Necromancer in 1st edition AD&D..opinions?

[Giegue]

I love necromancy, pure and simple. Hence, I love 3e and 3.5e for the dread necromancer class. my girlfriend refuses to play anything but 1e. I like most of 1e and the freedom it offers, but there is an utter dearth of necromancy for arcanists in that game. Hence when we finally get to play togther, I am thinking of playing a multiclass cleric/magic user to TRY and emulate a real necromancer(which 1e lacks). Anyway, I want to know what your opinions are on how to create a necromancer in 1e. Cleric/magic user as of now seams to be the only way to me beyond homebrew because magic users don't have enough necromancer in 1e to effectivly be a necro, and clerics do too much fighting to be a skiny evil guy in black robes who hides behind an army of undead and debuffs enemies.

Cleric/necromancer fits the bill ability wise, since by our rules for multiclassing you get the lowest armor grade of your two classes, which means a cleric/magic user is a robe wearer and thus at least in that respect is closer to the arcane necromancers of fantasy novels.

However, I want to know what you think of necromancers and necromancy in 1e, do you agree with me on cleric/magic user being the only way or can it be done with a pure magic user? if the latter, how can it be done without homebrew? I would like to know how you conpencate for the utter lack of necromancy spells for magic users in 1e.

(Note I am not on my own computer, and the computer I am on has no spell check function or word program, so please bear with any spelling mistakes I have, they will not be a regular occurance.)

[jmbrown]

By 1E I assume you're talking about AD&D. There aren't many options for a stereotypical black robed necromancer. Clerics are far better necromancers gaining animate dead as a 3rd level spell instead of a 5th level spell. Multiclassing so you have access to a magic-user's versatility is a good idea but not necessary.

[Giegue]

Yes, I do mean AD&D. Also, a real necromancer would not bash people's heads in with a mace. Hence RP wise, the multiclass is needed if you want to be the "black cloak" type of character often seen in fantasy which is what I am looking to do. though I agree that you basicly need cleric levels or homebrew in 1e to effectivly be a necromancer. I did see a somewhat overpowered 1e necromancer class meant to be used for for BBEGs that followed the typical "black cloak" modle on dragon's foot.com(which is a great resource for 1e.). I suppose if my girlfriend let me I could modify that class to be used for a PC instead of BBEG. It actually gets a lesser version of animate dead as a level 2, some cleric spells, some necromantic magic user spells and some homebrew spells just for it. Its a good framework for a homebrew but it's spell progression is overpowered, hence why the class needs modification for a PC. So, for what I am looking for it's either homebrew or multiclass I would guess.

[Optimystik]

{Scrubbed}

[jmbrown]

Yes, I do mean AD&D. Also, a real necromancer would not bash people's heads in with a mace. Hence RP wise, the multiclass is needed if you want to be the "black cloak" type of character often seen in fantasy which is what I am looking to do. though I agree that you basicly need cleric levels or homebrew in 1e to effectivly be a necromancer. I did see a somewhat overpowered 1e necromancer class meant to be used for for BBEGs that followed the typical "black cloak" modle on dragon's foot.com(which is a great resource for 1e.). I suppose if my girlfriend let me I could modify that class to be used for a PC instead of BBEG. It actually gets a lesser version of animate dead as a level 2, some cleric spells, some necromantic magic user spells and some homebrew spells just for it. Its a good framework for a homebrew but it's spell progression is overpowered, hence why the class needs modification for a PC. So, for what I am looking for it's either homebrew or multiclass I would guess.

There's no need to restrict your power just to adhere to a cosmetic trope. A person with an army of skeletons at his command doesn't have to engage in melee if he doesn't want to and doesn't need to wear heavy armor. Your spells lack the utility of a wizard (read magic, control flames, summon monster) but you can still buff your allies, debuff your enemies, and turn opposing undead.

[Asbestos]

There's no need to restrict your power just to adhere to a cosmetic trope. A person with an army of skeletons at his command doesn't have to engage in melee if he doesn't want to and doesn't need to wear heavy armor. Your spells lack the utility of a wizard (read magic, control flames, summon monster) but you can still buff your allies, debuff your enemies, and turn opposing undead.

Exactly, just because the class can wear heavier armor or thwack people with a mace doesn't mean you are required to do that. It seems to me that you're just looking for a cleric that lacks access to some cleric equipment.

[Giegue]

Yes and no, I am looking for a necromancer. A necromancer should not have the ability to melee, even if he wanted. I am thinking about homebrewing, actually. At the least I will carry over some 3.5e spells to 1e and make a 1e version of my lesser animate dead spell I created for 3.5e... The lesser animate dead spell for 3.5 was a weaker version of animate dead for wizards and sorcs and was a level 2 spell. I could port it as well as the other necro spells from 3.5 over to 1e with modifications. I would also port over some other useful wizard/sorc spells from 3.5 for 1e and perhaps even add cantraps to 1e if my girlfriend lets me. We have discussed homebrewing before and she's fine with it since we are going to make an evil Paladin vairent for 1e, so if I propose my ideas to her for spell list modifications I am sure she would be fine with them.

[Asbestos]

Yes and no, I am looking for a necromancer. A necromancer should not have the ability to melee, even if he wanted.

But... but... even the Dread Necromancer had a decent attack progession for an arcane caster and could start with a martial weapon.

[Giegue]

Yeah, but the dread necromancer can still be a manipulator with his high charisma and all. My reasons are mostly RP related, my character concept is a mage who pratices the dark arts, worships evil gods, and is a scheming, manipultive, evil mastermind type rather then a big, burly "blood knight" bully type. Thus, multiclassing wizard/cleric makes more sense since you need both high wisdom and high int, which fit my character concept. High wisdom and low int would not work for the kind of character I am going for since I can't see forest gump as an evil overlord type...and if I went pure cleric and decided to put my points in int instead ot strength I would be gimping myself more then if I multiclassed. I guess if I want an evil overlord/dark lord type I should just forget necromancy, focuse on int and charisma and use cohorts and living minions instead of undead or just suck it up and get to work homebrewing?

[Hoggmaster]

You need to 'find' a copy of the complete necromancer's handbook, if i remember correctly, there were variants for necromancers (both clerical and wizardly ones)

[Giegue]

Isn't the complete necromancer's handbook for later additions of D&D, though? This is 1st edition/AD&D we are talking about, not 3.5e, 3e or 2e. If it's not 1st edition/AD&D it won't cut it for my girlfriend. If such a book exists for 1st edition, I have surely never heard of it, and it is not a product of TSR either. I know all the TSR 1e/AD&D books and such a text is not among them. Is it by another publisher or something? Or is it one of those homebrew but available to everybody things like the Tome of Necromancy or Tome of Fiends for 3.5e? I do recall a book called "The complete necromancer," but it was a 2nd edition book, not 1st edition. However, 2nd edition is close enough to 1st edition where I could port some of the materal over to 1st edition

[sadi]

The completes are second, which is basically first plus unearthed arcana/non weapon proficiencies and dieties and demigods for the above 18 stat info. THACO is the only major thing missing.

[Ashtar]

Use the Undead Master Kit from the Complete book of Necromancers (AD&D 2nd ed, but still very close to 1st Ed). The jist of the kit is: Be able to command Undead as a priest of the same level, but lose an extra school of spellcasting (Alteration, Illusion and Major Divination).

Also the book is replete with excellent spells for necros. I DMed a campaign for two necromancers in 2nd. Was excellent, if very un-quotable unless you consort with strange people (like students in an autopsy practice class) on a regular basis.

[Giegue]

Thanks for all the tips. I am not going to use any of the kits but I am porting over the spells from the 2e and the complete necromancer, as well as porting over some spells from the dragon'sfoot class like the weaker, level 2 version of animate dead, a level 1 spell that allows a magic user to command undead as a cleric of the same level, the weaker version of death spell, and a few of the level 9 spells that looked fun like Finger of Doom.(a more powerful version finger of death)

[ken-do-nim]

1st edition was out for over 10 years, and it has a lot of support outside the core books. There are a bajillion classes available for 1E in Dragon magazine, not to mention White Wolf, Polyhedron, and 3rd party supplements like the ones from Bard Games. In my 1E game, I use the Mystic class from the Judges Guild Dungeoneer magazine issue #16, and I think it fits the bill pretty well for what you are describing. If you send me your snail mail address I can send you a photocopy.

[ken-do-nim]

{Scrubbed}

It might surprise you to know that 1E is still a very active system, still in print thanks to a 3rd party clone and there are plenty of new adventures coming out for it regularly.

[Giegue]

I sent you a PM with my email and such and I happily await my response, though I do have a question, is intelligence of any use to a Mysitc? I know they cast on wisdom most likely, but my character concept is a robed wearing schemer/evil mastermind type practices the dark arts and worships evil deities, so I would want a high enough intelligence to be a schemer who is capable of planing far in advance and thinking of plans, strategies and tactics and such, a high enough wisdom for the plans to actually be practical and not be something a five year old child could thwart. Decent charisma would also be nice, but not needed.

[ken-do-nim]

I sent you a PM with my email and such and I happily await my response, though I do have a question, is intelligence of any use to a Mysitc? I know they cast on wisdom most likely, but my character concept is a robed wearing schemer/evil mastermind type practices the dark arts and worships evil deities, so I would want a high enough intelligence to be a schemer who is capable of planing far in advance and thinking of plans, strategies and tactics and such, a high enough wisdom for the plans to actually be practical and not be something a five year old child could thwart. Decent charisma would also be nice, but not needed.

It's late so I'll check tomorrow, but I wanted you to know that I also found the Deathmaster in Dragon #76. Small snippet:

"Death masters are spellcasters with an affinity for death and the undead. Their research and dealings with such creatures have led them down a path of deeper understanding of the unlife and of the power it holds. As they journey into the realm of unlife, many come to hate the living and life itself. Many death masters raise armies of undead creatures which they unleash upon unsuspecting people around them."

[Giegue]

The death master sounds like exactly what I am looking for. If you could somehow send it to me, that would be nice, or even just send me a site with free pdfs of these magizens if such a thing exists.

[ken-do-nim]

The death master sounds like exactly what I am looking for. If you could somehow send it to me, that would be nice, or even just send me a site with free pdfs of these magizens if such a thing exists.

I sent you the whole pdf of dragon #76, enjoy. The Deathmaster starts on page 11. It stresses that this an npc class only, but that's because the author doesn't expect you to play evil characters.

[Giegue]

Thanks, it looks interesting, I may still want to check out the mystic too, though. I will look for a pdf of the magazine with that class in it. What was the name and issue again?

[wumpus]

I suspect that there was no serious attempt to balance the class. Making an NPC class allows the DM to say "don't do that" to the NPCs without hearing them whine for the rest of the session. I don't remember this being much of an issue for the Deathmaster, but there was this ninja NPC that was more overpowered than a 3.5 Druid...

[LibraryOgre]

If you can track them down, grab the Wizards Spell Compendium series (4 volumes). While it was produced in 2e, the two systems are fairly compatible, and so you'll probably find a number of necromancy spells in there. Also, try to track down the 2e supplement "The Complete Book of Necromancers." Again, while 2e, the two are compatible, and it may give you both ideas and some spell options.

Or, alternatively, find a way to stay 10th level magic-user forever. ;-)

[Giegue]

Yeah, I may just add more necro spells to the magic user list, mainly from 2e. The death master dose not seam like it would fit well for a PC, from looking at it, with the large amount of special abilities and only 13 levels of content and all.

[wumpus]

[10th level Magic user forever]

I think you mean somewhere like 5th. 10th was probably already wizard.

Man, I feel old.

[LibraryOgre]

[10th level Magic user forever]

I think you mean somewhere like 5th. 10th was probably already wizard.

Man, I feel old.

Looked it up to be sure. It's 10th; at 11 (your last HD), you hit Wizard.

[Tiktakkat]

If you can track them down, grab the Wizards Spell Compendium series (4 volumes). While it was produced in 2e, the two systems are fairly compatible, and so you'll probably find a number of necromancy spells in there. Also, try to track down the 2e supplement "The Complete Book of Necromancers." Again, while 2e, the two are compatible, and it may give you both ideas and some spell options.

That.
If you want a decent selection of necromancy spells, you need the WSC, which will give you all of the later 2nd ed spells, which finally expand necromancy into something cool enough to be functional without having to just shrug in exasperation and go back to blasting.
Some of the more enjoyable ones are in the CBN, but for the best selection dig up a WSC.

As it goes, I am not a big fan of kits and other 2e variant material, so I do not think you will much there with a ban, but particularly the CBN is a fun thing to read for some evil inspiration.


Or, alternatively, find a way to stay 10th level magic-user forever. ;-)

Nice one.

[ken-do-nim]

Yeah, I may just add more necro spells to the magic user list, mainly from 2e. The death master dose not seam like it would fit well for a PC, from looking at it, with the large amount of special abilities and only 13 levels of content and all.

I've actually heard it is fairly well balanced, but I have no firsthand experience.

Anyhow, the AD&D Mystic is in Dungeoneer #16 by Judges Guild (as well as the OD&D Warlock). I don't have it in pdf, but I've brought a photocopy with me to work and if you pm me with your mailing address, I'll send it out to you.

Here's the opening blurb: "Mystics are a sub-class of Magic-Users who specialize in many of the darker arts of Sorcery, that which is generally referred to as Black Magic. Their spells can be separated into three main groups: Necromantic, Summoning, and Divination." (slightly paraphrased)

[Giegue]

That sounds good as well, actually, and I PMed you my email already. If for some reason you did not get my PM it's [email protected]. I frankly don't much care about releasing that email since it's been released numerous other places and I really don't care who spams me, I can just delete it. I have a private email for important stuff, the one I listed here is just for IMing, joining forums and "fun."

[Jayabalard]

Isn't the complete necromancer's handbook for later additions of D&D, though? This is 1st edition/AD&D we are talking about, not 3.5e, 3e or 2e. If it's not 1st edition/AD&D it won't cut it for my girlfriend. If such a book exists for 1st edition, I have surely never heard of it, and it is not a product of TSR either. I know all the TSR 1e/AD&D books and such a text is not among them. Is it by another publisher or something? Or is it one of those homebrew but available to everybody things like the Tome of Necromancy or Tome of Fiends for 3.5e? I do recall a book called "The complete necromancer," but it was a 2nd edition book, not 1st edition. However, 2nd edition is close enough to 1st edition where I could port some of the materal over to 1st edition2e is almost completely compatible with 1e, so it would be a good resource for homebrewing your own necromancer class.

[hamlet]

Ken-do-nim beat me to mentioning the deathmaster.

There's no need for a mechanical necromancer to be a necromancer in 1e. Merely create a magic-user, cleric, or magic-user/cleric and emphasize the necromantic type spells.

[Jayabalard]

There's no need for a mechanical necromancer to be a necromancer in 1e. Merely create a magic-user, cleric, or magic-user/cleric and emphasize the necromantic type spells.If you re-read the OP, you'll note that he's already tried this, but due to a distinct lack of Necromantic spells this has been unsatisfying.

[ken-do-nim]

That sounds good as well, actually, and I PMed you my email already. If for some reason you did not get my PM it's [email protected]. I frankly don't much care about releasing that email since it's been released numerous other places and I really don't care who spams me, I can just delete it. I have a private email for important stuff, the one I listed here is just for IMing, joining forums and "fun."

We have a disconnect - I'm asking you for your POSTAL mailing address, not your email address.

[Giegue]

Thank you for specifying, but I am not allowed to give that out since I do not own the house in which I live. In other words, I'm a still a teenager, and thus live at my parrent's house.

[Matthew]

There was a first edition AD&D Necromancer class published in White Dwarf back in the day, but I couldn't tell you what issue off hand.