About Girard's Gate! [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Shhalahr Windrider

2009-12-14, 11:54 AM

There's no reason at all to think that. All we know is that of the two gates, Girard's gate and Kraggor's gate, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate first.
Additionally, Xykon was never on the Western Continent. Soon might not know maps, but he’s not so stupid to fall for a lie placing a gate he helped discover on the wrong continent.

Does this mean that if the gate is in fact elsewherem that Xykon has the real coordinates?
No way to tell.

Girard may have trusted Serini with the proper coordinates. However, if he thought that Soon would try to get to him through Serini, he would have given her false coordinates as well. Of course, Soon would only have to go through Serini after discovering (or maybe deducing) that his coordinates were false, so Serini’s coordinates probably don’t match Soon’s.

In regards to the original post, I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of a double bluff. But at this point we need a bit more corroborating evidence.

factotum

2009-12-14, 11:57 AM

There's no reason at all to think that. All we know is that of the two gates, Girard's gate and Kraggor's gate, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate first.

And in fact, if he HAD passed it on the way to Azure City, then the answer to Roy's question if he'd asked about all the gates would still have been "Girard's Gate"--there wouldn't have been the same impulse for the Oracle to question Roy's methods.

olthar

2009-12-14, 12:19 PM

And in fact, if he HAD passed it on the way to Azure City, then the answer to Roy's question if he'd asked about all the gates would still have been "Girard's Gate"--there wouldn't have been the same impulse for the Oracle to question Roy's methods.

Which we know is not possible because 300 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html)

Larkspur

2009-12-14, 12:30 PM

Girard may have trusted Serini with the proper coordinates. However, if he thought that Soon would try to get to him through Serini, he would have given her false coordinates as well. Of course, Soon would only have to go through Serini after discovering (or maybe deducing) that his coordinates were false, so Serini’s coordinates probably don’t match Soon’s.

Wasn't Serini sweet on him? Girard may have been closer to her than to other members of the party.

Morquard

2009-12-14, 12:33 PM

I've thought about that too.

But the comparision with haley's explanation of con men doesn't work that well here. In the example, there are 3 nutshells, none of which is the real one. There were 3 Xykons none of which were the real one.

Here we don't have just 3 possible locations and the gate is at none. We have literally an infinite amount of possible locations.

"But if they think its not here, they'll exclude this area from their search and look in the really wrong places" ...
well... IF his intention is really to keep Soon away, no matter what, then why give him coordinates that are real? A lucky True Sight or whatever and the bluff is blown. Soon was Epic, so Girard would probably assume that whoever he sent is epic too or close enough and might have a way to pierce his illusions, or at least discover them.
Also the desert is so freaking big, that getting them to exclude a piece from their search simply doesn't make a difference.

There is however the possibility that the gate is here:
Girard plays the "Paladins go away" message, guessing most of them will fall for it and really go. Check the strip where the two Paladins check out Lirians gate and fail to notice any clues at all.
All the while he monitors them, maybe to try and find out why they're really here. If he figures its not a "Oh they just want to take over" reason he'll reveal himself. If not, he'll let them move on.

From a story-logic point of view, it has to be here, or there needs to be a clue to where it really is, otherwise they're back to square one, with no idea where to look now.

SPoD

2009-12-14, 12:48 PM

Also the desert is so freaking big, that getting them to exclude a piece from their search simply doesn't make a difference.

This is a really, REALLY good point. It pretty much shoots the "Gate is actually there" theory in the face and leaves it for dead, in my opinion.

The desert is so big and so featureless that it's impossible to search it all. So no one is going to hear this message and go, "Wow, I've safely eliminated THIS square mile due to this message, I better start searching the other 23,568 square miles!" No, they say, "Well, we can't search the whole desert. Maybe it's a trick. Let's keep searching here, just in case." So if this is a trick, Girard has likely INCREASED the chance of them finding the gate in the end! And he seems too smart for that.

From a story-logic point of view, it has to be here, or there needs to be a clue to where it really is, otherwise they're back to square one, with no idea where to look now.

I'm betting on a clue. That would keep this bit from being entirely pointless and give the OOTS something to go on.

WoodStock_PV

2009-12-14, 12:55 PM

Well if Girard does not give them any clue they'll still know where to find the gate, "just" follow Xykon (yeah.. not an easy or good choice), they know he is going there AND they know he'll surely be within 1000 feet from it at some time.. a bad plan.. but a reliable one..

Alexandurs

2009-12-14, 01:29 PM

Like i said in the main thread, i bet he's telling the truth and he wants you to think he's lying, now that would be awesome.

Teddy

2009-12-14, 01:34 PM

treyh37

2009-12-14, 01:41 PM

Additionally, Xykon was never on the Western Continent. Soon might not know maps, but he’s not so stupid to fall for a lie placing a gate he helped discover on the wrong continent.

small point here but Xykon and redcloak have been on the western continent, its just been about 28 years ago, when they attacked lirian's gate up on the north side of the western continent in elf lands, which is still a long way from girards gate...

Asta Kask

2009-12-14, 01:48 PM

No, they say, "Well, we can't search the whole desert. Maybe it's a trick. Let's keep searching here, just in case." So if this is a trick, Girard has likely INCREASED the chance of them finding the gate in the end! And he seems too smart for that.

But he knows that a paladin would search the other parts of the desert. So if someone stays and searches there, they can't be paladins. It's only Soon (and presumably people like Xykon) that he wants to exclude.

Joerg

2009-12-14, 02:00 PM

This is a really, REALLY good point. It pretty much shoots the "Gate is actually there" theory in the face and leaves it for dead, in my opinion.

The desert is so big and so featureless that it's impossible to search it all. So no one is going to hear this message and go, "Wow, I've safely eliminated THIS square mile due to this message, I better start searching the other 23,568 square miles!" No, they say, "Well, we can't search the whole desert. Maybe it's a trick. Let's keep searching here, just in case." So if this is a trick, Girard has likely INCREASED the chance of them finding the gate in the end! And he seems too smart for that.

Not quite. It could still be that Girard is so arrogant that he assumes the paladins won't think so far and believe the lie, and that he got an extra kick out of thinking "I'll fool them twice, hiding the gate at the real coordinates and telling them the coordinates are wrong."

Still, I'm hoping he's not that stupid. Though why you think that he seems smart is beyond me. The assumptions he made in that message are all wrong, and in the current situation, either the lie or the wrong coordinates just give Xykon an advantage.

I'm betting on a clue. That would keep this bit from being entirely pointless and give the OOTS something to go on.

That's my hope, too. A clue or a side quest to prove their good intentions.

Asta Kask

2009-12-14, 02:10 PM

Still, I'm hoping he's not that stupid. Though why you think that he seems smart is beyond me. The assumptions he made in that message are all wrong, and in the current situation, either the lie or the wrong coordinates just give Xykon an advantage.

Exactly. His assumptions is based on what he believes about paladins, not on intelligence. Of course, arrogant wizards and sorcerers are a thematic element of the campaign world...

Thursday

2009-12-14, 02:14 PM

If the gate is actually right there, then sticking up a bluff, "naah, its not really here" as a first line of defence doesn't really hurt.

This one is targeted specifically at Soon, however, or supposed to be.. and if Girard really feels that way about him and his lackeys, and did give him the co-ordinates (I can't remember off the bat how much we know about that) then why would he give him the right co-ordinates, just to pull a bluff? its still safer to put it somewhere else, just in case he does see through it and check anyway.

There could be other its not here maeesgers targeted at other people/random strangers.. if there were, the gate is more likely to be right there, if its only a message for soon, then it very probably isn't, because Girard gave him those co-ordinates.

Or something, I'm confusing myself.. we don't know yet, do we?

Qubanz

2009-12-14, 02:14 PM

Remember the lesson Haley gave us at the battle of Azure City about con men (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)?

10 gold the Gate IS there. :smallbiggrin:

He's just lying. And we all know the best lies are the the totally plausible ones.

I agree, Girard's gate is there, this is just the first trick.

I also see the familiar is getting on V's case. (Although to be honest V might have treated various people poorly, but I don't think that thing with the black dragons was THAT big an issue. The species had it coming. (I mean dragons... they claim to be all superior, in spite of being unable to build or create things. But their big and strong so they just steal from species who CAN build and create things, then hoard it, whilst mocking them. Seriously, screw dragons and their misplaced sense of superiority. Maybe if they didn't eat, kill and plunder from other species, other species wouldn't invade their lairs and kill them.) And trying to kill Xykon actually turned out pretty good, even if V didn't manage to do it due to underestimating him. (And as hilarious as I find Xykon, plot-wise it also isn't a bad thing for V to attempt to kill him.)

Teddy

2009-12-14, 02:16 PM

Exactly. His assumptions is based on what he believes about paladins, not on intelligence. Of course, arrogant wizards and sorcerers are a thematic element of the campaign world...

And the point Haley was making with the con man allegory was that the paladins are so gullible that they will accept the rules presented to them and presume that everyone else does that too. If a paladin would activate the illustion, then they would probably accept Girard's words as the truth, believe that he lied to them and go home.

Gandariel

2009-12-14, 02:29 PM

SPoD

2009-12-14, 02:30 PM

But he knows that a paladin would search the other parts of the desert.

Only if the paladin is an idiot who doesn't understand that you can't search the largest desert in the world 10 feet at a time. Girard thinks Soon is gullible, arrogant, etc., but there's no evidence that he thinks he is brain dead.

Not quite. It could still be that Girard is so arrogant that he assumes the paladins won't think so far and believe the lie, and that he got an extra kick out of thinking "I'll fool them twice, hiding the gate at the real coordinates and telling them the coordinates are wrong."

Still, I'm hoping he's not that stupid.

If you agree that doing so would be stupid, then we're pretty much in agreement. All we differ on is that I don't think Girard is that stupid, and you think he might be.

Though why you think that he seems smart is beyond me. The assumptions he made in that message are all wrong, and in the current situation, either the lie or the wrong coordinates just give Xykon an advantage.

Making wrong assumptions is not a sign of stupidity, it's a sign of inaccurate information. It has happened to Roy, V, and Redcloak at different times, and they are all smart characters. At worst, it's a sign of low Wisdom, not low Intelligence, and as an illusionist, Girard necessarily has a high Intelligence score.

I'm not saying he's a super-genius, but if he decided to hide his Gate using deception, I presume he is fairly clever at executing deceptions that actually, you know, fool people. Putting the Gate where he just said it wasn't wouldn't really fool anyone. (Case in point: half the forum thought of it within a few minutes of this strip being posted.)

Hatchet

2009-12-14, 02:30 PM

If you were in Girard's place, what would you do?

Lying about lying would be so cliché, everyone would see right through it. Leave a clue? What the hell for? That would just give your enemies a chance to find you.

The perfect secret would be something that no one knows about. Tellling Serini the real coordinates would have undermined the entire point.

Girard strikes me as a Chaotic Neutral kinda guy. If I were in Girard's place, I'd say "Have fun searching the whole continent for something hidden by the best illusionist in the world!" and be done with it.

What could the Order's next move be? I don't know. They'll think of something. We know that Xykon will eventually find the Gate, so it's not impossible. But giving them a clue? That would be like chickening out in the last minute. Well, unless it's a fake clue :smalltongue:

SPoD

2009-12-14, 02:32 PM

here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0300.html
they say "located far in the north"

while here http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html
they say "western continent"

so Xykon has the right location, and the order doesn't...

The one far to the north is Kraagor's Gate. The first location mentioned in #300 is "across the ocean." That's Girard's Gate, because the Western Continent is across the ocean from the Northern/Southern Continents.

Gandariel

2009-12-14, 02:36 PM

d'oh.
so the coordinates are the same...
ok, i agree, the gate IS there xD

SPoD

2009-12-14, 02:44 PM

Leave a clue? What the hell for? That would just give your enemies a chance to find you.

I didn't mean an intentional clue, I meant that something he says unintentionally gives the OOTS an idea of where to start looking. That would still be story progress.

Porthos

2009-12-14, 03:11 PM

IMO what's going to happen in the next strip is that the self-righetous prick the illusion of Girard is going to say something like this:

"On the other hand it is entierly possible that you have finally pissed off someone who is more powerful than you and you're crawling here begging for my help. Hey, maybe your own ineptitude has even caused your gate to fall and you're running here for saftey.

"Or in the extremely unlikely case that you actually finally wised up and realized that you need my help, then here are a few clues as to where you might be able to find me.[/quote]

With a few more personal insults thrown in as well. :smalltongue:

<<And maybe even a minor apology for the 10% chance that they aren't lackeys of Soon. :smallwink:>>

I guess what I am saying is that I highly doubt that Girard is done with his little speel. And I would be fairly surprised if he didn't leave at least some sort of "back door hint", just in case worst came to absolute worst.

Cause if he didn't, then he's an even more arrogant fool than Soon ever was. :smallamused:

werik

2009-12-14, 03:13 PM

I suppose if I was anyone in the Order, I would try other possible trigger words for other members of the Order of the Scribble. The current message is clearly directed at Soon, so it's possible that there are other pre-programmed messages with more helpful information. There's certainly no guarantee that it would work, but it beats the hell out of scraping around the desert blindly or trying to follow Xykon.

SaintRidley

2009-12-14, 03:15 PM

IMO what's going to happen in the next strip is that the self-righetous prick the illusion of Girard is going to say something like this:

"On the other hand it is entierly possible that you have finally pissed off someone who is more powerful than you and you're crawling here begging for my help. Hey, maybe your own ineptitude has even caused your gate to fall and your running here for saftey.

"Or in the extremely unlikely case that you actually finally wised up and realized that you need my help, then here are a few clues as to where you might be able to find me.

With a few more personal insults thrown in as well. :smalltongue:

<<And maybe even a minor apology for the 10% chance that they aren't lackey's of Soon. :smallwink:>>

I guess what I am saying is that I highly doubt that Girard is done with his little speel. And I would be fairly surprised if he didn't leave at least some sort of "back door hint", just in case worst came to absolute worst.

Cause if he didn't, then he's an even more arrogant fool than Soon ever was. :smallamused:[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but on the other hand that completely negates any protection his not-giving-the-correct-coordinates would have given from the bad guys. Who could just as easily have been the ones to find this programmed illusion and could just as easily be the ones given the golden ticket to finding Girard's gate.

Porthos

2009-12-14, 03:16 PM

Perhaps, but on the other hand that completely negates any protection his not-giving-the-correct-coordinates would have given from the bad guys.

Except that, as near as I can tell, his message had nothing to do with "the bad guys" and everything to do with extending a middle finger to Soon and Co. :smallamused:

PS: As much as I hate to bring up the Rule of Plot and Dramatic Conventions, the OotS does need some sort of clue as how to get to Girard's Gate.

Otherwise the whole plot quest comes to a screeching halt.

And who is better to give a sarcastic, back-biting clue, than someone who seems to be every bit as self-righetous and arrogant as the people he claims to disdain? :smallwink:

The Recreator

2009-12-14, 03:19 PM

Maybe we should take inventory of what we "know":

Everyone in the Order of the Scribble was there to seal each rift.
Dorukan and Lirian built the Gates themselves.
Gates can be moved with the proper application of both Arcane and Divine magic (see Start of Darkness).
Girard Draketooth relies on illusions and deception to protect his Gate.
The members of the Order of the Scribble didn't trust each other, and more specifically each other's judgment.
The Order of the Scribble gave each other a shared list of coordinates so that they could check up on each other if things went south.
Paladins have a hard time thinking outside a given scenario's established ruleset.
Girard was at that specific location in the desert at one point to prepare his message.

I imagine that there are multiple layers of deception in Girard's message - perhaps it could have activated on a different set of key words (like "Lirian" or "Serini"), or maybe there's a hidden code within the message we've seen. It could be that he knew Soon would stop his search under any condition but the most dire, and that message is a filter to prevent him from interfering without just cause. Even if Soon might forget the exact location of the rift (and the associated Gate), he wouldn't forget the specific desert he fought to protect it in so long ago.

A cryptographer will tell you that secrecy alone is never the best security measure. It stands to reason that Girard wouldn't just hide his Gate under a rock or 500 tons of sand and hope nobody tripped on it in a few millennia when Time inevitably wears away the features of the land. No, if Girard is worth his salt as an Illusionist, he'll back up the lack of information on the Gate's true location with a more-or-less complete background on the Gate's false location (or probable false locations). And assuming he'd want someone (anyone!) to be able to find the Gate in the future for whatever reason, he'll leave deeply encrypted signs and codes in his illusions that only he and his most trusted associates (most likely no one, judging from his message's attitude) could find, perhaps on the chance that he needs to leave his domain and find his way back. Maybe there's something in the message that Girard would never say, or maybe there's a "fact" in there that only a member of the original Order of the Scribble would recognize as false. Who knows? The whole thing could be a gambit to trap the forces of Evil in a perpetual search around the whole desert.

I suppose that all I'm working towards here is that we can't take anything related to Girard at face value. Maybe he doesn't even have that beard anymore.

TheSummoner

2009-12-14, 03:21 PM

He says theres a roughly 90% chance they're associated with Soon. Girard seems smart enough to prepare for the remaining 10%... Just my thoughts on it.

SaintRidley

2009-12-14, 03:24 PM

Except that, as near as I can tell, his message had nothing to do with "the bad guys" and every thing to do with extending a middle finger to Soon and Co. :smallamused:

PS: As much as I hate to bring up the Rule of Plot and Dramatic Conventions, the OotS does need some sort of clue as how to get to Girards Gate.

Otherwise the whole plot quest comes to a screeching halt.

And who is better to give a sarcastic, back-biting clue, than someone who seems to be every bit as self-righetous and arrogant as the people he claims to disdain? :smallwink:

Plot and dramatic conventions do play in your favour. I do think that Girard would, hopefully, be smart enough to know that that other 10% chance of not being Soon Kim or one of his fascist paladin lackeys does not necessitate that the people who said things like "Sapphire Guard" and "Soon" be good guys.

I would hope that Girard is smart enough to think of that 10% chance as far more dangerous than Soon Kim could ever be to the safety of his gate and leave no information, even if he were to accept that Soon might have good intentions, due to the chance the information might go to someone actively dangerous.

But yes, plot and dramatic convention do say that he is highly likely to give a clue. I just hope he doesn't for the sake of intelligence (and logic, as he points out he has in this strip).

Porthos

2009-12-14, 03:30 PM

I just hope he doesn't for the sake of intelligence (and logic, as he points out he has in this strip).

Here's the thing. Based on the extreme small sample size of Girard's commentary, (and from what we've seen from other wizards in OotS), I am prepared to think that he might think that he's powerful/smart/devious enough to beat someone even if he gave them clues.

If only so he can continously leave taunting illusions behind.

...

Because if Girard was REALLY SMART, he never would have left the "Extend a Middle Finger to Soon" Message in the first place. After all, by simply saying that the Gate isn't here, he's already given people information.

If he was really and truly intellegent he would have left absoultely nothing behind whatsoever. At best, people use an insane amount of resources and time on a futile quest, and at worst they eventually go off and recheck other sources.

But by tipping your hand, and going all "HAHA"* you have given people info that they didn't already have. Namely that Girard is actively opposed to your agenda, and thus you can use that knowledge accordingly in whatever plans you set up.

* Nelson from The Simpsons, natch. :smallwink:

SPoD

2009-12-14, 03:34 PM

Here's the thing. Based on the extreme small sample size of Girard's commentary, (and from what we've seen from other wizards in OotS), I am prepared to think that he might think that he's powerful/smart/devious enough to beat someone even if he gave them clues.

If only so he can continously leave taunting illusions behind.

...

Because if Girard was REALLY SMART, he never would have left the "Extend a Middle Finger to Soon" Message in the first place. After all, by simply saying that the Gate isn't here, he's already given people information.

If he was really and truly intellegent he would have left absoultely nothing behind.

Well, there could be a secondary purpose to the spell. Maybe it also alerts Girard when it's been triggered. That alone would make it worth the very slight risk that telling someone the Gate is not in one square mile of an enormously large geographic area would entail.

Hell, if it were me, I would have the spell segue directly into Heightened Mass Phantasmal Killer on everyone within range.

Porthos

2009-12-14, 03:39 PM

Hell, if it were me, I would have the spell segue directly into Heightened Mass Phantasmal Killer on everyone within range.

As I said previously, the spell isn't over yet. :smalltongue:

Tho the "attack everyone who triggers the spell" idea might just be a bit too much on the Evil Side of the Street for Girard. Prickishness aside (which might actually be deserved considering how little we know of the Girard/Soon relationship), we really don't have that much of an idea where Girard falls on the moral axis.

Yet. :smalltongue:

SaintRidley

2009-12-14, 03:43 PM

Phantasmal Killer might be a bit much, considering Girard probably isn't evil and wouldn't want to take a 90% chance of killing good guys (even if they are fascists).

Some Shadow Conjurations or Evocations might do enough damage to get the point across that they should GTFO, though.

Hatchet

2009-12-14, 03:45 PM

Heightened Mass Phantasmal Killer

You mean Weird (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/weird.htm)? :smallwink:

I agree though, setting the spell to double as an alarm would be a smart move.

Also, giving out false clues and sending them on a wild goose chase, only to end with another illusion saying, "Sorry, the Snarl is in another castle!" would definitely be something fitting an illusionist :smallsmile:

Shhalahr Windrider

2009-12-14, 03:47 PM

Wasn't Serini sweet on him? Girard may have been closer to her than to other members of the party.
Serini did have a crush. There’s no evidence that there was any reciprocation on Girard’s part.

Furthermore, even if they did have a close relationship, that doesn’t mean Girard cannot be objective. He can love Serini, but that doesn’t mean he has to trust her to keep secrets from former adventure-mates.

small point here but Xykon and redcloak have been on the western continent, its just been about 28 years ago, when they attacked lirian's gate up on the north side of the western continent in elf lands, which is still a long way from girards gate...
Alright. “Since the relevant prophecy was made, Xykon hasn’t been to the Western continent.”:smallyuk:

Lying about lying would be so cliché, everyone would see right through it.
I think the only people that have reliably seen through all the clichés so far are bards and Kubota.

The Recreator

2009-12-14, 03:47 PM

Hell, if it were me, I would have the spell segue directly into Heightened Mass Phantasmal Killer on everyone within range.I would use a Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) to send all the paladins back to Azure City, just for kicks. As an added bonus, it immediately puts any actual villains right in the middle of a city full of paladins. Barring another Super Bouncy Symbol of Insanity, they'd be screwed.

WoodStock_PV

2009-12-14, 04:04 PM

Well, if you know how to follow a teleporting lich, but that is of course nigh impossible.

Well.. I hope he will not be teleporting all around.. he still has a bunch of minions that has to follow him. If he does not bring his army with him he has at least Redcloak, Tsukiko and the MitD to follow him.. and it would be counterproductive to just spend all his spell slots teleporting around trying to find it.. I bet they don't know exactly where the gate is.. just a pointer, like Roy had, otherwise Redcloak wouldn't be so.. let's say.. afraid of going there with no more info than the diary has given..
As I can't think of anything better I still guess following Xykon is the best option.. not the easiest one as I already said..

EDIT: Oh, and on topic, I do think the place they're in right now may be the correct place after all..

SPoD

2009-12-14, 04:10 PM

As I said previously, the spell isn't over yet. :smalltongue:

Tho the "attack everyone who triggers the spell" idea might just be a bit too much on the Evil Side of the Street for Girard. Prickishness aside (which might actually be deserved considering how little we know of the Girard/Soon relationship), we really don't have that much of an idea where Girard falls on the moral axis.

Yet. :smalltongue:

My money is on Chaotic Neutral. He seems too dismissive of the idea of "for the greater good" to be CG. Consider that Elan, Haley, and Shojo are all CG, and none of them would sneer at the idea that sometimes, the greater good really does need to be considered.

Porthos

2009-12-14, 04:24 PM

My money is on Chaotic Neutral. He seems too dismissive of the idea of "for the greater good" to be CG. Consider that Elan, Haley, and Shojo are all CG, and none of them would sneer at the idea that sometimes, the greater good really does need to be considered.

Very possible. And even probable.

OOTH it's also possible that it's the classic CG argument against LG excesses/compromises-of-ideals. Soon (and by extension the Sapphire Guard) probably used the Greater Good argument in their dealings with the whole Gate situation, and so this is Girard shoving it back in his face.

Never mind the pogroms against the goblins, you have all of the destruction of knowledge about the Gates (paper and... otherwise :smallwink:) that we know that the SG committed. Plus the argument against Free Speech given back in the trial arc. I can see Girard railing against people who would commit atrocities in the name of the Greater Good.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just being influenced by the overuse of the word "fascist" in our current political climate (which, of course, we can't really go into discussion here :smallwink:). I guess what I am saying is that Girard reminds me of the more... committed... activists I have known in my day. :smalltongue:

Shhalahr Windrider

2009-12-14, 04:28 PM

My money is on Chaotic Neutral. He seems too dismissive of the idea of "for the greater good" to be CG.
He’s sneering at what Soon would consider to be a reasonable sacrifice for the Greater Good. I don’t think it necessarily indicates a problem with the concept itself, just the Paladin version. And I think the Law/Chaos spectrum has enough room for that without dragging Good and Evil into the equation.

valce

2009-12-14, 04:30 PM

This is a really, REALLY good point. It pretty much shoots the "Gate is actually there" theory in the face and leaves it for dead, in my opinion.

The desert is so big and so featureless that it's impossible to search it all. So no one is going to hear this message and go, "Wow, I've safely eliminated THIS square mile due to this message, I better start searching the other 23,568 square miles!" No, they say, "Well, we can't search the whole desert. Maybe it's a trick. Let's keep searching here, just in case." So if this is a trick, Girard has likely INCREASED the chance of them finding the gate in the end! And he seems too smart for that.

Even if Girard has the probabilities worked out, I'd be surprised if he didn't include a contingency for the unlikely case that somebody will legitimately need to get to the gate before An Evil Force (tm) does.

I mean, Girard did set up an illusion with verbal triggers... If he used verbal triggers to guess that the speaker is a paladin, couldn't he use further verbal triggers on the speakers' response to this message to detect whether or not the speakers actually are paladins?

Something simple like "we're not paladins" (which a non-lying paladin probably wouldn't say) would work nicely. Maybe the Gate isn't here, but the secondary trigger can give a hint, at least. Otherwise Girard would risk letting his personal vendetta destroy the Universe :P

Either that or a riddle that only a very devious non-lawful thinker or complete buffoon could resolve :P

SPoD

2009-12-14, 04:36 PM

Even if Girard has the probabilities worked out, I'd be surprised if he didn't include a contingency for the unlikely case that somebody will legitimately need to get to the gate before An Evil Force (tm) does.

Agreed. Let's just hope that contingency doesn't involve contacting his good friends Dorukan or Lirian first.

recluso

2009-12-14, 04:51 PM

Girard says "logic dictates that you're here specifically to find me or my Gate".

His further words are only about "You are here for my Gate".

Still to come, Girard talking about how to get into contact with Girard.

The safest way would be giving some orders - humiliating to paladins ofc - which would warn Girard that he is needed. I expect something requiring the Girard-seekers to state reasons, in one directional contact, before getting to see Girard.

Conuly

2009-12-14, 05:41 PM

Only if the paladin is an idiot who doesn't understand that you can't search the largest desert in the world 10 feet at a time. Girard thinks Soon is gullible, arrogant, etc., but there's no evidence that he thinks he is brain dead.

Well, one Paladin couldn't, but a large enough fighting force of paladins probably could.

Gitman00

2009-12-15, 02:17 PM

I would use a Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) to send all the paladins back to Azure City, just for kicks. As an added bonus, it immediately puts any actual villains right in the middle of a city full of paladins. Barring another Super Bouncy Symbol of Insanity, they'd be screwed.

Better yet, develop Plane Shift Circle and send them to Limbo.

Plane Shift Circle
Spellcraft DC: 90
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: 10 Minutes
Range: 0 ft
Effect: 20-ft radius circle that plane shifts those who activate it
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Seed: Transport (Teleports target(s) to a location of the caster's choosing, regardless of distance)(DC 27). Factors: Change target from personal to area (20-ft radius) (+15 DC), include interplanar travel (+4 DC), Permanent duration (x5 DC). Mitigating Factors: Increase casting time to 10 minutes (-20 DC), Burn 10,000 XP during casting (-100 DC)

You create a circle on the floor or other horizontal surface that transports any creature who stands on it to a designated spot, on any plane you choose. Once you designate the destination for the circle, you can’t change it. The spell fails if you attempt to set the circle to teleport creatures into a solid object, to a place with which you are not familiar and have no clear description.

The circle itself is subtle and nearly impossible to notice. If you intend to keep creatures from activating it accidentally, you need to mark the circle in some way.

WoodStock_PV

2009-12-16, 01:54 PM

More evidence that maybe I was right is the statement made by Girard in the new comic 695 that "Serini has the true coordinates". Now their best clue is to follow Xykon into the gate. Maybe not.. but I find this probable, nobody agrees with me?

SaintRidley

2009-12-16, 01:57 PM

FafnerMorell

2009-12-16, 02:04 PM

I still wonder if this is just a bluff/illusion - after all, it's managed to convince even the most jaded/skeptical audience (OOTS readers) that the gate isn't here. Just about anyone would give up looking here.

But what if the explosion was an illusion? (I suspect despite the mushroom cloud, only minimal damage will be incurred by any member of the party - although that's more for plot/comedy than "proof"). After all - what would the most brillant illusion be? One that could convince even an OOTS reader to give up looking? Looks like he accomplished it.

Now, it presumes that whoever came looking for the gate was familar with issues within the Order of the Scribble and not shocked about anomosity towards Soon - but that knowledge may not be an unreasonable assumption for someone trying to track down the gates.