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Malificus
2009-12-13, 01:07 AM
I need assistance with the exact changes for a 3.5 ed D&D campaign I'm coming up with. The point of the setting is a very low magic world where strong metals are rare. A steel +1 sword would be a long guarded relic of a kingdom, with the average soldier using wood, stone, or bronze, because that's all they have. The point was to emphasize environment effects. Climates, terrain, weather, and racial benefits are the reason I'm making this world. I'll just be using core classes, with no druids, to make things somewhat easier on myself.

Here are the ideas I have for how to handle things:

Some environments I plan on using

Plains - Straight forward flat areas. Nothing really special here.
Forests - wildlife makes travel dangerous, but normal forests aren't too bad.
Mountains - craggy terrain with easy routes being long and winding
Caves - keep an eye on light remaining, emphasis on narrow passageways, sudden drops, and underground rivers
Volcanoes - Like the above two, but with lave, and other heat problems
Cold Regions - Emphasis on wind, slippery ground, and snow-related problems (from effort needed walking through avalanches)
Swamps - Emphasis on poisonous hazards (gases, flora and fauna)

They would be complimented by weather effects, and would effect how strong different magics are. There would also be some Epic scale remnants of a by-gone era, such as The Infinite Forest, The Giant City (made for colossal size inhabitants), and The House at the Edge of the World.

I was going to focus on human races, with most if not all non-human races being unplayable ancient, dying things with very few survivors, barely capable of propagating with themselves, let alone humans.

Equipment

Strong metals are very rare, weapons would be made of wood, stone, bronze, or other similar materials.
No magical gear would be available for purchase.
Magical texts like scrolls would be unheard of
Alchemy would still work.


Magic for characters

Mages would have to specialize in an element
Mages would not be able to find scrolls to learn from
Magic would have it's dominant stat (damage/distance/duration) halved, unless in it's element. A fire mage is much less useful outside of deserts and volcanoes.
Cleric spells would often be vetoed by gods would can not always afford every magic to lend. A player cleric is given some more lenience due to their in story importance.
Resurrections are undoable
Druids would not be playable
Use magic device can not be taken as a skill at character creation


Possible problems I see: How do I balance monks with other physical classes? Their high mobility and fortitude gives them a distinct advantage in a campaign that emphasizes those abilities. Plus their damage is currently unaffected by the lack of strong metals, unlike other martial classes. Do the fighter's feats still make up for the difference?

Also, how should half casters like bards, rangers, and paladins be handled? Is the decrease in magic that hits regular casters enough?

And as for casters, should I include Adepts as a class choice for some extra variety?

Anonanimal
2009-12-13, 01:20 AM
Monks are inherently unbalanced, but not in the way that you're thinking. Monks are really not very good at all. With all the changes you've made, they might measure up. Maybe.

Malificus
2009-12-13, 01:27 AM
Well that's good, I was getting a little worried when I made a world where a 15+ level fighter may finally be getting a +1 greatsword.

PersonMan
2009-12-13, 01:28 AM
This is just a detail, but you should probably have a good reason for the lack of strong metals, such as the ore such metals are usually mined from be incredibly rare, or something like that.

Another thing, what 'elements' will there be? Assuming you'll have the generic air/earth/fire/water, what will other spells fit into? What sort of spell would Magic Missile be? Disintegrate? Or will these spells not be available?

jmbrown
2009-12-13, 01:39 AM
Eliminate casters completely. The more you reduce a players options, the less they'll have fun using them. Sorcerers and wizards should be NPCs only so they can benefit from DM fiat. In low magic worlds, outsiders and creatures with innate abilities hold all the power so spell casters are reduced to wheeling and dealing for their power.

You want environments to be hazardous then ensure you strictly follow the weight limitations, roll randomly every day for weather, and follow the random encounter charts to the letter.

For armor, just ban medium and heavy armor. At this point you're better using the defense bonus recommended in Unearthed Arcana.

Half casters should be given extra abilities in exchange for their casting. There's a magic-less paladin variant in UA I believe and PHB2 has a charging smite paladin in exchange for his special mount. To balance the monk with other martial classes, give him d10 hit dice and full BAB or let him use his wisdom for AC and give a bonus to attack (basically giving him intuitive attack feat from Book of Exalted Deeds).

Malificus
2009-12-13, 01:42 AM
This is just a detail, but you should probably have a good reason for the lack of strong metals, such as the ore such metals are usually mined from be incredibly rare, or something like that.


Another thing, what 'elements' will there be? Assuming you'll have the generic air/earth/fire/water, what will other spells fit into? What sort of spell would Magic Missile be? Disintegrate? Or will these spells not be available?

hmm.. I'm thinking
Earth = Sonic (big booming attacks)
Water = Cold
Air = Electricity
Fire = Fire
Alchemy = Acid

magic missile, disintegrate, etc would take on the properties of the caster's element. So a fire disintegrate would represent the object burning into ashes, and a earth disintegrate would have to target be shaken by the sound to nothing. Not quite a full disintegrate, but the save or gone effect is still mostly there.

Innis Cabal
2009-12-13, 01:45 AM
Well that's good, I was getting a little worried when I made a world where a 15+ level fighter may finally be getting a +1 greatsword.

Don't expect them to take on CR 15 monsters. They'll get crushed. Badly.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 06:56 AM
Mmm, the campaign journal I'm writing is a low-magic world (no PC spellcasters, among other things) with the houserules spelled out. While you aren't going for the exact same thing, it may be of interest to you (especially in terms of means to compensate for lacking magical items, and some extra grittiness).

I strongly suggest against making a +1 weapon something kingdoms will fight over. My reasoning is very simple: No matter how magical, that isn't much better than a non-magical weapon. The way I like to work with low-magic worlds is make the few magic items truly powerful. Artifact-like. This feels logical for few reasons:
1) If they are coveted, it has to be for a reason. The epic sword can't just be a bit sharper than your average tool; it's not a mover, a tool of legend then. A warrior wielding a +1 sword isn't notably stronger (except against DR/Magic creatures, but they're rare enough) than a warrior with a standard sword. There's just no epicness to mildly magical items and when magic items are rare, I find there's no room for lesser magical items in the world, as you want them to be rare and to have an impact.
2) Magical weapons are probably made out of need. If they require great personal sacrifice and such to make (which seems logical if they're extremely rare; making them very taxing to make really puts dampers on any desire to craft), so people probably wouldn't make them for the hell of it. No, that one sword was made to slay the dragon and the spear to vanquish ghosts. Simple +1 weapon ain't gonna cut it. When there's need, the weapon should match the size of that need.

If you want to incorporate other materials and more mundane levels of work into the weapons, I suggest added levels of craftmanship (you could even just yoink the normal magic-system of +1-+5 weapons and instead treat them as mundane improvements on the weapon with +5 weapon being effectively the Hattori Hanzo sword while a sword without plusses being the common Smith's work).

Combine this with different materials as you intend and you can create quite an elaborate hierarchy of non-magical weapons with the steel "+5-level craft" weapons on the very top of it outside the actual magic weapons.

Riffington
2009-12-13, 11:03 AM
Mmm, the campaign journal I'm writing is a low-magic world (no PC spellcasters, among other things) with the houserules spelled out. While you aren't going for the exact same thing, it may be of interest to you (especially in terms of means to compensate for lacking magical items, and some extra grittiness).

I strongly suggest against making a +1 weapon something kingdoms will fight over. My reasoning is very simple: No matter how magical, that isn't much better than a non-magical weapon. The way I like to work with low-magic worlds is make the few magic items truly powerful. Artifact-like. This feels logical for few reasons:
1) If they are coveted, it has to be for a reason. The epic sword can't just be a bit sharper than your average tool; it's not a mover, a tool of legend then. A warrior wielding a +1 sword isn't notably stronger (except against DR/Magic creatures, but they're rare enough) than a warrior with a standard sword. There's just no epicness to mildly magical items and when magic items are rare, I find there's no room for lesser magical items in the world, as you want them to be rare and to have an impact.
2) Magical weapons are probably made out of need. If they require great personal sacrifice and such to make (which seems logical if they're extremely rare; making them very taxing to make really puts dampers on any desire to craft), so people probably wouldn't make them for the hell of it. No, that one sword was made to slay the dragon and the spear to vanquish ghosts. Simple +1 weapon ain't gonna cut it. When there's need, the weapon should match the size of that need.

If you want to incorporate other materials and more mundane levels of work into the weapons, I suggest added levels of craftmanship (you could even just yoink the normal magic-system of +1-+5 weapons and instead treat them as mundane improvements on the weapon with +5 weapon being effectively the Hattori Hanzo sword while a sword without plusses being the common Smith's work).

Combine this with different materials as you intend and you can create quite an elaborate hierarchy of non-magical weapons with the steel "+5-level craft" weapons on the very top of it outside the actual magic weapons.

Agreed. (though I wouldn't quite go to +5 with mere craftsmanship). But separately from that: if magic items are rare, I strongly agree that those magic items that do exist should be powerful. What you want to get rid of are the trinkets, not the artifacts.

Prime32
2009-12-13, 12:12 PM
Basically, the game is designed so that PCs will have certain equipment at high levels, and becomes unbalanced when they are deprived of them. (even with your restrictions, the fighter/caster gap will only widen when they're the only ones who can gain access to magic)

So instead of removing them, reflavour them and get rid of the restrictions (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6551.0). Brew Potion uses your ranks in Craft (alchemy) rather than caster level, a +5 sword is just one that is insanely well-crafted (think Masamune (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masamune)) rather than being stuffed with enough energy to make your apprentice go blind, etc.

imperialspectre
2009-12-13, 12:16 PM
Play an E6 game. It's really that simple - D&D past about that level is inherently high-magic because that's what all of the challenges are. Below that level, just ban anything that casts better than a bard and you're good to go.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-13, 12:20 PM
Yes, play E6. Otherwise, casters will still horribly dominate the game.

What, overland flight only lasts half as long? The wizard, frankly, won't care. The elementalist thing is quite easy to dodge, though expect routine arguments about what constitutes a "primary stat". If you want to incorporate such a system, I suggest using the CL modification optional rules, as per Mongoose's publishings. I believe they are in Ultimate Sorcerer.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:25 PM
I rather just suggest banning full casters in low-magic world games. That tends to get rid of most balance-problems anyways, and makes all sorts of sense to boot. If one MUST have casters (I, personally, never saw the need in low-magic), use Bard (WITHOUT Sublime Chord) and Adept.

They're still fine, but they'll take a bit longer to get to the truly strong spells. Frankly, I personally love low-magic high level D&D; it truly feels more like heroic epic without the stupid christmas trees and the lack of the whole "I cast X to solve everything". The characters are rather epic (not Epic, but epically awesome), but they do great stuff through mundane means.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-13, 12:31 PM
Balance issues with casters goes away entirely if he goes with E6, and most other balance issues vanish as well.

No scrolls available? Let them spend a feat to learn a new spell. Boom, a way to improve the character, while keeping it suitably balanced for the setting.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 12:34 PM
Balance issues with casters goes away entirely if he goes with E6, and most other balance issues vanish as well.

No scrolls available? Let them spend a feat to learn a new spell. Boom, a way to improve the character, while keeping it suitably balanced for the setting.

High-level low-magic D&D isn't inherently undoable though and indeed, tends to be more balanced than high-level high-magic D&D (of course CR will be even more accurate than before, but that doesn't really matter since it's a useless number). So while E6 is an option, it doesn't really sound like what he wants.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-13, 12:36 PM
Well, many things, such as poisons, diseases, etc are much more balanced for low levels. Likewise, mundane equipment prices.

High level, low magic is only vaguely balanced if you ban all full casters. Without this, it's less balanced than high level, standard magic campaigns.

Im guessing he probably hasn't heard of E6 until now, hence the suggestion.

Malificus
2009-12-13, 04:44 PM
Well, many things, such as poisons, diseases, etc are much more balanced for low levels. Likewise, mundane equipment prices.

High level, low magic is only vaguely balanced if you ban all full casters. Without this, it's less balanced than high level, standard magic campaigns.



Im guessing he probably hasn't heard of E6 until now, hence the suggestion.

You're right, I hadn't. It's pretty cool, but the plan is to have the players save the world, which doesn't quite fit low level. Banning full casters sounds like the best option so far.

I'm thinking if I give magic weapons, they would only really work as such in the few areas strong in magic. A sword may be +2 in the Ancient Forge City or The Infinite Forest, but in the deep woods or the capital city, it would merely be a masterwork sword since magic is so much weaker. This would help show that magic in the world has dropped intrinsically.

Glimbur
2009-12-13, 04:55 PM
You're right, I hadn't. It's pretty cool, but the plan is to have the players save the world, which doesn't quite fit low level. Banning full casters sounds like the best option so far.

It's possible to save the world as an E6 party. It's not a good idea to just charge the dragon who is masterminding the evil nation who is conquering the world, for example, so the PC's need to fight smart. If that's not the kind of game you want, then either limit the power of opponents so the E6 party can just kick in the door and fight them or don't use E6.

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 04:59 PM
You're right, I hadn't. It's pretty cool, but the plan is to have the players save the world, which doesn't quite fit low level. Banning full casters sounds like the best option so far.

I'm thinking if I give magic weapons, they would only really work as such in the few areas strong in magic. A sword may be +2 in the Ancient Forge City or The Infinite Forest, but in the deep woods or the capital city, it would merely be a masterwork sword since magic is so much weaker. This would help show that magic in the world has dropped intrinsically.

Give the sword some more interesting abilities than +1, +2 or so on. Something memorable. And yeah, that idea sounds doable, though I do think the players should somehow be able to empower the sword in other areas through great deals of effort/some miniquests to charge it with enough magic to last in places where magic is otherwise death for some duration. That could make for interesting hooks for when you need to slay some powerful beast you need magical weapons against.

Malificus
2009-12-13, 05:30 PM
It's possible to save the world as an E6 party. It's not a good idea to just charge the dragon who is masterminding the evil nation who is conquering the world, for example, so the PC's need to fight smart. If that's not the kind of game you want, then either limit the power of opponents so the E6 party can just kick in the door and fight them or don't use E6.

I think I understand. So say, the party may be saving the world, but they can't level up to the point that harsh environments, weather effects, cliffs, or poisons are nothing. But that doesn't stop them from going into the ancient wonders of the world, to find the Magical MacGuffin that saves the world, or fight the dreaded chimera to get into the dungeon. Plus casters only hitting 3rd level spells at most fits in with the idea of magic being weak.

Hmm.. I think I'll still require specialization for wizards, even if I go with this. At least regular school specialization.


Give the sword some more interesting abilities than +1, +2 or so on. Something memorable.
Yeah, if nothing else, straight up elemental damage instead of +whatever.