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View Full Version : [v3.5] Does an invisible hydra wagon conceal party members?



Ravingdork
2009-12-14, 12:09 AM
I recently acquired a 7-headed hydra zombie. I took my enclosed wagon that I've had since level 1, took the wheels off of it, and used a lot of rope to latch it onto the hyra's back.

If the party is inside the wagon, and it is completely enclosed (old west style), and I cast invisibility on the hydra, do we have a mobile invisible tower in which we cannot be seen?

I think it would actually work, as the wagon is clearly an attented object (such as a vest or backpack) and we are tucked away inside--no different from wizard tucking a tiny creature into his pocket or backpack before turning invisible (which works according to the books and Rules of the Game articles).

AslanCross
2009-12-14, 01:15 AM
Seems like it would work. Keep in mind, though, that you should have an extremely limited LOS while inside the wagon. If you can't see out of it, how do you STEER? Your mount, being a zombie, needs a lot of instruction.

I also think that even if you keep shooting, enemies should catch on eventually. It's very easy for some monsters (say, dragons) to make the DC 20 Spot check to determine the rough location of an invisible creature. (Though they have blindsense, anyway.)

Lunawarrior0
2009-12-14, 01:23 AM
Why do the enemies only have to make a DC 20 spot check to notice the invisible creature? Where does it say this?

Lysander
2009-12-14, 01:30 AM
Why do the enemies only have to make a DC 20 spot check to notice the invisible creature? Where does it say this?

Under the description for spot. However that's just to notice a weird distortion in the air. A giant creature like a hydra might leave visible footprints, brush bushes on the side of the road, etc. which would allow for more spot checks.

There's one problem with an invisible hydra wagon though:


Invisibility
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2, Trickery 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: You or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lb./level
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless) or Will negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless) or Yes (harmless, object)

How heavy is the hydra? How heavy is the wagon? How heavy are the passengers? I think the 100lb limit would have to apply to the combined weight of everything you're making invisible. It might not be possible to even hide the hydra at low levels, much less everything else.

Frog Dragon
2009-12-14, 01:48 AM
Even if zombifying reduces it's weight, A base hydra weighs 4000 pounds. that's cl 40 to invisible it. Even if it only weighs half that, counting the wagon and party, you still couldn't probably do it.

Ryuuk
2009-12-14, 02:13 AM
Hmm, would a zombie hydra count as a creature or as an object? If it's a creature, then the weight shouldn't be a problem, if its considered part of the wagon at this point though, then you run into complications.

Just let me get this straight, the idea is to have the wagon inside a hydra zombie and to then cast invisibility on the zombie, correct? Since the invisibility spell doesn't leave anything the target eats visible, the spell should also make the wagon and its passengers invisible?

Ravingdork
2009-12-14, 02:36 AM
Hmm, would a zombie hydra count as a creature or as an object? If it's a creature, then the weight shouldn't be a problem, if its considered part of the wagon at this point though, then you run into complications.

Just let me get this straight, the idea is to have the wagon inside a hydra zombie and to then cast invisibility on the zombie, correct? Since the invisibility spell doesn't leave anything the target eats visible, the spell should also make the wagon and its passengers invisible?

There is no question that the zombie is a creature.

The wagon is strapped to the hydra's back like it was some kind of PC-carrying backpack.

A wizard, his backpack, and all his backpack's contents would turn invisible once the spell was cast on himself. That is irrefutably spelled out in the rules (since his backpack and everything therein is considered attended).

Rules of the Game articles on the WotC website clarify that held creatures are not effected (as they count as a separate target altogether), however creatures small enough to put into a pocket, a backpack, or something disappear as well.

I'm arguing that this is simply that concept on a bigger scale. Substitue wizard with hydra, backpack with wagon, and small creatures with adventurers.

I am asking if, in your opinions, it would be allowable by the rules--or if there was something in my logic that I had overlooked.

arguskos
2009-12-14, 02:42 AM
I would say yes, this IS legal, but the weight limits on the Invisibility spell might be cause for concern. :smallwink:

Ravingdork
2009-12-14, 02:48 AM
I would say yes, this IS legal, but the weight limits on the Invisibility spell might be cause for concern. :smallwink:

Why would they? The weight limits are only there for when you cast the spell on an object--such as when I make a large closed door invisible in hopes of having pursuing enemies run into it.

arguskos
2009-12-14, 02:49 AM
Why would they? The weight limits are only there for when you cast the spell on an object--such as when I make a large closed door invisible in hopes of having pursuing enemies run into it.
It says "creature or object", meaning you can't turn the Tarrasque invisible, since it weighs like 10 tons or something crazy.

Ravingdork
2009-12-14, 03:03 AM
It says "creature or object", meaning you can't turn the Tarrasque invisible, since it weighs like 10 tons or something crazy.

I don't believe that to be the case. I'll double check my rules sources to be sure though.

arguskos
2009-12-14, 03:05 AM
Look for yourself, at the Target line. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/invisibility.htm)

It's pretty clear about "creature or object".

DragoonWraith
2009-12-14, 03:07 AM
It is utterly unclear if the the "up to 100 lb/level" clause refers only to "object" or to "creature or object" - there are some technical rules for this in legalese, but I highly doubt the WotC designers know them or would much care anyway. But since it almost certainly doesn't apply to "You", I doubt it applies to "creature", either, since the list is "you or creature or object" and applying it to the last two but not the first makes little sense. It either applies to all of them or the last, and it seems to me likely that the last is what was intended. And since attended objects are considered a part of the creature and not separate objects, the weight limit shouldn't apply.

arguskos
2009-12-14, 03:09 AM
It is utterly unclear if the the "up to 100 lb/level" clause refers only to "object" or to "creature or object" - there are some technical rules for this in legalese, but I highly doubt the WotC designers know them or would much care anyway. But since it almost certainly doesn't apply to "You", I doubt it applies to "creature", either, since the list is "you or creature or object" and applying it to the last two but not the first makes little sense. It either applies to all of them or the last, and it seems to me likely that the last is what was intended. And since attended objects are considered a part of the creature and not separate objects, the weight limit shouldn't apply.
Eh, I think it was designed to always affect the caster, but have limits on affecting other things. The reading is, admittedly, not set in stone. Still, the point stands that his DM may well read it as "hydras weigh too much". It's a worthy warning, is all.

It's not like there aren't ways to find invisible critters anyhow. :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2009-12-14, 07:57 AM
Why do the enemies only have to make a DC 20 spot check to notice the invisible creature? Where does it say this?

Sorry, it says higher than 20, apparently.


A Spot check result higher than 20 generally lets you become aware of an invisible creature near you, though you can’t actually see it.

Cyrion
2009-12-14, 10:42 AM
It is utterly unclear if the the "up to 100 lb/level" clause refers only to "object" or to "creature or object" - there are some technical rules for this in legalese, but I highly doubt the WotC designers know them or would much care anyway. But since it almost certainly doesn't apply to "You", I doubt it applies to "creature", either, since the list is "you or creature or object" and applying it to the last two but not the first makes little sense. It either applies to all of them or the last, and it seems to me likely that the last is what was intended. And since attended objects are considered a part of the creature and not separate objects, the weight limit shouldn't apply.

If they wanted it to be clear that the weight limit only applied to objects, then they would have used commas: You, a creature, or an object weighing 100 lbs or less.

Without the commas, semantically all three are limited to 100 lbs per level, thoug that gives rise to other problems such as whether the dragon can use its invisibility spell to affect itself.

Worira
2009-12-14, 10:54 AM
Except that "You weighing 100 lbs/level or less" isn't how a weight limit on the caster would be worded. It seems pretty clear to me that the intent is for valid targets to be the caster, regardless of weight, or a creature or object of 100 lbs/level or less.