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mage1337
2009-12-12, 06:25 PM
Hey gang,

I'm wondering if there is a way to exploit save penalties granted by class features and feats in 4E to basically create "unsavable" effects on monsters. Ideally, the save penalty would reach around -15 (so that even monsters with a reasonably +5 bonus could't make their saves), and the build would come with at least one "force a save re-roll" feature for extra reliability.

Does anyone know of a way to make such a build on a single character? Across multiple characters?

I'm particularly interested in using the Entrancing Mystic paragon path for Warlocks from Arcane Power as a starting point, as it gives a -5 save at only 11th level.

Let me know your thoughts!

Gralamin
2009-12-12, 06:32 PM
Hey gang,

I'm wondering if there is a way to exploit save penalties granted by class features and feats in 4E to basically create "unsavable" effects on monsters. Ideally, the save penalty would reach around -15 (so that even monsters with a reasonably +5 bonus could't make their saves), and the build would come with at least one "force a save re-roll" feature for extra reliability.

Does anyone know of a way to make such a build on a single character? Across multiple characters?

I'm particularly interested in using the Entrancing Mystic paragon path for Warlocks from Arcane Power as a starting point, as it gives a -5 save at only 11th level.

Let me know your thoughts!

Well, before November updates, this was easy. Now, it takes a bit more work, but is still do able.
The Trick is a the Orb of Imposition Wizard, High Wis (18 to start +8 from stat ups = 26 = +8), Go into Wizard of the Spiral Tower, Use a cunning weapon (-2 to -4 to saves). At epic, this can get you -12 to -13 at saves. All you need is another item to push you just a bit over.

Edit: You also want a -16. A -15 would still let a solo save on a 20. (DC 10 - 5 save bonus + 15 Save penalty = DC 20)

Edit2: The all important November Updates (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateNov2009.pdf) for this question.

rayne_dragon
2009-12-12, 09:34 PM
Make said wizard an illusionist and use the illusionist's gloves with phantom echoes. This nets you an extra -2 to saves when you hit with an illusion with combat advantage, which you'll have if you hit the target with a psychic attack the round before.

Orb of Ultimate Impostion makes it easier to lock down solos, too bad it takes a daily magic item use.

Gralamin
2009-12-12, 09:38 PM
Make said wizard an illusionist and use the illusionist's gloves with phantom echoes. This nets you an extra -2 to saves when you hit with an illusion with combat advantage, which you'll have if you hit the target with a psychic attack the round before.

Orb of Ultimate Impostion makes it easier to lock down solos, too bad it takes a daily magic item use.

Ultimate Imposition is a mere -2 penalty now. Cunning Weapon is much better.

cupkeyk
2009-12-12, 09:43 PM
the internet ate my post. T_T

short version:
cunning weapon+4(via arcane implement proficiency)
orb of imposition +1
phrenic crown level 17
spider familiar
warlock mc entrancing mystic pp within 3 sq.
spell focus
sleep/face of death
winter sovereign

unfortunately wiz's don't get a lot of charm spells, but neither do warlocks. lolz

get the mc powerswap feat for passionate betreyal.

Gralamin
2009-12-12, 09:53 PM
the internet ate my post. T_T

short version:
cunning weapon+4(via arcane implement proficiency)
orb of imposition +1
Abusing poorly worded abilities, I see.

phrenic crown level 17
Only works on the first save now

spider familiar
warlock mc entrancing mystic pp within 3 sq.

Forces you to stay pretty close, not always ideal, especially if they have an aura.

spell focus
I always forget that feat.

sleep/face of death
Good choices

winter sovereign
Cold powers? Ewwww :smalltongue:. I prefer Magister for 1 round imprisonment.

Lots of things I forgot though.

cupkeyk
2009-12-12, 09:56 PM
nope, you can add the cold keyword to sleep and face of death with winter sovereign. phrenic still works since the two spells noted have a on a first save thing going on.

Gralamin
2009-12-12, 10:03 PM
nope, you can add the cold keyword to sleep and face of death with winter sovereign. phrenic still works since the two spells noted have a on a first save thing going on.

I know that, doesn't mean I have to like it :smalltongue:. And Phrenic only works on the first save - so for sleep, it makes sure they are unconscious for one round, but doesn't help keep them that way for a long time. I suppose it might be long enough, though.