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FrozenOcean
2009-12-11, 09:32 PM
Hi!

Just signed up, and I've been wanting someone who actually knows what they're talking about (Unlike my DM) to help here. Well, in a few places.

So, answer me, these questions three (Pretty Please?):

No. 1: Can a Wizard get a dragon (Even a small dragon), as a familiar or pet?
-If so, can it become a Dracolich?

No. 2: Can a Wizard learn Wild Shape (Via multi-classing)?

No. 3: Does a Wizard need to take a Feat in order to properly use a scythe weapon?
(Can you guess what class I am? =D)
That's them. See, the wiki is all 3.5e, and my DM is 4e-obsessed, and also knows nothing useful.

I'm pretty new to this, and I haven't got any of the books yet (Which makes my DM my only source of 4e knowledge). However, he is letting me Homebrew the Dire Kitten and Dire Puppy as Wild Shape-able forms if I ever learn it in the future.

Zincorium
2009-12-11, 09:47 PM
Er, tis complicated.

1. Not that I know of. Familiars aren't even a class feature for wizards anymore.

2. You can learn wildshape-type powers via multiclass feats. Nowhere near 3.x type wildshape, though.

3. Yes. But you can take it at 1st level, as I recall.


4th edition isn't as inherently malleable as previous editions- that's one of it's main drawbacks. On the other hand, character classes mean entirely different things, so being a wizard isn't the obvious choice all the time for a character you are used to playing as that class.

R. Shackleford
2009-12-11, 09:52 PM
You can have your familiar look however you want. That doesn't mean it can actually do what it looks like it should.

Wizard can take the multiclass feat at level one and get one wild shape attack. You'll have to drop some feats into it later on to get more.

FoE
2009-12-11, 10:01 PM
Are these 3.5E or 4E questions? 'Tis very confusing.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-11, 10:11 PM
Are these 3.5E or 4E questions? 'Tis very confusing.

4e, sorry. It's because all I can ever find online are 3.5e rules, yet my DM only lets us use 4e 'AND 4E ONLY!'. I haven't even played 3.5e, and already I'm seeing, more and more, that it's better...

Alrighty, thanks for answers, guys!

Also, Q1 really just meant 'I can haz pet dwagon?', =D

Gametime
2009-12-11, 10:12 PM
Arcane Power has rules for familiars. You take a feat to obtain one, and have a variety of (mechanically different) familiars from which to choose. As I recall, a young dragon is one of the options. It cannot become a dracolich. (And in 4th, familiars are actually magically-created extensions of your being rather than magically-bonded but distinct creatures. This dragon won't ever age into a more powerful dragon, but on the bright side it can't ever really die!)

jmbrown
2009-12-11, 10:15 PM
4th edition is vastly different than 3rd edition and even though some aspects are similar you're only hurting yourself by reading 3.5's srd and applying it to 4th edition.

The 4th edition rules have a limited open license so you're not going to find the rules legally written anywhere online. Your best option is just to get the PHB.

erikun
2009-12-11, 10:16 PM
Is this 3.5 edition or 4th edition? Because the answers greatly depend on which edition - there are vast differences between the two. The 3.5e SRD has no relation to the 4th edition rules.


No. 1: Can a Wizard get a dragon (Even a small dragon), as a familiar or pet?
-If so, can it become a Dracolich?
3.5e I believe there is an "Improved Familiar" feat somewhere that will allow you to take a young dragon as a familiar. I'm not sure where the feat is found, though.

There are no rules for turning your dragon familiar into a dracolich (or anything else). Technically, the process of becoming a dracolich kills the familiar, so it wouldn't be a familiar after the process. You can ask your DM to fiat the transformation process if s/he is willing.

4e Familiars are found in Arcane Power, and are more spirit companions than actual creatures. I think there is actually a dragon familiar, and if not, the section encourages refluffing familiars to match whatever you want.

No rules for making it undead, although you could certainly call it an undead dragon.


No. 2: Can a Wizard learn Wild Shape (Via multi-classing)?
3.5e Anyone who takes 5 levels of Druid can wildshape. Please note that multiclassing as a spellcaster (Wizard 5/Druid 5, in this case) makes you very underpowered. You will need higher levels of Druid to wildshape more often. (Druid 5 is only once/day)

4e The Initiate of the Old Faith (PHB2, p.196) is a multiclass feat which gives you the wildshape ability at will. Note that you need to wildshape into something your size - you need to use an appropriate utility power to turn into a mouse or something that can fly. (Acolyte Power feat, level 8+, can swap a wizard utility with a druid utility)

Also, if you have rules for dual-classing, you could be a Wizard|Druid.


No. 3: Does a Wizard need to take a Feat in order to properly use a scythe weapon?
3.5e The Wizard either needs to take the Martial Weapon Proficiency (Scythe) feat, or multiclass into a class that has proficiency with the scythe. You only need one level of the multiclass.

4e The Wizard need to take the Weapon Proficiency (Scythe) feat.

Zincorium
2009-12-11, 10:20 PM
Gotta second JMBrown. If you don't have the rules to look through, 3.5 material will hurt more than it will help.

4th edition is different. That's kind of the point. Nothing in 3.5 translates directly, and any expectations based on 3rd ed should be dropped.

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-11, 10:25 PM
I judge you're asking about 4e, in hopes of adapting something from 3.5?

Well! You're gonna get a lot of "it's sort of complicated" answers. Sorry. You've got complicated questions. EDIT: And also I happen to be ridiculously long-winded.



1. Dragons: Sure! No problem. For one feat, you can get a really nice pseudodragon familiar at first level. Well worth a feat, by 4e standards, but don't expect too much out of the little guy. He'll translate into Draconic for you, fly around to his heart's content, lend you a bit of draconic endurance, and if you have any suitable spells he can spit one at your enemies dragonbreath-style each encounter... but that's all. He en't exactly going to be substituting for your party's fighter any time soon.

Now, if you want more than that, there are a couple of ways it could go. First off, there are a couple of feats that make a familiar more useful; one feat lets them harry opponents a little and get a better aim on nearby ones, another lets them take a hit for you once a day (it'll discorporate the poor little guy--but familiars are made of magic, so you can just will him back together), and so on.

Second: buy a sufficiently dragon-y mount. Drakes and hippogriffs are quite affordable at a pretty low level, and it wouldn't take too much tweaking to make one into a small (and by small of course I mean Large) dragon. Glidewings and veserabs start being affordable shortly thereafter, and they might be even easier to reflavor.

Third: your DM could just add a dragon-y companion character to the party and treat the encounter calculations as if you had an extra party member. Would not be hard at all, but that would be more on the DM than on you.



2. Wild shape? Certainly. A single feat (which you can take at first level, with a 13 Wisdom) will multiclass you into Druid, giving you wild shape at-will and a druid beast-form power to use with it as a per-encounter ability (an attack like Pounce, or Raking Claws, or something).

A couple of caveats with that, though; wild shape doesn't work quite like it did. It's less codified than it once was. Druids get it at first level, and can take the shape of whatever sorts of animal they like, but their mastery over--whatever they choose to be--is limited. You can turn into a swordfish, say, but you don't actually know how to make gills work until you get to a higher level and pick a utility power that gives you water breathing. So you'd be a kind of funny sort of fish, swiftly flopping about the battlefield and thrusting your pointy bit at opponents' shins.

Most pertinently, druids get a selection of at-will beast form powers, again like Pounce or Raking Claws. Those become their go-to "claw/bite/sting things" abilities. But the initial druid multiclass feat only lets you use one of those per encounter, so you're not going to be clawing people for long; it takes effort and training to fight like a dire kitten effectively for more than a round or so.

Now, multiclassing will get you more than that. It'll take more feats, though. Being a half-elf would also help, since their racial ability lets them mimic one of another class's at-will powers once per fight.

OR you could play a hybrid wizard|druid--essentially half wizard and half druid (the furry half). That wouldn't really take any effort whatsoever to make work, as long as you keep your Wisdom and Intelligence scores high.



3. Scythes: Well, it depends on your definition of "properly". :smallsmile: A wizard could use one right out of the box... but, since wizards don't have any weapon-based powers, you'd be limited to melee basic attacks, which use Strength for attack and damage; and you wouldn't be proficient, so you wouldn't get the +2 to weapon attacks that a proficient user would (but, since most people are proficient in the weapons they use, monster AC is generally two or three points higher to account for that).

A feat, Melee Training (Intelligence), would let you use Intelligence instead of Strength for attack and damage. Another feat, Weapon Proficiency, would give you the +2 proficiency bonus.

Now, that's not the only way to go about it. See, there's a class called the Swordmage, which uses light and heavy blades for implements (essentially weapons for caster-types, like staves and wands and holy symbols). A different feat, Arcane Implement Proficiency (Swordmage Heavy Blades) would let you use your scythe to channel arcane magic. You could take Thunderwave as one of your at-will spells, and reflavor it as slashing at people with said scythe.

(Reflavoring is kind of common in 4e.)

Or you could multiclass Swordmage, to make such a weapon... you know... useful. Wizards don't really need scythes much normally, because throwing around fire and calling down the thunder is kind of their specialty, and it works quite well without needing any additional reaping tools. Or, uh, I guess you could actually go ahead and just play a Swordmage. They're pretty neat.

Kurald Galain
2009-12-12, 03:52 AM
No. 1: Can a Wizard get a dragon (Even a small dragon), as a familiar or pet?
In 3E, yes, with the Improved Familiar feat.
In 4E, yes, with the Arcane Familiar feat.



-If so, can it become a Dracolich?
In 3E... possibly. I haven't actually heard of it, but I'm sure there's some combination of splatbooks that does this.
In 4E, no. But you can take a regular familiar and call it a dracolich.



No. 2: Can a Wizard learn Wild Shape (Via multi-classing)?
In 3E, not really: you can do it by taking lots of levels in druid, but that probably means you're more a druid than a wizard.
In 4E, not really: the multiclass feat for druids lets you wild shape, but this is strictly cosmetic and doesn't actually do anything.



No. 3: Does a Wizard need to take a Feat in order to properly use a scythe weapon?
In 3E, no. That is, you will suck at melee attacks even with the feat, but if you have an enemy disabled (with, say, a sleep spell) then a scythe is an excellent choice for killing it dead, even without the feat.
In 4E, yes, but probably not the feat you thought: the Arcane Implement feat lets you use a scythe as your implement, which means you now cast all your spells through the scythe. Wizards don't really have a reason to use melee attacks, otherwise.

oxybe
2009-12-12, 10:14 AM
my replies are in bold



No. 1: Can a Wizard get a dragon (Even a small dragon), as a familiar or pet?
-If so, can it become a Dracolich?

3.5 - possibly? i think the draconomicon has rules for dragon familiars i believe and i know Libris mortis has rules for undead familiars. ask your DM but i think it should technically be possible.

4 - the 4th ed familiar is closer to the "spirit animal" familiars originally were, IMO. there is a pseudodragon familiar and i wouldn't see how having it look like a more skeletal/zombified dracolich be a bad thing

main difference between the two is that the 3.5 familiar is a physical animal that can die, while the 4th ed one is a spirit that can be resummoned if it get the boot. one of the benefits the 3rd ed one has is since it's physical, it can interact with the world around it and manipulate objects, while the 4th ed one can be better used for some scouting in intel gethering.

No. 2: Can a Wizard learn Wild Shape (Via multi-classing)?

3.5 - yes, but he's usually better off using the various polymorph spells. a wizard would need 5 levels of druid before he could multi-class, and even then it would be pretty weak forms compared to the things of his level.

4 - i believe the druid multi-class feat allows limited access to wild shape, as well as various druid utility powers & PP/EDs can let you choose larger or smaller forms.

note that the 4th ed wild shape IS NOT the 3rd ed wild shape. it doesn't give you new forms of transportation or natural weapons, these are normally represented by the various combat powers (which i believe the multiclass feat also gives you access to when you take it).

No. 3: Does a Wizard need to take a Feat in order to properly use a scythe weapon?

3.5 - yes. without weapon proficiency (scythe) you take a -4 on all attacks made with it. taking a level in a class proficient with it will effectively do the same but honestly... you're better off using the feat for something else and multi-classing will mean losing a caster level, generally a bad thing.

not many occasions a wizard would want to melee things up, unless he's polymorphed into something or his enemy is in a coup-de-grace position. the first means you won't be using a weapon while the second is an auto-hit so your penalty is moot anyways.

4 - yes. without the weapon proficiency (scythe) you don't get the proficiency bonus on your attacks made with it.

like in 3rd, you have little reason to grab a melee weapon and make an attack with it, especially when you have close ranged spells like thunderwave or the old "5ft step+cast" if you want to magic missile someone.

(Can you guess what class I am? =D)
That's them. See, the wiki is all 3.5e, and my DM is 4e-obsessed, and also knows nothing useful.

I'm pretty new to this, and I haven't got any of the books yet (Which makes my DM my only source of 4e knowledge). However, he is letting me Homebrew the Dire Kitten and Dire Puppy as Wild Shape-able forms if I ever learn it in the future.

CrazySopher
2009-12-12, 02:19 PM
No. 1: Can a Wizard get a dragon (Even a small dragon), as a familiar or pet?
-If so, can it become a Dracolich? Dragon, yes. Dracolich? Not if you want it to work different mechanically. But all you have to do is say it's a Dracolich, or alter the rules slightly with your DM's permission. As long as the DM can make sure the world reacts differently than as if it were just a Dragon, that's the important part



No. 2: Can a Wizard learn Wild Shape (Via multi-classing)?
To an extant, yes. Wizards can use Wild Shape once per day, I believe, if they multiclass with Druid. If you Paragon multiclass, or take Druidic Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, you might be able to increase the number of times you Wild Shape. It isn't as versatile as 3.5, not by any means, but it might be a good way to give yourself some alternate close-range punch for a little bit if you really need it that badly.


No. 3: Does a Wizard need to take a Feat in order to properly use a scythe weapon? Martial Weapon Proficiency: Scythe will let you use the weapon without losing the proficiency bonus to hit. That said, your class powers don't take advantage of melee at all. You'd only be able to use it for basic attacks, which use Strength for the modifier, and changing that requires another spent feat. Furthermore, because your class doesn't use it as an implement, you won't get any bonuses to attack and damage rolls with any of your non-melee spells as you level up and find magic items.

There -are- ways around this. Certain magic weapons can be used as implements, and I'm sure there's a feat somewhere that will let you under the right circumstances. But it's usefulness as a Wizard is quite limited, and I wouldn't see a good deal come of it.

What you could do instead is implement a little bit of reskinning. You could be a Druid that multiclasses into Wizard if you're that focused on Wildshape. Swordmage is a great class for mixing melee and magic; so is Bard, under the right circumstances. All allow familiars.

What I'd actually consider for you, though, if you want a class that allows the Scythe as a trained weapon while still allowing a powerful creature companion, is Shaman. It allows your "familiar", I.E. Spirit Companion (Dracoliches are dead anyways!), to have a very active role in combat, gives you some interesting spells, and makes the multiclass into Druid far easier than if you were a Wizard, especially since they share an implement for casting and their powers generally rely on the same Attributes. I'd suggest Bird or Cat build, but go through the motions once more and simply say it's a skeletal looking Dragon instead. There might be some heavy reflavoring involved, but I've seen a good deal worse!

Aron Times
2009-12-12, 02:37 PM
Here's Magus McTreehugger, a level 1 character that fits the closest approximation of your specifications:
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Magus McTreehugger, level 1
Human, Wizard|Druid
Hybrid Druid: Hybrid Druid Reflex
Hybrid Talent: Arcane Implement Mastery
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 16, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 8, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 12.


AC: 16 Fort: 12 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 23 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 5

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +6, Perception +8, Arcana +9, Nature +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +3, Heal +3, History +4, Insight +3, Intimidate +1, Religion +4, Stealth, Streetwise +1, Thievery, Athletics -1

FEATS
Human: Hybrid Talent
Level 1: Armor Proficiency (Leather)

POWERS
Bonus At-Will Power: Illusory Ambush
Hybrid Druid at-will 1: Pounce
Hybrid Wizard at-will 1: Thunderwave
Hybrid encounter 1: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation
Hybrid daily 1: Summon Pack Wolf

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Leather Armor, Implement, Orb, Fine Clothing
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======


Magus McTreehugger can target Fortitude, Reflex, or Will at-will. He can wildshape at-will as a minor action. He doesn't have a permanent animal companion, but he can summon animals (druid summons) and elementals (wizard summons) to fight for him.

CrazySopher
2009-12-12, 04:05 PM
O_o I just remembered Hybrid classing, came here to edit my post, and the amazing Mr. Silver has already beaten me to it completely and utterly. Well done, sir.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 01:17 PM
Thanks for all your feedback, folks! Good to see that the people on this forum are of the helpful and nice variety. I half-expected someone to say 'UR a nuub, Wizrds du bla bla bla!'.

But yes, to clarify: I only want a Dracolich familiar simply because I have a Dracolich (named Seymour) in AdventureQuest Worlds, not for any bonuses (You know, because he's undead).

We're playing 4e, but I'm getting all my info. from 3.5e sources. My character is a Changeling, and can 'shift into pretty much whoever he wants. He is, however, upset that he can't 'morph into non-humanoids.

But yeah, I only want the scythe because they're so cool! If my DM lets me, I'll make it my implement. Just one I can cut things with. And reap crops.

Oh yes, my DM sent me scans of the relevant pages from his PHB (Don't worry, I am planning to buy both PHB1 and 2 later), but they don't detail much.

AllisterH
2009-12-13, 02:26 PM
Does it have to be your familiar or can it b a companion?

If the latter, yuo could also see if you're DM is willing to go the cohort route and give you a young dragon.

hamishspence
2009-12-13, 02:37 PM
3.5: undead familiars do exist in Libris Mortis.

The "stitched flesh familiar" is an undead version of a familiar- instead of normal benefits, it grants the ability to control 4 HD more of undead than you normally could, and advances as a familiar. You need to be able to cast 3 necromancy spells to take this feat.

So, you could take Dragon familiar from Draconomicon, then Stitched Flesh Familiar from Libris Mortis, and you could have:

An undead, intelligent, dragon familiar, with standard dragon powers. It would look a bit like Frankenstein's monster.

Undead vary in decayed-ness- you could describe it as bony rather than fleshy, and as long as you don't claim DR/bludgeoning for being skeletal, I suspect the DM would be fine with it.

Shardan
2009-12-13, 02:49 PM
Take a staff and attach a scythe blade to it ;)
(aka refluff the staff as a scythe. it would work better for a wizard to have a staff as an implement as far as I know, and since he's not likely to hit things with it anyway, it doesn't matter)

The familiar, they are right. take the Arcane familiar feat and just pick one of them and call it a mini-dracolich. might turn some heads in the wrong towns.

Oh. and to make you feel better

'UR a nuub, Wizrds du bla bla bla!'

there. someone said it :D

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 04:23 PM
Does it have to be your familiar or can it b a companion?

Just any dragon I can get to follow me around. Can you get companions in 4e?


Take a staff and attach a scythe blade to it ;)
(aka refluff the staff as a scythe. it would work better for a wizard to have a staff as an implement as far as I know, and since he's not likely to hit things with it anyway, it doesn't matter)

I know, I just think they look awesome. But I've decided to take Scythe proficieny at 2nd level. My DM has an Anti-Magic Field fetish...


'UR a nuub, Wizrds du bla bla bla!'
You makes me feel sad inside... :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: There's a thought: Can clerical powers work inside an antimagic field?
(My party consists of: Sydney, the roguish Changeling Wizard - Me; Dalan, the half-elf Cleric of Pelor - Scott; and McDunmgle, the dwarven warrior - Zach.)

Night Monkey
2009-12-13, 04:28 PM
We're playing 4e, but I'm getting all my info. from 3.5e sources.

It's been said before, but allow me to reiterate: This will not work. At all. The absolute core mechanics of 3.5 and 4 eds are basically the same, but the content differs a great deal.

If you want a familiar, you may also want to invest in Arcane Power. I'm not a fan of the X Power books, but familiars are in there and only there.

I concur with the idea of refluffing a staff implement as a scythe, rather than actually building yourself as a scythe user. If a wizard is actually beating people in the face with his implement, he is doing it wrong.

The other alternative is to have a different implement (like an orb, such as in the suggested build above) and just carry a scythe around in your other hand. In one hand, you won't be able to wield it as a weapon but... like I said, that'd be doing it wrong anyway. In 4e, a Wizard cannot run out of spells. He can always carry on using his at-will powers to his heart's content. There is never a situation where he absolutely has to run into combat because he has no magic power left.

Wild shaping effectively requires hybrid Druiding. Hybrid rules are currently in playtest form, and will only be released officially with PHB3, some time next year. With the Druid multiclass feat (multiclass different from hybrid) you can Wild shape, but without further feats to get Druid wild shape attacks, all this achieves is preventing you from using your Wizard spells. Or even attacking with your scythe.

I hope some of this is helpful. By the time you've done reading this thread. you'll probably be better qualified to run a 4e game than your DM appears to be.

hamishspence
2009-12-13, 04:29 PM
Does 4E even have antimagic fields?

Even the Hive Mother Beholder in MM2 only has the ability to destroy conjured zones.

Night Monkey
2009-12-13, 04:29 PM
My DM has an Anti-Magic Field fetish...

There are anti-magic fields in 4e?

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 04:45 PM
It's been said before, but allow me to reiterate: This will not work. At all. The absolute core mechanics of 3.5 and 4 eds are basically the same, but the content differs a great deal.

I know... That's the problem. What I've had to do so far is build a 3.5e character, and make necessary patches up to 4e over time.

Ah yes, Arcane Power. I was thinking about getting that, but I'll get the PHBs first :smallbiggrin:.

I don't know if there are or there aren't. In any case, I... Um, Sydney, likes stabbing people.

Also, I know I can't run out of spells, but I feel so useless without a melee weapon. I know I could get a quarterstaff or dagger, but scythes are so much cooler.

EDIT: I didn't know there weren't antimagic fields in 4e.

Even if they aren't, my DM will come up with something that blocks magic.

AllisterH
2009-12-13, 04:46 PM
Just any dragon I can get to follow me around. Can you get companions in 4e?



Sure, but it does require the DM be willing to help build said companion.

The main difference between a familiar and a companion is that a familiar is totally under your control whereas the companion since it's partly shaped by the DM might have a different personality than what you envisioned.

Reluctance
2009-12-13, 05:14 PM
Here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/TryDnD.aspx)'s a link to a starter adventure with basic quick-start rules. Here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/tool/characterbuilder)'s a link to the character builder, which while it's limited for nonmembers, will still allow you to toy around with a few build options and see more of how the system goes. At least poke around to see just how different 4e and 3e are. (E.G: All wizard "spells" are combat blow-things-up style stuff. The out of combat applications of magic are rituals that everybody can learn if they spend a feat, although how useful rituals are is a matter of debate.)

If you want a magic wielding character who carries a scythe and is followed around by a skeletal-looking dragon, that's not a problem. Would you rather one who did battlefield control and debuffs, one who was actually competent in melee and worked at defending his friends, or one who dropped high-damage nukings on the other side? "Wizard" is now a specific role rather than the catch-all magic user guy, so I'm going to have to repeat everybody here; it's a very different game, you're going to need to completely retool your expectations.

So yeah. Stepping back to the drawing board. Since this is one of the big differences in philosophy between 3 and 4, step away from asking what your character looks like, and tell us what you see him doing in a given encounter.

tcrudisi
2009-12-13, 05:23 PM
I don't know if there are or there aren't. In any case, I... Um, Sydney, likes stabbing people.

Also, I know I can't run out of spells, but I feel so useless without a melee weapon. I know I could get a quarterstaff or dagger, but scythes are so much cooler.

EDIT: I didn't know there weren't antimagic fields in 4e.

Even if they aren't, my DM will come up with something that blocks magic.

First, seriously consider a Swordmage. It's the perfect mix of Fighter and Wizard. You can use a Scythe to cast your spells through and occasionally you can cut people up with the Scythe. It really is the perfect blend.

For wildshape, multiclass Druid. I would also consider multiclassing Wizard for some of their awesome utilities or dailies. So basically, if you have the character builder, this means taking the Windrise Ports background. (Note: The only reason I'm not suggesting using the hybrid rules are because they are not officially out yet. I can't bring myself to suggest going a route that's still in playtest mode.)

As for the second thing: Sure, your DM can block magic. However, and this is the funny part, let's take a look at an example power from the Swordmage: you swing your Scythe, cutting them up for decent damage and inflicting a wound upon them where they find it very, very difficult to move. This is "Arcane". So if your DM put the party in an "anti-magic zone", then he would effectively completely take out any Wizards, Sorcerers, Swordmages, Bards, or Warlocks and make them useless. If he understands the system, he would realize that there are other ways to make it more difficult on arcane classes. For example, I once fought a monster that had a decent bonus to hit (+2 or +3), damage (almost doubled!), and defenses (about +2 or +3 again) against arcane effects. However, it wasn't impossible to fight it. The monster did change how we had to go about it fighting it, but this is the exception, not the rule. I've been playing since 4e came out and only seen one of these monsters and it showed up in a module that was designed to give great rewards for the arcane people at the end. Make the people who are going to get the rewards work harder? What a novel idea!

4e isn't known for taking whole classes out of the game. Anti-magic zones do not exist for a reason, as magic doesn't exist in the same fashion. Otherwise, what do you count as magic? There's a balance in 4e that already exists. Causing 5 classes to sit in the sidelines unable to do anything is not necessary in 4e. You expect everyone to contribute equally because the game was designed with that in mind. A wizard is (basically) equal in power to a rogue which is (basically) equal in power to a fighter, and so forth.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 05:30 PM
So yeah. Stepping back to the drawing board. Since this is one of the big differences in philosophy between 3 and 4, step away from asking what your character looks like, and tell us what you see him doing in a given encounter.

I've already used the Character Builder, so... thanks anyway.

Um... In a given encounter, he'd be slicing up low-level enemies with the scythe, while casting buffs on his allies and debuffs/damaging spells on the higher-level opponents (That the rest of the party are fighting).

Also, I want to use my scythe as an implement. If the scythe itself is the implement, rather than carrying it around uselessly while also carrying an orb, then I can use it as a melee weapon too, if I choose.

When did I ask what he looks like?

And yes, I am now considering swordmage.

And, as I've already said, I hate feeling so useless, without a decent melee weapon, no matter how much awesome arcane powers I have.

EDIT: I'd prefer some sort of 'roguemage', but whatever.

Thajocoth
2009-12-13, 06:02 PM
I find your questions to be vague. I mean, each individual question is answerable easily, but the sum of your questions... I have no idea what you're trying to do. Can you provide information on what kind of character you want to be playing? What aspects of that character are the most important?

Also, if your DM is using things to completely block magic, then he's making all the arcane classes worthless to use. That's why nothing like that exists in 4e. All classes, whether Arcane, Martial, Psionic, Shadow, Primal, Divine, ect..., are equally as good as one another at any level with no adjustments, while still being sufficiently unique and specialized. That's one of the major advantages of 4e: Good balance.

The best I can gather is you want a character that casts spells, but is good in melee and possibly sneaky? (You had said the word "roguemage", so I'm trying to guess from that.) A good idea might be the Assassin class, which is somebody who uses the magic of shadows to harm their foes and get around. Then multiclass any arcane class with a feat (as Assassin is a Shadow class, not an Arcane one), so you can take familiar feats. Then take a Dragonling familiar.

That is... If you still want a familiar after understanding how they work. Familiars do not attack. They provide a passive bonus at all times and an active bonus when you have them out, and they are always Tiny in size. The Dragonling specifically provides the following benefits: You know Draconic. Whenever you spend a healing surge, you regain an additional 2 hit points. Active benefit: Once per encounter, you can cast an arcane close blast power through your Dragonling's space (so if you multiclassed Wizard, and took the Thunderwave at-will power as your 1/encounter power, you could cast it through the Dragonling. Though, Assassin's don't use Int as their main stat, so you'd have a hard time hitting with it).

If you want to play a Wizard with a scythe, don't bother taking a feat for the +2 proficiency bonus. You shouldn't really be using your weapon as a Wizard, and anyone can wield any weapon, you just don't get the proficiency bonus to hit with it unless you're proficient. Even WITH the bonus, your Str score is your most likely dump stat. It's the only stat that no Wizard builds need. So even with the bonus, you're not going to hit with it, so the bonus is not worth your feat.

The Scythe is not a great weapon, but for the Assassin, it doesn't always matter what weapon you have (depending on how you build them), as there are lots of Assassin powers that ignore the weapon's damage dice, dealing a specific amount of damage, using only the weapon's enhancement bonus (as an implement) (or the enhancement bonus of a Ki Focus instead, if you have one).

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 06:36 PM
I understand how familiars work. Entirely.

Also, I basically want to be able to be all wizard-y, but have at least a chance at getting to stab people.

There's an Assassin class?

And, what do you mean, 'The sum of my questions'? They're seperate questions, they aren't supposed to have a sum... :smallbiggrin:

The reason my DM likes blocking arcane/divine is this: 2/3 of my 3-man party are non-martial, leaving the Fighter (McDumgle) to fend for himself, and thus, we all die. (He cleared at the start that he'd attempt to kill us all a couple of times.). Here's an example we thought up:

DM: You peer through the door, and are met by impenetrable darkness. A faint throbbing courses from the dark room, and through you.
Me: Arbitrary Light Spell!
Dalan: Arbitrary Pelor's Light, or something!
McDumgle: Um... Sunrod!
DM: Your spells and magical items are non-functional. The cavern remains black.
Me&McDumgle: Darkvision!
Dalan: Aww...
DM: You notice the room is filled with hobgoblins. They're arbitrarily dangerous.
Party: Um, should we run?
DM: The way you came in is now blocked, for absolutely some reason.
Party: Oh... crap.

As you can see, McDumgle is basically alone in combat against the hobgoblins. Sydney and Dalan, their powers useless, die quickly, and McDumgle fights to the end. He dies. Campaign OVER.

EDIT: Btw, your avatar is awesome looking.

EDIT2: If I became Martial, then he'd figure out ways to single out Dalan, and getting him killed. He's evil like that.

Thajocoth
2009-12-13, 07:04 PM
"Also, I basically want to be able to be all wizard-y, but have at least a chance at getting to stab people."

Well, there IS the melee training feat... It'd let you use Int instead of Str for melee basic attacks... I've always seen it as worthless, but in your campaign, it might not be a bad idea. Though, I'd recommend a staff in your case. Quarterstaff - Wizards are proficient and can use it as an implement, +2 prof bonus, 1d8 damage. Additionally, the Staff of Defense class feature gives you +1 AC, uses Con as a secondary stat (so more HP and surges), and an encounter power that adds to your defenses as an interrupt against an attack. Also, you can take a feat to turn the Quarterstaff into a double-weapon that's Defensive (+1 AC), and then you qualify for the Two-Weapon feats, since your weapon counts as 2. Two Weapon Defense = +1 AC & Ref. Then, perhaps, you can survive melee combat when necessary.

Though, I can certainly see the appeal of wielding a Scythe...

"There's an Assassin class?"

Yeah. Right now it's only in Dragon Mag and the Char Builder.

"The reason my DM likes blocking arcane/divine is this: 2/3 of my 3-man party are non-martial, leaving the Fighter (McDumgle) to fend for himself, and thus, we all die. (He cleared at the start that he'd attempt to kill us all a couple of times.). Here's an example we thought up:

DM: You peer through the door, and are met by impenetrable darkness. A faint throbbing courses from the dark room, and through you.
Me: Arbitrary Light Spell!
Dalan: Arbitrary Pelor's Light, or something!
McDumgle: Um... Sunrod!
DM: Your spells and magical items are non-functional. The cavern remains black.
Me&McDumgle: Darkvision!
Dalan: Aww...
DM: You notice the room is filled with hobgoblins. They're arbitrarily dangerous.
Party: Um, should we run?
DM: The way you came in is now blocked, for absolutely some reason.
Party: Oh... crap.

As you can see, McDumgle is basically alone in combat against the hobgoblins. Sydney and Dalan, their powers useless, die quickly, and McDumgle fights to the end. He dies. Campaign OVER."

That's... Frustrating, at best.

"EDIT: Btw, your avatar is awesome looking."

Thanks! It's the first time I've used Inkscape.

"EDIT2: If I became Martial, then he'd figure out ways to single out Dalan, and getting him killed. He's evil like that."

Well, if that's the case... On the plus side, Wizards are Controllers. Controllers are the ones who ruin all the DMs plans.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 07:12 PM
Though, I can certainly see the appeal of wielding a Scythe...
Thank you!

"There's an Assassin class?"

Yeah. Right now it's only in Dragon Mag and the Char Builder.
Will it be in the Dragon Mag. yearly compilation thing?

That's... Frustrating, at best.
Very.

Thanks! It's the first time I've used Inkscape.
Is it good for this kind of thing? As you can see, my MSPaint-born avatar is not so pretty...

"EDIT2: If I became Martial, then he'd figure out ways to single out Dalan, and getting him killed. He's evil like that."

Well, if that's the case... On the plus side, Wizards are Controllers. Controllers are the ones who ruin all the DMs plans.
Whatchu mean? By 'If I became Martial' I meant 'If I made a martial-classed character'
We decided to spread our team, so we could get a bigger variety of abilites, and also be able to resist the DM's attempts at playatricide. I mean, I was going to be a Rogue, but...

Well, I suppose it's good that Dalan is multiclassing to Bard, then?


Arbitrary text.

Thajocoth
2009-12-13, 07:27 PM
There are 4 basic "Party Roles". No one's supposed to do everything.

Defenders keep enemies focused on them and off of the squishier players.
Classes: Fighter, Swordmage, Paladin, Warden

Leaders give the party advantages (and health).
Classes: Warlord, Bard, Artificer, Cleric, Shaman

Strikers deal massive damage.
Classes: Rogue, Ranger, Sorcerer, Warlock, Avenger, Barbarian, Monk, Assassin

Controllers rearrange the battle, cast wide damage and give the enemies disadvantages.
Classes: Wizard, Invoker, Druid, Seeker, Psion

Here's a recent thread all about the effect that Controllers have that might help give you an idea what exactly it is they do:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133832

-----

For avatars, I recommend one of these two threads:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122056
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111767

The first is to request that somebody else make you an avatar, while the second is instructions for making your own in Inkscape. The Inkscape tutorial helped me out a lot.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-13, 07:38 PM
Thanks. I'm not trying to do everything, but if my arcane abilities fail me, I need a backup. If, say, our Martial abilities were hampered somehow, then me and Dalan could still pwn, whereas McDumgle is useless. If Clerical powers fail, then Dalan is down, and me and McDumgle still have a chance of saving the party. However, we noticed the weakpoint in our defense against the DM: That scenario. Either me or Dalan needs to be at least useful without our primary abilities. We also need a bard, and he's a cleric anyway (He doesn't like killing himself, only when Pelor blesses it, and he's not allowed sharp weapons.). He wanted to be the bard, I wanted to stab people... and here we are.

Our DM kinda reminds me of the AI Director from L4D...

Thajocoth
2009-12-13, 07:47 PM
Not allowed sharp weapons? How many houserules did he add to specifically hurt the party?

Perhaps instead of playing a Wizard, you should play a DM...

Night Monkey
2009-12-13, 07:48 PM
So, you have said that your DM doesn't know the rules too well, and likes to kill the party for the lols.

I'm saying nothing.

Asbestos
2009-12-13, 08:50 PM
"There's an Assassin class?"

Yeah. Right now it's only in Dragon Mag and the Char Builder.
Will it be in the Dragon Mag. yearly compilation thing?
Likely not. It and the Revenant PC race are supposedly DDI exclusive and will not be reprinted in any book. Though, I do wonder how wise a decision this is on WotC's part. While everyone that wants to play an assassin might not sign up for DDI, I bet plenty of them would buy a book.

Inyssius Tor
2009-12-13, 09:42 PM
So... your DM arbitrarily depowers your entire party according to his whims (which you hate), except for one guy. Killing the entire party repeatedly. And he does this a lot.

Tell your DM he's being a stupid douchenozzle, and get a new one. Christ, no wonder you think you'd prefer a different rule set. Unfortunately, friend, t's not the system, friend, it's the power-mad idiot who's using it. There are no rules-based ways to pull that ridiculous nonsense in 4e, and in fact the Dungeon Master's Guide strongly recommends against doing anything like it.

It's not hard to run an enjoyable game, especially with 4e. I've seen eight-year-olds run far better. You could do it.

Asbestos
2009-12-13, 10:03 PM
and he's a cleric anyway (He doesn't like killing himself, only when Pelor blesses it...

The Burning Hate always approves of killing.

Edit: Ye Olde rule that clerics can only use blunt weapons is ridiculous to me. You can always decide when you're doing lethal or subdual damage no matter what you've got at hand, so why the hell is it more 'holy' to beat someone's brains in with a lead pipe than to stab them with a sword? Maybe clerics approve of breaking bones and causing organ ruptures than slitting throats.

Rockphed
2009-12-13, 11:20 PM
The Burning Hate always approves of killing.

Edit: Ye Olde rule that clerics can only use blunt weapons is ridiculous to me. You can always decide when you're doing lethal or subdual damage no matter what you've got at hand, so why the hell is it more 'holy' to beat someone's brains in with a lead pipe than to stab them with a sword? Maybe clerics approve of breaking bones and causing organ ruptures than slitting throats.

The bible is, conveniently, rather more fuzzy on the subject of kneecaps.

Mando Knight
2009-12-13, 11:27 PM
This is especially odd... considering that Corellon and Bahamut at least are shown to prefer heavy blades in 4e.

FrozenOcean
2009-12-14, 06:54 PM
My DM didn't make up that rule... My Cleric did.

He played 2e, so maybe it's from there? (I read the whole Cleric section in the PHB... it said nothing of the sort.).

But no, my DM hasn't made any houserules*, yet. And he doesn't try to kill us 'for kicks', he told us at the beginning that he'll attempt to kill us all several times, and we'll need teamwork.

I think all he needs is a bit of instruction...

*Not knowingly, anyway.

EDIT: Inyssius, he doesn't do it a lot, we're worried that he will do it further down the line. Other that that, he's a decent DM.

EDIT2: We know he likes depowering one of us, but we've got strategies against that, and it always works out with at least 0 hitpoints (On the depowered person) and extra XP. At the very least, he knows to up the loot and XP with the difficulty.

EDIT3: What I meant by 'doesn't like killing himself, only when Pelor blesses it' was that Dalan (The character) is only really okay with killing if it's his divine powers that do the killing, as in his mind, this means Pelor agrees with the kill. He has objections to using his melee weapons. Although, he'll be happy that he can use sharp/bladed weapons now (He really wanted a katana).