Is the Pathfinder Druid still as broken as the 3.5 Druid?

[Narmy]

Is the Pathfinder Druid still as broken as the 3.5 Druid?

[Stephen_E]

IMO no, because Wildshape has been constrained somewhat.

Note that saying it's less broken doesn't mean it isn't still "broken" depending on your value of "broken".

If the Core 3.5 Druid is 10 on a scale of 1-10, then the Pathfinder Druid is probably around 9.5-9.8.

The Animal Companion has also probably been reduced slightly in power, but increased in play variability due to been able to use the stat increase every 4 HD to increase Int to 3+.

Stephen E

[harpy]

I'm currently watching a PF summoner druid ruin a game.

Not much has changed.

[Saph]

Druids are powerful due to full casting, Wild Shape, and their animal companion. Pathfinder nerfed Wild Shape but kept the full casting and the animal companion.

So instead of being as good as 3 characters, they're as good as 2 1/2 characters. Comparatively, they're weaker, but that's not saying much.

[FatR]

Is the Pathfinder Druid still as broken as the 3.5 Druid?
Considering that most classes, specializing in stabbing things, got various stealth nerfs? I say that the power gap between Druid and the majority of classes that were traditionally considered underpowered is even bigger.

[Stephen_E]

Considering that most classes, specializing in stabbing things, got various stealth nerfs? I say that the power gap between Druid and the majority of classes that were traditionally considered underpowered is even bigger.

I can't say I've ever noticed any stealth nerfs playing PF so I'd stick with "Marginally weaker".

Just curious, when you say specalised in stabbing things, do you mean all the classes that rely on killing you with weapons, or just those that rely on "Sneak Attack"?

Stephen E

[Starbuck_II]

I can't say I've ever noticed any stealth nerfs playing PF so I'd stick with "Marginally weaker".

Just curious, when you say specalised in stabbing things, do you mean all the classes that rely on killing you with weapons, or just those that rely on "Sneak Attack"?

Stephen E

Well, it is harder to get sneak attack (Grease/Balance no longer works, etc).

[Gametime]

Well, it is harder to get sneak attack (Grease/Balance no longer works, etc).

Saying it's harder to get sneak attack is like saying the Pathfinder druid is weaker. It's true, but it's still so absurdly easy to get sneak attack in any but the most contrived situations that it hardly matters. Unless the BBEG has Improved Uncanny Dodge and True Seeing and a good spot check, you should be fine.

[Ryumaru]

Saying it's harder to get sneak attack is like saying the Pathfinder druid is weaker. It's true, but it's still so absurdly easy to get sneak attack in any but the most contrived situations that it hardly matters. Unless the BBEG has Improved Uncanny Dodge and True Seeing and a good spot check, you should be fine.

Only gets nicer when you realize that out of all the books so far, I've only found -one- enemy in the entire game which is immune to critical hits and sneak attack. Damn, it's fun kidney-shotting zombies.

[Stephen_E]

Well, it is harder to get sneak attack (Grease/Balance no longer works, etc).

Strictly speaking that's not a stealth nerf.
I'd also note that you can sneak attack most undead now, as well as constructs, so I think that more than ballances it.

I rember Rogues in the party asking when they would get to fight something that could actually be sneak attacked after several sessions where everything was invunerable to sneak attack.

I suspect the Grease/balance thing is due to a tendancy, IMO, for the PF designers to remove tricksey ways of allowing stuff. Thus they said "no" to metamagiced Cantrips been cast repeatedly due to cantrips not burning up the slot when cast.

No balance or power reason to stop it, but they hadn't intended it and it was tricksey/cheeky (what some call "Cheese") so they shut it down.

Stephen E

[Sir_Ophiuchus]

Stephen_E, what you describe would make cantrips into reserve feats. No wonder they ruled it that way.

Of course cantrips aren't intendeed for that use. They don't burn 0-level slots because there are none - if you sacrifice higher slots to empower them, then you need to pay for it.

[Stephen_E]

Stephen_E, what you describe would make cantrips into reserve feats. No wonder they ruled it that way.

Of course cantrips aren't intendeed for that use. They don't burn 0-level slots because there are none - if you sacrifice higher slots to empower them, then you need to pay for it.

You are mistaken.
There are 0 level slots.
Cantrips don't burn them because the PF rules say they don't.
You can only have as many cantrips memorised as you have 0 level slots for them.
And allowing someone to use a lev 1 slot to memorise a empowered Ray of Frost that they can cast all day long is so far from overpowered or broken that it isn't even in the same continient.

Seriously can anyone come up with a metamagic cantrip that is remotely overpowered for the spell slot it takes, even allowing that you can recast it as much as you like.


Stephen E

[Rainbownaga]

You are mistaken.

Seriously can anyone come up with a metamagic cantrip that is remotely overpowered for the spell slot it takes, even allowing that you can recast it as much as you like.

Stephen E

Can you use fel drain in PF?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Can you use fel drain in PF?

I believe so, yes, since the stance seems to be that all of the 3.5 books are available for use in PF, just as all of the 3.0 stuff is still legit in 3.5.

[Rixx]

Though Fell Drain is outside core 3.5, and as such, wasn't included in the equation as far as balancing goes. Pathfinder can't magically balance all the extended 3.5 materials.

[Zeta Kai]

Pathfinder can't magically balance all the extended 3.5 materials.

Well, they didn't balance core, & they only made splatbooks difficult to use because of rule conflict, so what do you expect?

[Stephen_E]

Can you use fel drain in PF?

If Fel Drain is a cantrip then it isn't allowed in without GM fait.

They specifically removed all core cantrips that would break given unlimited
casting.

Stephen E

[DragoonWraith]

Fell Drain is a metamagic feat that basically turns any damage-dealing spell into Enervation.

[arguskos]

Fell Drain is a metamagic feat that basically turns any damage-dealing spell into Enervation.
To specify, Fell Drain is a +1 metamagic that lets any spell that deals hit point damage also deal 1 negative level. Tossing it on Magic Missile for a party-wide debuff is good times. :smallwink:

[Stephen_E]

To specify, Fell Drain is a +1 metamagic that lets any spell that deals hit point damage also deal 1 negative level. Tossing it on Magic Missile for a party-wide debuff is good times. :smallwink:

I assume you get a save vs it?

Stephen E

[Stephen_E]

I would maintain that a Fel Drain Ray of Frost that you can cast without expending the spell slot is less broken than Fel Drain on non-cantrips.

Stephen E

[DragoonWraith]

Actually, it's +2, and functions as long as the spell it's modifying successfully deals damage (so Reflex save or Touch attack). The negative levels are removed (automatically, you don't need to make a Fort save) after a number of hours equal to caster level (capped at 15).

[Stephen_E]

Actually, it's +2, and functions as long as the spell it's modifying successfully deals damage (so Reflex save or Touch attack). The negative levels are removed (automatically, you don't need to make a Fort save) after a number of hours equal to caster level (capped at 15).

Thanks. That confirms my suspicion.
Using a 2nd lev spell slot to cast this with Ray of Frost every round is no more powerful than the funky stuff you can do with 1 shot of say, Burning Hands, or Magic Missile.

Strong in extended combats, but in shorter combats I take the other choices.

Stephen E