PDA

View Full Version : Dwarven food structure



Laharal
2009-12-13, 10:42 PM
Hey guys! I just read the part about dwarves in Races of Stone (3.5 dnd) and little is mentionned about what they eat and how they produce/gather it. The only things that are mentionned that dwarves don't have above-grounds farmland (as I thought they might have) and that some crops and livestock can be used underground.

What would these things be? Does dwarf food supply is mostly made out of fish from underground rivers? Cave mushrooms? Magic wheat that doesn't need sun? Feel free to say the ''official answer'' (specify according to which book or author) or your own opinion about it.

It may seem a trivial answer but
1) I like to understand economics and the flow of goods
2) Defending (or salvaging from) a food warehouse or production center is always a good plot hook and can have the survival or fall of a city as an effect.

Many thanks,

snoopy13a
2009-12-13, 10:53 PM
Well, it is a valid question.

How do Dwarves grow food underground, without any sunlight, in order to support their large cities?

Who knows. Most fanasty authors seem to handwave that.

One explanation is that Dwarves trade for food.

Another would be magic. Perhaps Dwarves have magical light to grow crops underground (you'd need a pretty large cavern though).

Fish underground isn't a great explanation as these fish need to eat smaller fish which need to eat plants which need sunlight. Unless the river is temporary underground, there shouldn't be too many fish.

Hurlbut
2009-12-13, 10:55 PM
The food can include what they can forage on hill/mountain sides, but that's only if they live in the hills/mountains.

oxybe
2009-12-13, 10:58 PM
if dwarf fortress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DwarfFortress)has taught me anything...

cats. dwarven civilization rises and falls based on their ability to raise cats for food, pets, pest control, currency, furniture, weapons...

mr.fizzypop
2009-12-13, 10:59 PM
I always assumed underground fungus, but that seems odd for dwarves to eat. They could always be cannibalistic like in "Cataclysm of Green".

Sir_Elderberry
2009-12-13, 11:00 PM
In real life, there are ecologies that aren't based on photosynthesis. Deep-sea geothermal vents support food webs that start with chemosynthetic bacteria feeding on what bubbles out of the vents. Take that, sprinkle in some biology-distortion (if dragons can naturally breathe acid...), and add magic if you like (thaumosynthetic life? Arcanosynthetic? I don't know the right prefix.)

AslanCross
2009-12-13, 11:04 PM
I'd think they'd eat giant mushrooms. In Forgotten Realms, there's an underground-dwelling type of cattle called rothe. I don't remember if dwarves kept rothe as livestock, but I'd think they would.

They might actually be accustomed to eating things that our stomachs couldn't handle. There must be a reason why they have that +2 to saves vs poison.

jmbrown
2009-12-13, 11:09 PM
Hydroponics. It allows one to grow plants in water using no soil and artificial sunlight. It takes up a massive amount of space and requires dedicated temperature control, but the largest hydroponics plant in the world sold 125 million pounds of tomatoes in 2005. Some people even build terrariums in their basement for food (and... other needs) which usually produce enough food to feed a single person year round.

Using hydroponics you can grow any terrestrial plants. Some are harder than others but I assume one can grow the necessary vegetables and cereal grain for the production of alcohol (which dwarves drink... a lot). If the dwarves live in marshy areas then they could farm for rice. Living in the hills probably means they eat a lot of fungus, protein rich insects (Hmmmm, roast giant beetle and tarantula a la mode), fish in underground lakes, pick wild herbs, and hunt whatever game is in the area. Everything else is probably traded.

In a nutshell

Vegetables: small and hardy vegetables that grow quickly like tomatoes and spinach. Mushrooms and other fungus found in natural caverns.

Grain: Anything they can grow in the water like rice. Legumes like soy beans and nuts are probably plentiful and easy to grow. Grains are probably brewed instead of being made into flower.

Fruit: Whatever they can find or pick in the area. Watermelon grows on vines making it easy for dwarves to pick and avocado trees are indigenous to tropical-hilly areas.

Meat: Large insects and vermin like spiders, rats, grubs, ants, and beetles (giant beetles being plentiful in fantasy mountains; I can imagine a beetle farm). Hardy domesticated hill-region animals like donkeys and sheep are probably bred and herded if the dwarves live near a grassy knoll. Wild game that live in hilly regions like birds, lizards, and wild dogs are probably hunted but in general anything that's not vermin will be rare.

rayne_dragon
2009-12-13, 11:25 PM
I seem to recall R.A. Salvator using the aforementioned mushrooms and rothe for the drow, so I imagine that the dwarves would use the same, plus have the advantage of being able to trade with surface races. The underground rivers thing works too, again especially with magic and the whole underdark, so there's obviously quite the underground ecology in the D&D universe.

I've always liked the idea that maybe dwarves eat stone, but then you'd expect them not to be able to eat human food and be even tougher than they are.

Lord of Syntax
2009-12-13, 11:31 PM
I think the spell Daylight is involved...

LibraryOgre
2009-12-13, 11:33 PM
In Dragonlance, there are some warrens in Thorbardin that have large crystals that go from the surface to the cavern, providing sunlight for crops. Probably bad geology, but there you go.

Asbestos
2009-12-13, 11:38 PM
What substrate do these ungodly amounts of mushrooms grow on? The only earthly species of underground mushroom farmers I know of uses foliage from the surface world to provide nourishment for its crops. The lack of surface farming/plentiful greenery in mountains sort of leaves us with a Catch 22. And don't suggest dwarf poo, you can't have a closed system like that (at least not for long)

jmbrown
2009-12-13, 11:45 PM
What substrate do these ungodly amounts of mushrooms grow on? The only earthly species of underground mushroom farmers I know of uses foliage from the surface world to provide nourishment for its crops. The lack of surface farming/plentiful greenery in mountains sort of leaves us with a Catch 22. And don't suggest dwarf poo, you can't have a closed system like that (at least not for long)

Apparently D&D's underground contains tons of organic, rotting matter for which fungus thrives on. There are also magical and sentient fungus plus moss that act as perfect refrigerants.

{Scrubbed}

Leewei
2009-12-13, 11:53 PM
Magic can be invoked in any hand-waving. Dwarves need not be entirely subterranean, either. They don't suffer from bright light like Drow and Orcs do, after all.

In a dwarf-only game I'm putting together, food will be a real issue. The dwarves are escaped slaves from a goblin tribe and must fend for themselves and their brothers. In the beginning, they will be limited to what they can steal from the goblins.

Asbestos
2009-12-13, 11:56 PM
Apparently D&D's underground contains tons of organic, rotting matter for which fungus thrives on. There are also magical and sentient fungus plus moss that act as perfect refrigerants.

{Scrubbed}

Steam? That's a terrible way to prepare mushrooms. Either have them grilled or sautéed in butter... alive. Also, either dwarves have no need for vitamins or D&D mushrooms are ridiculously nutritious.

Gralamin
2009-12-13, 11:59 PM
if dwarf fortress (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DwarfFortress)has taught me anything...

cats. dwarven civilization rises and falls based on their ability to raise cats for food, pets, pest control, currency, furniture, weapons...

Now surely sir, you realize what it does to a fortresses morale to slay all of those cats. No, you keep one cat, and it will track down all of those pests. All further cats are dumped into The Hole, and when we reach a critical point, we allow the water in. At all other times, The Hole must be avoided, so the feline menace doesn't bond with anyone.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 12:08 AM
Steam? That's a terrible way to prepare mushrooms. Either have them grilled or sautéed in butter... alive. Also, either dwarves have no need for vitamins or D&D mushrooms are ridiculously nutritious.

All the vitamins you need are in dwarven ale :smallcool:

RandomNPC
2009-12-14, 12:20 AM
All the vitamins you need are in dwarven ale :smallcool:

mudders milk of course. egyptians used to do it too.

Edit: I can speel good. ya know what? no edit, i'll leave 'em in there.

golentan
2009-12-14, 12:22 AM
Dwarves eat Ale, which is a natural byproduct of their digestive cycle. As dwarf beards are organs developed to convert ambient magic into nutrition, this is an open cycle allowing sustained growth.

Seriously speaking, I believe the dwarfs grow potatoes and other tubers, and harvest them from below. I don't remember where I read that, but it made a fair amount of sense to me.

Lappy9000
2009-12-14, 12:39 AM
Hydroponics. It allows one to grow plants in water using no soil and artificial sunlight. It takes up a massive amount of space and requires dedicated temperature control, but the largest hydroponics plant in the world sold 125 million pounds of tomatoes in 2005. Some people even build terrariums in their basement for food (and... other needs) which usually produce enough food to feed a single person year round.

Using hydroponics you can grow any terrestrial plants. Some are harder than others but I assume one can grow the necessary vegetables and cereal grain for the production of alcohol (which dwarves drink... a lot). If the dwarves live in marshy areas then they could farm for rice. Living in the hills probably means they eat a lot of fungus, protein rich insects (Hmmmm, roast giant beetle and tarantula a la mode), fish in underground lakes, pick wild herbs, and hunt whatever game is in the area. Everything else is probably traded.

In a nutshell

Vegetables: small and hardy vegetables that grow quickly like tomatoes and spinach. Mushrooms and other fungus found in natural caverns.

Grain: Anything they can grow in the water like rice. Legumes like soy beans and nuts are probably plentiful and easy to grow. Grains are probably brewed instead of being made into flower.

Fruit: Whatever they can find or pick in the area. Watermelon grows on vines making it easy for dwarves to pick and avocado trees are indigenous to tropical-hilly areas.

Meat: Large insects and vermin like spiders, rats, grubs, ants, and beetles (giant beetles being plentiful in fantasy mountains; I can imagine a beetle farm). Hardy domesticated hill-region animals like donkeys and sheep are probably bred and herded if the dwarves live near a grassy knoll. Wild game that live in hilly regions like birds, lizards, and wild dogs are probably hunted but in general anything that's not vermin will be rare.Your suggestions are amazingly flavorful (possibly literally), as well as very plausible. You can infer a ton about (potential) dwarven cultures from something like that.

+1 :smallcool:

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-14, 12:52 AM
Food? Thats hoity toity Elven Stuff.

We drink beer! And Cook Beer!

Laharal
2009-12-14, 01:03 AM
Thanks for all the answers:serious and less serious ones too (I need a good laughter once in a while :smallbiggrin: )

Iamyourking
2009-12-14, 01:06 AM
I would say they trade for some of it; but they raise a kind of hardy goat on the slopes of the mountains, have shafts bored through the stone for sunlight to sustain underground plants, use hydroponics, and eat various underground fungi and animals. Plus the beer is rich enough for them to live off of if necessary.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 01:26 AM
Aw man, now we need to figure out a way to grow all the hops and barley needed to make these absurd amounts of beer.

Perhaps dwarven strongholds contain massive terraced, hydroponic hops/grain farms. The bits of plant not used for beer production are used to feed the underground rothe, which provide some meat but mainly milk. This milk is churned into butter which is used used to grease a massive skillet the size of a basketball court. Local Myconids/other mobile fungi are herded into this area and sealed inside while beneath the skillet-room great forges are fired, quickly heating the skillet. This massive cooking facility doubles as a trap for would be invaders. All dung/food waste is used to feed the larva of monstrous insects which are in turn slaughtered for food and used to produce various useful (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmine) products (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shellac#History).

The massive hop-pyramids can do double duty as temples.

Edit: I think I'll try to incorporate a giant, greased death trap into the next adventure I run.

Amiel
2009-12-14, 01:41 AM
IIRC, the duergar or grey dwarves, farmed, harvested and ate bugs, specifically beetles. Not only is this food full of protein, but it's also, rumored to be, delicious and highly nutritious. Given the climatic environment of the Underdark, this would yield the best and most rewarding results, in both monetary and culinary terms.


Dwarves have beards, not only are these beards an indication of their stature and prowess in their community, but it is a boundless and free source of food. What they eat is also deposited in their beards, so that it can be saved for later and eaten at their leisure; this would account for their stature and rotundness.
This would likely mean a symbolic relationship, wherein there are creatures in their beards that grow and plant food for them in their beards in exchange for beer or food spilt, gems and other shiny things.
Indeed, many have speculated that perhaps a dwarves' beard is an extradimensional portal to a demiplane, a bag of holding if you will.

Hallavast
2009-12-14, 01:47 AM
One explanation is that Dwarves trade for food.
This is by far the most sensible so far (though Dwarven Hydroponics is certainly more entertaining). With all the gems and precious metals that they mine, it would be easy to trade them to surface races for food.



Another would be magic. Perhaps Dwarves have magical light to grow crops underground (you'd need a pretty large cavern though).


Change "magical light" to a heat source, and you might have something there. Some kind of underground mud algae that converts heat energy feeds the mushrooms that dwarves use for their Dwarf Spirits (and supernatural male enhancements...).

An alternate opinion from Artemis Fowl is that dwarves eat dirt :smallbiggrin:.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 01:51 AM
This is by far the most sensible so far (though Dwarven Hydroponics is certainly more entertaining). With all the gems and precious metals that they mine, it would be easy to trade them to surface races for food.


The problem with this is that the dwarves would be nearly completely dependent on the surface races for food and the surface races could probably figure this out. This leads to the dwarves paying highly inflated prices for food or the dwarves becoming raiders (like those orcs that live in those mountains and also don't grow their own food) which in turn causes a lot of people to move away from the dwarf mountains which causes the dwarves to collapse into some sort of hunter gatherer society or becoming nomadic raiders.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 01:54 AM
IIRC, the duergar or grey dwarves, farmed, harvested and ate bugs, specifically beetles. Not only is this food full of protein, but it's also, rumored to be, delicious and highly nutritious. Given the climatic environment of the Underdark, this would yield the best and most rewarding results, in both monetary and culinary terms.


Dwarves have beards, not only are these beards an indication of their stature and prowess in their community, but it is a boundless and free source of food. What they eat is also deposited in their beards, so that it can be saved for later and eaten at their leisure; this would account for their stature and rotundness.
This would likely mean a symbolic relationship, wherein there are creatures in their beards that grow and plant food for them in their beards in exchange for beer or food spilt, gems and other shiny things.
Indeed, many have speculated that perhaps a dwarves' beard is an extradimensional portal to a demiplane, a bag of holding if you will.

The beard thing never gets old.

And yes, protein rich insects are good. I've had my fair share (IE once or twice) of massive grubs (I'm talking palm sized), roast tarantula, grasshopper, snails, frog, snake (their venom can be used to flavor alcohol), and fruit bat. Humans can subsist comfortably on things you find in your back yard. Feeding a large group of people is difficult scavenging but dwarven clans are usually described as growing no larger than a few thousand with the average being a few hundred.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 01:56 AM
The beard thing never gets old.

And yes, protein rich insects are good. I've had my fair share (IE once or twice) of massive grubs (I'm talking palm sized), roast tarantula, grasshopper, snails, frog, snake (their venom can be used to flavor alcohol), and fruit bat. Humans can subsist comfortably on things you find in your back yard. Feeding a large group of people is difficult scavenging but dwarven clans are usually described as growing no larger than a few thousand with the average being a few hundred.

Yeah, but that's just subsisting, you're going to need a food surplus for you know... civilization.

Edit: If they weren't disallowed surface farms they'd pretty much end up with a system like the Incas had. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incan_agriculture)

Vitruviansquid
2009-12-14, 01:58 AM
The way I see it, underground cities are supported just like overground cities: trade goods and services to surrounding farmland for food, leather, lumber, and other products that can only be obtained above ground.

deuxhero
2009-12-14, 01:59 AM
Arcanum had some underground Dwarf gardens, can't recall what they had in them (don't think there was anything real).

Pretty sure Potatoes do OK in the dark though you could skip them and go straight to create food and water traps.

Oh wait! What did Dwarf Fortress do for food? Forget at the moment.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 02:06 AM
Yeah, but that's just subsisting, you're going to need a food surplus for you know... civilization.

Edit: If they weren't disallowed surface farms they'd pretty much end up with a system like the Incas had. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incan_agriculture)

Their surplus is liquid. Beer. Plenty of carbs in beer, dwarven beer is probably chunky and unfiltered so it retains the nutrients of the yeast, and dwarves don't have to deal with the nasty side effect of getting drunk.

I remember (vaguely) this one time I got so drunk that I challenged my friend to a pushup contest. Ended up beating him by doing 120 pushups in 2 minutes when I can only do maybe half that sober. Putting that into perspective I can imagine how devastating an army of boozed up dwarven warriors would be.

Ganurath
2009-12-14, 02:07 AM
Rice: Grain Staple
Fish: Meat
Goats: Milk, Cheese, More Meat
Honey: Sweetener, makes tasty beer
Phosphorent Fungus: Veggies, makes manly beer

Amiel
2009-12-14, 02:10 AM
The beard thing never gets old.

It's so awesome though :smallbiggrin:


And yes, protein rich insects are good. I've had my fair share (IE once or twice) of massive grubs (I'm talking palm sized), roast tarantula, grasshopper, snails, frog, snake (their venom can be used to flavor alcohol), and fruit bat. Humans can subsist comfortably on things you find in your back yard.

I've been meaning to try some, for scientific purposes and unbiased analysis. Never really got around to doing so for various reasons.



Feeding a large group of people is difficult scavenging but dwarven clans are usually described as growing no larger than a few thousand with the average being a few hundred.
Yeah, but that's just subsisting, you're going to need a food surplus for you know... civilization.

Edit: If they weren't disallowed surface farms they'd pretty much end up with a system like the Incas had. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incan_agriculture)

Entomophagy, or the consumption of insects, describes several advantages; first, not only are the insects a source of rich protein, but also essential vitamins, minerals, and fats; crickets are high in calcium and termites are rich in iron. Scientific opinions expands on this "One hundred grams of giant silkworm moth larvae provide 100 percent of the daily requirements for copper, zinc, iron, thiamin, and riboflavin. Grubs of the sago palm weevil (a staple in Papua New Guinea) are laden with unsaturated fat. Many insects contain abundant stores of lysine, an amino acid deficient in the diets of many people who depend heavily on grain".

Insects produce food at a much higher quantity to energy consumption ratio. That is, it is actually vastly more efficient to raise insects than it is the traditional livestock animals (the cows, lambs, pigs). Insects also produce at a considerably faster rate than animals, so much so that a female cricket, a source of food that is extremely beneficial to any sapient, can produce as many as 1,200 to 1,500 eggs in three to four weeks.

Insects also do not require much water; what is essentially a precious commodity in the Underdark. Win-win-win for dwarves if they eat or start eating insects and/or arachnids.

Thajocoth
2009-12-14, 02:14 AM
The answer is the same as it is for "How did the monster survive with no trespassers locked in a room for 1000 years?" or "Why do the bad guys always have such perfect timing to run into us while we're traveling?"

A DM did it.

SparkMandriller
2009-12-14, 02:15 AM
Oh wait! What did Dwarf Fortress do for food? Forget at the moment.

Minced beer, I think.

Amiel
2009-12-14, 02:20 AM
The answer is the same as it is for "How did the monster survive with no trespassers locked in a room for 1000 years?" or "Why do the bad guys always have such perfect timing to run into us while we're traveling?"

Magic did it.

Fixed it for you

hamishspence
2009-12-14, 06:14 AM
4E dropped the "no overground farms" and suggested that dwarven mountain homes have at least some things on the surface- farmland, maybe herds.

Shademan
2009-12-14, 06:25 AM
I always imagined that dwarves would have some large goatherds up in them those mountains.

that also gives the chance of loner dwarf goatherd rangers with a goat as animal companion.
or...y'know a herding dog or whatever

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-14, 08:03 AM
Just got for the Discwold sultion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfs_(Discworld))


Cuisine
Bread is also a significant part of dwarf culture throughout the Disc. Dwarf bread is like hardtack, only more so; its properties are a parody of Middle-earth cram and lembas. It will enable you to survive for days (by making you realise you are surrounded by things that look more edible) and never goes stale, possibly because it was always stale. Its primary use is as a weapon (although it is also used as a kind of currency), and it is made in many different types. These include boomerang biscuits, drop scones (a reference to real drop-scones) and close-combat crumpets. Reportedly the process of "forging" a loaf of dwarf bread includes gravel as part of the recipe, and kitty litter is apparently a preferred seasoning.

The Low King sits on an (apparently) ancient loaf of dwarf bread called the Scone of Stone (a parody of the Stone of Scone).

Besides dwarf bread, dwarfish cuisine consists largely of things found underground, such as fungi, rodents and bits of rock. Rat is a staple of the dwarf diet, provided it is completely covered in ketchup or a similar sauce to hide the taste. Ankh-Morpork's rich abundance of rats is one of its main selling points to potential dwarf immigrants. Dwarfs are also known to eat dog, but only if there is not any rat.

Eldan
2009-12-14, 08:20 AM
Since we have already heard some ecologically interesting explanations, let me give some magical ideas:


Dwarves are Thaumosynthetic:
Dwarves have a natural resistance to magic which results in a +2 bonus to all saves. What few know is that dwarves actually absorb ambient magical energy and transform it into sugar, using special cells in their skins called Thaumoplasts.
Dwarven wizards and sorcerers are exceedingly rare because, in their case, they often develop severe obesity as a side-effect of consuming their own magic subconciously, leaving them mostly powerless.
Dwarven civilisation is sustained by living in deep caves deep in the mountains, where ambient vortices leading to the inner planes, especially the plane of earth, provides magical background radiation. Some dwarven cities are built above active volcanoes or lava pockets, to further use planar connections to the planes of fire and magma.
Dwarves spending too much time in dead magic zones first get cranky, then start to whither and die inexplicably unless they consume absolutely vast amounts of normal food, which they can translate into energy only inefficiently, due to their changed digestive systems. Even then, their skin starts to slowly bleach out, the natural dark colouration of dwarves vanishing in favour of a sickly pale skin, a state which only slowly returns to normal.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-14, 08:21 AM
A few thoughts on the subject.

Mushrooms, roots and fungus farms. Look into the Magic: the Gathering expansion called Ravnica. One of the groups in it use heavy composting tactics to grow large amounts of food underground.

Rats and any animals that will survive underground. Cave lakes would make good fisheries and giant crab farms, as they can live off of the waste and edible garbage of the community (this would also keep down the otyugh (http://paizo.com/image/content/RiseOfTheRunelords/Otyugh.jpg)population). Same for a lot of shell fish. Any monsters that attack the community can be turned into a food resource in this fashion as well (after being stripped of any valuable bits).

One thing I always thought: Root Farms. Trenches dug on the surface, then covered with a wire mesh and soil. Things like beets, carrots, and potatoes are planted and picked from the underside.

Dwarf farms could be kept in secluded mountain valleys, or on the sides of steep mountains that have been cut into "steps (http://www.youtring.com/ProcessImage.aspx?Filepath=Images/Photos/Step-Farming-in1406.jpg&Size=18)"

Lots of dwarven druids exist, but they don't go adventuring, just overseeing vast underground orchards and fields.

Luminous plants, adapted over the years to give off enough light for farming.

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 08:35 AM
I'd think they'd eat giant mushrooms. In Forgotten Realms, there's an underground-dwelling type of cattle called rothe. I don't remember if dwarves kept rothe as livestock, but I'd think they would.

Duergar (Dark Dwarves) do IIRC. But regular (Shield) Dwarves and especially Gold Dwarves should be close enough to the surface that they can raise more traditional forms of livestock.

There's also the point that Dwarves find a lot of treasure - they can probably trade for whatever they need.

charl
2009-12-14, 09:24 AM
Dwarf fortress had underground farms. Most of what is grown there, if not all of it, are implied to be different kinds of mushrooms or fungi. They even make booze out of it (though how you get a mushroom to ferment is anyone's guess). Some of them even grow large enough to be used as timber.

I don't think that is too unreasonable for a fantasy setting. There are certain types of bacteriae and archaea that "eat" only minerals (essentially they live of of stone). Why not expand this to mushrooms in a fantasy world? With those mushrooms around a whole eco-system of underground creatures could then exist, allowing for hunting in the underdark. It would be weird to have insects there though (real-life insects are very dependent on plants, and mushrooms aren't a good enough substitute), but the occasional arachnid lifeform would certainly be at home in the underdark.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 09:57 AM
I don't think that is too unreasonable for a fantasy setting. There are certain types of bacteriae and archaea that "eat" only minerals (essentially they live of of stone). Why not expand this to mushrooms in a fantasy world? With those mushrooms around a whole eco-system of underground creatures could then exist, allowing for hunting in the underdark. It would be weird to have insects there though (real-life insects are very dependent on plants, and mushrooms aren't a good enough substitute), but the occasional arachnid lifeform would certainly be at home in the underdark.
If we have mushrooms that feed on stone and are nutritious enough to be a dietary staple... I think we can allow bugs some chitinase.

charl
2009-12-14, 10:17 AM
If we have mushrooms that feed on stone and are nutritious enough to be a dietary staple... I think we can allow bugs some chitinase.

While that's a good point, I just felt like pointing out the absurdity of having insects in a purely underground environment. However, it is fantasy, so handwaving is the norm.

Cyrion
2009-12-14, 10:22 AM
Since we have already heard some ecologically interesting explanations, let me give some magical ideas:


Dwarves are Thaumosynthetic:
Dwarves have a natural resistance to magic which results in a +2 bonus to all saves. What few know is that dwarves actually absorb ambient magical energy and transform it into sugar, using special cells in their skins called Thaumoplasts.
Dwarven wizards and sorcerers are exceedingly rare because, in their case, they often develop severe obesity as a side-effect of consuming their own magic subconciously, leaving them mostly powerless.
Dwarven civilisation is sustained by living in deep caves deep in the mountains, where ambient vortices leading to the inner planes, especially the plane of earth, provides magical background radiation. Some dwarven cities are built above active volcanoes or lava pockets, to further use planar connections to the planes of fire and magma.
Dwarves spending too much time in dead magic zones first get cranky, then start to whither and die inexplicably unless they consume absolutely vast amounts of normal food, which they can translate into energy only inefficiently, due to their changed digestive systems. Even then, their skin starts to slowly bleach out, the natural dark colouration of dwarves vanishing in favour of a sickly pale skin, a state which only slowly returns to normal.

I really like this idea!

Another option- Create Food and Water. It explains why adventuring dwarf clerics are rare; they're too busy supplying the community. It also explains why dwarves are habitually so cranky...

Blackfang108
2009-12-14, 10:22 AM
The recipies of dwarf bread are a closely guarded secret, apart from the gravel.

Nanny Ogg makes Dwarf Bread after she changes the kitty litter.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 10:30 AM
While that's a good point, I just felt like pointing out the absurdity of having insects in a purely underground environment. However, it is fantasy, so handwaving is the norm.
Absurd?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_insects?wasRedirected=true

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 02:39 PM
If dragons can live off rocks, why can't fungus?


Well, it is a valid question.

How do Dwarves grow food underground, without any sunlight, in order to support their large cities?

Who knows. Most fanasty authors seem to handwave that.

One explanation is that Dwarves trade for food.

Another would be magic. Perhaps Dwarves have magical light to grow crops underground (you'd need a pretty large cavern though).

Fish underground isn't a great explanation as these fish need to eat smaller fish which need to eat plants which need sunlight. Unless the river is temporary underground, there shouldn't be too many fish.

Most cave ecosystems rely on stuff washing into it from outside.


The problem with this is that the dwarves would be nearly completely dependent on the surface races for food and the surface races could probably figure this out. This leads to the dwarves paying highly inflated prices for food or the dwarves becoming raiders (like those orcs that live in those mountains and also don't grow their own food) which in turn causes a lot of people to move away from the dwarf mountains which causes the dwarves to collapse into some sort of hunter gatherer society or becoming nomadic raiders.

Food is extremely cheap to produce, and dwarven steel is in demand. It would behoove anybody who wanted to get dwarven made items to not try and rip the dwarves off. Anyone who wanted to purchase dwarven weapons would likely have enemies somewhere, so it would be in the purchasers best interest to offer the dwarves a very good deal if they wanted access to the weapons.

tl;dr
Trade doesn't work that way.

Eldan
2009-12-14, 02:53 PM
It would also mean, however, that dwarves are really easy to siege: you can siege an entire kingdom because they can't produce any food.

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 02:59 PM
If dragons can live off rocks, why can't fungus?



Most cave ecosystems rely on stuff washing into it from outside.



Food is extremely cheap to produce, and dwarven steel is in demand. It would behoove anybody who wanted to get dwarven made items to not try and rip the dwarves off. Anyone who wanted to purchase dwarven weapons would likely have enemies somewhere, so it would be in the purchasers best interest to offer the dwarves a very good deal if they wanted access to the weapons.

tl;dr
Trade doesn't work that way.
How many kingdoms does the dwarf mountain border? The fewer, the more exploitable the dwarves are. Besides dwarves produce more than weapons.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 03:01 PM
How many kingdoms does the dwarf mountain border? The fewer, the more exploitable the dwarves are.

All of them.


Besides dwarves produce more than weapons.

In which case they are even less exploitable.


It would also mean, however, that dwarves are really easy to siege: you can siege an entire kingdom because they can't produce any food.

Yeah. The dwarves would have to stockpile a lot of food, though I can see the dwarves being obsessive about having vast, undergound storehouses of food that will last generations.

nightwyrm
2009-12-14, 03:02 PM
If you're thinking about making up an ecology, the first thing you think about is where new energy is coming from. On Earth, most of our energy comes from the sun, even most underground ecological systems have their sources of energy coming from things that got dropped in from aboveground and thus ultimately also from the sun. There are a number of deep ocean systems that has their energy coming from volcanic heat vents and that's probably the only exception to our biosphere's reliance on solar energy.

Now, if you add magic to the mix, you can have more leeway. You can have primary producers that feed on a constant and replenishing source of magic energy. Localized systems may be sustained on planar breaches that bleeds energy from another plane or the astral sea.

Another thing, food is cheap and easy to produce in our modern society. Ancient cities and civilizations have been known to be wiped out by something as simple as several consecutive years of bad harvest.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 03:05 PM
If you're thinking about making up an ecology, the first thing you think about is where new energy is coming from. On Earth, most of our energy comes from the sun, even most underground ecological systems have their sources of energy coming from things that got dropped in from aboveground and thus ultimately also from the sun. There are a number of deep ocean systems that has their energy coming from volcanic heat vents and that's probably the only exception to our biosphere's reliance on solar energy.

Now, if you add magic to the mix, you can have more leeway. You can have primary producers that feed on a constant and replenishing source of magic energy. Localized systems may be sustained on planar breaches that bleeds energy from another plane or the astral sea.

Another thing, food is cheap and easy to produce in our modern society. Ancient cities and civilizations have been known to be wiped out by something as simple as several consecutive years of bad harvest.

Dragons can live off of eating rocks, gems, and minerals.
Why can't you have a cow that does that, or a fungus?

nightwyrm
2009-12-14, 03:06 PM
Dragons can live off of eating rocks, gems, and minerals.
Why can't you have a cow that does that, or a fungus?

Because then it wouldn't be a cow. It'd be a magic cow. Why can't PCs live off rocks and gems?

Eldan
2009-12-14, 03:07 PM
All of them.



In which case they are even less exploitable.



Yeah. The dwarves would have to stockpile a lot of food, though I can see the dwarves being obsessive about having vast, undergound storehouses of food that will last generations.

That's probably how Pratchett's Dwarven Bread comes into play: it lasts generations, because no one wants to eat it.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 03:07 PM
It also depends on the magic level of any given society. With create food & water traps, teleportation magic, and planar gates, your physical location is much less important.


Because then it wouldn't be a cow. It'd be a magic cow.

It'd still work in an AMF, so technically it's not a magic cow.


Why can't PCs live off rocks and gems?

They can't?

nightwyrm
2009-12-14, 03:08 PM
It'd still work in an AMF, so technically it's not a magic cow.



You're assuming Eat Rocks is a EX and not a SU ability. :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 03:10 PM
You're assuming Eat Rocks is a EX and not a SU ability. :smallbiggrin:

True. I figured since dragon flight is Ex and not Su, then so is their metabolism, though their rock eating is related to their fire breathing, which is Su.

nightwyrm
2009-12-14, 03:13 PM
I think the basic idea is that the higher the level of magic you're accepting for your dwarven society, the less difficult it is to come up with explanations for how they get their food.

Subotei
2009-12-14, 03:22 PM
I favour crops grown in an underground cavern lit by magic, heated by geothermal energy, growing on composted orcs. Makes use of Dwarven engineering skills and extreme dislike of orcs...

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 03:31 PM
It also depends on the magic level of any given society. With create food & water traps, teleportation magic, and planar gates, your physical location is much less important.


Yes, but assuming we're dealing with a default pseudo-medieval setting and not the Tippyverse then things like location and local economy come into play. If the dwarves have create food and water traps or planar gates readily available then either the dwarves rule the world or everyone has reached this magical level and adventuring is pointless.

Hurlbut
2009-12-14, 03:39 PM
It would also mean, however, that dwarves are really easy to siege: you can siege an entire kingdom because they can't produce any food.Except that you're thinking in 2D. The dwarves have access to surface AND underground. So you need a relatively massive blockading force both on surface and underground. Of course that's only for the dwarven kingdoms near the surface, such as mountain and hill strongholds. Deeper it's a different story and a different source of food in the "Underdark".

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 03:41 PM
Dude...
Dwarves eat 'shrooms?
Woah...

Grumman
2009-12-14, 04:45 PM
Why can't PCs live off rocks and gems?
Ashley can eventually.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-14, 09:24 PM
This is an interesting problem.

Part of the basic issue, I'd guess, stems from the fact that fantasy writers who originally came up with dwarves that dwell deep in mountains, didn't necessarily consider this kind of concern. Oh the things we take for granted.

Furthermore, I'm not aware of any real life mountain dwelling humans from any point in history.

Let's try to work it out though. Bats come to mind. They can eat things like insects. Both of these creatures are good for protein, and fat (though in small amounts). We're obviously talking about a fantasy world... so, maybe there are goblins, or ogres... those would be fairly nutritious... Maybe eating orcs is a dark dwarf secret that they don't allow outsiders to know about.

I'm pretty sure there are fungi that can grow out of detritus (i.e. dead matter).

It's also not unheard of to have underground waterways. How do you think stalagmites and stalactites form? The inside of mountains aren't perpetually dry.

Other than that, I imagine they'd need contact with the outside world.

Dandelions
2009-12-14, 09:57 PM
My guess is that dwarves just don't dig anywhere, their Clans are probably situated around underground sources for water and thermal energy (which aren't all that uncommon).

I would guess the dwarves feed off of a mixture of above ground supplements supporting a main diet of plants that grow around thermal energy sources like some deep sea creatures. This could even have something to do with dwarves' natural poison resistance, as dwarves could be naturally adapted to eat things high in heavy metals and minerals.

The rarity of these plants wouldn't be an issue, because the dwarves would likely have domesticated them. It is not unlikely that dwarves would also have domesticated the animals that feed on these geo-thermal plants, or adapted other animals to the same purpose.