Mundane Masterwork Enhancements [3.5/PF] Updated 28th December

[Narmy]

Last Update - January 13th
Time of Update - 11: 08 PM, or 23:08 Hours.

Masterwork Enhancements.

In order to enhance an item with these mundane properties it must be created as such. This means that an item with a +1 Confirm Critical, the item and creation process must go as follows.
The item must be of masterwork quality, it must be created with the masterwork portion of the item.

Thus the DC, and cost of creating the enhanced masterwork item increase as listed.

Exponential Costs
All costs are exponential except for Disarm, Trip, Sunder, Feint, Intimidate, and Diplomacy. An example of the +1 Hardness, and 5 hp costs would be; 100 Gold for the first point, 200 gold in addition to for the second point, and then 400, 800, 1600 gold in addition each point.

Stacking
All Masterwork Enhancements stack with Magical Enchantment bonuses except as listed specifically.

Example
A Masterwork Longsword, Enhanced +5 Hardness, 25 HP.
Would have a total creation cost of +4100 Gold plus the cost of the weapon itself, and a DC of 38. The masterwork price is included in this example.

15 Gold = Price of Weapon.
300 Gold = Masterwork Version.
3100 Gold = +5 Hardness, and 25 HP.
This would come out to a total cost of 3415 Gold, with a Craft DC of 30.




Weapons
{table=head]Enhancement | Cost | DC Increase | Limit
Reduce weight by 1/3 (33%) | +50 / lb Gold | 4 | 1
+1 Hardness and 5 HP | +100 Gold | 2 | 5
+1 Disarm | +200 Gold | 2 | 4
+1 Trip | +200 Gold | 2 | 4
+1 Sunder | +200 Gold | 2 | 4
+1 Feint | +200 Gold | 2 | 4
+1 Damage | +500 Gold | 3 | 5
+1 To Hit Bonus | +500 Gold | 3 | 5
+1 Confirm Critical Threat | +1000 Gold | 2 | 4
+1 Critical Threat Range | +1000 Gold | 6 | 1[/table]

The Critical Threat Range Does NOT stack with Keen, or Improved Critical.

Intimidating or Diplomatic Weapons
In order to gain the benefits from an intimidating, or diplomatic weapon. The weapon must be carried/wielding on your person, and the target must be capable of clearly seeing the weapon and the symbols or carvings on it. These bonuses are circumstantial and may not work on every one (DM Rule)

Armors
{table=head]Enhancement | Cost | DC Increase | Limit
Reduce Weight by 1/3 (33%) | +75 / lb Gold | 6 | 1
+2 Hardness and 10 HP | +200 Gold | 4 | 5
+1 Max Dex | +500 Gold | 4 | 3
Reduce ACP by 1 | +500 Gold | 4 | 3
-5% Spell Failure | +500 Gold | 4 | 1
+1 AC vs Confirm Critical Threat | +500 Gold | 4 | 4[/table]

Tools and Instruments
{table=head]Grade Degree | Cost | DC | Bonus
Masterwork | +50gp | 20 | +2
Second | +1250gp | 30 | +4
Third | +1250gp | 40 | +6 [/table]

[Milskidasith]

You don't list the costs, so I have no clue how balanced these are. Improving the crit range by 4 is insane for crit builds, though.

[Fortuna]

Forced to agree on that one. Perhaps alternate improving range and multiplier? Still insane, but probably less so.

[TSED]

Also, masterwork armour increases the price by 150gp not 300gp in base 3.5. You may have overlooked that detail.

[Temotei]

Wasn't there a thread about a week or two ago dealing with exactly this?

[Narmy]

I wouldn't know, oh I didn't miss it, I was just bored, lazy, and not in the mood, and so made a mistake and never realized that I did so until now.

Thank you for pointing it out.

Oh, I didn't list the prices because I'm looking for help in what I should do with it.

Your posts have helped me a bit, I'll edit it up, and then hopefully you can get back to me.

[Krazddndfreek]

There is something that looks almost exactly like this, but thoroughly fleshed out on dandwiki.com. Here it is, Building a Better Masterwork. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Building_a_Better_Masterwork_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%2 9) Enjoy.

[Narmy]

Actually, that's not a good finished product, nor is it finished.
That's where I got the idea for it.

Now should the levels be from 1-3, or 1-5.

I'm thinking of going with a +2 or perhaps a +4 to confirm criticals, at the higher levels, the critical threat range would increase.

[Krazddndfreek]

It looks pretty finished to me. I'll agree with you when you say its not very good. It's not feasible at all for game use.

You could go with what some of the suggesters at the end of the article said. One of them said to adapt the mastercraft system and treat it as masterwork. Another suggested the builder of the masterwork item could choose the extra benefits after 1st degree from a specific set. Another said to simply use the same rules, but cut the costs so the masterwork increases at the same rate that magical items do.

[Ponce]

There is something that looks almost exactly like this, but thoroughly fleshed out on dandwiki.com. Here it is, Building a Better Masterwork. (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Building_a_Better_Masterwork_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%2 9) Enjoy.

TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY THREE MILLION GOLD PIECES.

OP, it is a good idea, but both you and dandwiki are taking it down a dark, wretched path.

Suggestions:
-Design it for pre-epic play. Just... do it.
-Don't enhance the critical threat range. Give it a bonus to confirm criticals, like +2 every even level of masterwork (2,4) or maybe +1 at every level.
-Hardness and HP bonuses on the item are usually fine, though I cringe at the thought of DMs who actually like destroying gear. Still, should definitely be there.
-Masterwork attack bonuses should stack with magic bonuses, IMO. They seem to be two very different things to me.
-No reducing arcane spell failure, there's enough of that floating around as it is.
-Giving masterwork weapons a damage bonus is not sin!
-Armour should grant some DR, but nothing game-breaking.

Summary:

Masterwork Weapon - +1 Masterwork bonus to attack every odd level (1,3,5), +1 Masterwork bonus to damage every even level (2,4), +5 HP/level, +1 hardness/level, +1 bonus to confirm criticals/level. Cost: level*level*level*300. Max level: 5.

Masterwork Armour - ACP reduced by 1/level, +10 HP/level, +1 hardness/level, DR (Level)/Magic. Cost: level*level*level*200.

Descriptions:
Level One: An officer's weapon. Stands out from the rank and file.
Level Two: A nobleman's weapon. The best weapon most people will ever see.
Level Three: A king's weapon. He had the finest smith in the land summoned to his court to commission this.
Level Four: A master's weapon. Can only be found by seeking out the blacksmith rumoured to live in a highly inconvenient location in some frost-giant-ridden mountain range.
Level Five: A legendary weapon. Crafted in a time long past. An elegant weapon, for a more sophisticated age.

[Narmy]

I don't think that I'm taking it down a dark path, considering that I got the idea of different level masterwork items from D&D wiki, and then I decided to actually work with people to make a viable game working, balanced version.

Hence why I've come here.

So no, I'm not taking it down a dark path, I'm taking it to an enlightened path.


Also, yes, there was another masterwork levels thread, I did not see it, as it was way back in the pages. I am going to look at theirs, and then use ideas from both.

I am going to use some of the ideas that the previous poster just posted. The guy who said I was going down a dark path.

I thank him, as his information was helpful, but you did jump to a conclusion there. >.> I understand, you were shocked by the cost. <.< I was too. Hence why I wanted to make it a HELL of a lot cheaper.

And... before epic? Who ever gave you the idea I wanted them be be at epic levels?

Perhaps the high dc's... hm.. I'll fix those, no worries. I apologize.

[Narmy]

MASSIVE UPDATE.

I've updated the O.P. with my new Mundane Enhancements idea. Lets get some comments in people.

It's a pretty standard idea, and works well. I just need to get the numbers going correctly.

[deuxhero]

I like the idea (melee should get nice things), but note that a Masterwork (-1) Mithiral (-3) Fullplate for 200 extra gold (very minimal at the existing cost of the already popular item) get's an ACP of 0 (and will lack non-proficeny penalties as they are based on ACP)

What's the point of making armor harder/have more hit points? Can anything actually hurt armor when you are wearing it?

[FlamingKobold]

Narmy, I keep seeing your threads and comments and they always fit so perfectly with my campaigns :smallsmile: I like the new version, the numbers look about right. If I have time tonight, I'll do a solo playtest, and may or may not tweak the numbers before adding it to my next campaign.

[Narmy]

Yes, things can and should hurt armor when you are wearing it.

People just don't really take that into account.


Actually... ACP does not give Prof Penalties. Take the light armors for example, some have 0 ACP, and you STILL need Light armor Prof to use them without Penalties.

I'm not sure where you got that ACP info from, but I've NEVER heard of it.
Though I'll take into account the possibility that I could be wrong, though I'd like proof.

[Narmy]

Narmy, I keep seeing your threads and comments and they always fit so perfectly with my campaigns :smallsmile: I like the new version, the numbers look about right. If I have time tonight, I'll do a solo playtest, and may or may not tweak the numbers before adding it to my next campaign.If you do any number tweaks please post these here and give me your opinion.

As a side note, The increased to hit bonus does stack with magic weapons, EXCEPT for the first point. That is at least, my current idea of how these weapons should work with magical enchantments.

Meaning that a +3 To Hit, +2 Magical Enchanted Weapon would give you a total of

+4 To Hit (Enhancement Bonus)

P.S.
Thank you very much, it makes me very happy to hear that people like my work. Though it's not mine entirely, remember that. It belongs to myself, and all those that helped me gather the ideas for, and fix it. So it's the Community's work.

[Latronis]

I'm gunna keep an eye on this...

[Narmy]

I'm gunna keep an eye on this...

Why not post an idea so that it can change more often. So that there is more for you to keep an eye on.

As it stands now.

I have 1-2 People that I generally discuss my ideals with, and they are not always fully active parties. Which leads me to just having this forum.
(Yes I try other boards), and you guys no like to post unless I have good refined ideas. lol.

Though I can't get good refined ideas unless I have people comment and give me feedback. >.> Which I don't get unless I have refined ideas.


DAMN YOU DOOM TRIANGLES. -STABS THE TRIANGLE WITH A SPORK-

[Latronis]

Well I dont really have anything constructive to add atm, but i may later

[Narmy]

I've gone and added some tables, removed the crap, refixed. Added some explanations.

The explanations need work, so I'll rely on you guys to help with that.

Removed the option to increase die type by one size for balance purposes.

Made Reduce Weight available for armors.

[Latronis]

Non-magical means of reducing the weight of weapons is odd since it's the weight that makes melee weapons effective.

Have you thought about.. modifications?

Like a special grip or handle or some other adjustment potentially granting bonuses to combat actions? (like +2 disarm checks) etc

[Narmy]

Nope, it never crossed my mind.

As for lighter weights.

I'm thinking about using different materials, mixtures of minerals/alloys. Folding, and all of that.

So that you get a more potent or equally potent weapon or armor.. At a lighter weight.

I believe that it is logically, and realistically possible. I'm almost positive of it.

I'll ask my one friend, he's sort of a weapon master.

As for disarm and such, I'll add all those later tomorrow. If you have any ideas, post em.

[Latronis]

It's fairly simple physics, the more weight it has the more force it applies on the business end. In the case of an edge it cuts better, for a blunt weapon it umm crushes better. Start sacrificing weight and you have to manually apply more force.. swing harder to get the same effect.

You can strengthen a blade or lighten a blade without losing strength.

As for the mods.. Nothing specific, Just a basic idea atm.

[deuxhero]

Actually... ACP does not give Prof Penalties. Take the light armors for example, some have 0 ACP, and you STILL need Light armor Prof to use them without Penalties.

ORLY?


A character who is wearing armor with which she is not proficient applies its armor check penalty to attack rolls and to all skill checks that involve moving, including Ride.

Other than ACF I don't know any other penalties listed (this is why all those mages use mithiral twilight chain shirts, the only harm they do to a non-proficient user is 5 pounds of weight, same as a proficient one)

I think some class feature out there works only in armor you are proficient in, but that is the exception.

[Narmy]

I was interpreting your thing as something else.

Either way, we were both right in the way that we were talking.

At least, I was half-right, I just got combobulated, any way that's off-topic. BACK TO THE MATTER AT HAND --- SPORKS!

Yes, a fullplate could have 0 ACP, but hey. It's gonna cost them gold, and it's going to have to be made by a good blacksmith.

If you have problems with the acp right now for armors.

We can either increase the dc, the gold cost, or reduce the limit.

Suggestions if you want.

[FlamingKobold]

A few suggestions:

1. Make a mechanism to decrease ASF. I'm not sure about the effects, since right now I'm planning for a low/no magic campaign, but maybe a 5% reductio for 500 gp, max 3? Ooooh.... the wizard gets to wear leather armor.....

2. Make "Modifications," as were suggested above. Some examples would be giving melee weapons an optional 5' reach (But could still attack adjacent), A mod for 1-handed that lets them be used in a grapple, Mods that give +2 trip and disarm, etc. Maybe a mod that let's you get +2 when mounted, or is made in a specific way to make it easy to swing underwater. Just some suggestions.

[Narmy]

See... I'm not sure about the ASF..

Mainly due to the fact that Pathfinder has feats for wizards to deal with that sort of thing.

Even 3.5 does even, though you've gotta take it from the one Supplement Class for 3.5 (Or just use the PathFinder feats).

As for the underwater ideas, and such. Sounds good. Though I'd like a more detailed example before I add anything like that... reach maybe... I'm not sure.

As for other things. This is what I have planned.
Oh, and I'll be adding fluff for these things to (In example - Feint = You could have like tassles or whatever, coloured ribbon that can help distract an opponent.

You ever seen those chinese weapons with the ribbon that is used for distracting opponents? That's where I got the idea.

You paid closer attention to the coloured text, didn't ya :P See my point?

[Foryn Gilnith]

I also see sections in the forum rules addressing formatting. :P

Nice system, but I'm not sure about the prices and all. How would PCs get this? If you're trying to purchase one of these things, the obscene DC would probably make it cost more than a couple of thousand gold.


See... I'm not sure about the ASF..

Mainly due to the fact that Pathfinder has feats for wizards to deal with that sort of thing.

Pathfinder and basic 3.5 have feats to deal with half of the upgrades you're making available.

[Narmy]

The DC doesn't increase the cost of the weapon.

The type of, and number of enhancements do.

Go up and read the example at the top of the first post.

Aside from that.

The forum rules don't apply to that post for one reason, it was being done for purposes that don't bother anyone, and proved a good point, plus it's for homebrew purposes. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. Anyone who disagrees, well.. I won't say anything further.

[Narmy]

I also see sections in the forum rules addressing formatting. :P

Nice system, but I'm not sure about the prices and all. How would PCs get this? If you're trying to purchase one of these things, the obscene DC would probably make it cost more than a couple of thousand gold.



Pathfinder and basic 3.5 have feats to deal with half of the upgrades you're making available. And those upgrades have to do with the skill of the character themselves, NOT the actual weapon itself.

Aside from that, you're not really giving any help here, you're mostly providing negative criticism that I find offensive. Mostly, I'm just ticked at you for making that post about the forum rules regarding the colour. I ask that you either provide some constructive criticism, or leave.

[Foryn Gilnith]

The forum rules don't apply

Hence the emoticon. :P

Wait, the DC has no influence on price? So I can just walk up and buy a +3 attack, 2d4+5, 19-20/x4 critical Scythe for 1450 gold? I'd think the obscene difficulty involved with finding a craftsman capable of DC 48 checks would raise that price significantly.


And those upgrades have to do with the skill of the character themselves, NOT the actual weapon itself.
Ok? There are feats to enhance critical range; there is also a weapon to enhance critical range. There are feats to remove spell failure. Does that mean that there should be no armor to remove spell failure?


Aside from that, you're not really giving any help here, you're mostly providing negative criticism that I find offensive.

I'm asking questions because I don't fully understand the proposal. I can't give help since I don't yet understand the proposal.

[Narmy]

The system is still a WORK IN PROGRESS. W.I.P.

The gold prices are not yet balanced. They are rough ideas for now.

Aside from that, most likely you would NOT be able to walk into a store and buy such an item, you'd probably have to have a blacksmith make it, or construct it yourself

Unless the store in question belongs to a blacksmith of respectable reputation.

[Narmy]

There are feats to remove spell failure. Does that mean that there should be no armor to remove spell failure?

The modifications available to items is not related to the feats and their abilities to give a player the knowledge/skill to bypass those things, or perform better.

It's a separate form, the armor or weapon itself is simply superior to that of standard items. That or it's specifically built to do a certain type of job better.

Aside from that --- There is an armor enhancement to lower Spell Failure (I just added it before I started talking to you.)


I'm asking questions because I don't fully understand the proposal. I can't give help since I don't yet understand the proposal.
Fair enough. I apologize.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I was thinking of these in terms of my own campaigns. My own campaigns are obscenely high-magic, and in that context this proposal might be a little unbalanced.

But for a more normal campaign, looks good. I can't comment more deeply until I crunch the numbers. So, I'll be crunching numbers. May edit this post or make a new one, depending.

[Narmy]

CHANGE LOG

Added the following weapon enhancements.
Disarm, Trip, Sunder, Feint.

Added the following weapon enhancements.
+1 AC vs Confirm Critical Threats.
-5% Spell Failure.

[Narmy]

I was thinking of these in terms of my own campaigns. My own campaigns are obscenely high-magic, and in that context this proposal might be a little unbalanced.

But for a more normal campaign, looks good. I can't comment more deeply until I crunch the numbers. So, I'll be crunching numbers. May edit this post or make a new one, depending. I fail to see how these would become imbalanced (Over-Powered) in a high magic campaign......

[Dienekes]

I was actually trying to develop something like this (still in the process really)

One thing you may want to add is that certain weapons and armor give bonuses to Intimidate (ex. the samurai helmet was supposed to scare people), or even Diplomacy (as a show of wealth and power in how intricate the weapon is)

Just a suggestion, as not all the improvements made to weapons were for actually improving their killing ability.

Overall though, I really like what you're doing.

[Narmy]

I was actually trying to develop something like this (still in the process really)

One thing you may want to add is that certain weapons and armor give bonuses to Intimidate (ex. the samurai helmet was supposed to scare people), or even Diplomacy (as a show of wealth and power in how intricate the weapon is)

Just a suggestion, as not all the improvements made to weapons were for actually improving their killing ability.

Overall though, I really like what you're doing.

I will take your suggestion and shall add those. I'm going to be adding fluff eventually to the enhancements.

So basically, your intimidation suggestion shall end up being something like.

Skulls, and corpses, other grusome figures, monsters, scarey symbols, and what not adorn/carved into the weapon.

The Diplomacy one shall be happy little things, pretty gems, and what not adorning/carved.

The weapon must be on your person/wielded, and the target must be capable of seeing the weapon clearly. Those would be the prerequisite for using those bonuses.


Well, hopefully you won't have to develop a system anymore once this is done.

Thank you very much for the help.

[Dienekes]

Anything to help.

Also with the Diplomacy bit, make sure to add that the GM must agree it's appropriate to add it. Otherwise you'll have adventures take out their pretty swords during a normal meeting to get what they want done.

[Narmy]

Well, I think that's standard, but yeah.


CHANGE LOG
Added Intimidate, and Diplomacy Enhancements.

[deuxhero]

I was interpreting your thing as something else.

Either way, we were both right in the way that we were talking.

At least, I was half-right, I just got combobulated, any way that's off-topic. BACK TO THE MATTER AT HAND --- SPORKS!

Yes, a fullplate could have 0 ACP, but hey. It's gonna cost them gold, and it's going to have to be made by a good blacksmith.

If you have problems with the acp right now for armors.

We can either increase the dc, the gold cost, or reduce the limit.

Suggestions if you want.

Make gold cost for stacking things exponential.

[Narmy]

I suppose that could work.. It would limit them from having an item with EVERY effect bonus.

Which realistically I suppose makes sense.

I'll think about that.

Though that still doesn't solve my problem of what all the base prices should be.

[ZaneLaCoix]

Two things:
-Do these enchantments stack with magical ones added later?
-For your -5% ASF, I would suggest the cost to be 1/2 of the Twilight Enchantment, as it's exactly 1/2 of what Twilight gives. so... 500 gold for a -5% reduction, or 1k gold for a 10% reduction... And if it can stack, 1.5k for a 15% reduction.

[Latronis]

Two things:
-Do these enchantments stack with magical ones added later?
-For your -5% ASF, I would suggest the cost to be 1/2 of the Twilight Enchantment, as it's exactly 1/2 of what Twilight gives. so... 500 gold for a -5% reduction, or 1k gold for a 10% reduction... And if it can stack, 1.5k for a 15% reduction.

Actually I think mundane enhancements that accomplish something similiar to magical enchantments should be slightly more expensive. There's far more investment in it from skill rather than magic

[Narmy]

The -5% is brought on by more maneuverable armor.
It fits closer, and it's easier to move around in.

Yes this does sort of give the exact sort of idea for the ACP reduction, but yeah.

So, The Twilight Enchantment would INDEED stack.

Seph, that you?
---------------------

Actually, you've got quite a good point there about costs.

See, that's pretty much the only part that I'm having trouble on, is cost, and I'm not getting enough opinions on costs to finalize those. I'll be doing some research for it later. For now, I'll put all the equal prices. Then, I'll work on perhaps increasing them due to being skill, and not magic. (Which would be easy once I have a base price set for all the items.

[ZaneLaCoix]

750g~1k gold range, perhaps for the -5%?
I don't think it should be more than the Twilight enchantment.
But, perhaps if we were to look at the Mithral (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral) modification for armors, we're looking at something between 1000~9000+ gold, depending on the type of armor you're looking at. It too, offers the same kind of reduction that Twilight does (thus Twilight Mithral Chainshirts are sexy for casters who suffer from ASF, or lack of armor proficiencies [0% ASF, and -0 Penalty]), only of a different kind.

[Narmy]

CHANGE LOG

Included into descriptions that the Critical Threat Range Enhancement does NOT stack with Keen, or Improved Critical.

Limit on Attack Bonus Enhancement Increased from 3 -> 5
Cost for Damage, and To Hit Bonus increased to 500 Gold Each.
Changed DC's for Damage, and To Hit Bonus Enhancements to 3

Increased the DC for Reduced Weight (Armor) from 4 -> 6

[Narmy]

Changelog

Name change of my system. Mundane Masterwork Enhancements.

I switched the two words around, sounded better to me. lol.

[Narmy]

December 28th Update

Critical Confirm Threat Price Increase to 1k Gold.
Changed the price of reduced weight items to 50 gold per lb on weapons, and 75 gold per lb on armors. Increased the cost of all armor enhancements, increased the cost of all weapon enhancements. DC's may have increased or decreased for some. Updated the rules on Intimidating and Diplomatic weapons to includ circumstancial bonus (DM RULE).

Possibly changed some of the max limits.

All prices are now exponential except for reduced weight, and Intimidating and Diplomatic upgrades.

More changes to the system MAY come -- Suggestions please, opinions on balance.

Updated



I just need to decide now which costs will not be exponential.

Updated the explanation / Fluff How in the nine hells did the term fluff come into creation?

[Narmy]

Updated, lots of changes.

Please rate, comment, P.E.A.C.H. and all that jazz.

[Latronis]

+1 critical threat range that doesn't stack is pretty crap for so much investment really, and truly only worthwhile IMO on weapons that only crit on 20's. I'd be inclined to just have it double the base critical threat range and keep it limited to 1 and non-stacking

[Narmy]

Funny you should comment on that.

I was contemplating removing that non stacking for a bit, but never really got comments on it.

Would you still be towards what you suggested if I removed the non stack.

I.E. it would stack.

[Latronis]

Well it would be an increase in the critical threat before the multipliers from improved critical\keen or after?

Also now that i think about I'm not sure circumstantial face bonuses are worth anything.. I would just let a crafter apply symbology that would grant such for no extra cost or difficulty. Though I'd probably increase the market price of it.

Such as the guild symbol of the Imperial well-wishers grants a +2 circumstance bonus to diplomacy checks against any character with an attitude of friendly towards to empire. Or somesuch

[Narmy]

Removes the faces.