Powered Armor Free-for-all [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Mikeavelli

2009-12-11, 03:45 PM

Inspired by This Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133989)

Consider, if you will:

In 1999, in the most heavily classified action of the century, sixteen nations became aware of the growing threat of extraterrestrial activities, and banded together to form the international Extra-terrestrial Combat unit, code-named X-com.

The most advanced technology and most elite forces available to mankind were centralized into the most elite fighting force ever created. Technology centuries beyond the collective knowledge of mankind was capture, reverse-engineered, and even improved upon. At the end of the first Alien war, after the destruction of the base at Cydonia, mankind was ready to rise to new dominance.

Then the timeline split

X-com, despite consisting of only barely over a hundred individuals, was now the most powerful military and financial organization on the planet. Absolute control over alien technology allowed it to flatly ignore the concerns of its funding countries. Powered armor and base defenses designed to combat the extra-terrestrial threat made X-com bases virtually impervious to conventional military forces. The commander, who considered himself a true patriot, not to any nation or ideology, but to the defense of mankind itself, refused to allow the organization to be dismantled. When the nations of the world withdrew funding, he laughed. When they attempted to remove him by force, they failed. When they forgot he existed, he faded into the background, forgotten. X-com had agents that could overpower an entire race of psychics so powerful they no longer needed bodies, clouding the minds of a few weak-willed politicians was no challenge at all.

----

War, War never changes…

But even the commander wasn’t perfect, his resources weren’t infinite. America had taken the lion’s share of X-com resources that filtered out over the years. Fusion batteries took the place of Elerium-115, and the newly developed T-51b Powered armor was nearly as effective as the initial X-com designed. Energy cells made Laser and Plasma weaponry feasible again, just a few short years before the world’s oil supplies ran out. The resulting war over resources devastated the planet, and then the damn reds finally launched.

In the blink of an eye, the population of the planet goes from over ten billion to a few million souls, all now struggling just to survive. A few bastions of high technology survive hidden away from the rest of the world, The Brotherhood of Steel, the Enclave, and the remnants of X-com. Each individually could be the core around which society rebuilds itself, the only problem is they hate each other

The Alien threat, emboldened by Earth’s nuclear annihilation, begins to plan another invasion. X-com resources are again stretched to the limit dealing with the extraterrestrial threat, to the point where the only effect they have on the wasteland is the various UFO’s that have been inexplicably shot down over the years.

They only truly start to take an interest in the wasteland when, after Mothership Zeta arrives in orbit, a Lone Wanderer from Vault 101 single-handedly kills the entire crew of the mothership before a proper offense can be mounted. They decide to pay him a little visit, led by the very same commander than directed the first war against the Aliens, somehow still alive…

The remnants of the Enclave, understandably still upset at the Lone Wanderer, are moving in at the same time. Unknown to all, a doomsday device aboard the Alien mothership was activated just moments before the Lone Wanderer killed them all, something called a Warp Destabilizer.

Here’s where it gets weird… A gateway to the Warp open up in orbit, flooding earth with unspeakably awful psychic energy. Ley Lines, previously dormant for thousands of years, flare to life, awakening the magic of the world, and opening uncountable rifts to numerous other worlds. The most powerful of these rifts happens to open at the location of the most powerful psychic currently living on the planet, the Commander, sucking him, a small squad of X-com soldier, a small squad of Enclave soldiers, and the Lone Wanderer into their own personal hell.

A slew of other groups, brought together by equally contrived circumstances, are now the playthings of the Chaos god Tzeentch, who desires to see them battle for its own amusement. His centuries-long plot to gather together the most skilled warriors in existence is at hand.

In this battle we have:

- A squad of Chaos Marines – WH40K
- A squad of Space Marines – WH40K
- A Squad of Enclave Special Forces – Fallout
- The Lone Wanderer – Fallout
- A Glitterboy pilot – Rifts
- A Squad of elite X-com operatives
- Master Chief – Halo, just for the hell of it.

Special Rules:

- Each squad is internally loyal, but the mind-altering nature of Tzeentch’s dimension make them see each other as deadly threats, it never occurs to any group to ally with each other.
- Each group fights until all the others are dead. The last man standing is the winner.
- All the squads are equipped with weapons capable of doing MDC at least, by Rifts Rules. Their various suits of Powered Armor are effective, but will be brought down by concentrated fire.
- The Psychic powers of the X-com operatives are available. They’re incredibly powerful, but not used to fighting off the effects of Chaos, overuse of Psi will tend to result in Demonic possession.

Aaaaand BONUS ROUND:

- The X-com commander is the man who would, in the normal timeline, one day become the Emperor of Mankind.

- Feel free to throw in more powered armor \ mini-mecha troopers if I've forgotten any, which I certainly have.

Surrealistik

2009-12-11, 03:48 PM

Chaos space marines. Almost impossible to mind control due to their stupidly high Leadership and existing corruption, plus they're just hands down better at fighting than everyone else on that list except the loyalist Space Marines which they only slightly edge out.

warty goblin

2009-12-11, 03:57 PM

You need Section 8 and the Crysis dudes in there as well. In terms of conventional weapons honestly Section 8 probably takes the cake, since their standard assault rifle fires 15mm AP shells designed to bypass and wear down energy shields at 600 rounds per minute. The machine gun is even nastier, although less accurate.

Although its pretty hard to beat the guns that Nomad and Psycho are using by the end of their respective games- a guided nuke launcher and some sort of really nasty plasma gun, respectively. I realize the effective power of plasma guns varies from setting to setting, but I've taken out entire squads of KPA with a single shot, as well as downed helicopters.

Yoren

2009-12-11, 04:00 PM

First off i must ask, what kind of chaos marines (khorne berzerkers, plague marines, generic chaos marines etc) and what kind of loyalist space marines (blood angels, ultramarines, gray knights, etc)?

Secondly, the X-com squad is led by The Emperor of Mankind? As in the ruler of the Imperium to whom all loyalist marine's pledge undying devotion too and who's the most powerful psyker in the history of mankind? If so I guess I'd have to give it to the X-com guys.

Tavar

2009-12-11, 04:05 PM

You forgot Honorverse Marines/ The Cadre.

hamishspence

2009-12-11, 04:08 PM

Cap troopers in marauder armour from the Starship Troopers novel?

No mini-nukes though.

Mikeavelli

2009-12-11, 04:08 PM

That's just a bonus round idea, it pretty much overpowers every other squad single-handedly. Even considering he'd be tens of thousands of years behind on the power curve he was given for the Warhammer games, and thus not be quite so godlike as he eventually becomes.

Since Tzeentch is the one behind this, it'd probably be the Thousand Sons chapter of Chaos marines.

Normal Space Marines are whatever chapter you wish to use. The challenge, given the nature of its orchestrator, is somewhat in flux.

Chaos Marines might be able to take down every other foe individually, but in a free-for-all environment composed almost entirely of wildcards, they're not so handily the winners as you might think.

----

Come to think of it, just about EVERY faction involved has Mini-Nukes available to them... X-com has Blaster bombs, both the Fallout factions have Mini-nuke launchers, Starship Troopers do, many of the handheld weapons from the Chaos and\or Space Marines also qualify. Hell, let's have a Mini-Nuke extravaganza!

Oslecamo

2009-12-11, 04:12 PM

If chiassaur the emprah is leading Xcom, then they win. Hard. Nuff said.

If not, then it's still looking pretty good for Xcom. The spech merines will undoubtly charge madly at whatever's more nearby, while the enclave will fall back while shooting their legs to leave them stranded and then finish them off from a safe distance while they keep waving their chainswords on the ground.

Then the lone wanderer apears and kills all the enclave dudes.

Finaly, the Xcom elite descends from the safe higher ground they were hiding untill now and kill whatever's left . Because Xcom elite power armor can fly. Plus every one of them was once a man who had to kill super aliens and robots with flashlights and no armor or genetic tricks. Not even spech merines are that hardcore. But spech merines are easy to brainwash. 50% betrayal rate anyone?

Question: do all the factions start in plain sight of each other?

If not, then I bring a squad of SCV and proceed to start mining nearby resources, and overwhelm everybody else with sheer numbers!:smalltongue:

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-11, 04:16 PM

Plus every one of them was once a man who had to kill super aliens and robots with flashlights and no armor or genetic tricks. Not even spech merines are that hardcore.
The main character of Descent of Angels gets to be a space marine by killing a chaos beast with a bolt-pistol (among other things).

He's about 10 years old when this happens. If that.

He struck me as a Mary Sue type character though. Perhaps an atypical example. Still, lots of SM recruits distinguish themselves as children. God knows what for, but it can't be easy.

Cubey

2009-12-11, 04:24 PM

- Feel free to throw in more powered armor \ mini-mecha troopers if I've forgotten any, which I certainly have.

I'd say "Samus Aran" here... but the fight is supposed to be a contest, right? Not a curbstomp.

chiasaur11

2009-12-11, 04:27 PM

I think X-Com would probably (barely) win, all else being equal. X-Com psykers have terrifying amounts of willpower, guns that can dust tanks with glancing shots, and armor that can survive mininukes. I mean, lasers or even plasmas might not win X-Com the fight easily, but give them one blaster bomb launcher, and the mission switches from "To the Death!" to "You got blood on my suit! Also most of your liver."

Now, if Felix from armor was in the fight, it might be a tad harder for X-Com. Halos round his head, too tough to die. I mean, he would probably survive a fight with Samus. SAMUS!

Haven

2009-12-11, 04:30 PM

How about throwing in Tagon's Toughs from Schlock Mercenary? I think they have the edge of maneuverability over the others, but I'm not totally familiar with all the rest.

Surrealistik

2009-12-11, 04:40 PM

Tzeentch Terminators are practically invul, including to mind control. I'm fairly certain the combination of durability and firepower means pretty much everything else in the fight loses (well, unless Grey Knight Terminators are involved).

chiasaur11

2009-12-11, 04:48 PM

How about throwing in Tagon's Toughs from Schlock Mercenary? I think they have the edge of maneuverability over the others, but I'm not totally familiar with all the rest.

X-Com troopers can fly, move just as fast as unarmored troops and nearly keep up with a tank at full speed. So, they're agile is what I'm saying.

Also, Terminator armor, if I remember right, can be taken down by plasma fire. Guess what the standard X-Com weapon is?

Haven

2009-12-11, 04:51 PM

X-Com troopers can fly, move just as fast as unarmored troops and nearly keep up with a tank at full speed. So, they're agile is what I'm saying.

The Toughs' armor can outpace tanks (flying 31st century tanks) and break the sound barrier, and they have surgical and chemical mods that let them react at that speed.

They don't have access to psionics like X-Com does though.

Slayn82

2009-12-11, 05:03 PM

Well, Schlock is probably immune to most forms of mind control, being actually a evolved colony of nanomachines. Bolters would do nothing to him, and even plasma is just a minor nuisance, with all the matter around that he could eat. And of course, he flies with plasma guns. And Kevin has Antimater grenades/epaulets, that could beat down tanks or even spaceships.

From the others, i would give the victory to X - COM too. Because X - COM veterans with maxed stats are broken at simply ridiculous levels. Surviving plasma shots without armor?

Surrealistik

2009-12-11, 05:04 PM

Also, Terminator armor, if I remember right, can be taken down by plasma fire. Guess what the standard X-Com weapon is?

Tzeentch termies are resistant to Plasma fire even in 40k table top where the practical fluff invulnerability of the suits is drastically tempered. Further X-Com plasma weaponry may not be on par with WH40k.

Fluffwise, plasma does relatively little to terminator armour; these things were originally meant to be worn for use in active nuclear and plasma generators. Space Marines within have survived being literally stepped on by giant battle titans hundreds of feet tall.

Emperor Ing

2009-12-11, 05:13 PM

I would say "You forgot Samus Aran" but then that'd spark a debate on "what items has she aquired?"

Oslecamo

2009-12-11, 05:15 PM

Space Marines within have survived being literally stepped on by giant battle titans hundreds of feet tall.

Correction: ONE spech merine Mary Sue hero was buried in the mud after being steped on by a titan, wich left him out for the rest of the batle. And he was so special that when he died the orks built him a statue. The orks who, you know, normaly collect spech merine helmets as trophies.

Also, +1 for Samus Aran, DESTROYER OF WORLDS!

Forget the other powered armored dudes. Tzenceth is the big goal for her.

Pharaoh's Fist:Your dude had a miniaturized rocket launcher. Xcom operatives start with mass produced flashlights. I see a big diference of badassery here.

Kane

2009-12-11, 05:20 PM

You know, I have no idea what the result will be, and probably won't participate, but when you narrated the X-Com victory part, I was going "Oh, yeaaaah.".

Then you mentioned that the crashed space ships that you find in the Fallout games are the work of X-Com... And... I don't know. It's just too awesome.

My mind is blown, I'm going to go sit down in a dark room for a while.

Incidentally, I think the Fallout 2 'Chosen One' is probably a better bet. Aside from the obvious 'nuke-launcher', I think F2 had better weapons.

But seriously. I'm going to go lie down now.

Surrealistik

2009-12-11, 05:23 PM

Forget the other powered armored dudes. Tzenceth is the big goal for her.

I'm not quite sure how Samus even at her prime with all her gadgets and toys would be even close to a match for a literal, near-omniscient god with virtually unlimited sorcerous power.

Fan

2009-12-11, 05:30 PM

I'm not quite sure how Samus even at her prime with all her gadgets and toys would be even close to a match for a literal, near-omniscient god with virtually unlimited sorcerous power.

PLEASE don't bring up a Samus Aran argument, it always ends in someone saying she can destroy planets all by her lonesome, when she has never been shown to have the weaponry to do this, but instead always uses a Dues Ex Machina to have it explode as she leaves.

Isak

2009-12-11, 05:34 PM

If the Loyalist Marine squad is from the Grey Knights chapter, I believe we have our winners. Extremely potent Psykers, on top of all the usual Space Marine hax?

And if they're Terminators... Oh, I feel bad for whoever fights them...

I have a feeling it'd come down to the two WH40K Marine teams.

The Glitter Boy gets an honorable mention... Shame he's alone. A handful of them would probably win this outright. How many Glitter Boys did it take to conquer a huge portion of Canada? 10? 12? And what's best of all... Is that they're just normal dudes in big honking suits of Death. No genetic enhancements whatsoever. :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo

2009-12-11, 06:00 PM

And if they're Terminators... Oh, I feel bad for whoever fights them...

Actualy, depending on the territory, it may be worst than regular spech merine power armor. Termie armor is awfully bulky, and it's said on the spech merines own fluff that the main reason why it never went in mass production was because a group of termies could be easily outflanked and sniped in open ground. They're great in tunnels and other closed spaces, but in the open, they're big slow targets. Tough, yes, but slow. Whereas normal spech merine armor was specialy designed to hinder movements as litle as possible.

Isak

2009-12-11, 06:21 PM

Actualy, depending on the territory, it may be worst than regular spech merine power armor. Termie armor is awfully bulky, and it's said on the spech merines own fluff that the main reason why it never went in mass production was because a group of termies could be easily outflanked and sniped in open ground. They're great in tunnels and other closed spaces, but in the open, they're big slow targets. Tough, yes, but slow. Whereas normal spech merine armor was specialy designed to hinder movements as litle as possible.

True... But your "Standard" Terminator is equipped with Storm Bolters and Power Fists. A standard Bolter fires a burst of 4 rounds, where each one would literally tear apart a normal human in even the best modern body armor. A Storm Bolter fires 8 shots every burst. Power Fists? Could probably punch a hole straight through an M1A1 Abrahms battle tank. Never mind the armor Terminators wear... which could probably take a tank shot and shrug it off.

Autocannons? Missile Launchers? Power swords? Lightning Claws? Thunder Hammers? Storm Shields? The weaponry only improves. On top of that, Grey Knight Terminators wield Nemesis Force Weapons, which makes all the others look like toys.

Yes, Terminators are "Slow and Bulky", but it's still Power Armor, and thus improves all aspects of the user. The bulk of the suit is mostly counteracted by the feats the suit can perform, and in fact would be a very small factor considering all the benefits. Used smartly, a group of Terminators could easily take a much larger group of foes even in a very wide open area. It just so happens that their specialty lies in clearing out much more enclosed spaces; Which is a much harder environment to fight in.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-11, 06:44 PM

Forget the other powered armored dudes. Tzenceth is the big goal for her.

Pharaoh's Fist:Your dude had a miniaturized rocket launcher. Xcom operatives start with mass produced flashlights. I see a big diference of badassery here.

They were also adults. Again, difference in badassery.

chiasaur11

2009-12-11, 06:47 PM

They were also adults. Again, difference in badassery.

Fair enough.

Of course, X-Com does not start with flashlights. It starts with pistols.

What X-Com's aquatic division starts with is too terrible to mention in polite company.

Prime32

2009-12-11, 06:57 PM

PLEASE don't bring up a Samus Aran argument, it always ends in someone saying she can destroy planets all by her lonesome, when she has never been shown to have the weaponry to do this, but instead always uses a Dues Ex Machina to have it explode as she leaves.Guyver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvM7XYwbgU) then? Bearing in mind that Guyver-I is a powered armour character who has actually defeated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvVqUwjOY5A) Samus in a Vs. thread. :smallbiggrin:

Thane of Fife

2009-12-11, 07:01 PM

May I nominate Iron Man and War Machine as guys who definitely deserve to get in on this?

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:08 PM

May I nominate Iron Man and War Machine as guys who definitely deserve to get in on this?What about Terry "Batman Beyond" McGuiness?

xPANCAKEx

2009-12-11, 07:09 PM

they're nowhere near on the same powerlevel, but Elementals and power-armour suits from the Battletech universe could be on the list

a star of Clan elementals might do some decent damage, but probably wouldn't come out on top

Haven

2009-12-11, 07:09 PM

What about Terry "Batman Beyond" McGuiness?

I love Terry, but he's quite out of his league in this one.

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:11 PM

I love Terry, but he's quite out of his league in this one.He could make a useful body for Cortana ally though.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-11, 07:18 PM

Batman has power armor...

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:20 PM

Batman has power armor...Batman Beyond does, but he's not the same guy. The normal Batman doesn't really use his enough to count.

Haven

2009-12-11, 07:21 PM

He could make a useful body for Cortana ally though.

Terry: "This again?"

Batman has power armor...

It gives him heart problems though.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-11, 07:21 PM

Batman Beyond does, but he's not the same guy. The normal Batman doesn't really use his enough to count.

The normal Batman has it, and that is enough :smalltongue:

I think we know who would win.

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:30 PM

I think we know who would win.This guy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHf6DWEvJhM), obviously. He knows to dress in layers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dzmjYEGivQ).

Thane of Fife

2009-12-11, 07:31 PM

What about Terry "Batman Beyond" McGuiness?

I considered him, but he's simply out of his league. Not only is his equipment inferior to most of his rivals', but he's physically inferior. He doesn't have anything going for him.

On Iron Man, some quick searches suggest that he can lift about 100 tons and fly at Mach 8. And that War Machine has missiles with yields ranked in kilotons of TNT. So maybe they're a bit too much for this competition.

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:38 PM

I considered him, but he's simply out of his league. Not only is his equipment inferior to most of his rivals', but he's physically inferior. He doesn't have anything going for him.

On Iron Man, some quick searches suggest that he can lift about 100 tons and fly at Mach 8. And that War Machine has missiles with yields ranked in kilotons of TNT. So maybe they're a bit too much for this competition.I assume that it's going to be Iron Man fighting entire squadrons of Space Marines by himself though.

Oslecamo

2009-12-11, 07:38 PM

On Iron Man, some quick searches suggest that he can lift about 100 tons and fly at Mach 8. And that War Machine has missiles with yields ranked in kilotons of TNT. So maybe they're a bit too much for this competition.

Iron man armor was once defeated by a pointy wooden stick. So it's disqualified.

That or the Xcom team throws some vodka botles to get Tony's atention.

Prime32

2009-12-11, 07:39 PM

Iron man armor was once defeated by a pointy wooden stick. So it's disqualified.If you're talking about the time Tony defeated his own sentient armour, it was a pointy stick with a diamond on the end.

Blayze

2009-12-11, 07:46 PM

A new challenger enters the fray! Possibly The Emperor of Mankind/The Commander, come from the future to absorb all the technology and machinery his semi-sentient medical/experimental military robot can come into contact with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roujin_Z

secretbison

2009-12-11, 09:34 PM

The squad of Chaos Marines, the squad of Space Marines, and the squad of Enclave soldiers are all very, very stupid in terms of tactics. The Enclave are the smartest of the three, but also the worst-equipped. (Most of their armor is damaged almost to breaking and offers very little protection. A lone Space Marine with a bolter could tear right through them.)

Master Chief, the Lone Wanderer, and the Glitterboy have the disadvantage of being outnumbered. They win against superior numbers, but only when their enemies are stupid.

The X-Com troopers are smart and numerous, but a little out of their league. They come from a relatively recent future, and their gear would probably have trouble making a dent in any of the other contestants. If we're including marines from Starcraft in this competition, they'll likely have the same problem. They could scavenge gear from fallen foes, but they'll likely have trouble learning how to use it, and they're competing with the Lone Wanderer, scavenger par excellance, who can carry several times his own weight and volume. He'll probably scavenge all the good weapons and armor for a good half of the battle before he's hit by a tacnuke and everything he's carrying becomes radioactive scrap.

The probable winners are the Cap Troopers from Starship Troopers. Even if they don't have a spaceship that can support them with transportation and full-sized nukes, they're the only group that's neither outnumbered, ill-equipped, nor idiotic. Their jump packs are even jumpier than those of the Space Marines, they've got the highest quantity of tactical nukes, and they've got the right balance of reason and fighting spirit. My money's on the originals.

That said, Terry McGinnis has a fighting chance if he can radio Bruce Wayne for help...

Oslecamo

2009-12-11, 10:11 PM

My money's on the originals.

Then you'll be beting on the lensman, the true original powered armored dudes (starship troopers gets the award of first jetpack powered armored troops being droped directly from orbit tough).

Let's see what they've got again...
1-Super psychic powers able to easily mindrape people at distance.
2-Their handguns are disintregators. Who needs solid ammo?
3-Their armors can resist physic-raping events.
4-Their handheld heavy weaponry has the same firepower as the other faction's heavy space ships.
5-Assault axes able to cut trough anything like butter.

Xcom comes second, because altough they come from a near future, they've looted plenty of weaponry from a much more advanced species. And they're the only other faction with psionics.

secretbison

2009-12-11, 11:19 PM

With Warhammer guys in the picture, and the OP specifically saying that the Chaos Gods are involved, psionics is a liability for everyone except the Chaos Marines (and possibly the Space Marines, whose psykers, if any, know the risk already.) The X-Com operatives who use their usual mighty psychic powers are going to turn into gibbering mutants in service of Chaos. The same thing is going to happen to the Starcraft marines if they have any Ghosts.

It is true, however, that the Lensmen are uber. Things get an Exalted level of ridiculous with them. If they're part of this competition, and they're smart enough not to use any psionics, they win in seconds.

GolemsVoice

2009-12-12, 07:31 AM

When I read the original post, I thought, well, bring Space Marines from Starcraft to the fight. Then I thought about it again, and thought of all the other Space Marines around, and what else they would have to face, and thought, uh, poor souls, them.

But they would easily win, because all other sides would be busy

a)constructing additional pylons or

b) bringing more vespen gas, which is needed.

Prime32

2009-12-12, 08:58 AM

Isak

2009-12-12, 09:17 AM

Okay, what if all the single-man entries team up?

This would include:
Batman Beyond
Gordon Freeman
Guyver-I
Iron Man & War Machine
Master Chief (w/ Cortana)
Samus Aran

Now team up all the armies and send them against that team. :smalltongue:

Wasn't it already stated in that Tzeentch is messing with everyone is such a way that they're not even thinking of possible alliances?

Besides... Gordon Freeman, as much as I love the guy, isn't really wearing Power Armor... Even Master Chief could tickle him to death... Right before a Glitter Boy kills them both with his Boom Gun.

Prime32

2009-12-12, 09:24 AM

Besides... Gordon Freeman, as much as I love the guy, isn't really wearing Power Armor... Even Master Chief could tickle him to death... Right before a Glitter Boy kills them both with his Boom Gun.More importantly, he's smart. :smalltongue: The team has a lot of smart people, who could do nasty things if they fight indirectly.
Master Chief: excellent strategist
Cortana: Smart AI specialising in hacking
Gordon Freeman: PhD
Tony Stark: blah blah box of scraps, you know how smart he is
Batman Beyond: If he has backup from the old man, well he has backup from the goddamn Batman

Oslecamo

2009-12-12, 09:26 AM

Besides... Gordon Freeman, as much as I love the guy, isn't really wearing Power Armor... Even Master Chief could tickle him to death... Right before a Glitter Boy kills them both with his Boom Gun.

O'rrly?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lXWtHKN-pvs/R8XWvX8hYdI/AAAAAAAAAD0/VNK3KrDCwMg/s320/half-life_vs_halo.jpg

Throwing Gordon Freeman on the midle of that would be as unfair as throwing Samus.:smalltongue:

Isak

2009-12-12, 10:13 AM

O'rrly?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_lXWtHKN-pvs/R8XWvX8hYdI/AAAAAAAAAD0/VNK3KrDCwMg/s320/half-life_vs_halo.jpg

Throwing Gordon Freeman on the midle of that would be as unfair as throwing Samus.:smalltongue:

True... I have no idea what the heck I was thinking when I said that... Damn you Tzeentch!

We all know MC is the wet paper bag here. I think he dies from shame as everyone else just laughs at him and gives him a Barbie Doll to go play with while the Big Kids all go and play somewhere else. :smalltongue:

Still... Gordon is smart... But that is literally the only thing he has going for him. Every other "team" listed can level city blocks like they were nothing... He has a crowbar? Well, that and the (Super) Gravity Gun, which would go a LONG way (Throwing mini-nukes back at people? Ouch...). He's still way out of his league, unfortunately :smallfrown:

secretbison

2009-12-12, 10:43 AM

Prime32

2009-12-12, 05:15 PM

Can we add Baby Head from Captain Commando?

http://fc08.deviantart.com/fs40/f/2009/049/d/8/__Hoover__Captain_Commando___by_Turboman.jpg

In addition to being another presumed super-genius, he's the only contestant who ever drives a mecha that is itself operating a mecha. Yo dawg, I heard you like mecha, so we put a mecha in your mecha so you can smash while you smash.So that's where that thing came from. I saw it in one of Tatsunoko vs. Capcom's ending videos on Youtube and was rather confused. Then I was distracted by Kikaioh/G-Kaiser showing up.

I wouldn't say only (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MetaMecha), bison. Not by a long shot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaZgFHuG23U). :smallwink: Plus I already mentioned that Machine Robo guy who "dresses in layers". :smalltongue: (see also here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-SsNRIjkWQ))

secretbison

2009-12-12, 09:42 PM

I suppose you're right. But it's still amusing to watch his mecha pilot another mecha, not through being plugged into it electronically, but by operating a pair of levers just like everyone else.

Mercenary Pen

2009-12-13, 08:31 AM

Macross mecha anyone?

We may not have so many of the small size combat mecha (apart from the Ex-Gear system), but we can put you through genetic therapy to turn you into a 20 metre high giant to handle something bigger.

Isak

2009-12-13, 08:34 AM

I suppose you're right. But it's still amusing to watch his mecha pilot another mecha, not through being plugged into it electronically, but by operating a pair of levers just like everyone else.

Ever see Gurren Lagann? :smallbiggrin:

Shame he's a little too big to be considered a Power Armor...

Lagann itself surely is, however.

By the end of Gurren Lagann, you have a city-sized Mecha piloting THE MOON. Which in turn, PILOTS A MECHA 10 MILLION LIGHT YEARS TALL.

It's a must watch show. For everyone. :smalltongue:

GoC

2009-12-13, 09:51 AM

How about throwing in Tagon's Toughs from Schlock Mercenary? I think they have the edge of maneuverability over the others, but I'm not totally familiar with all the rest.

Tagon's Toughs are tough. They're in a different league to everyone else there.

Prime32

2009-12-13, 09:55 AM

Ever see Gurren Lagann? :smallbiggrin:

Shame he's a little too big to be considered a Power Armor...

Lagann itself surely is, however.

By the end of Gurren Lagann, you have a city-sized Mecha piloting THE MOON. Which in turn, PILOTS A MECHA 10 MILLION LIGHT YEARS TALL.

It's a must watch show. For everyone. :smalltongue:You forgot to mention that the city-sized mecha is piloted by a house-sized mecha, which is piloted by a car-sized mecha. And in the movie, the 10-million-light-years-tall mecha also pilots one which is 10 billion light years tall.

And it isn't Power Armour if you have to use switches and joysticks to operate it.

Mercenary Pen

2009-12-13, 10:33 AM

And it isn't Power Armour if you have to use switches and joysticks to operate it.

If we're going to get bogged down in a debate over exactly what constitutes power armour as opposed to personal-sized mecha, maybe we would have been better off throwing it open to all mecha and power armour systems regardless of any other criteria?

For example, take the Queadluun from the various Macross series. I don't recall ever seeing switches and joysticks used to control it, but its designed for humanoids roughly twenty metres tall, so is that a mecha or a suit of power armour?

Prime32

2009-12-13, 10:38 AM

If we're going to get bogged down in a debate over exactly what constitutes power armour as opposed to personal-sized mecha, maybe we would have been better off throwing it open to all mecha and power armour systems regardless of any other criteria?

For example, take the Queadluun from the various Macross series. I don't recall ever seeing switches and joysticks used to control it, but its designed for humanoids roughly twenty metres tall, so is that a mecha or a suit of power armour?If it's a suit of armour being worn by a giant, it's not a mecha. If the Master Chief got hit by some kind of giant-ising beam, would he be a mecha?

See TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoweredArmor):

Distinct from Humongous Mecha in that Powered Armor is a suit worn on the body, while Humongous Mecha are vehicles that are controlled, either from a cockpit or with some Unusual User Interface.

Starbuck_II

2009-12-13, 10:53 AM

Do we include Megaman? What powers does he acquire from defeating Chaos Marines?
He is a cyborg at first.

Mercenary Pen

2009-12-13, 11:01 AM

If it's a suit of armour being worn by a giant, it's not a mecha. If the Master Chief got hit by some kind of giant-ising beam, would he be a mecha?

See TVTropes (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PoweredArmor):

I have to disagree with you on this. As I understand it, all powered armour systems ARE mecha, but not all mecha are powered armour systems, because- based on the definition you posted- I would have to count 'being mounted on an organic body' as an 'unusual user interface'.

warty goblin

2009-12-13, 11:22 AM

I have to disagree with you on this. As I understand it, all powered armour systems ARE mecha, but not all mecha are powered armour systems, because- based on the definition you posted- I would have to count 'being mounted on an organic body' as an 'unusual user interface'.

No. Powered armor is exactly what it sounds like: body armor that is powered. You wear it. I at least tend to define a mecha as anything too large to wear like clothing.

chiasaur11

2009-12-13, 11:36 AM

Tagon's Toughs are tough. They're in a different league to everyone else there.

You want Tough?

You want full on halo round the head too tough to die?

Then you don't want the toughs. You don't want Space Marines, tough as they are. And, with all due respect, you definitely don't want X-Com.

You want Felix, from "Armor". The Engine. The man who Would. Not. Die.

Honestly, I think if you took the proposed contest from the Chief vs. Space Marine thread and dropped him on Catachan, he'd survive indefinitely.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 02:16 PM

No. Powered armor is exactly what it sounds like: body armor that is powered. You wear it. I at least tend to define a mecha as anything too large to wear like clothing.

Tau Crisis suits are a bit borderline- they might be closer to small mecha than large power armour- since the arms are so far from the body compartment, that the alien's actual arms probably don't go into them.

Mercenary Pen

2009-12-13, 03:54 PM

Tau Crisis suits are a bit borderline- they might be closer to small mecha than large power armour- since the arms are so far from the body compartment, that the alien's actual arms probably don't go into them.

Also, I would consider any powered armour that provides additional movement modes (like long-term flight, rather than just Boba Fett's rocket pack) to be a mecha as well as powered armour.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 04:01 PM

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:24 PM

There are no true flight suits in 40K- all are more like jump-packs.

Eldar Swooping Hawks come close though- with Skyleap (Exarch power), they can leap so high that they leave the table, and Deep Strike in later.

Because emprah forbid there being an infantry unit automaticaly invulnerable to chainswords because of being too high.:smalltongue:

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 04:27 PM

Or, because you can't pack that much fuel into a backpack mount.

The Imperium doesn't seem to have the Eldar knack for high-jumping gear.

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:31 PM

Or, because you can't pack that much fuel into a backpack mount.
Then why give the dudes with swords? Why not give the jetpacks to the dudes with long range weaponry so they can hit and run the enemy better?

Mercenary Pen

2009-12-13, 04:33 PM

Or, because you can't pack that much fuel into a backpack mount.

The Imperium doesn't seem to have the Eldar knack for high-jumping gear.

They also don't seem to have the concept of nuclear-reactor jet engines down to infantry size... As opposed to the Ex-Gear system developed for Macross Frontier

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 04:36 PM

Then why give the dudes with swords? Why not give the jetpacks to the dudes with long range weaponry so they can hit and run the enemy better?

One group did do that. The Dark Eldar.

Main reason to be fast in 40K seems to be to get units across the battlefield to a fight really quickly- when extra concentration of force is needed- rather than to keep away from advancing units.

Since heavy weapons prevent you from moving, each time you are jumping, you aren't using that powerful weapon.

So only the Dark Eldar (for some reason) do it.

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:41 PM

One group did do that. The Dark Eldar.

And the Tau.

Main reason to be fast in 40K seems to be to get units across the battlefield to a fight really quickly- when extra concentration of force is needed- rather than to keep away from advancing units.

So you throw away all possible cover and strap an heavy backpack of explosive contents wich makes you an even bigger target. Genius plan! Screw rhinos and landspeeders and bikes, I've got rockets with legs!

Since heavy weapons prevent you from moving, each time you are jumping, you aren't using that powerful weapon.

There's these things called "bolters". Quite good at taking down massed infantry in theory. They have a much bigger killing range than pistols, and can be fired while moving (well at least could). There's also storm bolters.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 04:44 PM

Tau don't have the close-combat ability to take advantage of.

Imperial Marines, Chaos, and Tyranids seem to go with, for jump-packing guys, close combat first, guns second.

Tau and Eldar prefer the reverse.

Bolters lose a lot of range when on the move- and forbid assaulting (Rapid Fire rule)- hence, they get a gun that has the same range when moving (less firepower), and doesn't stop them assaulting.

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:48 PM

Notice how the Tau and DE prosper despite being horribly outnumbered by everyone else.

Could it be because of their diferent batle doctrines? Naaaahhh!:smallamused:

Also, storm bolters can be fired on the move whitout penalty.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-13, 04:48 PM

Notice how the Tau and DE trive despite being horribly outnumbered by everyone else.
I am unfamiliar with that word.

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:50 PM

Then check the new one.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 04:51 PM

Some Dark Eldar stay at a distance.

Some get up close (Wych Cult)

If the army is good at close combat, it makes sense to give some close-combat specialists speed and manueverability.

GoC

2009-12-13, 04:53 PM

So you throw away all possible cover and strap an heavy backpack of explosive contents wich makes you an even bigger target. Genius plan! Screw rhinos and landspeeders and bikes, I've got rockets with legs!
If ANY of the artwork and videos I've seen are accurate then 40K battles are massed battles just like Star Wars and pre 20th century Earth battles. Cover isn't that important in these circumstances.

Come to think of it do any sci-fi settings have modern battles?
If not then modern militaries are pretty high up if placed on the scale of fictional armies...

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 04:55 PM

If the army is good at close combat, it makes sense to give some close-combat specialists speed and manueverability.

Wich is given in a much more effecient way in the form of transports. DE's melee dudes main strenght is their super fast skimmers wich allow them to deploy right over the enemy before they understand what the hell is hapening.

Rockets straped on your back, on the other hand, should logicaly make it much harder to melee due to the extra weight and encumbrance, but the gods that be were mercifull and apply no penalty for you having a giant bag of explosives at your back. So it's only effecient because of plot power.

GoC:The lensman series had some logic. Heck, at the end the enemy army forms a closed formation, and then the main heros literaly lol at it, say something like "it would have worked if they did that milleniuns ago!", and proceed to nuke the hell out of the enemy closed formation, wining the war.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 05:00 PM

the minus side of super-fast skimmer is:

thin armour, open top, and a tendency to crash horribly when hit while moving at those speeds, killing everyone aboard.

Jump-packs apparently aren't quite heavy enough to significantly obstruct combat ability.

onasuma

2009-12-13, 05:00 PM

Oslecamo

2009-12-13, 05:04 PM

thin armour, open top, and a tendency to crash horribly when hit while moving at those speeds, killing everyone aboard.

Except that DE skimmers move so fast that even spech merines have trouble hiting them. Plust they have shadow technology to cloack them, making them even harder to hit!

And when they do crash horribly, they don't kill everybody on board. Even normal naked humies have a 50% chance of walking out alive. Spech merines would easily shrug off a skimmer crash with their enanched toughness and armor.

Spech merines jumpers, on the other hand, can get shot down by lasguns, wich however have no chance in hell of taking down a skimmer, even if it's stoped.

hamishspence

2009-12-13, 05:06 PM

Chaos Marines and Space Wolves have one advantage over all the other Marine armies- their basic troopers (CSMs, Grey Hunters) come with pistol, sword, and bolter, thus giving them assault power comparable to an Assault squad, gun power comparable to an ordinary Marine squad.

Those two thus have a distinct edge, in the power of their basic troop units.

Prime32

2009-12-13, 05:08 PM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-13, 05:11 PM

Obviously you aren't that familiar with Guyver, are you? :smalltongue:

"The microwave laser takes excess heat from the suit and fires it at the enemy."

"Wait, doesn't that defy the laws of phys-*SMACK*"

"Don't bring the laws of physics into a series where your main battlesuit is stored in a subspace dimension and is called to you via voice-ID. Now flash the enemy and destroy them with you ultra-mega-death-breast laser."

onasuma

2009-12-13, 06:00 PM

Obviously you aren't that familiar with Guyver, are you? :smalltongue:

More than, but I doubt a monolith is easily contructable.

chiasaur11

2009-12-13, 06:09 PM

Master chief wins. Hands down. He simply beghahahahahahaha. Damn, I couldnt finish that one...

Its basically between the two 40k options. 40k stuff is all way above the norm in terms of average power level. Their pistols are rocket launchers. Their guns are rapid fire rocket launchers. Their rocket launchers are some form of anti godzilla weaponry. Chaos probably takes it if they get close, otherwise loyalists.

X-Com:

Auto fire modes on the main gun can occasionally cut through an alloy that shrugs off nukes and laughs at cannons that penetrate 10 inches of steel. And yes, it is more powerful than a rocket launcher. An X-Com rocket launcher, which can destroy a warehouse in one shot.

Squad support weapons pack more kick per inch than atomic weapons, rip open otherwise invincible spaceships, and destroy small city blocks in in a shot. And it's able make 90 degree turns in mid flight to hit the target. We're talking 100% accurate.

X-Com armor can survive hits from either of those weapons. And sometimes even let the guy inside survive it.

Prime32

2009-12-13, 06:10 PM

More than, but I doubt a monolith is easily contructable.
:smallconfused:

I have no idea what this was supposed to mean. I'm not talking about McGyver (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAvM7XYwbgU), if that's what you meant.

secretbison

2009-12-13, 07:42 PM

If it's X-com versus the 40K guys, the biggest advantage of the X-com guys isn't their weapons and armour, uber though they may be. It's that the X-com guys believe in sometimes using cover, camouflage, and tactical retreats. X-com are like the Reasonable Marines.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Reasonable_Marines

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-13, 07:43 PM

And the Ravenguard aren't?

secretbison

2009-12-13, 08:05 PM

I see that entry on Lexicanum about how the Raven Guard will swallow their pride and use guerrilla warfare. I attribute it to their corrupted gene seed. But which chapter of Space Marines are we using in this competition? Odds are it will be one of the more berserk chapters.

Fan

2009-12-13, 08:07 PM

chiasaur11

2009-12-13, 08:10 PM

How about the Grey Guards?

The ones who can kill you by thinking to hard about it.

That's how X-Com rolls, son. If computer guided nukes don't do the job, mind powers will.

And most vets are pretty much immune to psychic powers.

Oslecamo

2009-12-14, 03:51 AM

How about the Grey Guards?

The ones who can kill you by thinking to hard about it and having to hit you with their pointy sticks.

Fixed it for you. Nemesis weapons are still melee only, so the Xcom dudes just keep in the air, lol, and shoot down the grey guards.

Fan

2009-12-14, 04:00 AM

Fixed it for you. Nemesis weapons are still melee only, so the Xcom dudes just keep in the air, lol, and shoot down the grey guards.

Your forgetting the fact that the majority are Psykers made from the Emprahs own Geneseed. THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND is what went into them.

Not to mention, as this is in fact the Emprah's best, they have THESE.

Aegis Armour

The suits of power and Terminator armour worn by the Grey Knights are incredibly well crafted lattice of psychoconductive filaments and amulets*7; anointed and inscribed with prayers and wards, ritually consecrated and psychically charged. Working in tandem with the Grey Knights' formidable psychic powers, the Aegis armour protects the wearers from the effects of the Immaterium and the Daemons it spawns. The armor's ritual blessings and psychic resonance also serve to confound the perception of any enemy, resulting in an effect called the Shrouding. The psychically charged nature of the armour allows its mere presence to induce intense terror and pain in any nearby daemons and warp spawn, also loosening their grip on the material realm.

As well as its psychic properties, the armour itself incorporates a pattern of storm bolter - a rare and powerful weapon which, when combined with the skill of the Knights themselves, can be used with equal effectiveness in both ranged and melee combat. this weapon is always loaded with psychically-charged ammunition.

Which is pretty much as bad ass as one can get, WITHOUT their superiority over most other spess mahreen chapters, and the back up FORCE weapons for closing after they've gone ahead and mind nuked them.

Oslecamo

2009-12-14, 05:15 AM

Your forgetting the fact that the majority are Psykers made from the Emprahs own Geneseed. THE GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND is what went into them.

In case you didn't notice, all spech merines came from the emprah, since he used his own genes to create the primarchs, and from there the spech merines.

Not to mention, as this is in fact the Emprah's best
Bzzt wrong again! The emprah's best are the adeptus custodes, his personal bodyguards. They're so uber that they don't even have game stats! You just assume that they automaticaly curb stomp the other side! Out of 10.000, only 3 died, in all of the wars of the imperium! Grey knights, on the other hand, do get slaughtered by the dozens.

Aegis Armour

The suits of power and Terminator armour worn by the Grey Knights are incredibly well crafted lattice of psychoconductive filaments and amulets*7; anointed and inscribed with prayers and wards, ritually consecrated and psychically charged. Working in tandem with the Grey Knights' formidable psychic powers, the Aegis armour protects the wearers from the effects of the Immaterium and the Daemons it spawns. The armor's ritual blessings and psychic resonance also serve to confound the perception of any enemy, resulting in an effect called the Shrouding. The psychically charged nature of the armour allows its mere presence to induce intense terror and pain in any nearby daemons and warp spawn, also loosening their grip on the material realm.

As well as its psychic properties, the armour itself incorporates a pattern of storm bolter - a rare and powerful weapon which, when combined with the skill of the Knights themselves, can be used with equal effectiveness in both ranged and melee combat. this weapon is always loaded with psychically-charged ammunition.

Which is pretty much as bad ass as one can get, WITHOUT their superiority over most other spess mahreen chapters, and the back up FORCE weapons for closing after they've gone ahead and mind nuked them.

Grey knights can't mind nuke people at distance that I remember. That's why the have nemesis force weapons.

Also, in case you didn't notice, the only advantage of the aegis armor in relation to the normal power armor, is protection against psychic attacks, and limited cover. Hardly the most badass power armor out there. Xcom can still fly over them and shoot them to death, or from afar with area weapons.

Fan

2009-12-14, 05:20 AM

In case you didn't notice, all spech merines came from the emprah, since he used his own genes to create the primarchs, and from there the spech merines.

Bzzt wrong again! The emprah's best are the adeptus custodes, his personal bodyguards. They're so uber that they don't even have game stats! You just assume that they automaticaly curb stomp the other side! Out of 10.000, only 3 died, in all of the wars of the imperium! Grey knights, on the other hand, do get slaughtered by the dozens.

Grey knights can't mind nuke people at distance that I remember. That's why the have nemesis force weapons.

Also, in case you didn't notice, the only advantage of the aegis armor in relation to the normal power armor, is protection against psychic attacks, and limited cover. Hardly the most badass power armor out there. Xcom can still over them and shoot them to death, or from afar with area weapons.

Well, the Grey Knights have the Emprah himself as their Primarch is what I'm saying (Hence why they are considered to have the "purest" of all geneseed.)

But hey, let's go with the Adeptus Custode, I had forgotten about them....

Oslecamo

2009-12-14, 05:25 AM

Well, the Grey Knights have the Emprah himself as their Primarch is what I'm saying (Hence why they are considered to have the "purest" of all geneseed.)
They do have the purest of geneseed, but I don't remember anyone ever saying it came directly from the emprah. It may as well be that the grey knights are formed by taking uncorrupted samples from other chapters, and taking extra care with their own, unlike space wolves and blood angels who will take any geneseed that doesn't instagib themselves.

But hey, let's go with the Adeptus Custode, I had forgotten about them....

Funny thing, the custodes are completely unique being.They aren't produced by geneseed, since that process was developed to allow mass production of spech merines. Also very litle is known about them, wich is really a shame.
...

ADEPTUS CUSTODES ARE THE XCOM 30.000 YEARS LATER!

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 05:33 AM

Out of 10.000, only 3 died, in all of the wars of the imperium!

well when you are restricted to a planet which has not had a war on it for 10,000 years (and where did you even dredge up that stat)

Also they no longer wear power armor and the equipment that they once would have access to is now worn by the grey knights.

Also note they were stopped by sisters of battle during the Age of Apostasy

hamishspence

2009-12-14, 05:54 AM

Custodes still exist- and wear armour, and use the combination halberd/storm bolter that used to be seen on Grey Knight models before the Grey Knights underwent a design revision.

The Horus Heresy books- in particular Tales of Heresy, seem to have the most info on the Custodes, their appearence, armour, and tactics.

They look like oversized Space Marines- whatever technique the Emperor was using wasn't the same as Space Marines and Geneseed.

They wear "terminator armour cut like power armour"- suggesting it's Terminator levels of protection, but mobility more like that of power armour.

They (prior to the Heresy) conduct routine exercises to test both their bodyguarding skills, and their ability to beat their own security systems- thus keeping the security being constantly improved to cover each new flaw they discover.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 06:04 AM

facts

That is all very true pre-heresy however, post heresy they dropped the armor along with a few other things though they still wield the laser spears

hamishspence

2009-12-14, 06:08 AM

Which book has the details on the post-heresy Custodes wearing less armour?

Most of the pics I've seen (admittedly pre-5th ed) show pretty heavily armoured guys, tall helms, plumes, etc.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 06:26 AM

Vic_Sage

2009-12-14, 06:31 AM

Celestial's (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_(comics)) show up and wreck everything. Custodes included.

hamishspence

2009-12-14, 06:36 AM

Pics from 40K art books don't necessarily reflect standard operating procedure.

Though it is possible that they don't wear full armour all the time, but only on formal occasions (or vice versa).

Oslecamo

2009-12-14, 07:32 AM

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/a/ac/Custodesimage.jpg/180px-Custodesimage.jpg

As you can see his hand and the like he is not wearing the typical power armor. Yes armor but not power armor

And acording to pictures, spech merines don't wear helmets, and use big cubersome flags on their backs, and paint themselves in bright colors, and don't use cover, and...

Also I believe it is blood games
Wich just show how badass they are, since they can slip trough Terra's super security systems itselves. They were also the ones who holded the Golden fortress during the siege of Terra and stormed Horus flagship with the emprah and a couple primarchs.

EDIT:
Now here's some real adeptus custodes!
http://www.deviantart.com/download/107001670/Adeptus_Custodes_by_SanguineAngel.jpg
http://www.agisn.de/assets/images/AC_Term_7.jpg
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-HZLorI1B0w/SgwO5XgsPMI/AAAAAAAAHGs/1m_gH9s6Q7c/s800/art_custodes_marines.jpg

And here they are during guard duty:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/e/eb/Emperor_Imperial_Palace_Rogue_Trader.jpg

EDIT2:And actualy, it was the custodes who ended the Age of Apostasy. The spech merines and adeptus mechanicus epic failed trying to take down a bunch of nonpowered-armored nuns, untill the adeptus custodes got tired of all the ruckus and made the sister see the light.

Isak

2009-12-14, 10:27 AM

Ahhh... Adeptus Custodes... The smartest and overall best of ALL Space Marines in WH40K. These guys are literally JUST below the Primarchs in power.

But what about the BEST of the best? The Companions?

Of all 10,000 Custodes guarding the Imperial Palace on Terra... Only 300 are chosen to actually guard the Golden Throne itself. Surely being around the Emperor for a few hundred years means a little bit has rubbed off on them? :smalltongue:

On another note, to counteract the point that all Space Marines are brightly colored berserkers that just charge in and poke stuff to death: There's a reason behind it.

The armor is so very brightly colored for a reason. The Astartes never know exactly what they'll be up against. Sure, camouflage might work against a Human enemy... But what about enemies that see heat? Or have forms of night vision? In that case, camouflage is useless, and actually a disadvantage for the fact that should a Marine somehow be mistaken in the confusion of battle; He might be accidentally shot by friendlies. Bright colored armor with dozens of logos to make the Marine stand out makes that MUCH less likely. Yes, there are a few exceptions. Raven Guard are purely based around stealth, but they're used to fighting in situations like that.

As far as the Berserker melee charges go; An Astartes is a 7 1/2 foot tall walking tank, with amazing physical abilities. Punching through concrete is nothing for these guys. Why not make use of those attributes if the situation deems it necessary? Some units will always sit back and provide support; Sternguard, Long Fangs, Devastator Squads, etc. But Tactical Squads can very much hold their own in melee, Assault Marines excel in it. Having over 1000 pounds of ceramite, plasteel, and very angry Space Marine wielding at minimum a very big chainsaw sword coming down right on your head is an AMAZING morale destroyer. And it just gets even worse when you consider Vanguard squads, which generally will come in equipped with nothing but Power Weapons of sorts. Goodbye, Armor!

Space Marines aren't "Dumb", as they're often thought to be. They're amazingly good at what they were genetically engineered to do. And that is to War. To Fight. Tactics and Strategy is their Bread and Butter. They live off of it.

hamishspence

2009-12-14, 10:58 AM

"Play to your strengths" so to speak- and their strength, is that they are very tough, and very good all-rounders.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-14, 11:43 AM

EDIT2:And actualy, it was the custodes who ended the Age of Apostasy. The spech merines and adeptus mechanicus epic failed trying to take down a bunch of nonpowered-armored nuns, untill the adeptus custodes got tired of all the ruckus and made the sister see the light.

Incorrect and biased retelling of events.

Relevant, factual, information as follows:

The end of Empire

The most disturbing news was yet to reach the High Lords and Vandire. They soon learned that the Space Marines and Adeptus Mechanicus had been kept distant by the problems with warp travel. They found that their worlds had become bastions of the old faith and were protecting the people from the invasions of Vandire. Many Chapter Masters voiced their praise of the Confederation of Light and the Adeptus Mechanicus called for the High Lords to account for themselves and to execute Vandire as a traitor. Vandire, in response, dissolved the High Lords and ordered his remaining forces to attack the revolting Space Marines and Adeptus Mechanicus forces. Many of Vandire’s officers refused and were hung or burnt as heretics and replaced by more loyal leaders, but by this time Vandire had been revealed as the fraud he was. Gastaph Hedriatix, the Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus ordered his Martian Tech-Guard to transport to Terra and was soon joined by units from the Imperial Fists, Fire Hawks, Soul Drinkers and Black Templars.
Though Vandire had let some of the Ecclesiarcal Palace to fall into ruin, the central chamber was still an almost impregnable fortress. Images were set up relating to the Horus Heresy, except this time the other way around, the heretics within the palace. The huge cannons of the Adeptus Mechanicus pounded the walls, but the Brides of the Emperor, numbering around 10,000 by now, defended with all their might. Eventually, however, it was to be from within that the greatest threat came.
The Fall of the High Lord

There was one other organisation which had remained distanced from the activities of the High Lords and of Vandire, although they were at the heart of his domain. The Adeptus Custodes had maintained their vigil over the body of the Emperor, but had closed themselves off for protection. It was only when the Space Marines and Adeptus Mechanicus moved on the Imperial Palace that they learned of the full extent of Vandire's treachery. They had secret meetings with Space Marine commanders and advised the Space Marines to continue their attack while they would do what they could.
The defences were nothing to the Adeptus Custodes, as they knew every pathway and hidden passage in the building and a small unit led by a Centurion of the Companions infiltrated the palace, emerging close to the inner sanctum of Vandire. There, the Centurion met with a unit of the Brides of the Emperor and attempted to show them that they were fighting for evil, not the good of the Imperium. They were not to be swayed however, and the Centurion had to find another way to persuade them. Eventually the Centurion came up with a plan and, leaving his men as hostages, led the leader of the Brides of the Emperor away into the tunnels under the palace. No record exists of what happened there, but it is commonly believed he led her to the Golden Throne of the Emperor himself, and upon seeing his blessed form came to realize the truth in the matter. It is a matter of record that after whatever may or may not have occurred with the Centurion, the leader of the Brides personally executed the traitor Vandire.
-Lexicanum, on the Age of Apostasy (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Age_of_Apostasy)

Oslecamo

2009-12-14, 12:04 PM

Resumed retelling of events.

Long, boring, wall of text information as follows:

Fixed that for you.

Sooo, any reason why you still keep twisting my words and not complaining about other people's blatant mistakes?

Adeptus mechanicus and spech merines failing to defeat the sisters-check.

Adeptus custodes only interfering when the batle was at their doors-check.

Adeptus custodes showing the sisters the light-check.

Adeptus custodes being stoped by the sisters(as crazedloon claimed)-not check.

Sure they let themselves be taken hostages, but they did so willingly. Why butcher valuable servants when they could be converted? And hey, if the leader didn't turn, the custodes being nearby the sisters would allow for some quick brutal melee clean up of the rebels.

crazedloon

2009-12-14, 12:12 PM

Adeptus custodes failing to solve the rebel sisters problems(as crazedloon claimed)-not check.

I never said they were trying to solve the sisters problems. Way to twist my words in a post about others twisting yours.

I believe my exact words were "Also note they were stopped by sisters of battle during the Age of Apostasy"

now looking at the above quoted text "There, the Centurion met with a unit of the Brides of the Emperor and attempted to show them that they were fighting for evil, not the good of the Imperium. They were not to be swayed however, and the Centurion had to find another way to persuade them. Eventually the Centurion came up with a plan and, leaving his men as hostages...."

Last I checked you tend to solve deputes in wars with gunfire and force of arms. Also given the general use of violence as the answer all life's problems in the year 40k the above is not talking about a little tea. However for some reason the Centurion had to actually take the lead sister away to convert her and all the while leaving his boys in a rather tight spot. If the leader of the brides did not convert back that would have been the end of it as the Centurion when of been dead and so to would his boys (I am not saying he couldn't kill the leader but her girls would finish the job shortly after ventilating the boys) And thus the reason I said the sisters stopped them because they had to find a creative way around the sisters

Edit: nice to see you can edit your post when you need to look better

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-14, 12:22 PM

Fixed that for you.
Not quite.

Sooo, any reason why you still keep twisting my words and not complaining about other people's blatant mistakes?
I happen to log on just after you've made a mistake. Call it chance.

Adeptus mechanicus and spech merines failing to defeat the sisters-check.
You made it sound like like they were defeated. In actuality, the battle was at a stalemate when the AC intervened. We do not know how it would have turned out if the conflict continued.

Definitely not an "epicfail", as you claimed. It seems that you have made an inaccurate statement.

secretbison

2009-12-14, 06:11 PM

On another note, to counteract the point that all Space Marines are brightly colored berserkers that just charge in and poke stuff to death: There's a reason behind it.

The armor is so very brightly colored for a reason. The Astartes never know exactly what they'll be up against. Sure, camouflage might work against a Human enemy... But what about enemies that see heat? Or have forms of night vision? In that case, camouflage is useless, and actually a disadvantage for the fact that should a Marine somehow be mistaken in the confusion of battle; He might be accidentally shot by friendlies. Bright colored armor with dozens of logos to make the Marine stand out makes that MUCH less likely. Yes, there are a few exceptions. Raven Guard are purely based around stealth, but they're used to fighting in situations like that.

As far as the Berserker melee charges go; An Astartes is a 7 1/2 foot tall walking tank, with amazing physical abilities. Punching through concrete is nothing for these guys. Why not make use of those attributes if the situation deems it necessary? Some units will always sit back and provide support; Sternguard, Long Fangs, Devastator Squads, etc. But Tactical Squads can very much hold their own in melee, Assault Marines excel in it. Having over 1000 pounds of ceramite, plasteel, and very angry Space Marine wielding at minimum a very big chainsaw sword coming down right on your head is an AMAZING morale destroyer. And it just gets even worse when you consider Vanguard squads, which generally will come in equipped with nothing but Power Weapons of sorts. Goodbye, Armor!

Space Marines aren't "Dumb", as they're often thought to be. They're amazingly good at what they were genetically engineered to do. And that is to War. To Fight. Tactics and Strategy is their Bread and Butter. They live off of it.

Id like to speak in defense of the "Spess Mahreens r dumb" theory. Nobody would argue that they're products of one of the most oppressive, schizophrenic dystopian states/churches ever imagined. They are engineered from the ground up to never cut their losses and withdraw or give up on a sunk cost. They really don't have an excuse for the garish colors and banners they wear. I know that 40K doesn't have all of the communications technology we have in the modern day, but they do have much more than real-world soldiers did in the early modern age of warfare, when soldiers stopped wearing bright colors and carrying giant banners.

Also, the Space Marines' strategy and tactics have always been developed in an environment that only contains other Warhammer characters. Everybody in 40K is dumb, generally in all the same ways. Even the superhuman geniuses and master schemers behave in a way that's conducive to a visually flashy miniatures game. Their superpowered equipment can see them through against many foes, but if they are pitted against enemies with the same physical power and lower levels of crazy, as they will be in this matchup, they aren't going to win.

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 07:24 PM

Id like to speak in defense of the "Spess Mahreens r dumb" theory. Nobody would argue that they're products of one of the most oppressive, schizophrenic dystopian states/churches ever imagined. They are engineered from the ground up to never cut their losses and withdraw or give up on a sunk cost. They really don't have an excuse for the garish colors and banners they wear. I know that 40K doesn't have all of the communications technology we have in the modern day, but they do have much more than real-world soldiers did in the early modern age of warfare, when soldiers stopped wearing bright colors and carrying giant banners.

Right, and the reason that units stopped wearing bright colors and carrying huge banners is that it makes you a huge target. Thanks to the invention of repeating rifles and machine guns, that was a huge liability because a single hit from either of those is likely to kill or disable, and both fire reasonably rapidly and with good accuracy. Before that firearms produced neither a high volume of fire, or particularly accurate fire. It's not a coincidence that an awful lot of 18th and 19th century actions were decided by bayonet charges, and you need to be in tight, cohesive formations either to mount or stop a charge successfully. Colorful gear and large banners are very helpful for maintaining a tight, cohesive formation.

Now gunfire in WH40K may be pretty accurate, but it also is not nearly as deadly to a Space Marine as a full powered rifle cartridge is to a human. Guys with power weapons on the other hand are very deadly, and Space Marines fight these adversaries, or others with melee weapons with some regularity. Due to their strength, equipment and training, the Marines can go head to head against these enemies with a reasonable degree of success. Against these enemies, colorful and recognizable gear to promote cohesion makes a lot of sense because it translates directly to better results on the battlefield performance.

Also, the Space Marines' strategy and tactics have always been developed in an environment that only contains other Warhammer characters. Everybody in 40K is dumb, generally in all the same ways. Even the superhuman geniuses and master schemers behave in a way that's conducive to a visually flashy miniatures game. Their superpowered equipment can see them through against many foes, but if they are pitted against enemies with the same physical power and lower levels of crazy, as they will be in this matchup, they aren't going to win.

So totally different from all the other game characters who's tactics are developed to make for interesting gameplay then.

GoC

2009-12-14, 07:32 PM

warty goblin: Are you really going to try and defend WH 40K tactics and technology?:smallconfused:

warty goblin

2009-12-14, 07:36 PM

warty goblin: Are you really going to try and defend WH 40K tactics and technology?:smallconfused:

To an extent yes. If the main threat to my survival comes from people things with large meatcleavers, and not guys with guns, reasonably tight formations make a good deal of sense. Bright colors help keep those formations coordinated. Ergo they make some sense.

Now that the primary threat to a Space Marine's person is, in many respects, a dude with an overgrown butchers knife is a bit weird to say the least, but the response to this is not particularly nonsensical.

Astrella

2009-12-14, 07:40 PM

You need to take in account that 40k isn't sci-fi, it's futuristic fantasy. That's why there's so much emphasis on heraldry, etc.
Space marine armour colouring is a matter of pride, meant to inspire fear in their enemies.

The uniforms of the Imperial Guard are camouflaged in order to protect their wearers by hiding them from sight.
The principle is that what the enemy cannot see he cannot kill. This is not the way of the Adeptus Astartes. A Space Marine’s armour is bright with heraldry that proclaims his devotion to his Chapter and the beloved Emperor of Mankind. Our principle is that what the enemy can see, he will soon learn to fear…

Camouflage is the colour of fear... I have no need to hide from my foes... I have no fear of death. My colours I wear openly, they proclaim louder than any words, "I am proud to live - I am proud to die".

Still, not all space marine chapters are of this opinion.

(And, in my opinion, the fact that it's a miniature game plays it's role as well. Non-camouflage colour schemes just look more striking and clearer.)

secretbison

2009-12-14, 09:03 PM

True, Space Marines have strong armour, but they still die pretty often, and Space Marines are much, much harder to replace than Imperial Guardsmen or real-world soldiers. In another brilliant stroke of stupidity, Space Marines carry their Space Marine eggs inside their field troops, and everyone only gets two, so it's pretty hard to properly replace a dead Space Marine unless his body is recovered. If the Space Marines were in any way a rational fighting force, they'd be more careful than the IG, not less.

Astrella

2009-12-15, 02:31 AM

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-15, 03:37 PM

Why would they need bright colors to keep track of one another? I'm sure their HUD computers can do that for them.

Oslecamo

2009-12-15, 03:45 PM

To an extent yes. If the main threat to my survival comes from people things with large meatcleavers, and not guys with guns, reasonably tight formations make a good deal of sense. Bright colors help keep those formations coordinated. Ergo they make some sense.

What about all the things with plasma/rockets/hellfire/flayer who can turn a powered armored marine into dead meat at distance just fine?

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-15, 03:48 PM

Basically, with the technology of the future, there is no reason to have suits brightly colored. Now, a large person in a large suit isn't going to be very stealthy anyways, but that's no excuse.

I can accept colors as far as the gametable, because having colorful miniatures of soldiers is fun and cool, but an ingame explanation for the phenomenon that doesn't have several significant holes in it is lacking.

Yoren

2009-12-15, 03:53 PM

Wasn't WH40k originally designed as Warhammer IN SPACE? Which is why we get Space orcs, Space elves, and Space Knights? It would also explain why everyone loves CC so much.

Also if they Games workshop made all the marines camo or dark colors they'd sell less paint and heaven for bid they take less of our money.

warty goblin

2009-12-15, 03:56 PM

Why would they need bright colors to keep track of one another? I'm sure their HUD computers can do that for them.

For a squad, or even a platoon, sure. But what about when you're coordinating multiple large groups, or have different groups of Space Marines cooperating with other elements? The Imperial Guard, insofar as I know, does not give detailed HUD drawing helmets to most of its men, and yet they fight along the Marines with some regularity I believe. Being able to say 'we're supporting the blue ones today' is a hell of a lot more memorable than 'that formation of blandly camouflaged dudes.'

What about all the things with plasma/rockets/hellfire/flayer who can turn a powered armored marine into dead meat at distance just fine?

But is the common adversary of a Space Marine armed with a weapon that kills them very reliably at range? No. I believe the books do indicate that even a Space Marine can be overcome by large numbers of entirely normal people in melee combat if they are isolated from support.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-15, 04:05 PM

Oslecamo

2009-12-15, 04:11 PM

For a squad, or even a platoon, sure. But what about when you're coordinating multiple large groups, or have different groups of Space Marines cooperating with other elements? The Imperial Guard, insofar as I know, does not give detailed HUD drawing helmets to most of its men, and yet they fight along the Marines with some regularity I believe. Being able to say 'we're supporting the blue ones today' is a hell of a lot more memorable than 'that formation of blandly camouflaged dudes.'

Imperial guard says hi. You know, formations of hundreds of thousands of mans, and they love camouflage. All mass produced. Death Korp of Kriegs officers are actualy almost impossible to distinguish from the regular troops. Only exception is the comissars and their bright red hats and coats, but well, they want to be noticed.

But is the common adversary of a Space Marine armed with a weapon that kills them very reliably at range? No.
Actual rocket launchers to the face almost always 1-hit kill a marine in fluff, and they're common heavy weapons among traitor guard. Eldars have dark reapers and D-cannons. Thousand sons fire magic bullets that pierce power armor just fine. Nids...You don't want to get in melee with the nids. Orks pierce whatever they believe they can pierce.

Wait, that could actualy justify it!
1-Orks are everwhere. By far the most common enemy in the imperium.
2-Orks weapons are as effective as they believe they are, and orks judge stuff by their looks.
3-Make the armors as big and shiny as possible to impress the orks!
4-Ork weapons have an harder time piercing big shiny armor!
5-?
6-Profit!

I believe the books do indicate that even a Space Marine can be overcome by large numbers of entirely normal people in melee combat if they are isolated from support.
This one depends on the fluff. Sometimes marines actualy separate, throw themselves into seas of inferior enemies, pull out chainswords, and become D&D fighters with greater cleave in the midle of kobolds.

Other times, yes, they do get overrun by inferior enemies if they get isolated. But rockets always work.

hamishspence

2009-12-15, 04:14 PM

Oslecamo

2009-12-15, 04:17 PM

Bolters (Chaos) aren't very good at killing marines, nor are sluggas (Orks). Most of the other common enemies (traitor human guardmen, eldar, tyranids) have fairly weak basic weapons, and even the most heavily armed (tau, necrons) don't have AP3 weaponry on basic troopers. Thousand sons and wraithlords with D-canons as troops choices say hi. Also gauss flayers can blow up landraiders. And I highly doubt a power armor is harder than a landraider.

Also, IG does take LOTS of heavy weapons. When you've got 1000 traitor guardsmen against 100 spech merines, and only 10% of the traitors have heavy weapons, the spech merines are still facing 100 autocannons/plasma guns/rocket launchers/lascanons/meltas.

And if you shoot a dude with an heavy weapon, the next in line can pick it up and keep shooting.

hamishspence

2009-12-15, 04:29 PM

In the rules, gauss weapons of all kinds can glance vehicles regardless of how low Str they are.

That said, Wraithguard troop choices (not Wraithlord) have nice weapons- not much range though.

and Thousand Sons are pretty rare.

Marine power armour will tend to keep marines alive to reach close combat against most foes.

warty goblin

2009-12-15, 05:07 PM

Imperial guard says hi. You know, formations of hundreds of thousands of mans, and they love camouflage. All mass produced. Death Korp of Kriegs officers are actualy almost impossible to distinguish from the regular troops. Only exception is the comissars and their bright red hats and coats, but well, they want to be noticed.

But do they generally form up into tight formation and charge enemies with bayonets? I'll go out on a limb and say 'no.'

Actual rocket launchers to the face almost always 1-hit kill a marine in fluff, and they're common heavy weapons among traitor guard. Eldars have dark reapers and D-cannons. Thousand sons fire magic bullets that pierce power armor just fine. Nids...You don't want to get in melee with the nids. Orks pierce whatever they believe they can pierce.
And does everybody on the battlefield have a rocket launcher? Is every Eldar- or even most- a Dark Reaper or armed with a D-Cannon? I'm guessing the Thousand Sons can't be all that many places, since their name indicates there's only a thousand of them. Meleeing with the nids strongly depends on the sort of 'nid in question, and given their numbers is probably inevitable anyway, so you might as well be able to do a good job of it.

I never said you had to be invulnerable to ranged attacks to make this a potentially worthwhile strategy, only that you were more threatened by close combat. Consider the effects of a battery of field guns on your average line of Napoleonic infantry, yet they still fought in close order for the most part because it maximized their firepower (less an issue for the Marines), and provided protection from cavalry and other massed infantry.

hamishspence

2009-12-15, 05:12 PM

I'm not sure where they got the name from- may have been due to geneseed problems which kept their numbers much lower than those of the other marines.

It's possible their name was changed when the Primarch turned up- there is precedent for this in the Horus Heresy books, with the original name of the Death Guard, being the Dusk Raiders.

After the heresy many were transformed into their present form with the Rubric of Ahriman. Which was an enormous, one-off spell. If there are "mini-rubric" spells which can create more Thousand Sons Rubric Marines, its news to me.

Suggesting that they (already a small Legion) have not added new Rubric guys in 10000 years, and over that time, will have take casualties- so they will never be a common foe for Marines.

DranWork

2009-12-15, 09:33 PM

{Scrubbed}
As to this thread whilst I do believe that each faction would put up a decent fight X-com would come out on top.

Pharaoh's Fist

2009-12-15, 09:38 PM

I'm just here to see how... inaccurate Ozzy gets. Well, and call him out on it, which produces... interesting results.

Thrawn183

2009-12-15, 10:19 PM

I'm going with the Guyver unit. Blowing chunks out of ships in orbit means you have some real firepower. Granted, it was a 50 km long ship which would make it easier to hit, but still.

Talkkno

2009-12-15, 10:22 PM

What about a lowerish-medium Solar exalt? They got powered armor to, and to be fair we could ditch the peferct defenses.

Oslecamo, The Death Korps of Kreig are a expection, not to the rule..............:smallfurious:

Bright colors do make sense, as Space Marines are shock troops. Entire planets have surreneded at the mere whisper of Space Marines coming.

DranWork

2009-12-15, 11:10 PM

{Scrubbed}

Knaight

2009-12-15, 11:39 PM

Hmm. If the Bliss mechs get down to powered armor size, that probably deals with Solar Exalts decently, otherwise, well, that is the current winner, with the possible exception of Lensman.

secretbison

2009-12-16, 12:30 AM

We need a parallel high-tier competition with the Solars vs. the Lensmen. That would be pretty hardcore.

Prime32

2009-12-16, 04:42 AM

{Scrubbed}Tekkaman Blade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmX564UTabE) isn't actually wearing armour - he transforms into a metallic lifeform.

As for Guyver, if it's in the same universe as 40K I want to see what happens when Aptom gets onto a Tyrnaid mothership. :smallbiggrin:

imp_fireball

2009-12-29, 09:31 PM

Marine power armour will tend to keep marines alive to reach close combat against most foes.

Don't jump packs work a bit like teleportation in-game too?

xPANCAKEx

2009-12-29, 10:08 PM

Don't jump packs work a bit like teleportation in-game too?

warp spiders? yes

space marines? NO. just no.

Hida Reju

2009-12-30, 02:24 AM

You want Tough?

You want full on halo round the head too tough to die?

Then you don't want the toughs. You don't want Space Marines, tough as they are. And, with all due respect, you definitely don't want X-Com.

You want Felix, from "Armor". The Engine. The man who Would. Not. Die.

Honestly, I think if you took the proposed contest from the Chief vs. Space Marine thread and dropped him on Catachan, he'd survive indefinitely.

AMEN Felix survives any attempt to kill him even if it somehow involves the whole planet exploding he gets a save vs Death by awesome every time.

Deadmeat.GW

2009-12-30, 07:56 AM

Hum, you do all know that if the situation calls for camouflage marines actually use it?

There has been several fluff stories where commanders complain because superior officers tell them to use camo, most specifically the Scorpions.

Space Wolves do actually use camouflage...surprise, surprise :)!

The biggest problem with camouflage is that you need to know what terrain type you plunge in and they removed from the table-top game the cameleoline cloaks and upgrades of this kind that were standard in the game before.

This is a case of game play being simplified and writers then ignoring that some gear is now not mentioned as it is assumed to be used...

Marine scouts for instance...

If you look at the older pictures there is several references (and images) of Space Wolves and Blood Angels using camouflage...
The Ultra Marines follow the Codex Astartes, which states that camouflage is to be used when other prerogatives do not make it impracticable or if recognition by the enemy for terror tactics is needed.

Don't forget, Marines excel at lightning warfare, sudden strikes and if they are doing something else it is usually because they have no choice for one reason or another.

Now if Space Wolves and Blood Angels use camouflage, the Codex Astartes advices to use camouflage (and lets keep in mind that over 3/4 of all the Marines are Ultra Marines or successor chapters of the Blue Ones) then you can bet that camouflage actually is something that a Marine will use if appropriate.

You know the cloaks that the First and Only Tanith uses?
It is rare for Guardsmen to have those...
Marines are supposed to have those at will, all scouts are supposed to have them but...in game terms this would make marines either over complicated or too expensive to play if added in so the game designers left them out.

With the game being based on a scale 1 to 10 and 3 being a very fit human adult...4 a near super powered creature, the comparison is very difficult.
Remember even in the fluff (most of the time at least, there are notable exceptions and those writers were slapped on the wrist afterwards when what they had done was clearly shown to the studio people) when the people are facing marines/chaos marines (and when they are the main heroes like in Gaunt's Ghosts) the marines are depicted as extremely scary.
Taking an absolute pounding from lesser (i.e. not plot-powered) beings while with their bare hands ripping armoured self-propelled guns open to get at the soft occupants..., withstanding extreme blows and only falling in single shots versus either extremely accurate (shot to the eye type) or extra powerfull (like plasma guns, which kinda are light anti-tank weapons with good armour penetration, the older editions had weapons with armour penetration shown more clearly).

This are a divergence from the older table-top to the current table-top and the semi-rpg with the Inquisitor game shows the difference quite well.
Of course the ranges on the weapons were down-sized to make the game even remotely playable, you really don't want to try and sell a game that requires a small garage to play at the minimum.
Some weapons were underpowered in there but that was part of the semi-rpg side of the game where they did not want to insta-gib all the players with basic support weapons.
In there the marines are incredibly dangerous to any standard guy, and those were standard marines, not even some uber marines.

Dervag

2009-12-30, 12:24 PM

X-Com:

Auto fire modes on the main gun can occasionally cut through an alloy that shrugs off nukes and laughs at cannons that penetrate 10 inches of steel. And yes, it is more powerful than a rocket launcher. An X-Com rocket launcher, which can destroy a warehouse in one shot.

Squad support weapons pack more kick per inch than atomic weapons, rip open otherwise invincible spaceships, and destroy small city blocks in in a shot. And it's able make 90 degree turns in mid flight to hit the target. We're talking 100% accurate.

X-Com armor can survive hits from either of those weapons. And sometimes even let the guy inside survive it.I still think you're overstating the firepower of some of the terrestrial stuff in X-COM. While the designers may excitedly claim that fighter cannons can penetrate ten inches of steel... they can't. They really can not. For pity's sake, the Warthog's gun can't crack more than three inches at plausible combat ranges!

It makes far more sense to imagine the cannon shells an X-COM interceptor is uselessly peppering the alien craft with as being standard 20mm rounds from a Vulcan (or maybe 25's from the lighter GAU variants carried by aircraft like the Harrier), rather than being a radical advance in weapon technology above and beyond anything that now exists.

Also, X-COM soldiers armed with heavy plasma weapons cannot penetrate the outer hull of a UFO, even one of the little ones that is easily brought down by a couple of Avalanche strikes. Assuming for the sake of argument that the Avalanche is a nuclear-tipped air to air missile, given reasonable proximity fuzing distances, that somewhat reduces the awesomeness factor of the plasma guns. They're still awesome, just not as awesome.
_____

That's how X-Com rolls, son. If computer guided nukes don't do the job, mind powers will.

And most vets are pretty much immune to psychic powers.Mostly by process of elimination. If you survive to be anything resembling a "vet" in late-game X-COM, you're probably nigh-immune to mind control. And to being shot in the back by the rookies who weren't immune to mind control.

[Excuse me. This was based on a gross misrepresentation of X-COM tactics. X-COM puts the rookies in the front, so that when they are predictably mind-controlled and used against their fellows the shots strike the more heavily armored front of the veterans' suits.]
_____

True, Space Marines have strong armour, but they still die pretty often, and Space Marines are much, much harder to replace than Imperial Guardsmen or real-world soldiers. In another brilliant stroke of stupidity, Space Marines carry their Space Marine eggs inside their field troops, and everyone only gets two, so it's pretty hard to properly replace a dead Space Marine unless his body is recovered. If the Space Marines were in any way a rational fighting force, they'd be more careful than the IG, not less.Yeah. The smart way to use Space Marines would be comparable to what Special Forces are used for in real life. And the Special Forces are not notorious for wearing brightly colored armor and shouting how proud they are to die in battle.
_____

But is the common adversary of a Space Marine armed with a weapon that kills them very reliably at range? No. I believe the books do indicate that even a Space Marine can be overcome by large numbers of entirely normal people in melee combat if they are isolated from support.Any decent antitank weapon in the setting can kill Space Marines at range fairly reliably. Krak missiles or lascannon fire from renegade Imperial Guard will do it. So will heavy artillery; something equivalent to a Basilisk can reduce entire tactical squads to jelly. About the only enemy I know of that the Space Marines fight regularly that can't kill them reliably at range is orks, and that's because orks can't shoot for beans anyway.

I mean, the average opponent's weapon isn't a reliable Space Marine killer, but Space Marines are rarely committed to battle at 1 to 1 odds. It's more typical for a platoon or company of Space Marines to engage a company, battalion, or even regiment of merely human opponents... in which case you not only have a mass of lightly armed normals for the Marines to deal with, but also squad support and antitank weapons in numbers comparable to the Marines' standard infantry.
_____

Hmm. If the Bliss mechs get down to powered armor size, that probably deals with Solar Exalts decently, otherwise, well, that is the current winner, with the possible exception of Lensman.Lensman power armor isn't necessarily all that impressive except for its insane flight capability. Unless the wearer goes free, he's still vulnerable to autocannon and heavy energy weapons that aren't clearly more powerful than those in other high-end settings (like X-COM heavy plasma and 40k plasma, melta, or lascannon-type weapons). After going free he's practically invulnerable, unless you pin him up against a wall, but at the price of being largely ineffective in combat against inert opponents.

Johel

2009-12-30, 12:59 PM

Yeah. The smart way to use Space Marines would be comparable to what Special Forces are used for in real life. And the Special Forces are not notorious for wearing brightly colored armor and shouting how proud they are to die in battle.

Any decent antitank weapon in the setting can kill Space Marines at range fairly reliably. Krak missiles or lascannon fire from renegade Imperial Guard will do it. So will heavy artillery; something equivalent to a Basilisk can reduce entire tactical squads to jelly. About the only enemy I know of that the Space Marines fight regularly that can't kill them reliably at range is orks, and that's because orks can't shoot for beans anyway.

I mean, the average opponent's weapon isn't a reliable Space Marine killer, but Space Marines are rarely committed to battle at 1 to 1 odds. It's more typical for a platoon or company of Space Marines to engage a company, battalion, or even regiment of merely human opponents... in which case you not only have a mass of lightly armed normals for the Marines to deal with, but also squad support and antitank weapons in numbers comparable to the Marines' standard infantry.

I agree with the "Special Force" bit.

Their name is Space Marines for a reason : a squad equipped like them would be very efficient in boarding operations in space.
Similarly, Space Marines would thrive in any small-scale engagements, where they can simply overwhelm their foes on the tactical level.

But using whole companies of them as garrison or to spear-head a frontal assault ? That's just a waste. No matter the amount of training and technology you give to a soldier, he'll die all the same as a recruit if he's took under artillery fire.

I have to disagree for the "Bright Armor" bit, though.

It'd not be that much of a problem for boarding operations or for shock troopers, as speed and firepower matters more than discretion. Being big, armored and loud can even help in those situation.

Space Marines aren't for infiltration... Chances are that even with camouflage, a 8 feet-tall heavily armored guy wouldn't exactly goes unnoticed. But there was the "Reasonable Marine" concept on 4chan.

chiasaur11

2009-12-30, 03:13 PM

I still think you're overstating the firepower of some of the terrestrial stuff in X-COM. While the designers may excitedly claim that fighter cannons can penetrate ten inches of steel... they can't. They really can not. For pity's sake, the Warthog's gun can't crack more than three inches at plausible combat ranges!

It makes far more sense to imagine the cannon shells an X-COM interceptor is uselessly peppering the alien craft with as being standard 20mm rounds from a Vulcan (or maybe 25's from the lighter GAU variants carried by aircraft like the Harrier), rather than being a radical advance in weapon technology above and beyond anything that now exists.

Also, X-COM soldiers armed with heavy plasma weapons cannot penetrate the outer hull of a UFO, even one of the little ones that is easily brought down by a couple of Avalanche strikes. Assuming for the sake of argument that the Avalanche is a nuclear-tipped air to air missile, given reasonable proximity fuzing distances, that somewhat reduces the awesomeness factor of the plasma guns. They're still awesome, just not as awesome.

Fair enough.

And I doubt the ten inches, even taken at face value, would be at standard combat ranges. Heck, the cannon I mainly find amusing.

Still, handheld plasma not breaking UFO walls isn't too bad considering nukes can only do real damage if they make the engine go critical. And the increase in firepower that thing has over the laser is impressive, considering that the laser reduces stone walls to rubble.

Flickerdart

2009-12-30, 03:44 PM

Hm...how about any of the master Stalkers from Shadow of Chernobyl that use exoskeletons? They're incredibly good at surviving, and also incredibly wealthy, so their equipment is going to be very good as well as well-maintained (because a Stalker that doesn't know how to take care of his things is a dead Stalker). I'd certainly bet on one of these fellows over even the Lone Wanderer, whose Wasteland is nowhere near the Zone in terms of delightful horrors, and who has to deal with ill-maintained and ancient tech.

Dervag

2009-12-30, 03:53 PM

Fair enough.

And I doubt the ten inches, even taken at face value, would be at standard combat ranges. Heck, the cannon I mainly find amusing.

Still, handheld plasma not breaking UFO walls isn't too bad considering nukes can only do real damage if they make the engine go critical. And the increase in firepower that thing has over the laser is impressive, considering that the laser reduces stone walls to rubble.True, true. On the other hand, real-life air to air nukes were proximity fuzed. Assuming the Avalanche is in fact a relatively normal nuclear-tipped missile, the UFOs are surviving airbursts a few hundred meters away (from a relatively puny warhead at that), not direct hits. At that point, it's less of a surprise that a directed energy weapon can throw as much energy into an area of a few square centimeters as a small nuclear blast can into an area of a square kilometer or so*.

Of course, in that case standard air-to-air missiles with their annular blast-fragmentation warheads shouldn't even scratch the paint...

I have some ideas about how to rationalize (for given values of "rational") all this stuff; if I ever write that massive X-COM story idea I've got ringing around my head it'll be there. I'll be sure to pass you a link.

*the surface area the fireball covers at the UFO's distance from the point of detonation...
______

I agree with the "Special Force" bit.

Their name is Space Marines for a reason : a squad equipped like them would be very efficient in boarding operations in space.
Similarly, Space Marines would thrive in any small-scale engagements, where they can simply overwhelm their foes on the tactical level.

But using whole companies of them as garrison or to spear-head a frontal assault ? That's just a waste. No matter the amount of training and technology you give to a soldier, he'll die all the same as a recruit if he's took under artillery fire.

I have to disagree for the "Bright Armor" bit, though.

It'd not be that much of a problem for boarding operations or for shock troopers, as speed and firepower matters more than discretion. Being big, armored and loud can even help in those situation.

Space Marines aren't for infiltration... Chances are that even with camouflage, a 8 feet-tall heavily armored guy wouldn't exactly goes unnoticed. But there was the "Reasonable Marine" concept on 4chan.Interesting, well reasoned. The catch is that there are a lot of "special forces" concepts for Space Marines where their bright armor and in-your-face tactics* get in the way of accomplishing the mission, where they'd do a better job fighting like Imperial Guard stormtroopers, even given the massive power armor.

*Yes, yes, I know, they don't all fight that way...

GoC

2009-12-30, 04:07 PM

Now that the primary threat to a Space Marine's person is, in many respects, a dude with an overgrown butchers knife is a bit weird to say the least, but the response to this is not particularly nonsensical.
The fact that they are a threat in the first place speaks volumes...

I'd go so far as to say that if I had to bet on a group of space marines vs their weight in prepared US marines my money is on the guys with decent tactics and HEAT.

Also, why is everyone forgetting Tagon's Toughs?

Johel

2009-12-30, 04:20 PM

Texas_Ben

2009-12-31, 12:35 AM

I'd go so far as to say that if I had to bet on a group of space marines vs their weight in prepared US marines my money is on the guys with decent tactics and HEAT.

Depends on how many Marines vs how many Marines. I don't imagine your average group of US Marines carries more than a few HEAT weapons. If there are more Space Marines than HEAT weapons, well that's doesn't end too well for the US Marines.

warty goblin

2009-12-31, 01:23 AM

The fact that they are a threat in the first place speaks volumes...
In the grim darkness of the future there is only weirdness.

I'd go so far as to say that if I had to bet on a group of space marines vs their weight in prepared US marines my money is on the guys with decent tactics and HEAT.
Assuming you can hit. Remember, most HEAT rounds are, unsurprisingly, designed to hit tanks. Tanks are a good bit bigger than a Space Marine, and also a good bit more likely to blow up nastily when you pierce their armor because of all the explosives they keep in there. I don't think Space Marine armor tends to actually explode all that often. Plus its pretty possible that Marine armor, being made out of futuristic high tech ceramics is reasonably effective against HEAT rounds.

Also, why is everyone forgetting Tagon's Toughs?
Because, really, they win anything. Face facts, once they realize the enemy doesn't have Teraport Denial, they enjoy such a tremendous advantage in both tactical and strategic maneuverability that nobody else has a chance. Combine that with a history of packing serious firepower, and routinely operating with close air support (as an added bonus their armor can fly so in a pinch they can be their own CAS), and it's gonna be a massacre.

hamishspence

2009-12-31, 06:26 AM

Going by the Imperial Armour pages on Space Marines, those shoulderpads contain reactive armour- that explodes outward when hit sufficiently hard, destroying an incoming heavy projectile and protecting the Marine.

toasty

2009-12-31, 06:39 AM

The fact that they are a threat in the first place speaks volumes...

I'd go so far as to say that if I had to bet on a group of space marines vs their weight in prepared US marines my money is on the guys with decent tactics and HEAT.

Also, why is everyone forgetting Tagon's Toughs?

Falling from the sky in a big explosion and a cloud of dust and then rushing out and blowing everyone up with Semi-Auto RPG guns (or with Chainsaws and Light-saberesque swords) seems like a very viable tactic. Especially when you can get picked up by a helicopter Thunderhawk right after everyone is dead.

Sure US marines are good at what they do, but they aren't used to fighting on the Galactic Scale, so they can't really compare. Plus, if M16=Autogun=Lasgun... even with a few special weapons the Marine's standard weapon is very, very, bad -- compared to Space Marine Armor, at least.

hamishspence

2009-12-31, 06:43 AM

Maybe because their standard weapon isn't optimized to fight other marines, but low-armoured guys.

Going by the 2nd ed wargear book, autoguns can be distnguished from "stub weapons" by being caseless-

stub weapons like the stub pistol, heavy stubber, etc are the equivalent of modern day automatics and machine guns, but autoguns are a bit more sophisticated.

Oslecamo

2009-12-31, 07:08 AM

In the grim darkness of the future there is only weirdness.
QFT!

Assuming you can hit. Remember, most HEAT rounds are, unsurprisingly, designed to hit tanks. Tanks are a good bit bigger than a Space Marine, and also a good bit more likely to blow up nastily when you pierce their armor because of all the explosives they keep in there.

1-Spech merines carry grenades, their armors have explosive power sources and even their bullets are super explosive.
2-Spech merines have the habit of walking in tight groups of 5-8 dudes with bright colours that make them lovely targets for explosive weapons.

I don't think Space Marine armor tends to actually explode all that often. Plus its pretty possible that Marine armor, being made out of futuristic high tech ceramics is reasonably effective against HEAT rounds.

Krak missiles tear apart marines just fine, and they don't seem to be any better than our actual anti tank weaponry.

GoC

2009-12-31, 09:15 AM

Depends on how many Marines vs how many Marines. I don't imagine your average group of US Marines carries more than a few HEAT weapons. If there are more Space Marines than HEAT weapons, well that's doesn't end too well for the US Marines.
You will note I said "prepared" and "their weight in".:smalltongue:
So I can expect at least five HEAT weapons per space marine and probably many many more (10 or so would be likely).

Assuming you can hit. Remember, most HEAT rounds are, unsurprisingly, designed to hit tanks. Tanks are a good bit bigger than a Space Marine, and also a good bit more likely to blow up nastily when you pierce their armor because of all the explosives they keep in there. I don't think Space Marine armor tends to actually explode all that often. Plus its pretty possible that Marine armor, being made out of futuristic high tech ceramics is reasonably effective against HEAT rounds.
You wouldn't need to blow up the space marine and HEAT isn't designed to blow things up. It's designed to make a jet of copper that goes so fast any material can be treated as a liquid, the actual explosion is incidental. Biologicals are quite squishy and unlikely to survive copper going through their internals.
Their ceramics might be effective depending on the thickness. But I did specify prepared marine so they would probably pack a slightly larger HEAT round.

1-Spech merines carry grenades, their armors have explosive power sources and even their bullets are super explosive.
2-Spech merines have the habit of walking in tight groups of 5-8 dudes with bright colours that make them lovely targets for explosive weapons.
HEAT does not work that way.:smallsigh:

Talya

2009-12-31, 09:56 AM

Also throw in a squad of Robotech Expeditionary Force soldiers with Cyclone cycles/battle armor.

imp_fireball

2010-01-01, 10:32 PM

warp spiders? yes

space marines? NO. just no.

In-game mechanics? Really?

You wouldn't need to blow up the space marine and HEAT isn't designed to blow things up. It's designed to make a jet of copper that goes so fast any material can be treated as a liquid, the actual explosion is incidental. Biologicals are quite squishy and unlikely to survive copper going through their internals.
Their ceramics might be effective depending on the thickness. But I did specify prepared marine so they would probably pack a slightly larger HEAT round.

So wait, by that logic, a rail gun would make things explode too (because of the shock wave it creates due to its speed, not because of the bullet itself). Also the bullet would probably explode upon first contact with something rather than pass through, unless I'm wrong about conservation of mass.

GoC

2010-01-02, 07:45 AM

So wait, by that logic, a rail gun would make things explode too (because of the shock wave it creates due to its speed, not because of the bullet itself).
I'm not sure... Shock waves are complicated things.

Also the bullet would probably explode upon first contact with something rather than pass through, unless I'm wrong about conservation of mass.
More disintegrate then explode (you'll get a cone of destruction not a sphere).

warty goblin

2010-01-02, 10:46 AM

You will note I said "prepared" and "their weight in".:smalltongue:
So I can expect at least five HEAT weapons per space marine and probably many many more (10 or so would be likely).

That seems like a bit of a weird comparison, since that's manifestly not how Marines fight. It's also completely impractical. Most HEAT weapons these days are crew serviced. Checking this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps# Missile_Launchers) gives a list of current rocket launcher type dealies in use by the USMC. Of the weapons on that list, only the AT4 is not crew serviced, and it's a single shot dumbfire weapon only effective to 300 meters. It weighs nearly 7kg- and it's the lightest on that list as well. It's also got a freaking massive backblast, so you'd be pretty lucky to live long enough to get off a second shot.

You wouldn't need to blow up the space marine and HEAT isn't designed to blow things up. It's designed to make a jet of copper that goes so fast any material can be treated as a liquid, the actual explosion is incidental. Biologicals are quite squishy and unlikely to survive copper going through their internals.
I'm aware of how HEAT works, and what it does. My point was that since a Space Marine is unlikely to explode, hitting them is far from a guarenteed kill. Having redundant organs is quite handy that way. And again, there's the problem of hitting, because with the exception of stuff like Javelins, a lot of HEAT weapon systems fire pretty slow (relatively speaking) projectiles, and I think it's far from given that the guided weapons could lock on to a Space Marine all that well.

Their ceramics might be effective depending on the thickness. But I did specify prepared marine so they would probably pack a slightly larger HEAT round.
Which further reduces the number of actual projectiles you can fire. Remember, crew serviced.

Texas_Ben

2010-01-02, 12:30 PM

Plus, if M16=Autogun=Lasgun... even with a few special weapons the Marine's standard weapon is very, very, bad -- compared to Space Marine Armor, at least.
Autoguns are .50 caliber. And, as you said, an autogun is very comparable to a lasgun in power. And by all accounts, a bolter is very very very superior to a lasgun.

Dervag

2010-01-02, 04:46 PM

Just looking at the thickness of the plate on Space Marine armor, and given that they could easily replace those plates with an equivalent amount of steel if steel was a better armor than what they're already using... I'd say that there's no question of 5.56 mm NATO rounds being able to go through. I very much doubt 7.62 mm could go through either, at which point the only thing that has even the slightest chance of success would be the heavy weapons. There aren't going to be enough of those firing fast enough to win the day.

Prime32

2010-01-02, 06:14 PM

When did this thread turn from "Every armoured guy ever VS. each other" into "WH40K discussion, with emphasis on fighting unarmoured guys"? :smallconfused:

hamishspence

2010-01-02, 06:18 PM

40K has a tendency to dominate power-armour threads.

Maybe we should focus on how power armour performs in the novels? And how much of a difference it makes when it is, say, a Sister of Battle, or an Inquisitor, rather than a Marine, in the armour?

One of the distinctive things virtually all the novels have- power armour increases the speed, agility, and strength, of normal people.

Though only in Marines, is the strength increased enough to "show up" on the tabletop.

GoC

2010-01-02, 06:51 PM

That seems like a bit of a weird comparison, since that's manifestly not how Marines fight. It's also completely impractical. Most HEAT weapons these days are crew serviced. Checking this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_the_United_States_Marine_Corps# Missile_Launchers) gives a list of current rocket launcher type dealies in use by the USMC. Of the weapons on that list, only the AT4 is not crew serviced, and it's a single shot dumbfire weapon only effective to 300 meters. It weighs nearly 7kg- and it's the lightest on that list as well. It's also got a freaking massive backblast, so you'd be pretty lucky to live long enough to get off a second shot.
Don't Space Marines weight over half a ton?

I'm aware of how HEAT works, and what it does. My point was that since a Space Marine is unlikely to explode, hitting them is far from a guarenteed kill. Having redundant organs is quite handy that way. And again, there's the problem of hitting, because with the exception of stuff like Javelins, a lot of HEAT weapon systems fire pretty slow (relatively speaking) projectiles, and I think it's far from given that the guided weapons could lock on to a Space Marine all that well.
Acknowledged. Though I do think losing most of their innards will kill them.

When did this thread turn from "Every armoured guy ever VS. each other" into "WH40K discussion, with emphasis on fighting unarmoured guys"? :smallconfused:
When we concluded that Tagon's Toughs would pwn everyone?

Prime32

2010-01-02, 07:00 PM

When we concluded that Tagon's Toughs would pwn everyone?We concluded that? There are guys here who can blow up cities.

Also, another entrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MazinSaga).

GoC

2010-01-02, 07:06 PM

We concluded that?
You disagree?:smallconfused:

chiasaur11

2010-01-02, 07:51 PM

You disagree?:smallconfused:

I do.

This ain't the toughs and their ships, which is kinda whew most of the heavy terraport gear is if I remember right.

Other than that, they're fast, but not so fast so that, say, an X-Com agent couldn't get a shot in, they're tough, but not so tough that Heavy Plasma won't ruin their day, and they got jack/squat to deal with the toughest psychics, who WILL be wrecking everyone's day to a greater or lesser extent. Even the Enclave lives in a world with some heavy duty counter psi gear. If Schlock was invited to play, he might be resistant, but...

No armor, no invite.

So, yeah. Field's still open.

(And Felix, in Scout armor, would still be alive at the end of this no matter what else happens. That guy makes everyone else here look like amateurs at the not dying game.)

Texas_Ben

2010-01-02, 08:20 PM

Don't Space Marines weight over half a ton?

The Master Chief, in his armor, weighs half a ton. I can't imagine a fully-armored space marine weighing less than Master Chief, so half a ton is the absolute lower bound. I imagine the actual weight is between 1 and 1.5 tons.

warty goblin

2010-01-02, 11:01 PM

Don't Space Marines weight over half a ton?

If you're equiping a US Marine with half a ton of rocket launchers, you have effectively taken the comparison to reducto ad absurdium already. I'm not a Marine, but I'd be very surprised if they routinely went into battle carrying five times their weight in rockets.

Acknowledged. Though I do think losing most of their innards will kill them. It certainly won't be a trip to the spa.

We concluded that? There are guys here who can blow up cities.

Also, another entrant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MazinSaga).
The Schlock Mercenary guys can do that. With grenades small enough to be disguised as epaulets, and have a yield of 13.75 kilotons. That puts it at the low end of the bomb used to destroy Hiroshema.

GoC

2010-01-03, 06:27 AM

This ain't the toughs and their ships, which is kinda whew most of the heavy terraport gear is if I remember right.
The terraport device is small enough to be held in one hand (as seen on the day of it's invention).

but not so tough that Heavy Plasma won't ruin their day,
I'm not so sure... They're got handheld firearms that tear a hole through several feet of steel and they can resist those to an extent (one of them comments that her suit can block an artillery round).

lostlittlebear

2010-01-06, 11:02 AM

Just to throw another hat into the ring:

The Mithril SRT ASs from Full Metal Panic. Sure, they might be the size of apartments, but technically they ARE power armor.

Now give each of them a reality-defying Lambda Driver, and let pwnage ensue. Though considering the ridiculous power levels already on display, maybe I shouldn't be so sure. I bet they could take the Starship Troopers/Space Marines though - Lambda Driver > Nuke.

EDIT:
Eh, and FORCE marines from Hyperion! They would just... win.

To illustrate - a standard issue FORCE assault rifle is a fully automatic Laser beam throwing, flechette grenade launching Disintegrator Ray particle cannon sniper rifle.

And their power armor gives perfect camoflage, reactive defenses, enough sheer soak to survive minor nuclear explosions and allows you to break the sound barrier in hand-to-hand combat.

Then you get the skinsuits later, which do the same thing as the Shrike, who is the frikin Lord of Time itself.

EDIT EDIT:
Culture Special Circumstances agents in suits... more win. Heck, I bet given enough Mind support SC agents could take down the Emperor of Man himself.