Warrior / Dwarven Defender?

Or a Psychic Warrior / Slayer / Dwarven Defender, perhaps. Regardless, that would get you expansion and a couple other useful buffs, and then you could defensive stance with a reach weapon and enjoy plenty and plenty of reach.

jiriku
2009-12-11, 06:16 PM
I approve of your plan to become a delicous leg of mutton in a defensive stance. In fact, I'd like to invite you to dinner.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-11, 08:04 PM
A Monk/Knight/DD/Drunken Master allows you to wield 100 ft ladders and smack anyone within range.

... I know what my next character is.

Hurlbut
2009-12-11, 08:37 PM
I like the spirit of Dwarven Defender, the actual execution not so much friendly outside dungeons and dwarven delvings. So I tweaked it and posted it in Homebrew board.

ericgrau
2009-12-11, 09:36 PM
Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense aren't terribly valuable. The damage reduction is nice in theory, but you don't get it until ECL 13.
Never hurt the barbarian to have those. I meant having two good saves, including will, full BAB, d12 HD and an AC bonus. How many core full BAB classes do you know with two good saves? Then on top of all that you get the minor stuff. Yeah, I'll bet lots of non-core stuff is better than DD and everything else core. But, apples-to-apples y'know

And pleeease. "Trap sense". No one ever pokes fun at the barbarian for trap sense and they're right to ignore it on any class. It's not even worth mentioning unless you have some kind of grudge.

Gametime
2009-12-12, 12:12 AM
The easiest way to get around defensive stance is to not use it. Or deactivate it as a free action, for a very minor penalty. There really is no way to trap yourself with it. Then, without DS, compared to other core classes and prestige classes DD is pretty solid. And unless you're a tiny race that doesn't even have a 5 foot reach, you can still DS in 15 foot corridors or rooms, which are in fact quite common. Just because Gandalf doesn't move while putting up a shield that blocks a Balrog doesn't mean he's a sucky wizard for having that spell and using it once in his lifetime. It's a classic example of "Having a weak ability doesn't make a class suck, it only means the benefit of that particular ability is minor".

Or if you really feel the uncontrollable urge to optimize it, couldn't you just grab thicket of blades, a size boost and a reach weapon to form an effective barrier in most enclosed dungeons?

The problem is that the rest of the abilities the DD offers really aren't spectacular either. The damage reduction is meh. The AC bonus is decent, as such things go. Uncanny Dodge and Improved are decent for fighter types. But the class requires three pretty terrible feats to enter, and most base classes that could enter easily have better class features.

Knights have abilities that complement that DD's basic role, but gets better class features for that role by staying in class. Fighters can easily scrounge up the prereq feats, and probably benefit the most from entering, but even nothing but bonus feats is arguably better than the DD's features.

The problem with the DD isn't that Defensive Stance is weak. It's that Defensive Stance is weak, and is still one of the best features of the class. That doesn't work well when it has so many prerequisites.

Koury
2009-12-12, 12:20 AM
I've considered making DD a base class a few times, maybe adding in the prereqs as class features at various levels. But thats cuz I like the DD fluff. *shrug*

tyckspoon
2009-12-12, 12:52 AM
And pleeease. "Trap sense". No one ever pokes fun at the barbarian for trap sense and they're right to ignore it on any class. It's not even worth mentioning unless you have some kind of grudge.

Or unless you're about to trade it off for an ACF with an actual function. If your DM is willing to consider feature-equivalencies, you could get some interesting stuff into a Dwarven Defender that way.

ericgrau
2009-12-12, 01:15 AM
I like how I respond to a post then someone ignores everything in it ad immediately says the exact same thing as the last guy. Just saying. (Not you tyck)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-12, 01:31 AM
Listing only things that don't cancel out from a Barb 10 entry, assuming the Barb has Rage up every serious combat.
Barbarian levels 11-20 gains:+2 morale to Will
3 additional Rage uses
+4 Str/Con
DR 3
+4 Will v. Enchantment
Trap Sense +3
2 skill points per level
DD gains:+4 Will
DR 6
Trap Sense +2
Defensive Stance(+2 Str, +4 Con, +2 resistance to saves, +4 Dodge to AC, cannot move more than a 5' step for the duration without suffering -2 str)+3 DR, +2 will when raging(+4 when not), and Defensive Stance, at the cost of taking Dodge/Endurance/Toughness and losing Greater and Mighty Rage(plus some incidental stuff). If Defensive Stance was better, that would be fine, but it isn't. Were it not for the feats, I could see taking it, but with them, it's just too expensive.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-12, 02:15 AM
I approve of your plan to become a delicous leg of mutton in a defensive stance. In fact, I'd like to invite you to dinner.

I accept! Now to make a mint jelly ooze companion

Lycanthromancer
2009-12-12, 02:19 AM
I accept! Now to make a mint jelly ooze companionI'd rather have a pudding cake.

Chocolate, preferably.
Oh, the cake is a lie.

Pity.

Animato
2009-12-12, 03:56 AM
I find that actually Dwarven Defender is one of the better and stronger five PrC in every 3.5 D&d publication.
Why? Because I play a role-playing game, not an intellectual exercize finalized to build the most awesome munchkin-style pile of statistics.
Playing that game Dwarven Defender is almost perfect, because if you want role-play the stout, grumpy, granitic, fearless piece of stone that's the classic Dwarf warrior and defender of the clanhold this is your PrC.

Seriously, why a Dwarf would worry about mobility if it's likely to spend his entire multi-century existance in tight underground corridors and rooms (or tunnels, vents etc.) and his work is, as someone in this thread knows well, shout ''You shall not pass!'' shield by shield with his comerades (Dwarfs are cooperative, not as that ego-maniac of Gandalf) standing at some choke point just outside of their beloved dwarven community, facing hordes of muscled, clawed, howling idiots that happen to have as main siege strategy ''We strong. We many. We eat Dwarf guts. Waaaagh!!!'' ?
(Long, complex sentence, please forgive me if it can't be understood, english isn't my language)

Dwarfs tactics alwais involves hammering the enemy in thight fights taking advantage of their ability to resist and switch between the role of hammer and anvil, they also like to build their fortifications thinking about things as collapsable bridges, tunnels or floors, numerous choke points one behind the other, secret passages to trap the enemy in them etc.

As a result of all that and much more you can say a Dwarf is actually made to stand still in the fight and crush anything that comes to range, his friends will be his insurance that he will not be surrounded.
So every class ability of Dwarven Defender feels good to who wants to role-play a real macho Dwarf, and bad to everyone else.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-12, 04:12 AM
1: Stormwind.
2: Roleplay is easier when my characters survive more than 3 sessions.
3: You can get the same fluff out of a straight Fighter. Or Crusader. Or Cleric.
4: Optimization/=Powergaming/=Munchkin
5: I'm not talking about non-optimized, I'm talking about sucky. It's a step down from Barbarian, a Tier 4 class. That's bad.
6: Please lay of the insulting tone, it'll make people more likely to listen to your posts.

Superglucose
2009-12-12, 04:18 AM
2: Roleplay is easier when my characters survive more than 3 sessions.
You know what's funny? Recently there was a member of our group that gave up creating backgrounds for his characters because they kept dying. I really want to point out that it's because he's playing Monk/Soulknife/Wizard multiclass characters, but I feel like that'd be rude.

Or staying within range of a Grizzley at level 2 with exactly 1 HP remaining. That wasn't very smart either.

Or staying in a locked room with the BBEG and refusing to hit back. That was pretty idiotic as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-12, 04:31 AM
Uncanny Dodge is exceedingly valuable for any 'tank', because it eliminates first-round killshot with precision-based damage output. Retaining Dex bonus to AC is not really that important, at most a +3, but avoiding Sneak Attacks? That's nice.

Trap Sense sucks. Yes.

DR 6/- is pretty decent. Sure, damage is gonna go through, but it's that much more damage he's not taking. Combine that with something like Stone Power for an extra 10 temp hit points a round, and some levels in Crusader, and you've got a decent amount of damage you aren't taking every round.

Also, ToB had some feats which 'counted' as the listed prerequsite feats, which were actually worth taking.

It's not what it can do by itself, it's what it can do in conjunction with everything else.

Solaris
2009-12-12, 04:50 AM
I've considered making DD a base class a few times, maybe adding in the prereqs as class features at various levels. But thats cuz I like the DD fluff. *shrug*

ACFs for the Knight.

Grumman
2009-12-12, 04:55 AM
I've considered making DD a base class a few times, maybe adding in the prereqs as class features at various levels. But thats cuz I like the DD fluff. *shrug*
Just go for a Dwarf Crusader with 2 levels in Deepwarden that specialises in the Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon schools. That will give you all the HP you'd ever want, and all the AC you'd ever want, and bonuses when you stand still from Stone Dragon stances.

Animato
2009-12-12, 04:58 AM
1: Stormwind.
2: Roleplay is easier when my characters survive more than 3 sessions.
3: You can get the same fluff out of a straight Fighter. Or Crusader. Or Cleric.
4: Optimization/=Powergaming/=Munchkin
5: I'm not talking about non-optimized, I'm talking about sucky. It's a step down from Barbarian, a Tier 4 class. That's bad.
6: Please lay of the insulting tone, it'll make people more likely to listen to your posts.

Hey, no need to be so touchy :smallsmile:
I wasn't insulting anyone, only expressing my point of view of the endless argument ''this class/PrC/etc. sucks because with it I can't be as awesome and powerfull and optimized as I can be in other ways''.
In a role play game I find that everything expecially targeted at flavour (as the Dwarven Defender) beats mechanics fueled power every time and, if the DM makes his work properly, no one dies because he has taken flavour option in his build, adventures involve a lot of opportunities to put in efficient use PG capablities, and everything is tailored to make best use of the fluff players have put in their sheets. (aka proper background and build)

That said I don't find stupid/wrong/despicable/wathever other's point of view on the game, I simply don't agree.

Fishy
2009-12-12, 04:59 AM
You could always use the Dodge feat you use as your prerequisite and the Trap Sense you get at level 4 to qualify for Silver Key (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061106a&page=2).


Don't do this.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-12, 05:10 AM
The problem with Dwarven Defender is that it assumes too much. It assumes you won't need to move, due to favorable terrain.

Quite justifiable for dwarves in a keep. Not so much for adventurers.

If there's one thing I've learned, it's mobility and reach are probably 2 of the most important aspects of a melee combatant.

The main feature of DD sits and takes a Poo on one of those.

As such, to justify as good, it needs to have a lot to counter that.

And it doesn't.

Grumman
2009-12-12, 05:16 AM
adventures involve a lot of opportunities to put in efficient use PG capablities, and everything is tailored to make best use of the fluff players have put in their sheets.
"The orcs are charging up the pass! We can't stop them all!"
"Are ye daft!? Look! A bottleneck!"
"Oh, every week there's a bottleneck."
"Or a blockade."
"Or a doorway."

The Glyphstone
2009-12-12, 08:56 AM
The fallacies, they BURN MY EYES!

Seriously...compare the following:

1)Base Fighter with Improved Trip and a reach weapon.
2)Knight with Improved Trip and a reach weapon.
3)Fighter/Deepstone Sentinel.
4)Fighter/Dwarven Defender.

Four different mechanical ways to represent the classical archetype of 'stout, grumpy, granitic, fearless piece of stone that's the classic Dwarf warrior and defender of the clanhold'. Guess which one isn't effective in any actual combat situation outside of the conveniently located doorway/5'ft. wide bottleneck? Heck, the Deepstone Sentinel can actually make his own bottlenecks if he wants to.

What you're describing works as an NPC prestige class, which is what it should be. Unless you're running an exclusively dwarf-focused campaign based around defending a fortress from enemies (which could actually be awesome if done with sufficient Dwarf Fortress campiness, but I digress) where the hypothetical DD actually has lots of bottlenecks to stand in and 'fellow dwarves to stand shield-to-shield' with, the 'OMG I'm so RP-tastic' player is going to be sitting there in his Defensive Stance wondering why he has no influence on the battle whatsoever, as everyone, allies included, just walks around him or shoots past him. IMO, a 'real macho dwarf' isn't the one who sits there defensively with his axe and shield waiting for the enemy, it's the one who goes charging forward with said axe screaming war cries and hewing enemies into gooey chunks...which a DD can't do.