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View Full Version : Proactive vs. Reactive Initiative Rolls [4e & 3x]



DabblerWizard
2009-12-12, 05:14 PM
I was thinking about initiative rolls and their mechanical and role play ramifications. I stumbled upon a way to differentiate between types of initiative rolls.

I would appreciate any comments the Playground has concerning this topic.

What is initiative for?

Initiative rolls (IR) are meant to signal the start of combat. It's the DM's job to ask players to roll for initiative. Yet it's not necessarily a DM's job alone, to decide when a combat situation actually comes about.

When should initiative be rolled?

My sense is that, IR come about when some character (either PC or NPC) decides to make a threatening gesture, such as pulling out a sword, or saying something like "Let's end this now!"... etc.

What happens when initiative is rolled?

Even among my role play heavy group, whenever I call initiative, it's as though the players' characters have their mouths duct taped shut. People suddenly stop talking, and act as though it's a forgone conclusion that combat has to take place.

I don't think this is especially reasonable, or necessary. Even when swords are drawn, a few well placed words among sentient beings can halt, or at least forestall battle. Among my friends, who have created characters that don't care to just randomly slaughter other beings, this point is especially meaningful. This kind of simulationism can be achieved through a change in how players and DMs understand the initiative roll mechanic.

Reactive (or passive) Initiative Rolls
Players wait for the DM to create a situation where combat will take place: A monster jumps out of the shadows, thugs threaten to flay players, a general yells out "charge!"

In all of these kinds of cases, players have to react to the DM's will. Even if they are in the middle of a heated argument with a duchess, once the DM tells the players to roll for initiative, it would appear that all bets are off, the conversation is over.

Sometimes, this kind of state is appropriate, and the players can't expect to control every situation.

Other times though, there's another way to think about initiative.

Proactive (or active) Initiative Rolls
The DM is still the one calling for initiative, but the players have a chance to direct the story, and have a say in whether combat will take place: A player makes a threatening remark, a player fires an arrow, a king tells his guards to seize the players but the cleric pc (maybe through a diplomacy check) asks the king to have patience.

In this scenario, players are more in control of their own story. They feel that they aren't just leaves in the wind, but do in fact have the potential to change a seemingly predetermined situation.

Except in the case of players who receive the most enjoyment from sitting back and enjoying a story, players will feel in control of how a story unfolds (by having a chance to effect whether combat takes place) and this will make them happy.

Making players happy is a good goal to have.

The Bottom Line

Players can enjoy a gaming table more, if they can effect whether combat will take place.

PCs that take initiative as a forgone conclusion leading to battle, and wait for the DM to decide the fate of any given PC-NPC interaction, won't enjoy the story as much, as PCs that don't duct tape their character's mouth just because a Queen is having a hissy fit.

Asheram
2009-12-12, 05:25 PM
.... I'm not getting it.

You're arguing about players taking no other option than fighting once you have someone charging them?

DabblerWizard
2009-12-12, 05:40 PM
.... I'm not getting it.

You're arguing about players taking no other option than fighting once you have someone charging them?

Not exactly. I'm talking about how players think about initiative rolls. Sometimes they can't control a situation, and have to battle whatever beastie jumps out at them. That's to be expected.

The problem comes in, when they think they have to battle even when they don't... even when they have the potential to avoid a battle, if that's what they decide they want to do. It's hard to reason with a mindless golem, but they can still try to reason with a humanoid, for instance, even when his sword is out.

Having players be proactive about initiative, is just a way to get them to feel more in control of the story.

Storm Bringer
2009-12-12, 05:50 PM
his arguement is that once Initiative has been called, people sort of change mental gear, form 'RP' to 'combat', and stop trying to prevent a fight.

I think his problem is when he percieves Initiative being rolled in game time. I, personally, see the Initiative 'roll' happening not as the first sword is dwarn, but as the first blow is struck, i.e. when someone makes a clearly hostile act intending to cause harm, and after diplomacy has failed.

an example would help us. i think:

two gunslingers are facing off in the wild west, hands hovering over triggers

they pull thier guns and level them, but neither shoots. the situation is tense, and can move into violence in an instant, but it could defuse. DabblerWizard, form what i can glean form his post, would put his Initiative roll here, before anyone attempts an attack and while the potentail to back off exsists.


one of the gunmen summons the guts to pull his trigger. I'd put the Initiative roll here, when the situation is past recovery and all that is left is to see if the target is quicker off the mark than his foe.


I think it's a nice idea, but i'd argue that if people are seeing Initiative rolls as a point of no return, then don't call for them until the situation is past the point of no return.

Asheram
2009-12-12, 05:57 PM
Not exactly. I'm talking about how players think about initiative rolls. Sometimes they can't control a situation, and have to battle whatever beastie jumps out at them. That's to be expected.

The problem comes in, when they think they have to battle even when they don't... even when they have the potential to avoid a battle, if that's what they decide they want to do. It's hard to reason with a mindless golem, but they can still try to reason with a humanoid, for instance, even when his sword is out.

Having players be proactive about initiative, is just a way to get them to feel more in control of the story.

Oh, agreed. But I found that it's somewhat due to DM conditioning;

The quite repetetive encounters.
The feel of might that comes with being heroes and generally better than anyone else.

The problem is that there aren't many things to do:

There's the attack.
There's the skillcheck/Rp moment; Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate.
Tactical withdrawal.
Flee.


Now, in most cases, the skillcheck won't work, since many encounters are monsters, and ambushes are often made in the consensus of the ambushing group that they have the advantage.

Personally, I'd Love to see the skillcheck used more regularly, but the few times it's used, it's most often quite ineffective. Most of the groups I'm in have a very good memory of things they've done that doesn't work.

lesser_minion
2009-12-12, 06:12 PM
Exalted actually has something similar to what you're suggesting - characters elect when they join battle, and if they choose not to then they become scenery for the purposes of combat.

I like the idea, although because of the way Exalted works, you can't really diplomance people into stopping a fight once swords are drawn.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-12, 06:16 PM
Exalted actually has something similar to what you're suggesting - characters elect when they join battle, and if they choose not to then they become scenery for the purposes of combat.

I like the idea, although because of the way Exalted works, you can't really diplomance people into stopping a fight once swords are drawn.

That's interesting. Though I think I would prefer to let players decide what to do with a hostile situation, as opposed to just adding another mechanic.

Plus, diplomancing one's way out of battle is always a valid option, not that it'll always work.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-12, 06:27 PM
his arguement is that once Initiative has been called, people sort of change mental gear, form 'RP' to 'combat', and stop trying to prevent a fight.

I think his problem is when he percieves Initiative being rolled in game time. I, personally, see the Initiative 'roll' happening not as the first sword is dwarn, but as the first blow is struck, i.e. when someone makes a clearly hostile act intending to cause harm, and after diplomacy has failed.

...

DabblerWizard, form what i can glean form his post, would put his Initiative roll here, before anyone attempts an attack and while the potentail to back off exsists.

one of the gunmen summons the guts to pull his trigger. I'd put the Initiative roll here, when the situation is past recovery and all that is left is to see if the target is quicker off the mark than his foe.

I think it's a nice idea, but i'd argue that if people are seeing Initiative rolls as a point of no return, then don't call for them until the situation is past the point of no return.


I think you're right Storm Bringer. It might be best to roll initiative once it is obvious that combat is inevitable. I've seen other DMs jump the gun a bit, and that's annoying.

Rolling for it earlier, though, when things are hostile but not yet physically violent, isn't necessarily a bad idea, if players know they can still bring the battle to an end without necessarily killing all the enemies.

For example: A drunken commoner takes a swing at a player, and hits. Initiative can be rolled here, obviously, because a threatening gesture has made it obvious that at least one person is ready to fight. But it doesn't mean that combat is inevitable, or that it can't be stopped from this point on.

Dairun Cates
2009-12-12, 06:59 PM
I like the idea, although because of the way Exalted works, you can't really diplomance people into stopping a fight once swords are drawn.

I think what you meant to say is that most players won't care to TRY diplomacy when nothing short of dropping them in an active volcano with 3 fire gods in it will actually kill them (unless they're fire resistant. Then summon the Tarras- I mean, the Kukla).

There's a lot of stupid diplomacy charms in exalted that can work even in battle.