[4e] Wizard cheese me

[Guinea Anubis]

I am helping a friend make a wizard for a game. The DM is a guy that is power gamer when he is a PC and will min max to no end, so we are not expecting any less when he is a DM. He is starting the party off at level one, but I would like to know what powers are the must haves and what feats stack well, ext.

So please help me make a wizard that will be so full of cheese he will have mice following him around.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Step 1: Take Incantrix
Step 2: Abuse Metamagic
Step 3: ...

PROFIT!

[Boci]

Step 1: Take Incantrix
Step 2: Abuse Metamagic
Step 3: ...

PROFIT!

Its 4E. A DM cannot power game that well in 4E, so I don't think it will be too much of a problem. There's probably a 4E handbook for wizards somewhere though. Ah here we go: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:6RTuKFnVcIoJ:brilliantgameologists. com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D594.60+4e+wizard+handbook&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

[Mando Knight]

Orb of Imposition, Sleep. At level 11, go into the Spiral Tower PP and pick Orb. Use a Cunning Weapon. Never retrain Sleep.

[Nightson]

4th edition.

There is no cheese at level one. Get implement expertise as your feat for sure. Play what looks fun, optimization isn't very hard, also I suggest sitting down with the DM and ask him how tough he plans to make the monsters. Synergy is the thing to look out for in 4e monsters since optimization doesn't really exist. Unless he creates custom broken monsters of course, but that's a separate issue.

[erikun]

As already stated, Orb of Imposition + Cunning weapon + Spell Focus = -14 to saves at high levels, assuming 18 WIS to start with. That completely locks down everything but Solo monsters, and you only need another -2 to lock them down. Still handy at low levels.

Sleep, as stated, for daily lockdown. Won't work if you DM rules that monsters wake up when dealt damage, though. (likely a common ruling) It's still an amazing spell anyways.

Expand Spell feat, deal slightly less damage for larger area. Expanded Scorching Burst is handy at clearing out minions, but stuff like Expanded Color Spray makes the feat excellent.

[Boci]

As already stated, Orb of Imposition + Cunning weapon + Spell Focus = -14 to saves at high levels, assuming 18 WIS to start with. That completely locks down everything but Solo monsters, and you only need another -2 to lock them down. Still handy at low levels.

Wasn't one of those items nerfed in a november update?

[erikun]

This thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134827&highlight=november), with the update here (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/UpdateNov2009.pdf). It was the Orb of Ultimate Impostion item that got nerfed. I don't recall what it did (extra 2 penality per tier, I think) but the -4 from a Cunning weapon is better.

[Asbestos]

I am helping a friend make a wizard for a game. The DM is a guy that is power gamer when he is a PC and will min max to no end, so we are not expecting any less when he is a DM. He is starting the party off at level one, but I would like to know what powers are the must haves and what feats stack well, ext.

So please help me make a wizard that will be so full of cheese he will have mice following him around.

Wait! It sounds like you are just trying to make a Wizard that will survive and achieve in his role, the sleep king might not be as useful (especially since you're starting at level one and it is your ONLY daily ability, you know, usable about 1/4 of the time at best.)

Key question: How many levels do you envision this game going on for? As at different levels and for different goals different builds are 'optimal'.

[rayne_dragon]

The current best with all the errata is the illusionist with orb of imposition. Here's the long of it, as well as a quick how to do a frostcheese summoner, which is also potentially very dangerous and cheesey.

Race: Gnome, Eladrin, or anything with +2 int and wis
Take 18 Int minimum (after racial mods), up Wis and Con as much as possible while leaving room for feat requirements. You can also take any impliment to start with (staff or tome can both be nice), but it'll cost a feat in paragon.

At Wills: Thunderwave, and that new illusion power they just released (winged horde) if allowed.

Encounter powers (keep in mind some of the ones from dragon may be better, I'm mostly only familiar with the PHB and Arcane Power:
1 - Grasping shadows
3 - Color Spray (switch to fire shroud when you get Improved Orb of Imposition)
7 - Enemies Abound (great if you have a rogue)
13 - Prismatic Burst
17 - pick whatever you want
23 - Deceptive Shadows
27 - Steal Time

Daily powers:
1 - Flaming Sphere (for auto damage) and Sleep
5 - Visions of Avarice and Web or Glitterdust
9 - Face of Death and Wall of Fire
15 - Prismatic Beams and Evard's Dreadful Mist
19 - Evard's Black Tentacles and any other spell
25 - Prismatic Spray and any other spell
29 - Legion's Hold and Visions of Wrath

Heroic Feats (*ed feats are most important):
Expand Spell (you may want to retrain later), Dual Impliment Spellcasting*, Impliment Expertise (sword or whatever your cunning weapon is)*, any feat that lets you use a sword as an impliment*, Phantom Echoes*, Destructive Wizardry, Quickdraw

Paragon Feats:
Spell Focus*, Second Implement (if you don't start with orb of imposition)*, Improved Orb of Imposition*, Arcane Reach, Psychic Lock

Epic Feats:
Arcane Mastery*, Quickened Spellcasting*, Irresistable Flame, Spell Accuracy, Wizard Impliment Expertise

Paragon Path: Blood Mage, Epic Destiny: Any, generally Demigod, Archlich, or Archmage are the best options for extra spell uses and abilities useful to a wizard.

Recommended Items (* are vital):
+max orb*, +max cunning weapons*, +max thunderwave staff, staff of ruin, +1 master's wands, +1 orb of ultimate imposition, +min tomes of various sorts, Phantom Chaussures or Air Striders, Ankhmon's Bracers*, Illusionist's Gloves*, Laurel Circlet, Cloak of Distortion or Invisiblity, Opal Ring of Rememberance*, Ring of Shadow Guard, Violet Solitaire*, Foe Stone, Exodus Knife


Basically, the point of this build is inflict as many nasty status effects on as many enemies as possible for as long as possible along with having some options for serious damage on top of that. Orb of imposition, a cunning weapon, illusionist's gloves and spell focus combined can make it impossible or nearly impossible for enemies to break free of save ends effects, even if they're solos. Blood mage with thunderwave, wall of fire and the thunderwave staff give a number of options for causing a lot of damage as well. Of course, if you want a different prestige path, you can switch it for something else. Ankmon's Bracers let you get healing while harming your foe. This build also requires some patience since it takes until late heroic tier to start becoming more effective than any other build. You may want to start off as a staff wizard until paragon, then take orb of imposition, as staff wizard gives an initial burst of survivability until you can start abusing save penalties and blood mage. At epic the focus shifts from maxing save penalties to maximizing spell usage by taking an epic destiny, feats and items that grant you more spell uses and action points. Violet Solitaire and Arcane mastery are great for this. Also, if you worry about being able to hit the BBEG, take Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, switch down to an orb of ultimate imposition +1 as your main weapon when you want to cast it, do anything else you can to reduce your hit chance, and just miss him with it, then orb and ulimate orb the save then AP and use anything that will block line of sight to anywhere. Improved orb of imposition with slowly kill it while you and your allies can pelt it from afar to speed up the process.

The other build you might want to give a shot is a frostcheese summoner. Basically you want to take staff of defense and tome of binding for impliments, leather armour proficiency, lasting frost and winter touched for feats, mostly cold powers for encounter powers and mostly summons for dailies (although any spell listed above can be useful to substitute just to be able to have something other than cold damage). Take the rimetongue caller prestige path and you'll have a deadly army of monsters at your command, ready to freeze to death any opponents not immune to cold. At epic the focus of action points and more daily spells remains the same as for the other build. You'll also want to focus on upping your defenses as much as you can to make your summons more durable.

For utilities for both builds I recommend taking spells that get you out of trouble, such as shield, wizard's sidestep and blur. You should try to remain back from any combat (despite hopefully decent AC) and attack at range with spells or summons (visions of avarice can ensure nobody gets close to you) and use thunderwave to get rid of anyone pestering you. Oh, and not blasting your own party is extremely important.

[Asbestos]

My level 1 suggestions:
Orb of Imposition:
At-wills: Thunderwave, one of the powerful Illusion at-wills.
Encounter: Orbmaster's Incendiary Detonation. (While many feel this is inferior to Grasping Shadows, it gives you something great to do with your Orb of Imposition that 75% of the time (or more if you have Flaming Sphere readied) you aren't using it with Sleep) You can retrain this when you get another (save ends) spell.
Daily: Sleep, Flaming Sphere.

Feats: Leather Armor Prof. (for keeping yourself alive) or Implement Expertise (for hitting stuff)

Oh, and be a Deva.

[cupkeyk]

Level 1 cheese is hard. Uhh lets see the feat slot is definitely implement expertise. and +2 int race. Human might actually look good to get enlarge spell at this point. at wills are thunderwave and winged horde, if human add chilling cloud. encounter is grasping shadows and daily is flaming sphere. for implement mastery, tome of readiness or staff of defence. array 18, 12, 12, 12, 10, 10, 8.

Mind you this is not what i would call cheese, but this is a very survivable level 1 wizard. its not even optimized to be anything good at high levels. (except maybe a tome illusory wall juggler)

[tcrudisi]

At level 1 as a Wizard? Well, how long do you expect the game to last? If you expect it to actually make it to level 30, I'd start with a Gnome and go Illusionist, picking up Orb of Imposition at paragon level. If you expect the game to last a few sessions or levels, then I'd go Deva and get the Orb of Imposition from the start.

Leather Armor Proficiency at level 1
Implement Expertise at level 2
Gnome Phantasmist at level 4 (if you are a Gnome Illusionist)

Definitely take Sleep as your daily if you are a Deva Orb of Imposition Wizard, as it's ridiculously good... so good that at level 30 it will still be your bread and butter.

I second the person who said Thunderwave ... and probably a good illusion spell for your other at-will. Encounter power doesn't matter so much.

If it's a game that won't last long: Int 19 Wis 18 Con 11. If it will last at least until paragon levels: Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 12, Con 12 to start off (to qualify for Spell Focus at level 11).

[Kurald Galain]

If you want cheese, pick up two or three Salves of Power to enable you to use Sleep multiple times per day.

And yes, even at level one it's a solid spell. Sure, it doesn't work all the time, but it's an area effect. Drop it on two or three enemies, ask the warlord for a bonus, use Elven Accuracy if you have it, then tack Imposition on one of the enemies you hit. That gives you good odds of dropping an enemy unconscious.

Otherwise, basically what rayne_dragon said, except replace 7.Enemies Abound (which is pretty awful if you do the math on it) with 7.Twist of Space.

[greenknight]

At level 1, you aren't going to be affording Salves of Power. In fact, you won't be even considering them until around Level 7. So forget you even heard that advice for now.

As for cheese, start by asking your DM just how much damage a 20lb rock would do when falling on someone from 25'. Then take a good look at Mage Hand. Also, for laughs, ask what happens when you try to conjure a second Mage Hand. If it dispels the first, that's 2 Mage Hands per round...

At low levels, you aren't going to want to get in melee range of anything, so don't worry about Thunderwave for now either. If you do want to play with it, wait until Paragon and make sure you will qualify for the Arcane Reach feat. That's when Thunderwave can be really amazing, especially if you also have something like the Enlarge Spell feat. But until then, I recommend Illusory Ambush and Scorching Burst.

Probably the best of the Encounter powers is Grasping Shadows, especially if you've got one or two members in the party who can move enemies around. As for your daily powers, Flaming Sphere is probably the pick of them right now, but both Horrid Whispers and Phantom Chasm have a lot to recommend them as well. Sleep is great later on when you can start imposing some serious save penalties, but not right now.

[Kurald Galain]

As for cheese, start by asking your DM just how much damage a 20lb rock would do when falling on someone from 25'. Then take a good look at Mage Hand.
Clever, but not RAW.



At low levels, you aren't going to want to get in melee range of anything, so don't worry about Thunderwave for now either.
In Soviet Russia, melee gets into range of you.

You can't always avoid enemies from moving up to you, and when they do, you'll be glad to have an at-will close attack. Also, as soon as you start getting zone powers (such as, oh, at level one) pushing enemies into there is a useful strategy. TW is one of the best at-wills in the game for a reason.

[greenknight]

Clever, but not RAW.

That's true. But still...


You can't always avoid enemies from moving up to you, and when they do, you'll be glad to have an at-will close attack.

No, for a number of reasons. First, most of the time the enemies would have had to get through your allies to get to you. So your close attack is more than likely going to affect an ally as well. Second, even if an enemy does get that close, normally you can just shift out of range. So TW is only really going to be useful in a very small number of situations. Meanwhile, SB lets you hammer several enemies from a good distance away, and Illusory Ambush gives you the flexibility of dealing with foes who have been surrounded by the rest of your party.


Also, as soon as you start getting zone powers (such as, oh, at level one) pushing enemies into there is a useful strategy. TW is one of the best at-wills in the game for a reason.

Again, not really. Yes, Zones are great, but the only thing you can do at 1st level with TW is push them. It would be a lot more useful if you could slide them, the way a Druid can with Chill Wind, for example. Now if you really think it's beneficial to move the enemy around, Phantom Bolt is superior to TW because it works at a longer range (safer for you), targets Will (more likely to hit than TW) and it produces a slide effect rather than the simple push of TW. One possible downside is that it only affects one target, but if you're using it to slide a foe into being flanked, that's actually a plus.

[Guinea Anubis]

Thanks for the help guys! The DM said he wants to take us from level 1 to level 30. I will sit down with my friend and work out how we will level his wizard from 1 to 30 later this week.

I am just remaking my Dragonborn Paladin of Tiamat but with a diffrent god. He may not be the best layed out Paladin but he is a lot of fun to play. If he dies he dies and I will just make a cheeser guy.

Here is my powers picks by level for the Paladin, Yes he is starting with 18 Cha 20 after race mobs.

1 Ardent Vow (DP)
1 Enfeebling Strike (phb)
1 Bolstering Strike (phb)
1 Valorous Smite (dp)
1 On Pain of Death (phb)
2 Bless Weapon (dp)
3 Invigorating Smite
5 sign of vulnerability (phb)
6 Wrath of the Gods (phb)
7 Blade of Light (DP)
9 Shackles of Justice (dp)
10 Font of Healing (dp)
13 Compel Obedience (dp)
15 Flames of Devotion (dp)
16 Death Ward (phb)
17 Reassuring Strike (dp)
19 Righteous Resolve (phb)
22 Return to the living (dp)
23 Resurgent Wrath (dp)
25 Discipline the Unruly (dp)
27 Astral Thunder Bolt (dp)
29 Even Hand of Justice (phb)

The PP is Scion of Arkhosia
Epic is Demigod

[Kurald Galain]

First, most of the time the enemies would have had to get through your allies to get to you.
Unless you're surrounded, or surprised or the enemies teleport, or some of your allies are temporarily disabled, or the monster has threatening reach. Don't tell me enemies are never able to close with a caster.


So your close attack is more than likely going to affect an ally as well.
That in no way follows from your previous statement.


Second, even if an enemy does get that close, normally you can just shift out of range.
Unless there's a wall there, or another enemy, or difficult terrain, or you're immobilized or dazed. Gee, I'm sure none of that ever happens.



Again, not really. Yes, Zones are great, but the only thing you can do at 1st level with TW is push them.
It's very easy: (1) Place zone over enemies. (2) Enemies move out of zone towards you. (3) Next turn, you can push them back. Remember that you are the one placing the zone where you want it.

At level one, you can easily thunderwave two enemies into a Grasping Shadows, sometimes three if you use Enlarge Spell. The odds of hitting at least one enemy with that are much better than the odds of hitting with a single-target spell against the marginally-lower will defense (come on, the difference between fort and will is less than 10% on average). Also, you omitted an important distinction: phantom bolt slides one square; thunderwave easily does 3 squares at level one. PB only works if the enemy happens to be next to the zone; TW throws them all the way across the room.

Frankly your arguments sound nice in theory but not in actual gameplay. In theory people mention that will is oh so much better to hit than fort, but in practice it's much more important how large an area you can hit, and what the rider effects are. Do the math: +10% to hit is much less useful than moving 2 or 3 times as many enemies a distance 3 or 4 times greater

[greenknight]

Don't tell me enemies are never able to close with a caster.

Of course they can. Don't tell me that it happens all that often though - unless the encounter has gone so badly it's already a defeat for the party.



That in no way follows from your previous statement.

Sure it does. Allies close by, allies get hit by large blast attack.


Unless there's a wall there, or another enemy, or difficult terrain, or you're immobilized or dazed. Gee, I'm sure none of that ever happens.

None of that ever happens frequently to a Wizard, unless things are really going badly for you. Or unless you've been silly enough to think you can stay in melee range against powerful foes.


It's very easy: (1) Place zone over enemies. (2) Enemies move out of zone towards you. (3) Next turn, you can push them back. Remember that you are the one placing the zone where you want it.

Provided you have a good Zone to push them into. Which brings us to....


At level one, you can easily thunderwave two enemies into a Grasping Shadows, sometimes three if you use Enlarge Spell. The odds of hitting at least one enemy with that are much better than the odds of hitting with a single-target spell against the marginally-lower will defense (come on, the difference between fort and will is less than 10% on average).

Yes, you might be able to Thunderwave multiple foes into Grasping Shadows. But that only lasts until the end of your next turn, so if you set it up on turn one, you're only going to be able to do that once. And you've got to be able to do that in such a way that you don't also hit your allies, because even though Grasping Shadows is a great spell, it isn't one of the "enemy only" effects. And most of the time, you've already hit those targets when you threw down your Grasping Shadows, so the added effect is minimal.

That's really situational, although if there are several Wizards (or possibly other Zone creators) in the party the tactic will get a little more viable.


Also, you omitted an important distinction: phantom bolt slides one square; thunderwave easily does 3 squares at level one. PB only works if the enemy happens to be next to the zone; TW throws them all the way across the room.

Yes, but one square is often all you need - as you said, you're the one who places the Zone. I place a lot more value on a slide than a push. Yes, you might be able to push further, but until you can turn that push into a slide, it's just not that valuable.


Frankly your arguments sound nice in theory but not in actual gameplay. In theory people mention that will is oh so much better to hit than fort, but in practice it's much more important how large an area you can hit, and what the rider effects are. Do the math: +10% to hit is much less useful than moving 2 or 3 times as many enemies a distance 3 or 4 times greater

Area attacks are great - provided you aren't also hitting an ally. And having multiple targets isn't without its disadvantages when you're talking about a close attack like Thunderwave. You have to get close to your enemy, and since it's a vs Fort attack, you're likely to miss a few. At that point, you really are open to being surrounded. It's much safer for you to be able to stand back several squares and launch a ranged or area attack. Once you can Arcane Reach it, it becomes a different story entirely, especially if you can also Enlarge Spell it.

[Eorran]

As for cheese, start by asking your DM just how much damage a 20lb rock would do when falling on someone from 25'. Then take a good look at Mage Hand

I've had a player who had a custom-made spiked iron ball that weighed 20 lbs for this very purpose. Cheese, yes, but he argued his case well.

Also the same player found a way to always grant himself cover (which eventually would become superior cover) - an open-topped metal box which he placed on his Tenser's Floating Disc. Instant hovertank! You can't afford it with your starting gold, but you can get the ritual for free at 1st level.

[Asbestos]

I've had a player who had a custom-made spiked iron ball that weighed 20 lbs for this very purpose. Cheese, yes, but he argued his case well.
What was the attack roll? Int vs Ref? Damage based on the height of the creature?

[Eorran]

What was the attack roll? Int vs Ref? Damage based on the height of the creature?

I think it was Int vs AC, 1d6 damage. He missed with it almost all the time, and a hit usually only did 1 or 2 points of damage, but it gave him something to do with his minor actions.

Actually, there's a good point - controllers have more options for their minor actions than most classes, so look at powers that give you options for your minor actions.

[Guinea Anubis]

Thanks again for the help, my friend went with a Human thats a Summoning frost cheese Wizard.

[Guinea Anubis]

A random question that my friend has come up with. If you use a frost weapon as your arcane implement and use it to summon something does the damge of the summoned thing become cold damage? I want to say no, but he asked that I post on here and see what everyone else thinks.

[Kurald Galain]

A random question that my friend has come up with. If you use a frost weapon as your arcane implement and use it to summon something does the damge of the summoned thing become cold damage? I want to say no, but he asked that I post on here and see what everyone else thinks.
The most recent Dragon magazine says yes. Customer service, however, says that Dragon magazine is in error and the answer should be no. It's up to the DM to determine which of the two is considered more official.

If you want opinions of people, I would argue no on grounds that it's silly (because the summoned creature isn't wielding the dagger). However, it is clear to me that it would not be unbalanced for the summoned critter to do cold damage.

[Guinea Anubis]

This is how my mind works.

The Dragon magazine said IIRC that it changes the powers damage over to X. But with summoning powers they don't do damage, they summon something so there for they do no damage to change in to X. Since the summoned thing is what doing the damage not the power I don't see how it could do cold damage.

[tcrudisi]

This is how my mind works.

The Dragon magazine said IIRC that it changes the powers damage over to X.

Look at it this way: the summoned monster is the powers damage. After all, the power doesn't do damage otherwise. When the monster hits, that is your power doing damage.

If you are going to allow Frost daggers to change the powers over to cold then the summons should do cold damage as well.