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Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 04:02 PM
Just for the sake of interest what are they called in D&D I'm thinking of getting one.

Harperfan7
2009-12-12, 04:04 PM
The Arms & Equipment guide has some rules for airships. Forgotten realms has them (in magic of faerun) and so does Eberron.

Moriato
2009-12-12, 04:06 PM
There's also Spellammers which are airships/space ships. The Spelljammer setting never really got fully converted to 3.X but there's some material in Dragon for it.

Meek
2009-12-12, 04:09 PM
Which Edition?

D&D 3.5: Arms and Equipment Guide has airships. I believe there's also a ship in Stormwrack that can hover above the ocean some distance, don't recall if it only works on the ocean or if it can fly that way anywhere.

4e: Manual of the Planes has planar ships, and I'd like to say AV2 has some more but I'm altogether unsure about that.

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 04:35 PM
Thanks I'm just looking for a faster mode of transportation for my party of eight.

Pyron
2009-12-12, 04:40 PM
Are you a player or the DM?

If you're the DM, then you just take a boat found in the PHB: give it a flight speed, clumsy maneuverability and be done with it.

Asheram
2009-12-12, 04:46 PM
As noted, there's one Zeppelin and one blimp in Arms and equipment guide.
Then there's the airships in ebberron.
A bit difficult to find, but there is a supplement out there called "Airships" It holds a lot of fun information but, as said, might be difficult to find.

Volkov
2009-12-12, 05:37 PM
If you get one, watch out for a italian plumber in red named Mario who will come out of nowhere and kick your rear end after fighting through an arbitrary number of mooks.

AslanCross
2009-12-12, 05:41 PM
Setting-specific books have them. Shining South has the more traditional zeppelin-type ones. Eberron's are powered by trapped elementals, so one could say they're repulsorlift/rocket powered.

(And yes, they're both called airships.)

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 05:42 PM
If you get one, watch out for a italian plumber in red named Mario who will come out of nowhere and kick your rear end after fighting through an arbitrary number of mooks.
Oh its not like I'm going to put anything important in there just some princesses and some turtles.

Volkov
2009-12-12, 05:59 PM
Oh its not like I'm going to put anything important in there just some princesses and some turtles.

Is the turtle one of bowser's eight kids, or his Father Figure Wizard Kamek?

Randel
2009-12-12, 06:22 PM
There are the airships in Eberron, I know that one supplement... I think its the Explorers Handbook has alot more detail about the airships and maps of them Plus, it has smaller flying boats for landing and stuff I think.

I remember there being archived maps and information about Explorers Handbook on with wizards site but I can't find it with the new site.

Randel
2009-12-12, 06:25 PM
Actually here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050803a&page=2) is an article on it (used google to find it).

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 06:34 PM
You know theirs a prestige class called dread pirate that requires me to have a ship worth 10,000 gp. Do you think airships count?.

bringatoweltoo
2009-12-12, 07:36 PM
IIRC, the Forgotten Realms airships are WELL over 100k... 10,000 is probably not going to cut it.

golentan
2009-12-12, 07:41 PM
I actually prefer to get a soarwhale. Better speed, less crew, and no maintenance at a fraction of the cost.

slap a howdah on 'im for comfort.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-12, 07:41 PM
When my PCs wanted an airship, they just went to the nearby Gnome tech-tower and stole one. That was a pool of plot hooks.

Optimystik
2009-12-12, 07:44 PM
Arms & Equipment Guide: Dirigibles are 35k, Zeppelins are 60k.

What level is your party? Hang Gliders are only 300gp a piece, and some kind of wind-controlling spell could keep you aloft. Wind Walk is another good choice, lasting for hours and capable of transporting multiple creatures.

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 07:56 PM
Still I can nail two birds with one stone if I can become a dread pirate and have a ship plus the hilarity of hopping in the ship and only traveling a couple of feet that we could've walked is just funny.Think about it you step out of the tavern hop in the ship head down the street and stop at the market.Also I have no issue with cash because I'm in the middle of a campaign so I'm not going to end up buying anything soon.

drengnikrafe
2009-12-12, 08:06 PM
Still I can nail two birds with one stone if I can become a dread pirate and have a ship plus the hilarity of hopping in the ship and only traveling a couple of feet that we could've walked is just funny.Think about it you step out of the tavern hop in the ship head down the street and stop at the market.

The first time I read this, I thought it said "Well, I can always just nail a stone to two birds, and call that a ship that can only travel a few feet".

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 08:15 PM
Well we do have an artificer.

BenTheJester
2009-12-12, 09:27 PM
I once homebrewed an Airship for a high-level game, I have to find it back.

IIRC, it could teleport 1/day, plane shift 1/day, was protected from the various elements from the different planes(except the elemental planes of earth and water).

It flew on a permanent Levitate, and the helm was actually directing a Control Wind spell.

AslanCross
2009-12-12, 09:33 PM
Checked the Eberron Explorer's Handbook.
The airship costs 92,000 GP and if you're in Eberron, it will not be for sale. House Lyrandar has a strict monopoly on their creation and operation.

The construction involves:
-the Bind Elemental feat
-greater planar binding
-46000 GP
-3680 XP
-92 days.

Keep in mind the airship is a large cruising vehicle about 300 feet long. Not just anyone can steer it---you need a helmsman with the Mark of Storm to make it move.

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 09:37 PM
Well this is purely to get the prestige class dread pirate and still have a useful vehicle sure I can buy a boat but are DM doesn't do many campaigns by the water. If I buy any kind of airship as long as its over 10,000 gp will work is there a cheaper airship that doesn't have as many requirements?

BenTheJester
2009-12-12, 09:41 PM
Well this is purely to get the prestige class dread pirate and still have a useful vehicle sure I can buy a boat but are DM doesn't do many campaigns by the water. If I buy any kind of airship as long as its over 10,000 gp will work is there a cheaper airship that doesn't have as many requirements?

Cast permanent levitate on a canoe?

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 09:44 PM
I could always buy a sailboat worth 10,000 gp (this boat is going to have spinning rims on it) than cast the permanent levitate.

Pyron
2009-12-12, 09:54 PM
If you want an airship for 8, do the following.

1) Dominate or Animate one Purple Worm.
2) Cast Permanent Overland on said Purple Worm.
3) Profit

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 10:03 PM
Wheres a belkar when you need one.

AslanCross
2009-12-12, 10:11 PM
If you're going with a levitated ship, you need to find a way to have reliable forward motion. Control Winds would be a good candidate.

The dirigible in Arms and Equipment guide, as was mentioned earlier, is 35,000 GP, but it's really kind of slow. (Speed is wind strength x 15 feet) The Eberron airship is a hotrod with a movement speed of 100 ft. That translates to a speed of 10 miles per hour, which, while slow, doesn't stop for rests. You can still travel while sleeping. 240 miles in one whole day of travel is pretty good time. (Other traveling methods either get tired or otherwise assume you only move for eight hours a day.)

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-12, 10:17 PM
Since the OP's question "What are they called" has been answered, rather than make a new, tangentially related thread, I'll ask here:


What cool stuff should I put on my airship? It's absolutely massive; the DM didn't give exact measurements but said something along the lines of



It's like the titanic. You know, with room for like, a football field without taking up half the ship?


I also bought an underground lair from the dwarves that I may put stuff in. I'm not really sure what should go in either of them.

Doomboy911
2009-12-12, 10:24 PM
I say you put a pool on it.

Origomar
2009-12-12, 10:33 PM
Put a giant collesium in it.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-12, 10:42 PM
Put a giant collesium in it.

While that would work, my airship happens to be powered by the stolen soul of a forsaken god, and so I can't risk people stealing it so allowing hundreds on board is a bad thing, and having a collusieum without a cheering crowd is just lame.

golentan
2009-12-12, 11:24 PM
Put tanks filled with dozens of tons of alchemist's fire in a fire retardant bomb bay. Put Cannons (stormwrack) on it. Get flying golems, undead, or other mindless critters (since you're afraid of theft) for air support and make it a Battlestar.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 08:48 AM
I say put a warforged titan for protection on it.

Sliver
2009-12-13, 09:19 AM
There is a book called Airships (http://dragonwing.net/Airships.htm) with a free preview (same page, here (http://dragonwing.net/downloads/e-ships.pdf))

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 09:30 AM
The link didn't work.

Sliver
2009-12-13, 10:20 AM
Ah yeah.. Didn't check the e-ships link, just the airships one.. There is the Airships book on google books, donno if that helps (or legal)

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-13, 10:30 AM
Checked the Eberron Explorer's Handbook.
The airship costs 92,000 GP and if you're in Eberron, it will not be for sale. House Lyrandar has a strict monopoly on their creation and operation.


Not actually true: according to Magic of Eberron, several groups including Canith and the [i forget the necromancers, i focused on the Lords of Dust in my games] have several, either by theft or by careful negotiation with the Path of Purity gnomish artificers' alliance.

The book also gives a list price for the item, then encourages the GM to charge an upkeep of bribes...don't have it with me to quote the number though. The price may well be in Secrets of Xendrik or the Explorer's Handbook though.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-13, 12:21 PM
The weapons in the Airship book linked above seem completely inefficient.

Take, for example, a Ballista. A ballista costs 1,500 by default and does 3d6 damage at a 200 foot increment. (average damage of 10.5)

Three rods of magic missile, on the other hand, will cost 2025 for me to create, have a range of 110 ft, and deal an average damage of 10.5.

At this point, the ballista looks good. Save 500 gold, use one gunner instead of three, and get bonus range AND get a chance to crit.

However, those stats are only for a standard deck-mounted ballista. A Deck Turret adds 1000 gp to the cost, putting a Side Turret on adds 5000 and a Bottom Turret costs 8000.

So, your airship with a Bottom Turret ballista spent 9500, and my airship with Magic Missile gunners spent slightly less and got 14 rods of magic missile, dealing five times as much damage with no miss chance.

Unless I'm missing something like "Normal damage values are not treated as dealing damage to an airship, as only heavy weapons can apply"

Sliver
2009-12-13, 12:52 PM
Can you target anything but creatures with magic missile? (no)

Knaight
2009-12-13, 01:15 PM
And the range is not comparable. Ballista range is 2000 feet, magic missile 110. So an enemy airship can pepper you with Ballistae before you even have the chance to counterattack.

Although that book has other problems that make it hilarious. Such as diamond airships, which are for some reason near invincible. Yes, diamond is hard, but it is also really, really brittle. And flammable for that matter. A diamond airship seems like a good way to go down in multiple fireballs more than anything.

Johel
2009-12-13, 01:30 PM
And the range is not comparable. Ballista range is 2000 feet, magic missile 110. So an enemy airship can pepper you with Ballistae before you even have the chance to counterattack.

Well, the ballista will shoot at 2.000 feet with a malus of -20.

Unless you got true marksman to man the ballista, it's just going to be a waste of ammunition, while a single flying opponent with the magic missile rod can take pot shots at the crew, with 100% accuracy.
Also, if you're willing to invest a little more into that rod, you can increase both range and damage...or even get a fireball rod. :smallamused:

golentan
2009-12-13, 01:38 PM
Well, the ballista will shoot at 2.000 feet with a malus of -20.

Unless you got true marksman to man the ballista, it's just going to be a waste of ammunition, while a single flying opponent with the magic missile rod can take pot shots at the crew, with 100% accuracy.
Also, if you're willing to invest a little more into that rod, you can increase both range and damage...or even get a fireball rod. :smallamused:

But you still automatically hit on a 20, and if you've got an airship the cost of ammunition probably isn't excessive. The enemy can and will monty python a magic missile barge.

Now, I once wrote up a homebrew spell for ships called magic torpedo (range of 3000, 4d12+10, only usable against inanimate objects) which was decent, but Magic Missile doesn't cut the mustard.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 01:45 PM
Hmm permanent levitate is sounded like a great option but to answer the defense question I still say warforged titan and maybe put a catapault on him.

Volkov
2009-12-13, 01:55 PM
Heres how you can get one, make a gate to the mario universe, and steal one from Bowser. It shouldn't be too hard.

Knaight
2009-12-13, 01:59 PM
My preferred method involves multiple glider frames, each of which is attached to a decanter of endless water in the back. With everyone having a lance, and lots and lots of alchemist fire. Maybe a couple of lead filled metal javelins designed to pierce armor as well. If you know where the engine is on the enemy ship, these can be useful.

Johel
2009-12-13, 02:56 PM
But you still automatically hit on a 20, and if you've got an airship the cost of ammunition probably isn't excessive. The enemy can and will monty python a magic missile barge.

I'm not worried about the cost of ammunition so much as the waste of it.
1 bolt out of 20, that means it takes 20 rounds to hit a single target...and even with that, the threat won't be dealt with.
Airships are good to transport goods and passengers but, unless used as bombers, I doubt their usefulness as a weapon.

A Giant Owl costs about 5.000 gp.
Add a magic missile wand for 750 gp
That puts the cost of an "Owl Interceptor" to 5.750 gp.
Let's consider a cost of 6.000 gp, because there'll be additional costs such as a saddle, a rider, ect...

The "Owl Interceptor" has a tactical fly speed of 70 ft.
To save us the trouble of calculating a straight pursuit between an interceptor and a airship, let's say the "interceptors are surrounding the ship and closing. 2.000 ft / 70 ft = 28,57 rounds.
That means the "Owl Interceptor" can close the distance in 30 rounds.
With an AC of 15, a average maneuverability and the "Mounted Combat" feat from its rider, an "Owl Interceptor" can safely close half that distance with only 5% chances to be hit if targeted. It can close the remaining distance with anything between 10% and 20% chances to be hit if targeted.

The key here is "if targeted", as there'll likely be more than 1 "Owl Interceptor" to take down that Airship. Take the cost of any airship, divide it by 7.500 gp and you have the number of "Owl Interceptor" that will have to be taken down. A group of 20 "Owl Interceptors" is still cheaper than most of the Airships given in the file. That means that, unless the Airship can fire 300 bolts in 30 rounds, a 20-owls squadron is going to reach it with nearly no losses.

Once they are at less than 100 ft from the ballista, the battle is over, as the ballista has a minimum range of 100 ft and the riders just have to circle above the ship while using their wands to kill all visible crewmen, which can be done with 100% accuracy. Since the Airship itself hasn't been damage, it can even be salvaged as soon as the deck is cleared.

Now, a squad of flying invisible wizards with wands would be cheaper and more effective but I try to work on a low-magic basis here, so that it can be done by most kingdoms and factions.

Knaight
2009-12-13, 03:09 PM
Except for most airships are very large targets with lousy AC. Peppering the airship in question doesn't actually need a 20 in most cases, and owl interceptors can be countered easily. Such as with half decent archers, or glider knights. Plus you can get 4 deck mounted ballistae per Owl interceptor.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 03:29 PM
Or even better if one were to hold a few casters on deck who know magic missile could easily take down some owls. See now my idea of a good idea is to take a wooden board make it levitate and than I can fly solo. Should I focus on magic I could sneak into any dungeon avoiding some of the touch activated traps and fly over enemies. Its a pretty useful item. Since I'm a bard running around on a flying board sounds kind of cool and its useful.

Johel
2009-12-13, 03:37 PM
Except for most airships are very large targets with lousy AC. Peppering the airship in question doesn't actually need a 20 in most cases, and owl interceptors can be countered easily. Such as with half decent archers, or glider knights. Plus you can get 4 deck mounted ballistae per Owl interceptor.

@most airship = large targets :
which isn't relevant here , given that the only weapon capable to damage them are powerful spells or siege engines, the latter having to be mounted on another airship...which will be an equally large target for your target. The point of using swarms of flying mounts is to avoid being hit.

@glider knights :
Don't know what they are but, by the name, I get they too use a flying mount, which confirm my little theory here : flying mounts are superior and more cost-effective than airships for air battle, since your answer to flying mounts is...other flying mounts.

@Archers :
Elite archers are indeed a threat, as they'll get range, number and accuracy.
Longbows have a optimal range of 100 ft and can shoot up to 1.000 ft, with -20. They do less damage than a ballista but can potentially fire more often.
I guess they are a potential problem... Any suggestion to take them down without damaging the airship or risking our own troops ?

@4 ballistae per owl :
that's 80 ballistae for a single airship, each ballista being a Huge-sized object !! The weight alone would prevent the airship to take off.

Knaight
2009-12-13, 04:11 PM
If you can fund 20 owls. Archers are much cheaper and will take them down. But the thing is that the owls are being deployed from an airship, and if the airship is taken down before the owls show up, then the side with the owls has just lost. Archers will screw you up from there. You might be able to counter them(Use tower shields to become immune, and ride to soak hits at your mount with said tower shield, use the owls to drop rocks instead of using magic missile.

As for glider knights, it doesn't work anyways. 9000 GP for the propulsion system is excessive, and while they can fly indefinitely, they ultimately have the exact same problem with only using flying mounts and not ships. You are screwed come the first big storm. Although you can cross oceans easily enough in temperate weather. Basically you can't avoid having an airship involved, as weather deals with that, and if you take down the enemy airships, you have already won. But, in addition to a weapons platform, you can also have smaller beings around, which is recomended. Basically you want at least 4 types of troops, and the right balance between them.

Melee Fighters: Boarding Parties and such require this.
Archers: Archers are an ideal counter to Owl Knights and similar.
Flying Units: Probably the best way to deal with enemy siege engines, if you can get to them.
Airships: Docking, allows other units to sleep when doing over ocean travel. Money is spent on siege engines to take down enemy airships.

The airships themselves have more use as somewhere to station the other units than anything else. Siege engines become useful simply because they can deal with enemy airships, meaning that all the other units are basically screwed.

There are other possibilities as well. These depend largely on your ability to load siege engines onto over sized hot air balloons. And by siege engines, I mean something akin to the porcupine.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 04:34 PM
How about my flying board idea though wouldn't that work. If I was a good caster or rogue I could if lucky enough take out a whole airship by sneaking up on it. Since I'm a small target I may he hard to see and I could just crash it and take the loot.

golentan
2009-12-13, 04:44 PM
@most airship = large targets :
which isn't relevant here , given that the only weapon capable to damage them are powerful spells or siege engines, the latter having to be mounted on another airship...which will be an equally large target for your target. The point of using swarms of flying mounts is to avoid being hit.

Swarms don't avoid getting hit by archers/other swarms, which was the point. And it's fairly easy to hit something when it has a listed AC of -2.


@glider knights :
Don't know what they are but, by the name, I get they too use a flying mount, which confirm my little theory here : flying mounts are superior and more cost-effective than airships for air battle, since your answer to flying mounts is...other flying mounts.
As with all such things, they aren't superior, any more than a solo airship is. You want a battlestar: Something that serves as both a weapon and launch platform. What you don't want is magic missiles. Your gliders should carry Alchemist's fire and bows.


@Archers :
Elite archers are indeed a threat, as they'll get range, number and accuracy.
Longbows have a optimal range of 100 ft and can shoot up to 1.000 ft, with -20. They do less damage than a ballista but can potentially fire more often.
I guess they are a potential problem... Any suggestion to take them down without damaging the airship or risking our own troops ?

No, there is no way to take them down without risk. So you employ risk tactics. Set the decks on fire, and strafe quickly and at mid range rather than engaging at close range or holding fire. They don't do much damage, though they do do damage. Once the enemy swarm is taken out, your ship can close to board or bombard, at which point the Archers die. And as I said before, employ skeletons for your swarm. They are your most cost effective weapon (25 GP/ hit die, and DR piercing).


@4 ballistae per owl :
that's 80 ballistae for a single airship, each ballista being a Huge-sized object !! The weight alone would prevent the airship to take off.
Okay, let's approach it another way: Let's say you have 5 18 owls. That is the cost of a whole second airship at a minimum. If you're using Soarwhales, that's the cost of another 6 soarwhales with full ballistas. If you're using cheap airships, thats 3-4 more airships with full ballistas.

You want them as a force multiplier, not your full force.

Edit: Oh, and P.S. Cannon are strictly superior to ballistas.

Johel
2009-12-13, 05:21 PM
If you can fund 20 owls. Archers are much cheaper and will take them down. But the thing is that the owls are being deployed from an airship, and if the airship is taken down before the owls show up, then the side with the owls has just lost. Archers will screw you up from there. You might be able to counter them(Use tower shields to become immune, and ride to soak hits at your mount with said tower shield, use the owls to drop rocks instead of using magic missile.

...Ok, big misunderstanding, here.

I don't deploy the owls FROM an airship. I deploy them AGAINST an airship (or any air-bound threat they can handle) from any ground-based camp.

There is no point to use Airships as "airplane carriers" since the flying mounts can land anywhere but water, without the needs for a landing zone. While I agree that a flying carrier can do a fantastic tactical weapon, this would just be too costly to be efficient on a strategical scale. Better use airships for transport of goods and ground troops only, with an eventual shipment of owls if they have to get somewhere quickly.

The point of using owls + riders + wands is that it's a lot cheaper and more flexible as an flying weapon than an airship is, while also being a lot more difficult to hit. There are disadvantages but those are if you use the owls for something else than an interception flying weapon.

Archers are indeed THE answer against the owl riders.

A potential counter would be to get a wand of invisibility for each squadron of 20 owl riders : that should make them invisible for 5 minutes each. With their fly speed of 70 ft a round, that's enough to cover 3.500 ft, more than the range of even the ballistae. This up the cost of the squadron from 120.000 to 124.500 but that's still 25.000 cheaper than even low-end airships.

And we are only using 2nd level spells, here.
If I can use 4th level spells, I can just send a single rider with a wand of Invisibility, a wand of Summon Monster IV and a wand of Magic Missile. Last thing you know, there's a small army of Huge Fiendish Monstrous Centipedes charging at the archers while their master is still invisible. When the deck is cleared of any ranged threat, the rider use his wand of magic missile to deal with whatever is left. This ruins his invisibility but that's ok : nobody can target him, now. All of this for a total cost of 32.250 gp.



As for glider knights, it doesn't work anyways. 9000 GP for the propulsion system is excessive, and while they can fly indefinitely, they ultimately have the exact same problem with only using flying mounts and not ships. You are screwed come the first big storm. Although you can cross oceans easily enough in temperate weather. Basically you can't avoid having an airship involved, as weather deals with that, and if you take down the enemy airships, you have already won. But, in addition to a weapons platform, you can also have smaller beings around, which is recomended. Basically you want at least 4 types of troops, and the right balance between them.

Again, the flying mounts aren't going to replace Airships for transport. They are meant as an interception force for when an hostile airship is spotted above your lands.

If you have to make them cross an ocean, yes, they can use an airship if you want them to cross fast but they aren't suppose to take off in mid trip above the sea. They can also take a regular sea ship if time and speed aren't factors here.


Melee Fighters: Boarding Parties and such require this.
Archers: Archers are an ideal counter to Owl Knights and similar.
Flying Units: Probably the best way to deal with enemy siege engines, if you can get to them.
Airships: Docking, allows other units to sleep when doing over ocean travel. Money is spent on siege engines to take down enemy airships.

Melee fighters aren't necessary once you've deal at a distance with whoever stood on the deck. Magic missile means 100% accuracy.

Archers are excellent, I won't contest it. I proposed a counter up there, though.

And here we seems to agree on the basic function of Airship : transport.

Now, as my "invisible squads of owl riders" proves, siege engines are a big waste, since they'll never see use against another airship if the latter is above a allied kingdom's border. You can hardly sneak on somebody when cruising the sky, let alone at less than 2.000 feet.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 05:31 PM
So what vehicle would be good for transportation and attacking.Because time and time again I think the board would work sure if you get knocked off you're screwed but preparing a feather fall isn't exactly the hardest task.

Johel
2009-12-13, 05:43 PM
So what vehicle would be good for transportation and attacking.Because time and time again I think the board would work sure if you get knocked off you're screwed but preparing a feather fall isn't exactly the hardest task.

Depends what you want to attack, really.

The main defense of airships are their thick hull, the range of their weapons and their speed. As a result, an opponent must be fast enough to close the distance and invisible so that he won't have to worry about AAA defense. Also, by targeting the crew rather than the ship, you simply ignore its hull and can potentially even capture the whole airship. If you can't, well, the fall WILL take care of the hull.

The "owl riders" have speed, maneuverability, accuracy and furtivity. Their main weakness, though, like IRL aircrafts, is their lack of endurance : they can't fly for long and this also limit their operational radius and overall travel speed (not their tactical speed, though). The best way to defeat them is dissipate magic or divination + archers...or to outrun them.

Ground-based targets are usually slow. That's their main weakness. Be fast, have a huge loading capacity, and you can just take about any of them while remaining out of range. At worst, you can simply DROP things on them. Your effective range is your altitude, then.

Knaight
2009-12-13, 06:14 PM
If you aren't deploying them from airships, utility is minimized. They can be outrun by most airships easily, particularly with harriers. Invisibility helps against this, but if you are deploying from land they can be easily outmaneuvered. Not to mention the obvious countermeasures at this point. Screw firing at the owns in war, by the time they reach you you can reach the land. Cue alchemist fire and flaming arrows. Trees? Fields? Thatch? Not anymore.

Triaxx
2009-12-13, 06:26 PM
Some useful equipment for making your airship fly:

Found growing wild from plants, the Levitation Crystals would grow until they were pulling up too hard on their vines and rise into the air, floating under their own power. Feeding on ambient magic, eventually the number of crystals would become to great and they would crash to the ground, slamming them to the ground and shattering them. Once it was learned that they could be shaped, and controlled, they were farmed, areas with high concentrations of magic being used to know when they were ripe. Only a few worlds grow the crystals, though they are slowly spreading. A great amount of magic is required to successfully transplant adult vines and so it is often horribly expensive to start a new farm.

Levitation Crystals feed on all ambient magic, whether generated naturally, or as the consequences of a spell. This does not make them immune to direct magical attack, nor the area of affect, but means that they will continue to function even in an Anti-Magic Field.

Levitation Crystal: 5,000gp per ten cubic feet of crystal, lifts 4 tons to five cubic feet. Must be found from a crystal farmer, or gated in. DC 45 Gemcrafting or 60 Masonry check to shape the crystal to fit, or 7,000gp for prefitted.

Crystals are controlled by harness matrices which use magically generated electricity to manipulate the natural levitation properties of the crystals. Matrices: Cost 2,000gp for one crystal harness, require no outside magical input and can be controlled by anyone capable of piloting a ship. Crafting: Craft Wonderous Item, Any spell with electrical descriptor, 1,200gp, one DC 15 craft check and one DC 25 craft check.

Construction is dependant on the first check, manueverability on the second. Failing the check means the control is limited to adjusting altitude, passing is worst manueverability rising one category for every 5 the check is passed by.

Any ship can be converted to function as an airship by the addition of levitation crystals, Even those as small as rowboats, or even smaller. Propulsion from levitation stones can be acquired using dedicated stones, or left over power. Any of the lift not used may be converted at a ratio of one hundred pounds to one foot of forward motion.

On airships as tools: Transport is a very good use of an airship. But Airships also make great weapons of war. An arrow fired from a hundred feet or so in the air, into a mass of troops? Pretty much guaranteed to hit something. It's the ultimate high ground.

When the Wizard is the lever, the airship is the place to stand so he may move the world. Your Ballista has a problem hitting 2000 ft away, cast True Strike on the one determining the aiming. Instant elimination of the penalty.

On airborne warriors: Falcons are better than owls. Owls are nearly silent and so good for sneaking up at night, but a Falcon can make an impressive dive and not suffer the latteral attack difficulties that let a Ballista fire at the Owls.

Incidentally, the crystals above can be used to create small aircraft with considerable speed and even a soap box can be made to fly fairly fast.

Volkov
2009-12-13, 06:49 PM
If you only use magic to get your ship in the air, you and your crew will be subject to critical existence failure each time a beholder or anything else with anti-magic or dispel magic pops up, as your means of flight will suddenly cease to be and gravity brings you down to a cruel, cruel death. That's why mechanical means should always be present as a back-up.

golentan
2009-12-13, 06:58 PM
If you only use magic to get your ship in the air, you and your crew will be subject to critical existence failure each time a beholder or anything else with anti-magic or dispel magic pops up, as your means of flight will suddenly cease to be and gravity brings you down to a cruel, cruel death. That's why mechanical means should always be present as a back-up.

Not a given. Dispel won't take out most items, and Antimagic will only cause a distributed system to lose height. A central core can also be easily defended (if it's 25 feet from any surface, as I recall nothing will hit it unless it makes it all the way to the core of your vessel. By the time they do that, it's relatively safe to assume that you're already ruined, because they either have a far better caster than you or have killed the rest of the crew. In the latter case, they've more likely seized the ship than decided to crash it.

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 07:01 PM
I've been wondering about that making small objects fly because I own a barrel I figure I could levitate that than deal with enemies from above.To ask what if I were enchant or build a object to levitate than tie the whole ship to it. Or to avoid magical attack all together I could just make it with a balloon.

Volkov
2009-12-13, 07:01 PM
Not a given. Dispel won't take out most items, and Antimagic will only cause a distributed system to lose height. A central core can also be easily defended (if it's 25 feet from any surface, as I recall nothing will hit it unless it makes it all the way to the core of your vessel. By the time they do that, it's relatively safe to assume that you're already ruined, because they either have a far better caster than you or have killed the rest of the crew. In the latter case, they've more likely seized the ship than decided to crash it.

A beholder can easily kill most airships, and as they can already fly, they really wouldn't need it, so they'd knock out it's flotation magic, then cast disintegrate, and laugh as half the ship turns to ash while the rest goes crashing back down to earth. I've done it to an NPC airship before, it's an incredibly effective way to knock them out of the sky.

golentan
2009-12-13, 07:21 PM
A beholder can easily kill most airships, and as they can already fly, they really wouldn't need it, so they'd knock out it's flotation magic, then cast disintegrate, and laugh as half the ship turns to ash while the rest goes crashing back down to earth. I've done it to an NPC airship before, it's an incredibly effective way to knock them out of the sky.

But again, this is only when there is a foe who is already sufficiently powerful that they can destroy your airship in a few quick rounds anyway. Why should we concern ourselves with having a backup balloon when the beholder can destroy 10 cubic feet of cloth, easily sufficient material to completely deflate the entire lifting device? Meanwhile, a distributed magical system (5 pieces each strong enough to lift about 1/4 the loaded vessel) will take several rounds to knock out completely, and accessing the core requires either conventionally fighting to the core or disintegrating your way in, lowering what the remainder of the system needs to be able to lift?

Worira
2009-12-13, 07:33 PM
Well, the ballista will shoot at 2.000 feet with a malus of -20.

Unless you got true marksman to man the ballista, it's just going to be a waste of ammunition, while a single flying opponent with the magic missile rod can take pot shots at the crew, with 100% accuracy.
Also, if you're willing to invest a little more into that rod, you can increase both range and damage...or even get a fireball rod. :smallamused:

Penalty. Anyway, I think an at-will item of true strike would help there. You'd only get a single shot every other round, or one per round with an assistant, but you'd easily hit airships at maximum range, and you could even snipe individual creatures, either on another craft or the ground.

And Volkov: Yes, a CR 13 monster is dangerous in a low-level setting like Eberron.. Your point?

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 08:12 PM
Still if you buy the boat than cast permanent levitate so the thing will never touch the ground than buy something to propel the boat so if you have a prop balloon and they take that out you can still sustain yourself you'll stay airborne you just won't move. The problem is now you have to stay and fight.If you were to fill your ship with other boats to escape or fight back it would be a good combo.

Volkov
2009-12-13, 08:33 PM
But again, this is only when there is a foe who is already sufficiently powerful that they can destroy your airship in a few quick rounds anyway. Why should we concern ourselves with having a backup balloon when the beholder can destroy 10 cubic feet of cloth, easily sufficient material to completely deflate the entire lifting device? Meanwhile, a distributed magical system (5 pieces each strong enough to lift about 1/4 the loaded vessel) will take several rounds to knock out completely, and accessing the core requires either conventionally fighting to the core or disintegrating your way in, lowering what the remainder of the system needs to be able to lift?

You mean 130 cubic feet. Which is enough to blast out enough of the ship for the beholder to enter and screw your ship over from the inside. And I prefer propellors driven by multiple steam engines to balloons. Unless said balloons are kirovs.

golentan
2009-12-13, 09:18 PM
You mean 130 cubic feet. Which is enough to blast out enough of the ship for the beholder to enter and screw your ship over from the inside. And I prefer propellors driven by multiple steam engines to balloons. Unless said balloons are kirovs.

No, I mean 10 cubic feet. That's all disintegrate does, and it isn't based on caster level. Damage does vs. animate foes, but not the other stuff.

Are there rules for steamcopters?

Doomboy911
2009-12-13, 10:09 PM
You know the whole debate concerning owls is a bit off sure its speaking of magic creatures.But with a large creature with both melee and magic were to attack the ship like a dragon he'd have a massive advantage against the ship wouldn't it.

golentan
2009-12-13, 10:25 PM
You know the whole debate concerning owls is a bit off sure its speaking of magic creatures.But with a large creature with both melee and magic were to attack the ship like a dragon he'd have a massive advantage against the ship wouldn't it.

Again. Skeletal. Dragons. Ability to fly, DR Piercing, lightweight (thus easy to carry), no loyalty issues, large number of attacks, variable size allows multipurpose use, not as smelly as zombies, 25 GP/hitdie, and ability to mess up the crew in general if not mid-high level characters specifically.

Edit: Doh, just remembered that skeleton flight only works for magical flight. Maybe you could convince your DM to fix this with some cloth, or find some other "fighter" analogue.

hamishspence
2009-12-14, 03:54 AM
Dragon Skeletons (MM) and Skeletal dragons (Draconomicon) can't fly.

But Bone Dragons (Book of Vile Darkness) can. Bone dragons are harder to create though- and intelligent.

Johel
2009-12-14, 05:39 AM
If you aren't deploying them from airships, utility is minimized. They can be outrun by most airships easily, particularly with harriers. Invisibility helps against this, but if you are deploying from land they can be easily outmaneuvered. Not to mention the obvious countermeasures at this point. Screw firing at the owns in war, by the time they reach you you can reach the land. Cue alchemist fire and flaming arrows. Trees? Fields? Thatch? Not anymore.

@Ignore the owls :
...You want to risk a Airship over an enemy kingdom to burn a few fields, villages and forests, then be brought down by an enemy you've let close the distance ?

A Airship costs at least 150.000 gp
While a house is priced at 1.000 gp in the SRD, I doubt the sole target of a raid would be to destroy a small village near the border if a group of mounted raiders could do the same. Even bombing a city wouldn't justify the loss of such an asset.

@Outrun the owls :
Doable, if they are still getting altitude when you arrive.

Given the investment they are, Owl Riders would likely be deployed in strategical cities/castles (though the utility of castles in D&D is another question...) near the border but not close enough so that, when a threat is spotted, they have time to go forward to meet it, rather than running after it.

Again, their role is to intercept.
A mere peasant can spot an Airship easily from the ground (unless it's a really cloudy day, in which case I guess the Airship would have to fly at low altitude anyway to hit its target). A watch tower can do the same and from then, a few light signals and Owl Riders take off, simply following the light in the direction of the Airship.

@outmaneuver the owls:

Ok, this is getting nowhere without a situation.
Let's consider the following tactic :
As soon as a watch tower spot an unknown airship, it lit lanterns, use magic lights, whatever can send a signal quickly over a large distance with minimum cost and technology/magic.

In the following minutes, the network of watchtowers that dot the country relay the informations to the nearest "airbase" (you get the idea...) from which a Owl Rider take off.

Now, I'll go for the "Lone, Invisible Rider with summoning wand" option, if you don't mind, as it's the most efficient.

Pilot being a very specialized job, it requires a very special training. Our lone rider is a 3rd level Expert, with Ride, Handle Animal, Use Magic Device, Spot, Spellcraft as class skills. He got 5 in all of them. He got Mounted Combat and Talent : Use Magic Device as feats.

This gives him +8 to his UMD check, making sure he got at least 45% chances to activate the wands. This also gives him +5 on his Ride skills, which allow him to shrug of about half of the attacks that could hit him while also allowing him some "creativity" while on saddle.

The rider first take altitude until he can have a good view of the countryside and the network of watchtowers. He simply follow the ones that are "switched on" and eventually, he spot the Airship. From there, he position himself to be on ship's path. Since he is a Large target while the airship is likely a Colossal one, he'll spot the ship long before the ship can spot him.

Our lone rider is well-trained : he knows more or less when he'll be at 2.200 feet from his target and is instructed to cast "Invisibility" from his wand at that moment, giving him 3 rounds to try again if he fails to activate the wand.

Once invisibility is on, no weapon of the ship matter. Also, the ship can't possibly spot him now, so it can't intentionally outmaneuver him and, given the distance, any attempt to play on angle and speed won't work, since the tactical maneuverability of the owl is likely better than the airship's.

30 rounds and the rider is above the Airship. From there, he can even just land on a high spot if he wish to. He will just use his invisibility wand once more, just to be sure, giving him and his mount 50 rounds of invisibility.

Then he starts summoning 1d3 huge fiendish centipedes on the deck per round. These monsters are only CR 3 but have a DR 10 that will protect them from most arrows. They are immune to most mental effects and even have a spell resistance of 11. Use of fire on the ship is unlikely.

After 50 rounds, the deck should be cleared, what about the 14 Huge-sized centipedes that were on it at any given time. The rider casts invisibility for a third time on him and his mount, then make an inspection of the deck. Likely, the survivors will run around to help the wounded and there's a tiny risk to be spotted.

From there, the rider sneaks (invisible) to the engine room and use something to blast it. He take off and get away from the ship asap. Alternatively, he can just make sure the Airship will have to land, either because of technical difficulties or because of a lack of crewmen to man it properly.

Doomboy911
2009-12-14, 07:11 AM
But what if the airship was made so every part of the hull would float no matter if another part failed. Like levitate all the boards than nailing them together.In a fight should part of the ship get destroyed it could remain airborne.

Johel
2009-12-14, 07:42 AM
But what if the airship was made so every part of the hull would float no matter if another part failed. Like levitate all the boards than nailing them together.In a fight should part of the ship get destroyed it could remain airborne.

...well, if a ship can remain airborn without a crew and not drift too much, then it's even easier : you kill everyone, don't bother with the engine and go back to your ground base to report "mission accomplished".

Next thing you know, people are ridding flying mounts and landing on the crewless airship to man it. Most airship have a crew of what ? 30 ? 40 ? I think the dwarf stone ship was an exception with about 200 but it was also bloody expansive.

Anyway, that's nothing that 50 x 1d3 huge centipedes can't take care of, what with the magic missiles to finish the job.

Triaxx
2009-12-14, 09:51 AM
AMF doesn't affect the crystals. They feed on ambient magic, including active spells, including the AMF. I guess that needs to be added to the description.

Barbarian MD
2009-12-14, 03:22 PM
I'm participating in a sandbox game, and was given 500,000 gp to spend on whatever the heck I wanted, so long as it wasn't a personal item.

So I built a stronghold (Stronghold Builder's Guide).

Made of obdurium.

That flies.

:smallbiggrin:

Doomboy911
2009-12-14, 05:24 PM
Well I still believe the best route is just a flying piece of plywood you'd be next to impossible to detect and should someone attack just stop casting whatever is pushing the board up and descend towards the ground.

Worira
2009-12-14, 05:25 PM
Uh, or you could just cast overland flight. What's the plywood for, anyway?

Doomboy911
2009-12-14, 05:43 PM
Uh, or you could just cast overland flight. What's the plywood for, anyway?
For looking awesome also if you cast permanent levitate its a one time spell and if you have a wind staff you can propel it.

Johel
2009-12-14, 06:24 PM
For looking awesome also if you cast permanent levitate its a one time spell and if you have a wind staff you can propel it.

Carpet of Flying is your friend.
Size 5 ft. by 5 ft.
Capacity 200 lb.
Speed 40 ft.
Weight 8 lb.
Market Price 20,000 gp

Now, look awesome. You can even take a nap and let cruise through the sky. Or you can simply levitate and hover

Volkov
2009-12-14, 07:17 PM
Has anyone recommended making the ship out of Adamantine, Mithril, or Titanium yet? Or better yet, an adamantine, mithril, titanium alloy? Also, rockets would be a nice weapon to have, they are destructive, long ranged, lightweight, cheap as dirt, but have the problem of piss-poor accuracy if you don't take the time to add stabilizing fins to them, which greatly improves upon it. But that's what firing in volume is meant to fix, and yes they would exist in a medieval setting, rockets are a pretty old invention.

Doomboy911
2009-12-15, 03:08 PM
Carpet of flying sounds cool still imagine if I could get a rug of flying. Also is there anything like a rockets in the game?.

Johel
2009-12-15, 03:12 PM
Carpet of flying sounds cool still imagine if I could get a rug of flying. Also is there anything like a rockets in the game?.

...Not so much as a rocket but you can get a violent take off using a decanter of endless water. Just strap it on your back, activate at full pressure while sitting on a stone wall. If physics work like IRL, you should be ejected a few meters in the air before going SPLAT as your momentum is lost.

golentan
2009-12-15, 03:22 PM
Has anyone recommended making the ship out of Adamantine, Mithril, or Titanium yet? Or better yet, an adamantine, mithril, titanium alloy? Also, rockets would be a nice weapon to have, they are destructive, long ranged, lightweight, cheap as dirt, but have the problem of piss-poor accuracy if you don't take the time to add stabilizing fins to them, which greatly improves upon it. But that's what firing in volume is meant to fix, and yes they would exist in a medieval setting, rockets are a pretty old invention.

Thanks, now I have the image of a Medieval Missile Massacre (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacrossMissileMassacre) stuck in my head.

I believe there's an Ironclad in Stormwrack. If you modified the hardness (mithril/adamantium) and used it as your base ship that should give you a pretty tough cookie of a vessel.

Doomboy911
2009-12-15, 06:02 PM
Well actually I was asking about the last guy who mentioned getting rockets for a weapon. Sure getting on one would be awesome but if it came down to it I'd just get the druid of the group to wild shape into a dragon and fly us .

D Knight
2009-12-15, 06:16 PM
u know if your want to strike true fear into the hearts of your foe the undead dragon would work well.
1) animated a dragon skeleton
2) cover in soar wood with spell shape wood(now it can fly)
3) if you want it to "breath" fire put alchemist fire under pressure coming out its mouth, just cast ironwood on the wood around the mouth to protect it.
4) profit

if your DM wants to argue about the soar wood cover call it armor instead and then s/he can not complain

Volkov
2009-12-15, 06:46 PM
Carpet of flying sounds cool still imagine if I could get a rug of flying. Also is there anything like a rockets in the game?.
Homebrew it, it should do as much damage as an ranged weapon of similar size+3 for it's added speed and it should have greater range, and if it's explosive, it should do four times as much damage. For example a rocket of ballistae bolt size should do 3d6+3, while an exploding one should deal 12d6+12 damage.

golentan
2009-12-15, 07:55 PM
u know if your want to strike true fear into the hearts of your foe the undead dragon would work well.
1) animated a dragon skeleton
2) cover in soar wood with spell shape wood(now it can fly)
3) if you want it to "breath" fire put alchemist fire under pressure coming out its mouth, just cast ironwood on the wood around the mouth to protect it.
4) profit

if your DM wants to argue about the soar wood cover call it armor instead and then s/he can not complain

I think at that point an Effigy is easier. At which point we can template stack it.

We definitely want something mindless, and nasty and big enough to tear up mooks/deliver bombs. I think if sticking cloth on the dragon's wings isn't enough to return flight to a skeleton, then our best bet is probably a cluster of Air Necromentals. They can scythe through living foes, have a 100 ft. perfect maneuverability, and are again multisizable.

Barbarian MD
2009-12-15, 10:48 PM
In answer to Volkov's question:

I'll say it again: Obdurium.

Hardness 30, which means it will almost always make it's save (add hardness to fortitude saves) against disintegrate, and it's pretty much indestructible against normal siege machinery (hardness is DR for objects, for anyone wondering).

I have a flying stronghold made of obdurium and win, but mostly obdurium.

Doomboy911
2009-12-16, 03:24 PM
For weapons though I say tie a bunch of ropes onto the airship then have bombs on the end of the ropes. That way if you want to take out a build, just go down a bit. Or as a more logical alternative light the ropes that will set off the bombs.

Doomboy911
2009-12-17, 03:56 PM
Well I'd never thought a simple thread like this would get to four pages.

Jastermereel
2009-12-18, 09:32 AM
If this is just to meet the Own-a-10K-boat prerequisite for the prestige class, why not either:

Get a rowboat, make it gold-plated (should justify the 10K price) and add wheels. Sure some might call it a wagon, but you'll know better).

Get a small (toy size) metal boat, attach it to a chain and a stick, and find some good +3 enchantment (18K, no?) for your new Boat-Mace. :smallbiggrin:

Volkov
2009-12-18, 10:42 AM
For weapons though I say tie a bunch of ropes onto the airship then have bombs on the end of the ropes. That way if you want to take out a build, just go down a bit. Or as a more logical alternative light the ropes that will set off the bombs.

My rockets are far better than that Idea.

Triaxx
2009-12-18, 11:52 AM
Rockets with animate object. Give them the sole purpose of hitting the enemy ship. Instant guided munitions.

Zom B
2009-12-18, 12:17 PM
I can become a dread pirate and have a ship plus the hilarity of hopping in the ship and only traveling a couple of feet that we could've walked is just funny.

I'm imagining this dramatic Hollywood scene of you hopping aboard the vessel, then a closeup of you with the sunset at your back and wind whipping your hair back as dramatic orchestral music plays, and then you hop right back off the ship.