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Mulletmanalive
2009-12-13, 09:59 PM
One thing i've been wondering about is Solo bosses. They're climactic but tend to die quickly, either through a hail of attacks or instant death effects.

Without wasting time explaining my modded system, i'm wondering if the ability to act twice a round [two initiative rolls] and having double HP is worth a +2 CR adjustment; the effect of there being two of him in the same place.

Similarly, is a third action, tripling of hp worth +3 or is it merely a +2? The lack of positioning advantage seems to lead to at least some adjustment.

I wonder mostly because the Behir seems to be one of those rare solos that actually seems to work in 4e...

Milskidasith
2009-12-13, 10:02 PM
It wouldn't be a +2 to the CR to act twice, because he'd still have the same HP total and still die to one saving throw. I'd say two actions is a +1, and three actions is a +2, though since his actions are more valuable than yours, it could be different.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-13, 10:08 PM
i did state my intention to double his hp as well, though the rest of the point still stands.

So +1 and +2 then? Or does the increased hp tip the balance?

Temotei
2009-12-14, 12:40 AM
i did state my intention to double his hp as well, though the rest of the point still stands.

So +1 and +2 then? Or does the increased hp tip the balance?

It depends on whether instant kill spells are easy to use against them, probably. Really, challenge ratings are messed up, so it's hard to say. If this is for a specific group, judge their power, general tactics, and what they're good at, then base the challenge rating on that...especially if they're an ordinary, non-optimizing group.

Golden-Esque
2009-12-14, 02:04 AM
One thing i've been wondering about is Solo bosses. They're climactic but tend to die quickly, either through a hail of attacks or instant death effects.

Without wasting time explaining my modded system, i'm wondering if the ability to act twice a round [two initiative rolls] and having double HP is worth a +2 CR adjustment; the effect of there being two of him in the same place.

Similarly, is a third action, tripling of hp worth +3 or is it merely a +2? The lack of positioning advantage seems to lead to at least some adjustment.

I wonder mostly because the Behir seems to be one of those rare solos that actually seems to work in 4e...

I usually come up with crazy mechanics in order to protect the bosses. For example:

Blackguard has a shield of living children. He gets a 20% concealment chance, and if it works, you hit and probably kill a kid.

Crime Lord has Spring Attack and fights in a dark area, so he charges the heroes, strikes them, then hides back into the shadows.

Kraken's Body is under the hero's boat. To make it surface, a sufficient number of tentacles need to die. Also, the Kraken is ripping apart the ship instead of attacking the party.

Zombie Tyrannasaurs Rex has four cultists that do nothing but heal it and debuff the party.

Yeah, the last one is a stretch as a solo encounter, but you need some fun mechanics, and not a boost to Challenge Rating, to make a good single encounter.

Fako
2009-12-14, 02:58 AM
It depends on whether instant kill spells are easy to use against them, probably. Really, challenge ratings are messed up, so it's hard to say. If this is for a specific group, judge their power, general tactics, and what they're good at, then base the challenge rating on that...especially if they're an ordinary, non-optimizing group.

Quoted for truth. The only way to judge how much of a change it will be is to take a look at your party:
If you've got a ton of ToB melees and Warmages, then adding more HP is a good idea, but won't make it last more than one or two rounds longer than it would normally. Not much of a change.
On the other hand, if you have a "normal" party that doesn't deal a sum of 100+ damage in a round, then that extra HP is going to make a very large difference, sometimes 4+ rounds, which can be incredibly lethal to the party. It would obviously warrant an adjustment then.

As for the extra turns, I would say +1 for each extra set of actions they get, since actions are a very precious commodity in the game.

And, like Temotei said, CR isn't foolproof. The best solution I've found is to take the challenge rating of the monster and modify it by up to +/- 2, depending on how difficult it was for the party to handle it.

Mulletmanalive
2009-12-14, 03:57 AM
In response to Golden-esque, I'm using a number of solo-encounters with similar things going on already and it's starting to get silly exploiting rules everywhere. Already got a woman using puppets from a pool of dark water, a guy engaging an entire battle from behind a captive you're trying to rescue, a Skaramanga style mirror sequence and a section that is basically terrain advantage from hell.

In this case, i was after brute power without the insta-kill quality of a higher level character. I was thinking basically one character of the PC's level, attacking three times a round rather than making a more traditional encounter with a whole bunch of identical hims or him and minions [the latter they will possibly have faced earlier].

Much of this is just trying to balance the videogame style group instinct of players against the danger of single opponents, who can split you up and use your numbers against you in real life, something that's really difficult to do at the gaming table.

Sydonai
2010-03-29, 06:24 PM
The Thrall of Demogorgon prestige class gets multiple actions in a round, extended reach, can use planer binding, and gets a Limited Wish each day. Sounds like boss material to me.