How does arcane magic work? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Bibliomancer

2009-12-12, 01:04 PM

The universe is filled with magic, which at its most basic, would be defined at "Anything that would give a physicist a headache."*

Magic is leftover spontaneous unstable potential, or at least that's how I interpret it. Its the leftover energy of creation that can be gathered a talented and trained person. Sorcerers gather it from force of will, calling the magic to them like a herdsman calls his dogs, even if the dogs could rip him to pieces in moments. Wizards create elaborate mental structures within the mazes of their own minds, traps which funnel magic like a roof collects rainwater for a barrel**, stored and ready to be used over the course of a day.

There are daily limits because wizards can only hold so much 'water' in their reservoir at one time, and must have it pre-stored in various stored or it would take minutes to cast a spell, and the magic runs back in during the night. Sorcerers grow weary and the magic becomes more rebellious the roe it is used, and so a solid night's rest is required to restore confidence.

And as for bards...well, somewhat like sorcerers, except with more humming involved. [In Eberron they tap the primal music of creation used by Siberys, Khyber, and Eberron to sing the universe into being.]

*Excluding undergraduate students and much of 'real life.'

**Except even an apprentice wizard would laugh at the simplicity of a dam compared to the construction of a cantrip.

Note, except for the first two lines, all the rest is simply my view on it, based on a few sparse facts presented in random supplements and my own views on the matter.

I'd have to go with collective insanity shaping reality or alien/deity with a wicked sense of humour trying to find out just how wacky a ritual a mage will go along with to cast a spell.

Eating a live spider to cast a spell???? Really???

This is explained in the Complete Arcane. Until recently, material components were thought to be 'keys' unlocking the power of the universe. However, recent in-game research indicates that they are actually locks, lessening the power of the spell to prevent the caster from being burnt out by the power coursing through them. This also explains why divine spells need no complex somatic and material components, because their gods filter the magic for them. Thus, eating a live spider to cast a spell distracts the caster*** enough that the spell it altered, lessened, and controlled. Think about it. Wouldn't you lose a bit of the power stored in your brain if you had to do the macarena before releasing that energy in a gout of fire? Without that energy seepage, your brain would get fried, hypothetically.

***Or makes reality bend over double laughing, depending on your point of view.

jmbrown

2009-12-12, 01:14 PM

I'd have to go with collective insanity shaping reality or alien/deity with a wicked sense of humour trying to find out just how wacky a ritual a mage will go along with to cast a spell.

Eating a live spider to cast a spell???? Really???

Try mixing a gem with wine then drinking it. In AD&D identify reduced your constitution by 8 points (never below 1) and you were so 'effing sick from drinking ROCK WINE that you couldn't do anything for 24 hours.

When Gygax wrote the books (so basically Greyhawk setting), he often explained that magic are precise runes and writings that carry reality-altering power. Wizards are completely powerless but unlike other classes they can imprint the magic-carrying-words-of-power into their brains and draw upon them. This is why when you cast a spell it instantly erases itself from your memory or the runes disappear from the scroll. Discworld had a similar magic system and IIRC some spells had limited sentience in a wizard's mind like Rincewind memorizing that forbidden spell.

Magic items have the words-of-power permanently inscribed into them or in the case of items with charges they vanish when all the magic runs out. Spell-like and spontaneous casting are inherent powers where the words-of-power are permanently inscribed into the caster's body.

oxybe

2009-12-12, 01:15 PM

PinkysBrain

2009-12-12, 01:17 PM

It's not material components perse I have a problem with ... it's the specific nature and often wackyness of them.

Once again, eating a life spider to cast a spell???? Really???

erikun

2009-12-12, 01:33 PM

magic works because it's magic. some settings will have it's own history and this will vary from setting to setting. others will just... well, i'll just let TV tropes explain (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppliedPhlebotinum?from=Main.Phlebotinum).
Curse you, it's drawing me in

Curse youuuuuuuuu!!!

Moriato

2009-12-12, 01:37 PM

It's not material components perse I have a problem with ... it's the specific nature and often wackyness of them.

Once again, eating a life spider to cast a spell???? Really???

Why not? That's classic "sympathetic" magic. You want to be like a spider (by casting spider climb) so you eat one. Now that spider is a part of you, and you gain this power it had. Ideas like that have been around since humans first gathered into tribes. Actually probably even before that.

Asheram

2009-12-12, 01:38 PM

It's not material components perse I have a problem with ... it's the specific nature and often wackyness of them.

Once again, eating a life spider to cast a spell???? Really???

It's a mental focus. You're making yourself... Extremely aware of the spider.
Sure, I could agree with eating a spider is a bit extreme, but it works. *shrugs*

Bibliomancer

2009-12-12, 01:53 PM

As explained in the Complete Arcane, material components limit the power of the spell to make it safe for the caster. Thus, the weirder they are, the better they are at distracting the caster and letting the magic disperse safely.

Yzzyx

2009-12-12, 01:58 PM

Knowing how arcane magic works is what wizards do. If you have above average intelligence, find a wizard, convice him to teach you, and spend years as his apprentice, you will have some, but not complete, knowledge of how arcane magic works. (If you find a wizard, tell me where he lives! I want to know how arcane magic works too! What's the minor risk of being disintigrated, or mind controled to do his laundry?)

oxybe

2009-12-12, 02:00 PM

Bibliomancer

2009-12-12, 02:03 PM

note that this is also the game that has violently exploding bat poop(fireball), drinking wine and expensive crushed jewlery makes you more sensitive to magical auras (identify), a handful of clay to stupify the mind (feeblemind) and eagle poop to make yourself prettier (eagle's splendor).

to quote MST3K: "It's just a show game, I should really just relax."

Again, all those components are absurd by design. They reduce the power of the spell to prevent the wizard from getting blown up, having their corneas burnt away, losing their own mind in the process, or generating a cult which tears them apart to get souvenirs.

Dixieboy

2009-12-12, 02:06 PM

I kinda like the idea that magic is left unexplained as far as possible, it IS afterall supposed to be "Arcane".

Morty

2009-12-12, 02:08 PM

oxybe

2009-12-12, 02:10 PM

Again, all those components are absurd by design. They reduce the power of the spell to prevent the wizard from getting blown up, having their corneas burnt away, losing their own mind in the process, or generating a cult which tears them apart to get souvenirs.

but how does that work with Eschew Materials who's point is that you don't require those weird regeants?

plus who says all magic in all D&D worlds work that way?

IMO, the best way is to give your character a thematic rationalization (if any) and stick to it so there is some internal consistency to your character.

Mr.Bookworm

2009-12-12, 03:23 PM

I've always favored the explanation (in standard D&D, at least) that magic components are symbolic. The human (or orc or dragon or whatever) mind provides the necessary mental power and structure to cast spells, but for whatever reason, having a symbol of some sort is necessary to focus the spell.

With that explanation, all of this

exploding bat poop(fireball), drinking wine and expensive crushed jewlery makes you more sensitive to magical auras (identify), a handful of clay to stupify the mind (feeblemind) and eagle poop to make yourself prettier (eagle's splendor).

makes a bit more sense.

Bat guano, if you're curious, is a highly effective gunpowder ingredient due to it's high levels of phosphorous and nitrogen (also, it doesn't smell that bad). How D&D world found this out is another story, but still.

boomwolf

2009-12-12, 03:42 PM

Common sources of arcane magic I have encountered in games/ran in games.

1-Its science, the different rules of physics make it so specific action draw another type of energy our world does not have (aka "magic") to do some odd stuff. anybody can learn it (wizards), some got a natural knack in it (sorcerers)

2-A god programmed it into the world in order to free mortals from the need of the divine.

3-"The weave" thingy

4-Nobody got a clue, they did try, but nobody ever figured it out.

4B-Nobody got a clue, anyone who ever researched it apparently committed suicide at one point or another. probably right after finding out.

5-Internal power of the mind, the symbols and words only help you concentrate, and became believed to be necessary at some point.

6-Its actually divine magic given by a god in hiding, hiding it from mortals that he gains power when they use "his" magic, effectively praying to him.

7-It really IS demons.

8-Spells existent and roam the world in a unique form of etenralisem, you are jest doing a little ritual to attract them to you, then force them to manifest.

hiryuu

2009-12-12, 04:10 PM

I kinda like the idea that magic is left unexplained as far as possible, it IS afterall supposed to be "Arcane".

I'll go with this. In fact, I'll even go with the idea that "magic" works this way in real life.

Ask any physicist to describe his work to a layman. I guarantee within five minutes or less he'll have confused the holy poo out of the layman, or at least, gotten a glassy-eyed stare, after which a declaration by said physicist that "I am a wizard" will be met with an understanding smile, nod, and acceptance of what he says. My roommate is a physicist, I am a speculative biologist, and one of the guys in our group is a laser technician, and we all get this reaction all the time.

Seriously. A wizard is no different than a physicist. He is using the physical laws of his or her world as they are understood (and which work differently than ours, of course), to achieve interesting, fantastic, and fun-filled effects. He knows how it works, and he can even make it do crazy things, and people will even reap the fruits of his labor and research (magic items and new spell effects), but still won't believe half of what he says and even protest his accomplishments (Imagine plant growth protestors outside a farm with signs that say "NO MORE CORNFORGED!").

Now that it has been said, your next wizard in D&D will be Bill Nye the Magic Guy and take great joy in explaining how fireball works.

Moriato

2009-12-12, 04:22 PM

Now that it has been said, your next wizard in D&D will be Bill Nye the Magic Guy and take great joy in explaining how fireball works.

Don't forget to use the law of conservation of energy to explain why you need to exchange bat guano with the elemental plane of fire to get the fire needed for the spell. I wonder if more powerful fireballs needs more bat crap, or if it's an efficiency thing?

DabblerWizard

2009-12-12, 04:22 PM

1-Its science, the different rules of physics make it so specific action draw another type of energy our world does not have (aka "magic") to do some odd stuff. anybody can learn it (wizards), some got a natural knack in it (sorcerers)

5-Internal power of the mind, the symbols and words only help you concentrate, and became believed to be necessary at some point.

8-Spells existent and roam the world in a unique form of etenralisem, you are jest doing a little ritual to attract them to you, then force them to manifest.

The above quoted lines are the kinds of things I would refer to if any of my players' characters pondered the origins of magic... It would sound something like the following:

Magic is a naturally occurring phenomenon. Like photons of light, magic lacks an atomic structure, and is pure energy that can be harnessed by particular minds. (This makes it sound like the "Force" and that's not such a bad thing). People can either intuit the rules that govern magic, (as a sorcerer or a psion), or can sometimes learn them through a great deal of study (as a wizard, artificer... etc). In either case, one has to know this energy to be able to harness it. The more familiar one is with magic, and the greater their mental faculties, the more they can control this force. Words and gestures serve to channel one's mind, but aren't themselves the source of the magic itself.

I think it's appropriate that the above explanation seems a bit mystical and opaque. The "average" mind isn't meant to understand what magic is. Otherwise, everyone could become a practitioner, and even high magic games need to limit their spell casters, or utter chaos would ensue.

ScIaDrd

2009-12-12, 06:15 PM

In my game i consider mana to be the byproduct of thinking. Any thought, no matter how simple and insignificant creates a proportionate amount of this raw primal energy, the stuff of magic. The longer deeper and harder you think the more mana you create fo yourself and then you shape it with your will and thamaturgical ivocations, material components and all that stuff, also obebys the laws of thermodynamics whenever it is convinienet to do so. This justifies the fact that my magic users get anime styled battle aures when casting spells. the foused magic leaves their body whre it can nove instanneously. and moves into the physical world that slows it down, creating magical Cherenkov radiation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherenkov_radiation) which is coloured according to the energy type of the spell.
Gods being omnipotent and omniscent act as giant mana powerplants, that can suply a really huge mamount of mana to nearly any number of casters, hence my high magic world. But if you start to focus more mana than you can handle as by your level and skill, nasty thing start to happen. Like it burns you up, drives you crazy, tears the fabric of reality and lets the scary things from the other side in.:smallbiggrin:
And oh yeah sorcerers have natural talent, because they are the descendants of extremly smart and/or inherently magical things such as deities and dragons.
So? any coments? thoughts? problems?
PS It explains how Archivists work. Woo

Aron Times

2009-12-12, 06:27 PM

The three main summoning classes in 4e are the wizard (arcane), the invoker (divine), and the druid (primal). The wizard summons elementals, the invoker summons angels, and the druid summons animals. Going by what each power source summons, I'm guessing arcane magic is basically elemental magic, at least in 4e.

Gamerlord

2009-12-12, 06:33 PM

In my main campaign world( 3.5 and 4e, but its the same world), magic is cast by drawing upon the elemental power of the respective elemental plains of each edition, and then shaping it into the spell of choice.

Doc Roc

2009-12-12, 06:34 PM

The entire point of magic is that it bends to a woman's will incomprehensible forces.

In that sentence, there is a word:
Incomprehensible (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/2/).

Bibliomancer

2009-12-12, 06:58 PM

but how does that work with Eschew Materials who's point is that you don't require those weird regeants?

In the process of taking the feat, you develop a sense of humor

I've always favored the explanation (in standard D&D, at least) that magic components are symbolic. The human (or orc or dragon or whatever) mind provides the necessary mental power and structure to cast spells, but for whatever reason, having a symbol of some sort is necessary to focus the spell.

In some ways, yes. In the Complete Arcane, reagents are locks for a specific spell, so to disperse the energy you'd need to start with something that had a similar form.

shadow_archmagi

2009-12-12, 07:02 PM

It happens magically, and works through magic.

oxybe

2009-12-12, 07:05 PM

In the process of taking the feat, you develop a sense of humor

man, that sucks. i need a feat to develop a sense of humor? LAAAAAAAAAME :smalltongue:

Optimystik

2009-12-12, 08:00 PM

Seriously. A wizard is no different than a physicist. He is using the physical laws of his or her world as they are understood (and which work differently than ours, of course), to achieve interesting, fantastic, and fun-filled effects. He knows how it works, and he can even make it do crazy things, and people will even reap the fruits of his labor and research (magic items and new spell effects), but still won't believe half of what he says and even protest his accomplishments (Imagine plant growth protestors outside a farm with signs that say "NO MORE CORNFORGED!").

This explanation ignores the most fundamental difference between magic and science:

With science, as long as you follow the same steps as someone else under the same conditions, you can achieve the same results.

But with magic, even if a fighter makes the same gestures, says the same words and has the same components in his belt pouch, nothing will happen. Or even if both performers are wizards, have one be an evoker and the other have barred evocation, and the fact that they are both wizards means nothing when one tries to duplicate the other's work.

I may not be a physicist, but if one gives me an instruction manual on how to turn on the LHC, I can probably do it. This is not true for arcane magic.

hiryuu

2009-12-12, 09:14 PM

This explanation ignores the most fundamental difference between magic and science:

With science, as long as you follow the same steps as someone else under the same conditions, you can achieve the same results.

But with magic, even if a fighter makes the same gestures, says the same words and has the same components in his belt pouch, nothing will happen. Or even if both performers are wizards, have one be an evoker and the other have barred evocation, and the fact that they are both wizards means nothing when one tries to duplicate the other's work.

I may not be a physicist, but if one gives me an instruction manual on how to turn on the LHC, I can probably do it. This is not true for arcane magic.

Actually, science is more dependent on correlated, repeated observations that repeating the experiment, since your data will almost always be different depending on differing experimental environments (hell, that's what a control is!). So the fighter can't do it? Very well, we've just established a fact of how magic works, congratulations, you've just furthered the cause of science and dictated who we will now use as our control from now on.

Here, in our world, if two people try the same thing with the same methods and the same materials, the same thing will happen. In the D&D universe, it doesn't work that way because their physics aren't the same. We can still use the scientific method to describe things because that's all science is. Just because their physics are different and will have different laws doesn't mean they won't have laws, it just means they're DIFFERENT LAWS. Magic is the physical model, science is the method by which you determine the rules of the model. Mages. Are. Scientists.

jseah

2009-12-12, 09:40 PM

I built a general magic system that could mimic any other system, including D&D.

Specifically,
- Arbitrary physical patterns are recognized by the universe as a specific command. Ranges, values, information can all be transferred both ways.
- Commands simply work. Exert X force here, rearrange that, blah blah. Whatever those commands are, they happen. The universe rearranges it's information to comply.
- These include the ability to change the way the commands are inputted. ie. it can change it's own rules.

Given that these "commands to the universe" operates outside of the universal operation, these commands have effectively infinite processing power with respects to the universe.
With infinite processing power comes the ability to do literally anything.

Then, from this framework that can do anything, you simply cut it down to size.
Bat guano and vocal elements are part of the pattern needed. Metamagic feats change the style of command. Supernatural effects are self-sustaining magical commands.
Or maybe there's a mana particle. Simply declare a new particle instance, define it's properties, and poof!

X leads to Y is part of the universe, the X being telling the universe to do Y. The wizard is literally telling the laws of physics to shut up, sit down and beg for a cookie.

Optimystik

2009-12-12, 10:05 PM

Actually, science is more dependent on correlated, repeated observations that repeating the experiment, since your data will almost always be different depending on differing experimental environments (hell, that's what a control is!). So the fighter can't do it? Very well, we've just established a fact of how magic works, congratulations, you've just furthered the cause of science and dictated who we will now use as our control from now on.

The fact that the fighter can't do magic - or that a wizard with a barred school can't do ANYTHING related to that school, no matter his magic ability - tells us nothing about why that is so, or how arcane magic actually works.

"Furthering the cause of science" doesn't work when there is no cause to further. Arcane magic remains inscrutable no matter how many advances are made.

Here, in our world, if two people try the same thing with the same methods and the same materials, the same thing will happen. In the D&D universe, it doesn't work that way because their physics aren't the same. We can still use the scientific method to describe things because that's all science is. Just because their physics are different and will have different laws doesn't mean they won't have laws, it just means they're DIFFERENT LAWS. Magic is the physical model, science is the method by which you determine the rules of the model.

I don't see how "their physics are different" is any less a handwave than simply admitting magic is not science.

A "law" should not vary depending on the actor - it should be a fundamental rule of the universe that applies to everyone equally. But magic does not.

Mages. Are. Scientists.

Factotums, maybe. Artificers, sure. Mages, no.

hiryuu

2009-12-12, 10:12 PM

The fact that the fighter can't do magic - or that a wizard with a barred school can't do ANYTHING related to that school, no matter his magic ability - tells us nothing about why that is so, or how arcane magic actually works.

"Furthering the cause of science" doesn't work when there is no cause to further. Arcane magic remains inscrutable no matter how many advances are made.

So no Intelligence based casters exist in your world. Gotcha.

I don't see how "their physics are different" is any less a handwave than simply admitting magic is not science.

We cannot cast magic missile in our world, no matter how much we try. It is therefore not a handwave to say that their physical model is different then ours because it clearly is so.

A "law" should not vary depending on the actor - it should be a fundamental rule of the universe that applies to everyone equally. But magic does not.

Actually, laws do vary depending on the actor here in our world (not everyone can draw with pinpoint accuracy). That is a law, no matter how you want to dress it up. By saying "magic does not do this" you have now given it a law. Congratulations! You've furthered science again!

Not only that, it works for anyone who's been trained the same way, by, say, taking a level of wizard. That's no different than going to, say, ITT and learning how to build a laser, since the wizard class represents specialized training in that process. So, in effect, yes, any schmuck can train to cast spells. If his Int score isn't high enough, that's representative of the percentage of the population who still can't put a radio together after three years of classes.

I'll say it again: Science is a system of description and tests, not a system of physics. Anywhere there is a system of physics, even if that system operates under different rules, it still operates under a set of rules that can be defined.

Factotums, maybe. Artificers, sure. Mages, no.

I have defined why mages are scientists. Your response is to say they are not, but not provide anything to back yourself up.

Morandir Nailo

2009-12-12, 10:29 PM

For me, magic works like this (http://jrients.blogspot.com/2008/06/just-so-you-know-this-is-vancian-magic.html).

Mor

Green Bean

2009-12-12, 10:36 PM

Optimystik

2009-12-12, 10:46 PM

So no Intelligence based casters exist in your world. Gotcha.

We cannot cast magic missile in our world, no matter how much we try. It is therefore not a handwave to say that their physical model is different then ours because it clearly is so.

None of those explain why ANOTHER WIZARD who has banned evocation cannot cast magic missile, despite having the training and intelligence to master much higher levels of spells. Explain that satisfactorily, and I'll cede the point.

Doc Roc

2009-12-12, 10:54 PM

None of those explain why ANOTHER WIZARD who has banned evocation cannot cast magic missile, despite having the training and intelligence to master much higher levels of spells. Explain that satisfactorily, and I'll cede the point.

I always presumed there was a backing mental discipline and a wide-ranging array of concepts that took "years of training to master" which, mind, isn't supported in the RAW all that well, though the fluff makes it clear it was intended to be canon but that some people simply cannot do math. People who ban evocation either have never gained or in some way render volatile that knowledge.

snoopy13a

2009-12-12, 10:59 PM

(If you find a wizard, tell me where he lives! I want to know how arcane magic works too! What's the minor risk of being disintigrated, or mind controled to do his laundry?)

Sorry, I don't have an opening for an apprentices (the proper term nowadays is graduate magical student) right now :smallsmile:

I currently have two right now and they constantly flood my office due to messing up spells. You would think they'd have watched Fantasia. Magical grad students today just don't have the work ethic.

However, I am applying for a ZJ704 Magical Grant from the Federal Government (bet you didn't know they gave grants for magic, did ya?). If approved, I will have opening for an assistant wizard (tenure-track position) and two magical grad students.

Successful applicants for the Assistant Wizard position will possess:
-Ability to cast level three spells
-Good alignment (evil wizards are headaches)
-Advanced Wizard Degree
-Two letters of recommendation from Master Wizards
-Publications in major wizardry research journals
-A portfolio of your spellwork

Those looking to enter the magic field as grad student need:
-An intelligence of at least 16
-Good alignment (evil grad students are even worse)
-Bachelor's Degree
-Two letters of recommendation
-Proficiency in Microsoft Word, Excel, and Powerpoint
-Scores from a GRE examination

Please send your CV along with a cover letter to:

Imma Wizard
Master Wizard and Chairman- Dept. of Evocation
American University of Magic
1234 Merlin Avenue
Washington, DC

jmbrown

2009-12-12, 11:00 PM

None of those explain why ANOTHER WIZARD who has banned evocation cannot cast magic missile, despite having the training and intelligence to master much higher levels of spells. Explain that satisfactorily, and I'll cede the point.

Because magic naturally opposes each other and by specializing you're forgoing the ability to learn a spell in exchange for greater power in another.

3E made magic a precise, inscrutable power to tap but in AD&D magic had unpredictable side effects and you were encouraged to research your own spells. You even got experience for doing it.

Ravens_cry

2009-12-12, 11:01 PM

None of those explain why ANOTHER WIZARD who has banned evocation cannot cast magic missile, despite having the training and intelligence to master much higher levels of spells. Explain that satisfactorily, and I'll cede the point.
That's the key. Their training. Sure, wizards are intelligent. They are the nerds of the magic world, and achieve their feats of featdom by long and torturous study and practice. But just as a champion swimmer has a HARDER time swimming in syrup then water then an average fit individual (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBAQtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHs4 Q5jZSJbA&rct=j&q=swimming+in+syrup&ei=h2gkS6rxIoGmsgOln_3gDg&usg=AFQjCNFq083i6iXVWoPrvkiczgT22cfv6A), a highly trained wizard in the particular technicalities of certain schools will find those of the ones they abandoned to be counter-intuitive, against their every trained instinct, and difficult to the point of impossibility.

Optimystik

2009-12-12, 11:10 PM

That's the key. Their training. Sure, wizards are intelligent. They are the nerds of the magic world, and achieve their feats of featdom by long and torturous study and practice. But just as a champion swimmer has a HARDER time swimming in syrup then water then an average fit individual (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&oi=video_result&ct=res&cd=4&ved=0CBAQtwIwAw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DHs4 Q5jZSJbA&rct=j&q=swimming+in+syrup&ei=h2gkS6rxIoGmsgOln_3gDg&usg=AFQjCNFq083i6iXVWoPrvkiczgT22cfv6A), a highly trained wizard in the particular technicalities of certain schools will find those of the ones they abandoned to be counter-intuitive, against their every trained instinct, and difficult to the point of impossibility.

But that is highly different from science, where a nuclear physicist will know at least rudimentary biology and chemistry. Any specialized scientist will know at least basic amounts of the other three.

"Difficult to the point of impossibility?" Any wizard of sufficient level can easily identify a magic item, scroll, wand or even spell of a school they have barred. My level 20 wizard who has banned evocation can still instantly recognize a wand or scroll of magic missile, knows how to do everything to activate wands of similar level or knows the language of magic to read such a scroll, and can even counter the spell if used against him, yet is inexplicably unable to activate the item in question. What does any of that have to do with science?

Because magic naturally opposes each other and by specializing you're forgoing the ability to learn a spell in exchange for greater power in another.

But why does it oppose each other? (And clearly it doesn't, else Generalists/Limited Wish etc. would be an impossibility.) There is no explanation.

Forgotten Realms at least supplied a justification - Mystra consciously limiting mortal wizardry - none of the other settings even try that much, least of all Greyhawk.

Lamech

2009-12-12, 11:28 PM

But that is highly different from science, where a nuclear physicist will know at least rudimentary biology and chemistry. Any specialized scientist will know at least basic amounts of the other three.

"Difficult to the point of impossibility?" Any wizard of sufficient level can easily identify a magic item, scroll, wand or even spell of a school they have barred. My level 20 wizard who has banned evocation can still instantly recognize a wand or scroll of magic missile, knows how to do everything to activate wands of similar level or knows the language of magic to read such a scroll, and can even counter the spell if used against him, yet is inexplicably unable to activate the item in question. What does any of that have to do with science?Wizards are storing the spells in their brain. And after a certain method of training, certain wizards have brains that have extra storage room for certain spells, but can't store other spells. Hmm... clearly it must... oh wait... god darn it! I just found another law of magic.
A machine that has been specialized to do A may have a worse time doing B. It would be no different if I altered a computer program making it better at something, and made it unable to do something else. Wizards doing something better and something worse seems normal when you look at our world.

If something has physics you can do science on it. (Unless it is attempting to confound you.) Magic has a set of physics. The people who figure it out and make new spells are scientists (after a fashion, quite possibly very bad ones.) Actually casting those spells makes you like a mechanic, not a scientist although; similar to how building a car does not make you an engineer

Ravens_cry

2009-12-12, 11:33 PM

But that is highly different from science, where a nuclear physicist will know at least rudimentary biology and chemistry. Any specialized scientist will know at least basic amounts of the other three.

"Difficult to the point of impossibility?" Any wizard of sufficient level can easily identify a magic item, scroll, wand or even spell of a school they have barred. My level 20 wizard who has banned evocation can still instantly recognize a wand or scroll of magic missile, knows how to do everything to activate wands of similar level or knows the language of magic to read such a scroll, and can even counter the spell if used against him, yet is inexplicably unable to activate the item in question. What does any of that have to do with science?
Magic ISN'T a science, it's a technology.
But magic still has rules, such as one who abandons one 'school' may not cast from it. That's a LAW of arcane. And that means science can be useful for studying it. Gravity means things with mass fall in a vacuum on this planet at an acceleration of about 9.8 meters per second per second. That's a LAW of physics. What MAKES things with mass do that? We don't know. We have theories that explain it satisfactorily, and they are held as 'correct' until we find phenomena the theory doesn't cover. My theory was the 'because-they-study-too-hard-at-other-things, theory. Until you basically popped it with some intriguing phenomena, that such a caster can do everything BUT cast the spell. Which my theory can not explain, as is. That's theoretical science, the ever churning refinement of knowledge through a series of lies that fit what is then known. Since magic has rules, strange as they may be, seemingly contradictory as they may be, it can be included in this process.

Optimystik

2009-12-13, 12:47 AM

OldTrees

2009-12-13, 12:51 AM

How I make sense of the school specialization.

A school specialist delves deeply into the arcane laws that govern that school and does so at the expense of delving into every other school. Since wizards know that progressing their specialization at regular speed at the cost of every other school being delayed is a bad move (see Mystic Theurge) the decide to discard some schools in their schooling after the prerequisite basic principles (pre spells). An analogy of what I am calling prespells in science would be things taught in the freshmen courses. The additional arcane laws necessary to craft actual spells normally would be included in higher level courses.

These laws just deal with how to craft the spell into a free but limited space "memorize"able scroll like form (ie memorized vancian casting)
Once it is in the scroll form they rely on their fundamental laws to release the magic.

Additionally Spellcraft is a study to recognize the release of a spell and the correlation between what is needed to release them (components), the energy that is forming and their guess based upon their situation(favorable/unfavorable circumstances)

Most mages would study (put ranks into) spellcraft so they can anticipate what is happening when their experiments mess up.

Finally, limited wish and wish are (IMHO) not controlled by the caster but are rather like summoning and asking a djinni (or efreeti if the wish is to be corrupted)

I think this explanation is consistent and covers the points so far. (please correct me where I am wrong.)

Optimystik

2009-12-13, 01:12 AM

I think this explanation is consistent and covers the points so far. (please correct me where I am wrong.)

Without trying to belabor the point, I did find some aspects of your explanation that could use clarification.

1) Generalists do not experience any delay in their spell progression even though they divide themselves up amongst all available schools. By your explanation, studying all the schools of magic at once should be difficult if not impossible for them, but the only penalty generalists suffer is less castings per day, not any kind of reduction in their potential spells known. Similarly, a focused specialist should, by your logic, experience even faster progression for having abandoned not two, but three schools of magic, but the mechanics do not bear out this occurrence either.

2) If the "fundamental laws" release magic from scrolls and wands, then their magic should not be restricted for specialists either, as those fundamentals would be available to all wizards. But the mechanics do restrict specialists and focused specialists in this way.

3) Spellcraft is capable of identifying spells even before they are released - this is the mechanic that makes counterspelling possible. For a wizard who has abandoned studying a certain school of magic to be able to identify specific spells of that school being cast is remarkable. More importantly, he is capable of doing so throughout his career no matter how long ago he abandoned that particular school, with the only mechanical nod to this incongruity being the -5 penalty.

4) Wish and Limited Wish cannot be related to summoning or calling djinni of any kind, as both spells are still available to wizards who have barred conjuration.

averagejoe

2009-12-13, 01:40 AM

olentu

2009-12-13, 02:21 AM

Well to add some information I believe that at least in faerun there is a set of feats that allow one to gain the ability to learn and cast a spell from a barred school, use spell trigger items for that barred school, and eventually gain back use of all spells a barred school. I believe that there is a limit on the final feat of only being able to take it once but I also recall that for the first in the chain one can take it multiple times meaning that if I remember correctly a specialist wizard of sufficient level could be able to cast all spells of a barred school. However while I recall no prohibition for taking the item granting one as there is in the last there is also no permission as in the first.

I believe these are in the lost empires of faerun book.

Sir_Elderberry

2009-12-13, 02:26 AM

Magic spells are not cast by waving your hands around; they are completed. A wizard has to prepare spells, after all. This arcane energy is then stored mentally--hence why higher INT gives you more bonus spells. However, each school is a slightly different kind of arcane energy. You could optimize your mental structures to store a particular kind of energy highly effectively, but to do this requires sacrificing the structures allowing you to tap into other types.

It's as if your computer can only read certain file extensions. There's a special JPEG compression algorithm that'll let it hold more pictures, but you'll have to overwrite the part of your PC that reads MP3's. Or something.

Sotharsyl

2009-12-13, 05:43 AM

IMHO wizards are the closest thing you can have to real life scientist in vannila D&D,for that why doesn't a fighter cast a spell if he does exactly what a wizard did I'll answer with a question can a fighter,a person trained only to fight, really do exactly the procedures required?
I personnaly think not a layman could watch a programmer write a simple program,compile it,run it but could he recreate the same program just by imitating him,remember he has no training no manuals nobody is teaching him or else he'd be a mage's aprentice with some figthing skill, of course not sure he'd open the IDE write some "code" try to run it but he'd just get errors and:smallfurious:.
Now for the previous example and the next I'll be running with the theory that even the smallest cantrip isn't a hello world program but something more sofistacated,which you can't do without x100 lines of code.
Why doesn't the wizard who banned schools know the basics about the banned ones well he can still atempt spellcraft checks on them and use magic items which involve those disicplines,those are I think the barre minimum so he knows the basics better than a non caster.

Fortuna

2009-12-13, 06:13 AM

In answer to the original question, it used to be (back in AD&D, at the dawn of time) that arcane casting was tapping into other planes directly and channeling them. It was even stated that this meant that stuffing up could be nasty, and compared the system to electrical appliances (If you do it right, you plugged in the toaster. If you did it wrong, you forgot to turn the toaster on or plugged in the microwave instead or plugged in the toaster underwater). That is the rationale that I use in my games, although I go for having only a very few things which cannot be explained away, to the point where I say that spells actually have a bit which can be found with a high Spellcraft check telling you where they draw power from.

BobVosh

2009-12-13, 06:29 AM

Q. How does arcane magic work?

A. It doesn't, it is broken. Ask anyone on this board.

Back to your regularly schedule discussion.

Lamech

2009-12-13, 10:47 AM

Your LAW is rather easy to break (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/limitedwish.htm) - making it not much of a law at all.

But science has much more clearly defined - if only somewhat less inexplicable - boundaries.

The primary difference between fantasy and science - in fantasy, "rules are made to be broken." In science "rules are rules."
If a wizard has say... baned enchantment, he could not cast geas, or dominate person. If he prepares limited wish he still lacks the ablity to cast geas, or dominate person. He can on the other hand mimic those effects, with a totally differant spell that is very obviously NOT geas or dominate person. Note how limited wish drains away his "personal power", and is cast much, much faster than geas? Or is much harder to resist than dominate person? And can't be counterspelled by either?

The law wasn't broken at all. Even if it was. still wouldn't really matter; your dealing with the outputs of what is likely the most complicated biological system on the planet, so if it doesn't have a whole lot of hard and fast rules but exceptions coming out the ears. We don't say psychology is not a science because you can find ancedotal evidence that seems to violate every common principal.

The entire science of psychology which deals with the super-complex system that is the brain, has "laws" and what not. And endless exceptions. Or we can take the law of independent assortment, from genetics. And see that it has exceptions. Does this mean genetics is not a science?

Anonymouswizard

2009-12-13, 11:11 AM

To use magic you must use energy known as mana. Mana can be drawn from the land, and is replenished by the universe. Extremely powerful beings can draw mana from all over the universe.

Magic is gained by drawing energy from other planes. Whenever you cast a fireball you draw energy from the plane of fire.

When you cast a spell you tap into one of the 8 (not 6) winds of magic.

A wizard did it.

Also, can we have the page number in complete arcane for the material component desciption? It is not in chapters 4, 5, or 7.

EDIT: some magic users are scientists: wizards are physicists, druids are biologists, and then chemistry is replaced by alchemy. Knock yourself out.

Optimystik

2009-12-13, 02:18 PM

I think it might expedite the discussion if you were to define science for us; I'm not sure both sides are working off the same definition.

I'm pretty sure I already did earlier, but I'll be glad to repeat myself:

With science, as long as you follow the same steps as someone else under the same conditions, you can achieve the same results.

But with magic, even if a fighter makes the same gestures, says the same words and has the same components in his belt pouch, nothing will happen. Or even if both performers are wizards, have one be an evoker and the other have barred evocation, and the fact that they are both wizards means nothing when one tries to duplicate the other's work.

I may not be a physicist, but if one gives me an instruction manual on how to turn on the LHC, I can probably do it. This is not true for arcane magic.

This is the basic premise that I am basing my argument from. Science allows others to duplicate each others results, or even provides explanations why when one scientist is unable to achieve the same results as another scientist. Arcane magic does not.

Incantations (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/incantations.htm) are the closest D&D has come to true science - spells that can be performed by anyone, provided they follow the same instructions under the same conditions. But they are not only variant magic, they are also not explicitly arcane.

Magic spells are not cast by waving your hands around; they are completed. A wizard has to prepare spells, after all. This arcane energy is then stored mentally--hence why higher INT gives you more bonus spells. However, each school is a slightly different kind of arcane energy. You could optimize your mental structures to store a particular kind of energy highly effectively, but to do this requires sacrificing the structures allowing you to tap into other types.

It's as if your computer can only read certain file extensions. There's a special JPEG compression algorithm that'll let it hold more pictures, but you'll have to overwrite the part of your PC that reads MP3's. Or something.

That's a fair explanation, and one that the existence of Use Magic Device even supports - a skill that allows anyone, even non-wizards, to complete spells stored in objects. But that explanation fails to account for the fact that wizards themselves, despite all their magical training, do not have access to this skill, and are thus unable to complete spells from outside their specializations. But shouldn't a wizard, having steeped his mind in the arcane, be able to at least complete a spell from beyond his repertoire even if he cannot prepare one himself?

And there are other intelligence-based arcanists who do not prepare spells either - Factotums and Beguilers, for example. Their power supposedly comes from study as well, yet they do not half-cast all their spells every morning. Where does their power come from then? They have no convenient bloodline explanation like Sorcerers and Warlocks do, yet they are arcanists all the same.

Lamech

2009-12-13, 03:26 PM

I'm pretty sure I already did earlier, but I'll be glad to repeat myself:

With science, as long as you follow the same steps as someone else under the same conditions, you can achieve the same results.

But with magic, even if a fighter makes the same gestures, says the same words and has the same components in his belt pouch, nothing will happen. Or even if both performers are wizards, have one be an evoker and the other have barred evocation, and the fact that they are both wizards means nothing when one tries to duplicate the other's work.

I may not be a physicist, but if one gives me an instruction manual on how to turn on the LHC, I can probably do it. This is not true for arcane magic.See the problem with this analogy is that the wizard and the fighter have differant tools. The wizard is a essential part of casting a spell. The fighter can not follow the same procedure because he does not have the same tools. If say he went through the training to get a brain that could store spells, then yes he could copy the wizards methods and cast spells. Until then he does not have the right tools, and can not do the same thing.

For an analogy lets say we have two scientists A and B. They are researching memory. A and B read a list of word pairs. The next day A remembers 17 and B 5. We do not say that memory does not have rules of science. We say that some brains have better memory than others. Magic is the same, some brains can store spells and some can't.

This is the basic premise that I am basing my argument from. Science allows others to duplicate each others results, or even provides explanations why when one scientist is unable to achieve the same results as another scientist. Arcane magic does not.The results can be duplicated. If we take the same wizard and follow the same procedure we get the same results. If you follow the same procedure with something totally differant you get totally differant results. Another example, one scientist injects himself with the black death and is fine. Another injects himself with the black plauge and the second scientist dies. The same experiment, two differant results? No not at all, two totally differant experiments with two totally differant results; one had an immune person the other did not.

That's a fair explanation, and one that the existence of Use Magic Device even supports - a skill that allows anyone, even non-wizards, to complete spells stored in objects. But that explanation fails to account for the fact that wizards themselves, despite all their magical training, do not have access to this skill, and are thus unable to complete spells from outside their specializations. But shouldn't a wizard, having steeped his mind in the arcane, be able to at least complete a spell from beyond his repertoire even if he cannot prepare one himself?Clearly use magic device uses totally differant methods of releasing magical power than the standard methods. It wasn't included in wizard training anymore than jumping high. Whats your point?

And there are other intelligence-based arcanists who do not prepare spells either - Factotums and Beguilers, for example. Their power supposedly comes from study as well, yet they do not half-cast all their spells every morning. Where does their power come from then? They have no convenient bloodline explanation like Sorcerers and Warlocks do, yet they are arcanists all the same.Factotums use spell like ablities. NOT arcane magic. Beguilers also must use a differant method, much like sorcerers use a differant method of casting. Arcane and Divine are broad catagories. Many things in our world have differant methods to achieve the same result. This is par for the course in science.

hiryuu

2009-12-14, 04:41 PM

I'm pretty sure I already did earlier

No, you didn't, and that's the problem with your argument. You're confusing science with the physical model. You're trying to make a semantics argument when you're failing at the basic definitions of the words you're trying to use.

I'll mention it again to try to get it through to you:

Science is a systematic, prescriptive process by which experiments are devised and performed that is capable of resulting in predictive outcomes. Science involves formulating a hypothesis and providing experiments to provide evidence for that hypothesis. It also refers to the body of knowledge created by this particular research.

Notice that nowhere does it say "science is not magic." Or "if you follow the same steps, science says the same thing happens." You're confusing that with "makes predictions."

Science would not care that a fighter can't cast magic missile. That doesn't affect the scientific process in anyway except allow us to predict that some people can't cast magic missile. Why that is, well, we don't know yet, but we can now make that prediction, and it gives us an idea of where to look.

The problem you're running into here is that each setting is going to have a different physical model: it's going to have a different reason for why arcane magic works the way it does, so predicting the physical model for several different D&D settings at the same time is fruitless. You've got to focus on one setting.

A world's magic may have arbitrary rules, but they are still rules. You're going to have to get used to the idea that some of the world's laws may be completely arbitrary, like "every three days the sun turns purple due to phlogiston interactions with the planar boundary to the ethereal" or worse. That doesn't invalidate science at all, just our universe's physics.

averagejoe

2009-12-14, 05:44 PM

I'm pretty sure I already did earlier, but I'll be glad to repeat myself:

That isn't actually a definition, but whatever.

This is the basic premise that I am basing my argument from. Science allows others to duplicate each others results, or even provides explanations why when one scientist is unable to achieve the same results as another scientist. Arcane magic does not.

See, I'm not even sure what you mean by things like, "With science, as long as you follow the same steps as someone else under the same conditions, you can achieve the same results," or, "Science allows others to duplicate each others results." You haven't even said what science is, so such sentences are completely nonsensical. (And they're somewhat nonsensical in light of what science is.) Science isn't this mysterious "thing" that allows things to happen. hiryuu has already said what it is, and provided a good explaination, and I don't want to step on his toes... well, let's put it this way.

The laws of physics are, at least hypothetically, breakable. However, physics is not. Let's say I'm a scientist, and one day I go outside. I see this rock jump up and fly around my yard several times while singing "I'm Henry the Eighth, I Am." Let's further assume that this happens in a way which is inconsistent with the physical laws as we know them. The scientist doesn't see this and go, "Oh, magic must exist!" They say, "I wonder how this happened, what caused it to happen, and whether I can make it happen again." Maybe, in the process of finding out the answers to these questions, the scientist discovers that what we think of as physical laws are incorrect or incomplete; he'd be very pleased here, because discovering this is how you get to be a really famous scientist. On the other hand, maybe he can't reproduce this event. Maybe it was a once-in-a-universe thing, or a freak accident, or the invasion of spirits into our world, or those mushrooms he ate before leaving the house. None of these explanations would make the process "not science," however.

In short, if a scientist sees "magic," happening, he doesn't think, "Oh, science is wrong!" he thinks, "Oh, the scientific canon is incomplete. I'm going to study this phenomenon and see when it happens, why it happens, what affects it, how things affect it, what someone can do to reproduce it," and so on. In DnD wizards have, evidently, answered these questions to some degree, except maybe "why," which is setting specific. Even if the answer to "What someone can do to reproduce it," is, "Be born with innate magical talent," that doesn't stop it from being science, it just means that it's a universe with laws that are different from those in our world.

Tinydwarfman

2009-12-14, 06:20 PM

I see the reason as to why a fighter cannot cast magic missile if he does the same actions as a wizard because he does not have any magical aptitude.

if someone w/ strength 6 pushed a boulder the exact same way as someone w/ strength 16, the boulder would not move for Mr. strength 6. It would move for Mr. strength 16. A fighter just has "magic strength" 0. A wizard can raise it by training just like regular strength, and a sorcerer is just naturally buff.

Same thing happens with prohibited schools. The wizard did not train to swim at all (Enchantment), but he specialized in punching (Evocation). if he wanted to, he could not be as good in evocation, but still use enchantment spells, then he would be a generalist.

Bibliomancer

2009-12-14, 07:40 PM

Also, can we have the page number in complete arcane for the material component desciption? It is not in chapters 4, 5, or 7.

The description of the new theory about material components is on page 6 or thereabouts in the first chapter of the Complete Mage. I apologize. I thought it was the Complete Arcane.

I see the reason as to why a fighter cannot cast magic missile if he does the same actions as a wizard because he does not have any magical aptitude.

if someone w/ strength 6 pushed a boulder the exact same way as someone w/ strength 16, the boulder would not move for Mr. strength 6. It would move for Mr. strength 16. A fighter just has "magic strength" 0. A wizard can raise it by training just like regular strength, and a sorcerer is just naturally buff.

Same thing happens with prohibited schools. The wizard did not train to swim at all (Enchantment), but he specialized in punching (Evocation). if he wanted to, he could not be as good in evocation, but still use enchantment spells, then he would be a generalist.

I find this argument highly amusing because it is attempting to justify the mechanics of a roleplaying game in terms of the laws of physics.

That said, magic appears to conform to laws because that's how we're defining it (in terms of rules). However, the baffling array of exceptions and permutations on the basic set should be an indication that, in a 'real' world with magic and wizards, these rules would be guidelines or sweeping generalizations, which all casters tweak in a certain way. Thus, magic is not science because no-one could hope to come up with a unified equation of magic, or even a unified spell level equation.

Lamech

2009-12-14, 10:26 PM

The description of the new theory about material components is on page 6 or thereabouts in the first chapter of the Complete Mage. I apologize. I thought it was the Complete Arcane.

I find this argument highly amusing because it is attempting to justify the mechanics of a roleplaying game in terms of the laws of physics.

That said, magic appears to conform to laws because that's how we're defining it (in terms of rules). However, the baffling array of exceptions and permutations on the basic set should be an indication that, in a 'real' world with magic and wizards, these rules would be guidelines or sweeping generalizations, which all casters tweak in a certain way. Thus, magic is not science because no-one could hope to come up with a unified equation of magic, or even a unified spell level equation.This argument seems to be along the lines of, "there are a huge number of unique cases. Therefore they can never be understood. Therefore not science." Just because there are as many unique cases as there are spieces does not make it not science any more than we can say biology is not science with the same logic. And don't tell me there arn't a baffling array of exceptions and tweaks to biological creatures. And no don't say we can look at cells and see they all follow the same rules; for all we know fantasy wizards or spell designers can do something similar, but the end result still seems to have endless variety, and exceptions. Of course, WotC didn't write a complete sciencentific field for there rules of magic. That would be a massive undertaking, and rather pointless.

And even if the rules were completely arbitrary that doesn't mean one can't look at it with science. Science doesn't care that something is arbitrary. It still tries ot find out the laws.

The people who come up with new magical techniques and figure out how these rules of magic work are likely a type of scientist. Perhaps an exceedingly poor one. The wizards themselves are more like a combination car mechanic and car; they do the magic and operate the magic.

taltamir

2009-12-14, 10:38 PM

i understand that with arcane magic the source of power is from the person casting it and divine magic is from a deity or some outside source.

but how does it work? i know magic from warhammer is just energy(six winds) being taken from some realm, and being generated from the hands of a magic user.(or atleast i can use that as an example, not 100% if thats correct)

other way around...
The god/ess/gods of magic creates the "weave" which can be tapped by arcane casters to cast spells. Those spells get weaker over time as the gods nerf arcane magic due to abuses (ex: when someone uses mythallar to try to usurp the god of magic who suicides, eliminating all magic in the world for a few seconds before a new god of magic is born; who then nerfs arcane magic).

Divine casting is done by chaneling energy from the plane of positive energy or negative energy and forming spells out of that. The energy can be just spent directly as a "harm" or "cure" spell (spontaneous conversion). Divine casters are "vested" by another divine caster (cleric), an extra dimensional being (demon/angel), or a god (very rare). When so vested they gain the ability to perform divine magic.

They MAY worship a god, a cause, themselves, an alignment, etc... If they piss off their patron, he will like SEAL their ability to REGAIN spells. However, prepared spells WILL NOT be lost and can still be cast, even a god cannot take that. Nor can he take the "ability" they have aquired... Should he convert to another religion, atone to his god, or otherwise resolve the issue, he would have an "atonement" SPELL cast upon him, which breaks the seal on his power and gaining back the exact same amount of casting power they had before (or rather, the ability to regain spell slots / prepare new spells).

Naturally, worshiping "selfishness" or "power" is a great way to avoid the risk of having a god seal your powers. It also lets you chose ANY domain you desire.

Oh, and then you have ur priests.. whose goal is to destroy all gods, and they "steal" divine magic spells from the gods against their will (which contradicts the other explanation somewhat)...

Of course this is all pretty much "setting dependent"; I was refering to the setting presumed in the PHB and DMG...
In faerun for example, divine spells come from the gods, and arcane is AIDED by the gods of magic (without which arcane spells are weaker but possible).

Devils_Advocate

2009-12-15, 03:26 AM

The world is shaped by the will of an all-powerful overdeity known as the Deeyem. By performing elaborate rituals, mortals can persuade the Deeyem to work miracles on their behalf.

The precise details involved vary from case to case according to the Deeyem's inscrutable will.

dsmiles

2009-12-15, 05:23 AM

Just as a "for instance"

I use the BESM: The Slayers d20 magic system, where the energy comes from the caster (literally, casting a spell deals non-lethal damage to the caster). The power sources are defined as follows:

Sorcery (Black Magic) Spells are deals with Lower Planar entities (demons/devils). As such, almost all Sorcery spells deal damage. (INT based)

Divine (White Magic) Spells are deals with Upper Planar entities (angels/eladrin/etc). Divine spells have a wide range of effects: healing, buffing, illusion, summoning, etc. (CHA based)

Natural (Shamanist Magic) Spells draw on the power of (you guessed it) nature, to do what they do. Many Natural magic spells deal elemental-type damage, but some buff, some bind, etc. (WIS based)

I also added Necromantic (Death Magic) Spells to the system. They are deals with powerful spirits (ghosts/spectres/banshee) to create and control the undead (but not spirits). Very few Necromantic spells deal damage, most have to do with creating/controlling/turning and buffing/debuffing the undead. Yes, you can be a "good" necromancer in my campaign, since there are not true "clerics" around to turn undead. (CHA based)

It's really a fun system, and you can cast spells as long as you have HP remianing (you can choose to take lethal damage in spellcasting, which provides some bonuses). And some of the spells have interesting effects. Also, I converted all of the spells appropriate to my campaign world from the PHB and Mongoose's Ultimate Arcane Spell Compendium to this system.

Optimystik

2009-12-15, 08:11 AM

See the problem with this analogy is that the wizard and the fighter have differant tools. The wizard is a essential part of casting a spell. The fighter can not follow the same procedure because he does not have the same tools. If say he went through the training to get a brain that could store spells, then yes he could copy the wizards methods and cast spells. Until then he does not have the right tools, and can not do the same thing.

I still disagree; clearly a Wizard's brain is not an essential part of casting a spell, because many other classes without any magical training whatsoever are capable of arcane magic. In addition, many classes are capable of rudimentary magic through mimicking the actions of wizards or studying magical theory.

Furthermore, wizards - and only wizards - are able to selectively restrict their learning through specialization.

Finally, there are even individuals who can achieve arcane effects simply by siphoning off and converting arcane energy - such as Erudites and Spellthieves.

For an analogy lets say we have two scientists A and B. They are researching memory. A and B read a list of word pairs. The next day A remembers 17 and B 5. We do not say that memory does not have rules of science. We say that some brains have better memory than others. Magic is the same, some brains can store spells and some can't.

The results can be duplicated. If we take the same wizard and follow the same procedure we get the same results. If you follow the same procedure with something totally differant you get totally differant results. Another example, one scientist injects himself with the black death and is fine. Another injects himself with the black plauge and the second scientist dies. The same experiment, two differant results? No not at all, two totally differant experiments with two totally differant results; one had an immune person the other did not.

These analogies are based on the same premise, and thus fail for the same reason. In both, one of the conditions of your "experiment" - the environment in which it is conducted - is the scientist himself. Different environments, different results - I would expect no less.

But all arcane casters have the same environment. Put a Beguiler, a Spellthief, even a Factotum in an Anti-Magic Field, and you have the same result. It doesn't matter how smart or skilled any of them is, clearly the environment is the same - thus their arcanism fails.

Clearly use magic device uses totally differant methods of releasing magical power than the standard methods. It wasn't included in wizard training anymore than jumping high. Whats your point?

The description of the ability itself says no such thing. It says the practitioner can "fake it" - i.e. mimicking an arcanist, or divine caster, not coming up with something entirely new. And how could they? A spell trigger item is designed with only one trigger. There can be only one way to activate it, by definition.

I was merely pointing out the incongruity that the most surefire way of being able to use a specialized wizard's wand is not being a specialized wizard.

Factotums use spell like ablities. NOT arcane magic. Beguilers also must use a differant method, much like sorcerers use a differant method of casting. Arcane and Divine are broad catagories. Many things in our world have differant methods to achieve the same result. This is par for the course in science.

Different methods or not, even the simplest person is capable of scientific effects. Drop a Mentos into a Diet Coke - SCIENCE! Whether you understand what is happening chemically or not, you can repeat it. Turn on a car - SCIENCE! Whether you know the physics that makes it move or not, you can repeat this act too.

FR was once like this - In Netheril, there were low-level arcane magic effects that anyone could use. The setting used Karsus' Folly as the justification for Mystra's restriction, tying arcane magic to a divine source. She purposefully obfuscated magic, even going so far as to place mental blocks in EVERY wizard/sorcerer to make material components a necessity, restricting its use to explicit arcanists. As silly as this sounds, its the only setting where arcane magic's arbitrary rules are made less arbitrary.

That's what I mean by science - effects that can be achieved and repeated by anyone, regardless of understanding or being on the "approved list." Though perhaps technology would be a better term.

Lamech

2009-12-15, 01:01 PM

I still disagree; clearly a Wizard's brain is not an essential part of casting a spell, because many other classes without any magical training whatsoever are capable of arcane magic. In addition, many classes are capable of rudimentary magic through mimicking the actions of wizards or studying magical theory.Clearly there are multiple methods of achieving a one effect. Whats your point? Two (wizard, beguiler) things giving the same result does not mean a third (fighter) thing will. A programmer can have an arbitrary number of programs that return "Hello". It does not mean that any program can return "Hello".

Furthermore, wizards - and only wizards - are able to selectively restrict their learning through specialization.Wizards and only wizards use wizard methods of casting spells. For some reason wizards are the only ones who can specialize. It seems arbitrary, but again that doesn't matter for science.

Finally, there are even individuals who can achieve arcane effects simply by siphoning off and converting arcane energy - such as Erudites and Spellthieves.
Similar effects and different methods. Seems normal for our world. It doesn't mean science doesn't work.

These analogies are based on the same premise, and thus fail for the same reason. In both, one of the conditions of your "experiment" - the environment in which it is conducted - is the scientist himself. Different environments, different results - I would expect no less.Yes, they are different conditions. Thats the whole point. The whole point is your changing one of the conditions when you say "A wizard can do it, and a fighter can't." When you look at that the conclusion is not "We can't do science" Its "the wizard is important."

But all arcane casters have the same environment. Put a Beguiler, a Spellthief, even a Factotum in an Anti-Magic Field, and you have the same result. It doesn't matter how smart or skilled any of them is, clearly the environment is the same - thus their arcanism fails.I'm sorry what the point... something effects all of them? If we look at the black plauge experiment, being beheaded would cause them both to die. Just because factotums and wizards are affected by something doesn't make them the same.

The description of the ability itself says no such thing. It says the practitioner can "fake it" - i.e. mimicking an arcanist, or divine caster, not coming up with something entirely new. And how could they? A spell trigger item is designed with only one trigger. There can be only one way to activate it, by definition.They are capable of faking race, alignment, ect, despite the fact that they don't have it. That is something a wizard doesn't get the ablity to do. Its totally different in that everything is fake; I suppose one could argue that isn't totally different. Regradless, it is different methods. The rogues methods can do many things any wizard's can not. Therefore just because a rogue can do it does not mean a wizard can.

I was merely pointing out the incongruity that the most surefire way of being able to use a specialized wizard's wand is not being a specialized wizard.I fail to see the point of how this is incongruent. Its another definable (yet arbitary) rule...

Different methods or not, even the simplest person is capable of scientific effects. Drop a Mentos into a Diet Coke - SCIENCE! Whether you understand what is happening chemically or not, you can repeat it. Turn on a car - SCIENCE! Whether you know the physics that makes it move or not, you can repeat this act too.The simplest person can drop a bead of fireball and see the explosion. SCIENCE! In fantasyland they may not be able to repeat some magic because they lack a key component; that the key component is internal to the people who have it is meaningless.

In the real world there are chemicals that can burn the skin of some, but not others. (And of course the chemical is probably undergoing different reactions as well.) Different things can affect people differently, different people can affect things differently. If say some person is experimenting with bacteria, they may find an experiment unrepeatable if they are breathing out a virus that kills all bacteria. These things are analougus to magic depending on the person.

That's what I mean by science - effects that can be achieved and repeated by anyone, regardless of understanding or being on the "approved list." Though perhaps technology would be a better term.
One, technology and science are totally different things. The wizard is a combination piece of technology and technology operator. Science finds how the world works, and discovers how to get stuff done. And yes, experiments can only work for people on the "approved list" if the person doing the experiment affects the experiment.
Two tech can very obviously work for some, but not others. See doors opened by fingerprint scanners. If you copy Bob and put your finger on the scanner the door may not open for you.

Alright I'm going to try to sum up where you went wrong. You've basically done an experiment where your controlling for all the factors except who does it. Correct? We take a fighter he waves his hand and babbles nothing happens. A wizard does the same. That IS science. You just did an experiment. In this experiment the controls are everything except the person doing it. Your variable is the person attempting to cast. The results is a wizard gives magic and the fighter doesn't. Therefore we can conclude the wizard causes the magic.

Far from showing that magic and science are incompatible, you have done the oppisite and used science with magic.

Tinydwarfman

2009-12-16, 05:20 PM

I find this argument highly amusing because it is attempting to justify the mechanics of a roleplaying game in terms of the laws of physics.

That said, magic appears to conform to laws because that's how we're defining it (in terms of rules). However, the baffling array of exceptions and permutations on the basic set should be an indication that, in a 'real' world with magic and wizards, these rules would be guidelines or sweeping generalizations, which all casters tweak in a certain way. Thus, magic is not science because no-one could hope to come up with a unified equation of magic, or even a unified spell level equation.

I wasn't trying to justify it in terms of the laws of physics, I was just making an analogy that one would understand, and do, since we have laws of physics. D&D has laws of magic. They may not be complete yet, (or even close), considering that they do not understand what is fundamentally happening when a spell is cast, but that does not mean they are non-existent. Until many years ago, when scientists were making huge discoveries, who would have thought that solid, liquids, and gases were all made of atoms? It may seem obvious now, but must have been completely baffling then. Just because something is complicated does not mean that there are not rules. and really, there aren't that many "baffling arrays of exceptions and permutations". I mean, we learned it, and we're just doing this as a past-time.
Also, if you explain what you mean by "unified equation", I will probably answer it better, but right now I take it mean an equation the defines and explains how magic works. An equation that defines and explains magic? How do you want an equation that defines and explains anything? We don't even have a unified equation for chemistry in our world, and have done centuries of research on the subject.

That's what I mean by science - effects that can be achieved and repeated by anyone, regardless of understanding or being on the "approved list." Though perhaps technology would be a better term.

Now I don't agree with this description science, so we are arguing different points, but if you want to drop mentos into coke, you need both of those things. If we take the mentos as the sorcerer's magic power, the dropping as the spell, and fizzing as the result, a fighter will copy it perfectly right, but have no mentos, and thus, no fizz. :smallfrown: