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Ryumaru
2009-12-12, 06:54 PM
Now, I'm going to be honest; I'd like to make something interesting, -and- somewhat powerful and varied. I'm not the best (to put it lightly) at figuring out what constitutes an effective character, and with the hundreds of base classes and prestige classes on display, and my mind starts to wander after skimming three or four books.

As it's a solo game, I'm hoping for someone capable, but believable, if you can say so in a world where you can conjure gold by playing with bat crap. I like to spread out my skills, mix it up with melee and ranged, and otherwise do enjoy some flashness. I also like doing social and skill challenges outside of combat.

I've checked Factotum, and not too keen on the inspiration point mechanic. And I'm not looking for something that'll break the game or... something completely over the place ('Just take Master of Rawr2/Order of the Cuddle Initiate2/Incantrix4/Dragon Eater2 and then dip into Rolling Kitten3'). If no-one feels like helping with that, a simple line or two maybe of a concept to help jog the creativity would be much appreciated.

Stats-wise, I'm working with a decent spread; 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 13

-Hopes he isn't repeating himself too much, or asking too much x.x-

Amador
2009-12-12, 06:59 PM
powerful, interesting and varied... You want a druid.

Boci
2009-12-12, 07:04 PM
Using gestalt would make this easier. Without that, at a high enough starting level wizard (abjurer) 5 / Incantrix 10 / wizard (abjurer) 5 can prepare for a variety of threats. Chameleon is also quite a versatile PrC I've heard, and I've always liked the swordsage from ToB. What is it about the inspiration points you do not like?

Wizard build:
Strength: 15, Dexterity: 16, Constitution: 18, Inteligence: 18, Wisdom: 13, Charisma: 14

Chameleon:
Not very familiar with the class

Swordsage:
Strength: 15, Dexterity: Constitution: 16, Inteligence: 14, Wisdom: 18, Charisma: 13

Roc Ness
2009-12-12, 07:05 PM
I would suggest Ranger 2/Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 5/A nice PRC that progress BAB and decently progresses Sorc Spellcasting. Swiftblade or eldritch knight, maybe?

I think that might cover everything. Decent skills with High Int (you can spare that) and ranger, decent social skills with High Cha, Decent BAB and HP for melee, rapid shot for a bit of ranged, take the Arcane Strike feat for even greater Martial and Ranged might. If you don't want spells then don't use them, just burn the slots to empower your attacks. You even get quite a nice AC from Abjurant Champion Shield spell.

And just to annoy enemy spellcasters, ready a swift action every round to use dispel magic to counterspell.

Stats would be something like 14 Str, 18 Dex, 15 Con, 16 Int, 13 Wis, 18 Cha


I hope that wasn't too over the place... :smallredface:

Teeka
2009-12-12, 07:07 PM
Alright, what sort of character have you always wanted to play? Because in a solo game you can do it and go totally wild.

Ryumaru
2009-12-12, 07:08 PM
Oh, forgot to mention that; it is gestalt. Only cravate being not double-sided casting; at least, not if it's anything loophole or gamebreaky.

Ryumaru
2009-12-12, 08:09 PM
Alright, what sort of character have you always wanted to play? Because in a solo game you can do it and go totally wild.

I'm... not totally sure, to be honest. I was kind of tempted to put Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter on one side, and something on the other. I had pondered Warmage, up until I figured out... they're not even -warmages-. Artillarymages? Sure. But Warmages? I at least expected Mage Armour, Shield, and some things like Blur and Magic Weapon.

Edit: Before I sleep for the night, found out what I'm allowed; as far as I know, I'm allowed core and the Complete series.

Ernir
2009-12-12, 08:46 PM
I'm... not totally sure, to be honest. I was kind of tempted to put Ranger/Scout with Swift Hunter on one side, and something on the other. I had pondered Warmage, up until I figured out... they're not even -warmages-. Artillarymages? Sure. But Warmages? I at least expected Mage Armour, Shield, and some things like Blur and Magic Weapon.

Edit: Before I sleep for the night, found out what I'm allowed; as far as I know, I'm allowed core and the Complete series.
How about just a Wizard or Sorcerer instead of the Warmage? You have to be a one-man army, you need more than just the bazooka. =/

Depending on how your DM treats precision damage dice progressions, something like
Scout/Ranger//Wizard/Unseen Seer
could work. Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage, and easy to qualify for with this kind of a gestalt. You can make up the non-divination CL loss with the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane).

Remember to skirmish when you shoot Rays. :smalltongue:

fryplink
2009-12-12, 09:04 PM
how much social interaction are you looking at?

in a campaign with alot of social interaction a bard/sublime chord is alot of fun (sublime chord is comp arcane right?) and can hit EVERY spellcasting base to a certain degree (and UMD for those he cant)

but if you have very little social stuff a bard/sublime chord end up playing like a scorcerer

Bards are pretty fun in social heavy campaigns because of all the weird options you have, but w/o a big social aspect they fall behind

yea i understand bards arent a good class, but i always have fun playing them, and thats the important part right? if we really wanted something really good, tell him to play a cleric (or druid)

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 05:08 AM
How about just a Wizard or Sorcerer instead of the Warmage? You have to be a one-man army, you need more than just the bazooka. =/

Depending on how your DM treats precision damage dice progressions, something like
Scout/Ranger//Wizard/Unseen Seer
could work. Unseen Seer is in Complete Mage, and easy to qualify for with this kind of a gestalt. You can make up the non-divination CL loss with the Practiced Spellcaster feat (Complete Arcane).

Remember to skirmish when you shoot Rays.

Possibly... what does Unseen Seer do? If it's just divination, then I'd probably skip it and go full Wizard.


how much social interaction are you looking at?

in a campaign with alot of social interaction a bard/sublime chord is alot of fun (sublime chord is comp arcane right?) and can hit EVERY spellcasting base to a certain degree (and UMD for those he cant)

but if you have very little social stuff a bard/sublime chord end up playing like a scorcerer

Bards are pretty fun in social heavy campaigns because of all the weird options you have, but w/o a big social aspect they fall behind

yea i understand bards arent a good class, but i always have fun playing them, and thats the important part right? if we really wanted something really good, tell him to play a cleric (or druid)

I do plan on hopefully getting a decent amount of social/out of combat stuff, but probably not enough for a Bard. Considering I have no party members to sing for...

Keld Denar
2009-12-13, 05:42 AM
Unseen Seer is AMAZING. Its in Complete Mage. It does a couple things. 1, it advances Sneak Attack or Skirmish, if you have it, which you will. 2, it gives you access to Divinations from ANY spell list. Cleric list? Divine Insight! Ranger list? Hunter's Eye. Thats the best part. There are a few other abilities, but really, getting Hunter's Eye on your wizard spell list is enough to make it WAY worth it. Go look up Hunter's Eye in the Spell Compendium. Then note that its only a 2nd level spell, and thus rather easily Persisted for an extra 7-8d6 damage all the time.

Combine with the Swift Hunter ability to apply precision damage to your favored enemies, and you'll have a boatload of d6s that will work effectively against anyone. You'd have Trapfinding, decent skills, full wizard casting, and a bunch of other stuff.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 06:04 AM
Hmm, interesting... I'm not very knowledgable on spells/their locations, or if Spell Compendium is even allowed, but I'll give them a look. Divine Insight?

Edit: Looking for Hunter's Eye in Spell Compendium, but not seeing it...

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-13, 06:18 AM
I'm hoping for someone capable, but believable, if you can say so in a world where you can conjure gold by playing with bat crap.

Best. Wizard. Definition. Ever.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 06:45 AM
What is it about the inspiration points you do not like?

Thought I'd reply to this quick; my main problem with it was having to spend them to do next to anything with the class. I understand it's balance, and I could see it working in a group game, but from a skim, it seemed like you'd be able to do maybe two or three decent sneak attacks at 20ish, and that's it, you're out of special abilities.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 06:59 AM
Hmm, interesting... I'm not very knowledgable on spells/their locations, or if Spell Compendium is even allowed, but I'll give them a look. Divine Insight?

Edit: Looking for Hunter's Eye in Spell Compendium, but not seeing it...

It's PHBII.

olentu
2009-12-13, 07:00 AM
Hmm, interesting... I'm not very knowledgable on spells/their locations, or if Spell Compendium is even allowed, but I'll give them a look. Divine Insight?

Edit: Looking for Hunter's Eye in Spell Compendium, but not seeing it...

Try the PHB2.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-13, 08:38 AM
For a versatile gestalt character, I'll usually go for (full BAB)//(full spellcasting), making sure at least one side gets a lot of skill points/level. For example, Ranger goes well with most low-skill, low-HP spellcasting classes like Wizard, Sorcerer, and Dread Necromancer. Cloistered Cleric goes well with any full BAB class that doesn't get many skill points/level or a good Will save.

Dread Necromancer makes an excellent solo character, provided you can get some decent undead minions to run around with you. At least solo you won't have to worry about your Ghostly Visage paralyzing your party. Make him a Necropolitan or get Tomb-Tainted Soul and you'll be able to heal yourself to full for free between encounters. If you get Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) and gestalt with another spellcasting class like Ranger you'll be able to spend Dread Necro spell slots to spontaneously cast anything on the other class's list, plus you'll get early access to the next level of Dread Necro spells.

I ran a gestalt game a while back that had started as a solo game. The original protagonist was a Crusader//Warmage who went into Phoenix Servant, an adaptation of Rainbow Servant. He took Warmage at the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th PrC levels where it wouldn't have advanced his spellcasting, and took Crusader at the levels where it did. The character took Dreadful Wrath (PGtF) and put max ranks in Intimidate with the Never Outnumbered skill trick from CS and Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark, and that combination alone really pulled him out of some tough spots. He had a lot of fun with the character, and I had a lot of fun running that game.

If you're not going to have a bunch of redshirts NPCs helping you out, you should definitely get Leadership and probably also consider Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and even Obtain/Improved Familiar.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 12:52 PM
Mm, trying to avoid the 'I summon tons of minions' deal, and go for a generally powerful character; see next to every shounen anime with a pretty-boy lead in existance. ;D

Started to narrow it down a bit. Possibly Cleric//Wizard (if allowed), the aforementioned Scout/Ranger//Wizard, or potentially some class from Tome of Battle (if allowed)//Wizard or Cleric.

My only downside to Scout/Ranger being that I noticed the 30ft range limit which... hardly makes him 'archer extreme while constantly having to fight in point-blank range.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:55 PM
You could try the Eternal Blade Archer shell then; basically Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10 with Weapon Focus > Ranged Weapon Mastery, Rapid Shot, Knowledge Devotion (great with Eternal Knowledge), Woodland Archer and the few ToB maneuvers that work with archery. Solid ranged type with some melee ability.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 01:00 PM
Ah, so there are -some- archery based manuevers in Tome of Battle? Perfect. I don't want too many, want to split them evenly across melee and archery for a typical 'wandering hero' deal. Which schools/abilities in particular?

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 01:26 PM
Ah, so there are -some- archery based manuevers in Tome of Battle? Perfect. I don't want too many, want to split them evenly across melee and archery for a typical 'wandering hero' deal. Which schools/abilities in particular?

Tiger Claw has 2 maneuvers that can be used with ranged attacks; Dancing Mongoose and Raging Mongoose. Diamond Mind has one (Time Stands Still). They're all pretty high-level so so with basic attacks on lower levels and use your maneuvers to cover your other bases and to work out your melee.

White Raven is a good third school so you can use your ally-improving maneuvers when you're near allies, but not near enemies. It also has few good attacks. Iron Heart has at least Iron Heart Surge and Wall of Blades which I really like; worth considering.


So yeah, I suggest you main Tiger Claw (it's not a school for Eternal Blade so you gotta either Feat or Item the two maneuvers from the school you want; main it as Warblade to make the prerequisites) and Diamond Mind (it's amazing school anyways) with some White Raven and Iron Heart.

I statted up a level 20 version (modified a bit to function better vs. casters; most notably Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment) here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4439795&postcount=209); check the maneuvers out and note how you can use Eternal Training to get the melee maneuver you need when you need it.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 01:32 PM
Eh, both sound like they're made for dual-wielding and throwing, which is not what I'm looking for. -Is looking for archery, not throwing knives- I already hate rolling four attacks a round, let alone thirteen. And considering it's solo, I'm not really going to have anyone to buff, or any interest in buffing anyone but myself. -Would probably veto Tiger Claw. Doesn't want dual-wielding weak weapons-

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 01:50 PM
Eh, both sound like they're made for dual-wielding and throwing, which is not what I'm looking for. -Is looking for archery, not throwing knives- I already hate rolling four attacks a round, let alone thirteen. And considering it's solo, I'm not really going to have anyone to buff, or any interest in buffing anyone but myself. -Would probably veto Tiger Claw. Doesn't want dual-wielding weak weapons-

There ARE dual wield maneuvers in Tiger Claw, but many maneuvers, including the ones I've suggested, are very solid for two-handers or archers. There's also Rabid Wolf Strike, the Jump-related Strikes and so on in Tiger Claw, none of which are two-hander attacks.

And just because you'd get an additional extra attack when using Mongoose-maneuvers doesn't mean you NEED two weapons to use them; indeed, you actually can gain bigger benefits from extra attack on one big weapon, than two extra attacks on two weaker weapons. The clause is just there so TWFers can use the maneuvers too.


And Time Stands Still...well, it's just awesome. But yeah, all that involves more rolling. It's harder to get numerical bonuses to archery; that's mostly done through feats. ToB does offer means to fire extra arrows though.

Firing a large number of arrows is pretty much the only good way of dealing a lot of damage with a bow at a long range, and ToB helps with that.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 01:57 PM
Hmm... I'll have to give things a look. With some of the manuevers, I'm tempted to take Swordsage/Warblade, and go full out on the martial. One side of huge blowing up places with fire and taking out mooks, and another for heavy on dueling with enemies of worth. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion = <3

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 02:02 PM
Hmm... I'll have to give things a look. With some of the manuevers, I'm tempted to take Swordsage/Warblade, and go full out on the martial. One side of huge blowing up places with fire and taking out mooks, and another for heavy on dueling with enemies of worth. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion = <3

I also wish to point out that Eternal Blade is GOD with Wizard on the other side (what I'm trying to say is that they get great Intelligence-synergies).

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 02:20 PM
Hmmm, interesting... damn you, 3.5, and your hundreds of classes all over the place. x.x And damn you, indecision.

Zaeron
2009-12-13, 03:01 PM
Just so you know, Ryu, I'm currently playing a ninth level Warblade//Wizard in a gestalt game I play - I wield a big-ass greatsword and use the Wizard side as purely a buff machine - Polymorph (well, I use a homebrewed spell similar to polymorph that allows me to keep my shape, my DM and I both disliked the flavor of Polymorph), Wraithstrike, Displacement, Greater Mage Armor, Greater Blink - all amazing spells. The schools I've focused on are Iron Heart, Tiger Claw (this school is a MUST. Leaping Dragon Stance (lv. 3 tiger claw), Sudden Leap (Lv. 1 Tiger Claw boost) and Pouncing Charge (Lv. 5 tiger claw strike) are AMAZING. Also look into Diamond Mind's Ruby Nightmare Strike (Lv. 4) - With power attack and a successful Ruby Nightmare Strike, I'm dealing upward of 60 damage per attack, non-crit. (While I realize this could have been more optimized, with leap attack especially, I intentionally handicapped myself - I'm playing a blind swordsman, and my DM homebrewed several feats that basically give me very short range blindsight, so even with flaws, I'm functioning from a pretty bad position feat-wise.) - I haven't had a chance to actually use Pouncing Charge yet, but combined with Haste and Shock Trooper, I expect fun things to result.

In summary - it's a LOT of fun to play. The only thing I would warn you about is that your AC ends up being VERY low. I am a huge healing sponge for my party - I take easily 100-150 damage in any given fight. Admittedly, we are playing a 5 person gestalt campaign - I'm pretty sure I could take down any CR equivalent enemy in one round.

Glimbur
2009-12-13, 03:08 PM
Beguiler//Warblade?

Zaeron
2009-12-13, 03:22 PM
Beguiler//Warblade?

Warblade has a lot of features that trigger off of INT though.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-13, 03:27 PM
Beguiler is Int-based casting.

How about one side beguiler, the other side Sneak-Attack fighter into Dread Commando.

Full BAB, you use beguiler to go invisible and then sneak attack the hell out of everybody. Starts working at level 4 when you get Blinding Color Surge. Dread commando lets you hide will running and charging, and totally eliminates ACP from mithral full plate. Which is medium armor. Which Beguiler can cast in if you take the battlecaster feat (requires the ability to cast arcane spells in light armor).

So, in the end you'd have great skills, two good saves, full BAB, full +6d6 sneak attack at level 10, which you could make use of basically all the time, and beguiler casting in full armor.

Dread Commando gives you full use of your skills in armor, a +5 to all your initiative checks, full bab, sudden strike, and the ability to hide while moving at no penalty (hide while running or charging at -10).

Zaeron
2009-12-13, 03:31 PM
Beguiler is Int-based casting.

Wait, seriously? Why do I ALWAYS think it's CHA? I'm dumb. In that case, the only thing I'd note is that I think you'd lose a lot of the self-buffing potential. You'd be awesome in social situations though, and properly statted, I think the Warblade would be alright without buffs.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 03:32 PM
In summary - it's a LOT of fun to play. The only thing I would warn you about is that your AC ends up being VERY low. I am a huge healing sponge for my party - I take easily 100-150 damage in any given fight. Admittedly, we are playing a 5 person gestalt campaign - I'm pretty sure I could take down any CR equivalent enemy in one round.

Sounds interesting. =D


Beguiler//Warblade?

Hate it. Subtle magic bores me to tears; I'm looking for fireballs, tearing souls out of people and melting them with a wave of my hand. =3

Another idea I've been playing around with was potentially a dip into Arcane Archer; is the Imbue Arrow worth it? I do like the idea of effectively playing an artillary kind of archer. Slap Fireball on it, shooting it in a high-arc into a formation, and watching it explode. Or lodging ray of enervation bolts into a dragons chest, and watching him weaken.

Only thing to round that out would be something to do the same with melee... Duskblade has a far too restrictive list for my liking, and Spellblade (other than blowing) only has it a couple of times a day.

-Apologizes for his over the place, random bursts of inspiration-

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 03:33 PM
Imbue Arrow is good, but only if you already meet the prerequisites and don't lose caster levels for it. The rest of the class is trash.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-13, 03:36 PM
It sounds like Wizard//Warblade is your match then. It's way more book-keeping than I would want to put up with. And you can't cast in armor, of course.

Maybe Warblade//Dread Necromancer would be better for you. You don't get fireball, but you can get some desert wind maneuvers for firepower through martial study.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 03:38 PM
It sounds like Wizard//Warblade is your match then. It's way more book-keeping than I would want to put up with. And you can't cast in armor, of course.

Eh, sure I could fix that with some bracers/Twilight armour down the line. =) I am tempted to maybe go Swordsage, as the Wisdom to AC in light armour is rather nice.

Zaeron
2009-12-13, 03:43 PM
It sounds like Wizard//Warblade is your match then. It's way more book-keeping than I would want to put up with. And you can't cast in armor, of course.

Maybe Warblade//Dread Necromancer would be better for you. You don't get fireball, but you can get some desert wind maneuvers for firepower through martial study.

Re: Book keeping - it is a lot of that. I have a 3 page word document, the first page and a half is all spells/maneuvers, and then an entire additional page is my combat stats pre-buffing, post-buffing, etc, etc. If you don't have a head for numbers, be careful. I'm pretty good at tracking modifiers and I'm frequently off by a point or two despite my best efforts.

Only other comment is don't plan on having many feats to blow - the warblade bonus feats are mostly garbage, in terms of meeting pre-reqs and stuff, and the wizard feats are even worse. I'm not sure you'll have space in your build for many martial study abilities. However, if you DO have space, Desert Wind is EXACTLY what you want. It's all about the explosive, flashy maneuvers. Setting Sun would be another good school to look at. Honestly, it almost sounds like you want a Swordsage - unfortunately they don't synergize anywhere near as well. Lower HD, lower BAB, and no INT synergy.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 03:47 PM
Setting Sun would be another good school to look at.

Not really looking for Rogueness, and fighting with Dex weapons. BFS all the way, baby! =D

And yeah, I'm already getting a headache figuring out how I'm going to fit all this stuff into an effective build... x.x Warblade and Swordsage have such nice abilities, but then I do like the abilities of Wizard and Arcane Archer, and... blah. Goddamn decisions.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 03:55 PM
Hmm, considering the good abilities of of both Warblade and Swordsage... how does multiclassing interest between them? Do they stack, or is it similar to the casters having seperate caster levels and spells?

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 04:11 PM
Hmm, considering the good abilities of of both Warblade and Swordsage... how does multiclassing interest between them? Do they stack, or is it similar to the casters having seperate caster levels and spells?

They have separate progressions, but each level in non-Initiator classes counts as ½ level for your Initiator Level. So Warblade 4/Swordsage 2 has Initiator Level of 5 (4+2*½) for Warblade and 4 (2+2*½) for Swordsage. So they really multiclass rather well.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 04:27 PM
I don't quite get that... so, half your other class counts towards you other? So, taking Warblade4, and then Swordsage 2 means you get Swordsage Initiation level of Swordsage 2, plus half of Warblade4?

Hadrian_Emrys
2009-12-13, 04:31 PM
They have separate progressions, but each level in non-Initiator classes counts as ½ level for your Initiator Level. So Warblade 4/Swordsage 2 has Initiator Level of 5 (4+2*½) for Warblade and 4 (2+4*½) for Swordsage. So they really multiclass rather well.

Fix'd it for ya. :smalltongue:

Basically, one's Initiator level = (x Adept class level) + 1/2 other class levels. Thus, in the above example, a MC Warblade 4/Swordsage 2 is treated as 5/4 as opposed to being a 6 in one class. Thus, a 10/10 build is treated as a 15/15 one in terms of potency. Not a bad system really.

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 04:33 PM
Hmm, not too bad... So, a 10/10 progression works unlike a 10/10 for casters?

And how do non-ToB classes interact?

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 04:39 PM
Hmm, not too bad... So, a 10/10 progression works unlike a 10/10 for casters?

And how do non-ToB classes interact?

10/10 works, though you miss out on level 9 maneuvers in any school that way. And non-ToB classes interact in the exactly same way as different ToB base classes. ToB PrCs (outside Bloodstorm Blade) are different; they add their level to all your martial adept progressions.

So Warblade 4/Swordsage 4/Bloodclaw Master 4 is considered Warblade 10 and Swordsage 10 (4 from base class, 4*½ from the other class, 4 from Bloodclaw Master).

Ryumaru
2009-12-13, 05:10 PM
Are the ninth level manuevers that groundbreaking? Or do the eighth level still make you a damn sight better than Fighter?

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-14, 12:28 AM
Swordsage has wisdom synergy so... Sword Sage//Cloistered Cleric might be sweet. Especially with some violent domains. Fire domain, perhaps. You have practically unlimited spell selection, access to Righteous Might and Divine Power to totally negate your wis-centric nature and medium BAB. You'll have an amazing skill list, 6 skill points/level, potent spellcasting, a ton of martial manuevers. Yes... yes.... Select Desert Wind as your discipline focus and go to town with throwing fire everywhere and adding your wisdom to AC and damage rolls.

Really, between full divine casting and swordsage manuever progression you will be unstoppable in combat.

Cloistered Cleric is on the srd (also unearthed arcana). I would recommend spontaneous divine caster variant as well to cut down on book keeping. That variant is very kind to cloistered cleric since the free knowledge domain adds to your spells known.

I would grab the strength domain in addition to the fire and knowledge domains for maximum pounding power. At level 20, a +20 enhancement to STR for one round will do wonders.


EDIT:
And, as it turns out, all good saves, too!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-14, 03:51 AM
I'd probably go something like Warblade 20// Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Swiftblade 10, cast Greater Luminous Armor from BoED and Shield and not have to worry about ASF. Alternatively, a +1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (RotW) has a 0% ASF. If you want to go with an armored mage, go Dwarf into Runesmith (RoS) and don't worry about ASF ever again. Another option would be to use the Arcane Swordsage variant on page 20, under the Adaptation heading, and just go Arcane Swordsage 20//(anything) 20 and be amazing.

Ryumaru
2009-12-14, 07:03 AM
Swordsage has wisdom synergy so... Sword Sage//Cloistered Cleric might be sweet. Especially with some violent domains. Fire domain, perhaps. You have practically unlimited spell selection, access to Righteous Might and Divine Power to totally negate your wis-centric nature and medium BAB. You'll have an amazing skill list, 6 skill points/level, potent spellcasting, a ton of martial manuevers. Yes... yes.... Select Desert Wind as your discipline focus and go to town with throwing fire everywhere and adding your wisdom to AC and damage rolls.

Really, between full divine casting and swordsage manuever progression you will be unstoppable in combat.

Cloistered Cleric is on the srd (also unearthed arcana). I would recommend spontaneous divine caster variant as well to cut down on book keeping. That variant is very kind to cloistered cleric since the free knowledge domain adds to your spells known.

I would grab the strength domain in addition to the fire and knowledge domains for maximum pounding power. At level 20, a +20 enhancement to STR for one round will do wonders.


EDIT:
And, as it turns out, all good saves, too!

Is there anyway of making a Cleric somewhat akin to a Wizard, in that respect? Having all those buffs and healing is nice, but a lot of what I see in Desert Wind doesn't seem that impressive. And it's all just... fire. Which seems to a get repetative. And 2d6 cones for second level don't really seem that impressive. (Not experienced with Wizards, but I'm sure even they do more than that at second/third level?)


I'd probably go something like Warblade 20// Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Swiftblade 10, cast Greater Luminous Armor from BoED and Shield and not have to worry about ASF. Alternatively, a +1 Twilight Mithral Breastplate with a Thistledown Suit (RotW) has a 0% ASF. If you want to go with an armored mage, go Dwarf into Runesmith (RoS) and don't worry about ASF ever again. Another option would be to use the Arcane Swordsage variant on page 20, under the Adaptation heading, and just go Arcane Swordsage 20//(anything) 20 and be amazing.

Eh. Not liking it. Losing all that casting for a crappy prestige class (hate Spellsword), ontop of a class which isn't part of a book and doesn't have full progression... I'd be playing a Human or an Elf, either way.

And I'm having enough trouble figuring out ToB as is. Let alone ToB-with-magic-insted-and-manuevers. x.x

Ryumaru
2009-12-14, 08:09 AM
Also, anyone know any classes (baring Duskblade and Spellsword, both of which I don't like) which has any way of attacking with spells through a weapon? If Tome of Battle isn't allowed, I was going to try and see if I was allowed a Cleric//Wizard with some Arcane Archer, Abjurant Champion and a class which can do the same as Arcane Archer with melee weapons. Shooting ray of frost arrows, hacking dragon necks with ray of enervation stabs. =D

Eldariel
2009-12-14, 08:18 AM
Also, anyone know any classes (baring Duskblade and Spellsword, both of which I don't like) which has any way of attacking with spells through a weapon? If Tome of Battle isn't allowed, I was going to try and see if I was allowed a Cleric//Wizard with some Arcane Archer, Abjurant Champion and a class which can do the same as Arcane Archer with melee weapons. Shooting ray of frost arrows, hacking dragon necks with ray of enervation stabs. =D

There's a +1 metamagic feat called "Smiting Spell" in PHBII which does just that. Other than that, Spellsword's [CWar] level 5 ability enables hitting opponent with spells as does and of course, Spellstoring Weapons.

Ryumaru
2009-12-14, 11:20 AM
There's a +1 metamagic feat called "Smiting Spell" in PHBII which does just that. Other than that, Spellsword's [CWar] level 5 ability enables hitting opponent with spells as does and of course, Spellstoring Weapons.

Yeah... Spellsword sadly sucks however, and even to get a couple of uses of that a day, you have to lose a -huge- amount of casting. Will check out Smiting Spell, though.

Anything I should avoid as a Cleric/Wizard which could be gamebreaking? The DM was a little iffy of not allowing double-casting, because of gamebreaking stuff. Would like to know what I should tell the DM upfront I won't take x, x and x, because I'm not interested in just messing the game up.

It's a shame she hasn't been on, would be able to give you guys a much better idea of what she will allow. Insted of all these hypotheticals, 'just in case'...

Eldariel
2009-12-14, 11:39 AM
In Gestalt, you can just advance Wizard on the other side on your dead levels; it makes stuff like Spellsword slightly more doable. As for Wizard/Cleric? That's not really much stronger than Wizard; both have their own sets of broken stuff, but they don't in any ways combine to form something even more broken.

Gestalt caster is actually weaker than two separate casters since he can still only cast one spell and one quickened spell each round no matter how many he knows.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-12-14, 01:49 PM
20th level Wizard spellcasting, +20 BAB, enough Spellsword to get Channel Spell, ten levels of Swiftblade. This is how you gestalt with partial progression prestige classes:

1. Wizard 1// Fighter 1
2. Wizard 2// Human Paragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#humanParagon) 1
3. Fighter 2// Human Paragon 2
4. Zhentarim Fighter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 3// Human Paragon 3
5. Fighter 4// Spellsword 1
6. Wizard 3// Spellsword 2
7. Zhentarim Fighter 5// Spellsword 3
8. Wizard 4// Spellsword 4
9. Wizard 5// Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 1
10. Fighter 6// Swiftblade 2
11. Fighter 7// Swiftblade 3
12. Wizard 6// Swiftblade 4
13. Fighter 8// Swiftblade 5
14. Zhentarim Fighter 9// Swiftblade 6
15. Wizard 7// Swiftblade 7
16. Fighter 10// Swiftblade 8
17. Fighter 11// Swiftblade 9
18. Wizard 8// Swiftblade 10
19. Fighter 12// Spellsword 5
20. Wizard 9// Spellsword 6

Zhentarim Soldier 9's ability is just amazing. Get Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark and you can keep one creature cowering for an entire fight. Use Never Outnumbered and you make every opponent cower for a round and can still full-attack. With Dreadful Wrath or Frightful Presence to make them already shaken, you can keep multiple opponents' actions disrupted throughout the fight. The build gets enough fighter feats to pick up the archery tree with Ranged Weapon Mastery without sacrificing its ability to be a melee Gish. Get some +1 Spellstoring Arrows and put (Lesser Rod of) Maximized Shivering Touch into them. Get Spellstoring on your weapon and put Maximized Vampiric Touch into it. With Channel Spell you can turn Cloudkill into a single-target spell that deals 1d4 Con damage per round for ten rounds per caster level. Even if it makes every save, that's a minimum of ten Con damage per caster level. The build has plenty of options without being too complicated, and you can still grab Leadership, Wild Cohort, Obtain/Improved Familiar (to count all your levels), etc. so you have some backup.