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xxmorriganxx
2009-12-13, 07:04 PM
Hey folks. New playground member here :smallsmile:.

Today I bring to you a problem of epic proportion...help with building three epic level characters.

I'm planning on running a 3.5 campaign in the next few weeks that tests my PCs with traps, puzzles and well, sometimes sheer luck.

Because these PCs are the kind that get all of their builds off the internet and have a nasty habit of breaking every rule they find, I'm going to fight fire with fire and ask you lovely people for your toughest level 20+ Rogues, Sorcerrers and Barbarians (my big bosses in the game.)

I'll take suggestions on anything from feats to skills to abilites. Anything helps.

Much obliged!

Ernir
2009-12-13, 07:13 PM
What level will they be playing at? Do you have any information regarding what they will be playing? What is your target level for these baddies (level 21 or 121)? Something you would especially like to see?

Eldariel
2009-12-13, 07:23 PM
"Toughest within reasonable limits" is probably what you want? :P 'cause smashing your PCs to smithereens is probably a slightly unfun way to go about things.


Well, level 20 Sorcerer...you could make it completely insane or merely very challenging. Few things:
1) Don't give 'er Epic Spellcasting unless players have access to it. It'll just break things.
2) Don't make 'er Incantatrix [PGtF] since while it's the strongest PrC ever, the issue is that it's the strongest PrC ever. Having two-three books worth of buff spells persisted on all the bosses along with heavily reduced metamagic costs for insane spells and such does not for a good encounter make.
3) Don't use Dweomerkeeper [CDiv Web Enhancement]. Supernatural Spell is cheese of the highest order.

Now, with the obligatories out of the way, let's get to some suggestions. Sorcerers should PrC out. Fast. Because Sorcerer-levels grant no benefits whatsoever. Classes that may interest a Sorcerer:
- 1 level of Mindbender [CArc] - grants Telepathy, I'm sure you can figure out how that's useful. Mindsight [Lords of Madness] further makes hiding from the Telepath practically impossible.
- Mage of the Arcane Order [CArc] - grants access to any spell as a full-round action. Absolutely incredible for a Sorcerer given it completely bypasses their natural Spells Known-limitation. They have the slots to pay back the tax. You can enter with Arcane Preparation (in the same book).
- Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [CArc] - an excellent boss PrC, these are very tough to kill. Though be sure the players are up to the task; these are VERY tough to kill. Entry requirements are quite harsh for a Sorcerer, but it's doable and quite interesting for a boss fight (Veils enable a sort of a puzzleish approach).
- Sandshaper [Sandstorm] - one level adds a lot of Spells Known. It's quite handy.
- Fatespinner [CArc] - very good for manipulating the odds. Manipulating odds is always nice.
- Archmage - if you can enter it, it's very useful. Expensive to enter though.

Just make use of their naturally high Charisma with Charms, Dominates, Planar Bindings, Use Magic Device and such; that's really the biggest thing Sorcs have going on for them alongside few unique spells (Wings of Cover/Flurry [Races of the Dragon] being big standouts; Spellwarp Sniper [CScoundrel] using Wings of Flurry is terrifying)


But the Sorcerer is really the easy one. The more interesting (build-wise) individuals are the Barbarian and the Rogue. For the Barbarian, I strongly suggest Runescarred Berserker [Unapproachable East] if at all possible. Instead of being a basic "runs up to you and either kills you or doesn't"-type of Barbarian (which are as easy to build as they're boring to play against), he suddenly has access to various spell effects to alter the environment and to surprise the players. Anti-Magic Field is a particularly powerful option (that is available) in cramped quarters; few can stand up to a Barbarian without magic.

And the Rogue; you could give 'er a level of Shadowdancer or the Dark-template [Tome of Magic] or Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic] or Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) to pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]. Then the fun can begin. Combined with Use Magic Device, he'll be quite hard to pin down for unprepared folk, and quite deadly.

Couple of levels of Swordsage [Tome of Battle] and maybe Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior] with Daring Outlaw-feat [Complete Scoundrel] and he'd be fine. Rogues don't really want or need PrCs; best Rogues are often straight Rogues (as long as not adding magic, which of course makes anything better; Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5 is a very potent character for example).


What kinds of directions did you have in mind for the three?

xxmorriganxx
2009-12-13, 07:34 PM
What level will they be playing at? Do you have any information regarding what they will be playing? What is your target level for these baddies (level 21 or 121)? Something you would especially like to see?

They PCs are going to be somewhere around level 10 to begin with, and level up throughout.

These epic characters might be around level 20-21, or get progressively bigger (for instance, the rogue being the lowest level because that's their first boss, the barbarian being second and the wizard being the most powerful). There will be anywhere from 5 to 7 PCs, so that should factor in to their CR.

As Eldariel said, toughest within reasonable limits is what I'm going for.

I made a no-no and limited them to the PH1 and 2 for starting builds because they've started playing the same type of characters over and over again, so it's anybody's guess what they'll play.

I'm acutally hoping they can survive the game with these limitations. I'd like to challenge them to start thinking more during the game, rather than googling their next step.

xxmorriganxx
2009-12-13, 07:41 PM
"Toughest within reasonable limits" is probably what you want? :P 'cause smashing your PCs to smithereens is probably a slightly unfun way to go about things.


Well, level 20 Sorcerer...you could make it completely insane or merely very challenging. Few things:
1) Don't give 'er Epic Spellcasting unless players have access to it. It'll just break things.
2) Don't make 'er Incantatrix [PGtF] since while it's the strongest PrC ever, the issue is that it's the strongest PrC ever. Having two-three books worth of buff spells persisted on all the bosses along with heavily reduced metamagic costs for insane spells and such does not for a good encounter make.
3) Don't use Dweomerkeeper [CDiv Web Enhancement]. Supernatural Spell is cheese of the highest order.

Now, with the obligatories out of the way, let's get to some suggestions. Sorcerers should PrC out. Fast. Because Sorcerer-levels grant no benefits whatsoever. Classes that may interest a Sorcerer:
- 1 level of Mindbender [CArc] - grants Telepathy, I'm sure you can figure out how that's useful. Mindsight [Lords of Madness] further makes hiding from the Telepath practically impossible.
- Mage of the Arcane Order [CArc] - grants access to any spell as a full-round action. Absolutely incredible for a Sorcerer given it completely bypasses their natural Spells Known-limitation. They have the slots to pay back the tax. You can enter with Arcane Preparation (in the same book).
- Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil [CArc] - an excellent boss PrC, these are very tough to kill. Though be sure the players are up to the task; these are VERY tough to kill. Entry requirements are quite harsh for a Sorcerer, but it's doable and quite interesting for a boss fight (Veils enable a sort of a puzzleish approach).
- Sandshaper [Sandstorm] - one level adds a lot of Spells Known. It's quite handy.
- Fatespinner [CArc] - very good for manipulating the odds. Manipulating odds is always nice.
- Archmage - if you can enter it, it's very useful. Expensive to enter though.

Just make use of their naturally high Charisma with Charms, Dominates, Planar Bindings, Use Magic Device and such; that's really the biggest thing Sorcs have going on for them alongside few unique spells (Wings of Cover/Flurry [Races of the Dragon] being big standouts; Spellwarp Sniper [CScoundrel] using Wings of Flurry is terrifying)


But the Sorcerer is really the easy one. The more interesting (build-wise) individuals are the Barbarian and the Rogue. For the Barbarian, I strongly suggest Runescarred Berserker [Unapproachable East] if at all possible. Instead of being a basic "runs up to you and either kills you or doesn't"-type of Barbarian (which are as easy to build as they're boring to play against), he suddenly has access to various spell effects to alter the environment and to surprise the players. Anti-Magic Field is a particularly powerful option (that is available) in cramped quarters; few can stand up to a Barbarian without magic.

And the Rogue; you could give 'er a level of Shadowdancer or the Dark-template [Tome of Magic] or Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis [Tome of Magic] or Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) to pick up Hide in Plain Sight and Darkstalker [Lords of Madness]. Then the fun can begin. Combined with Use Magic Device, he'll be quite hard to pin down for unprepared folk, and quite deadly.

Couple of levels of Swordsage [Tome of Battle] and maybe Swashbuckler [Complete Warrior] with Daring Outlaw-feat [Complete Scoundrel] and he'd be fine. Rogues don't really want or need PrCs; best Rogues are often straight Rogues (as long as not adding magic, which of course makes anything better; Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Spellwarp Sniper 5 is a very potent character for example).


What kinds of directions did you have in mind for the three?

Great info! =D Thanks!

I especially like the barbarian. It changed the way I'd planned to play him entierly! Now rather than easily taking him down with spells and ranged attacks things are going to get much harder for my cater-favoring players. Hope they enjoy it!

Also, the rogue is exactly what I was looking for. Something slippery and...well...something they're going to have a hell of a time trying to find!

xxmorriganxx
2009-12-13, 07:55 PM
Oh, I just had a bit of an after thought.

If I decided not to limit them to the PHs, many of them will choose psions (which one in particular has played three games in a row, which I plan to break him of). Psions generally are bad in our campaigns, because some how they always overpower non-psions, god knows how. Hence there usually being a high number of psionic characters, tempting me to throw in far too many anti-psionic creatures and items out of spite.

Also, one will want to play an Apostle of Peace...which at first sounded great to me until one of my friends said that same person shattered their last campagin with it.

I'd gladly let him play an APoP if I weren't so worried about him essentially talking his way out of a combat with the bosses. That would be most annoying, and in my opinion defeat the purpose of building a campaign to challenge a multitude of their skills.

Glimbur
2009-12-13, 10:31 PM
I'd gladly let him play an APoP if I weren't so worried about him essentially talking his way out of a combat with the bosses. That would be most annoying, and in my opinion defeat the purpose of building a campaign to challenge a multitude of their skills.

You don't have to fight everything. It could be satisfying for the Apostle to be able to talk down one of them. Then have the second "boss" have been Dominate Person'd by the Sorcerer boss, and therefore (hopefully) immune to being calmed down. That might get dispelled, but the sorc is higher caster level than they will be at that point and that makes for an interesting fight too.

Then by the time they meet the Sorc he's a lich and therefore immune to [mind affecting]. Just don't make the apostle's life difficult by having every monster be immune to his shtick.

Eldariel
2009-12-14, 07:16 AM
Oh, I just had a bit of an after thought.

If I decided not to limit them to the PHs, many of them will choose psions (which one in particular has played three games in a row, which I plan to break him of). Psions generally are bad in our campaigns, because some how they always overpower non-psions, god knows how. Hence there usually being a high number of psionic characters, tempting me to throw in far too many anti-psionic creatures and items out of spite.

Just use the normal transparency of Spell Resistance also counting as Power Resistance and anti-magic working against psionics too; that pretty much ensures the Psions don't break anything as they have less broken powers than casters have spells.

Just the "You may only invest Power Points equal to your Manifester Level to one power" and "Using Metapsionics always consumes your Psionic Focus" tends to be enough to keep them under control.


Also, one will want to play an Apostle of Peace...which at first sounded great to me until one of my friends said that same person shattered their last campagin with it.

I'd gladly let him play an APoP if I weren't so worried about him essentially talking his way out of a combat with the bosses. That would be most annoying, and in my opinion defeat the purpose of building a campaign to challenge a multitude of their skills.

AoP is...an incredibly powerful class, especially combined with Vow of Peace. It's a fast progression full caster; much like Ur-Priest. I would suggest thinking twice about allowing it, especially since Book of Exalted Deeds can be very disrupting to your average adventuring party due to the Exalted requirements and such; they can't kill (well, the AoP can't kill anyways; there are some loopholes in the limitation), they have to try and subdue the living opponents and so on.