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Melamoto
2009-12-14, 12:23 PM
I am DMing for a game with 6 players (7 with me) where I am one of the 2 people who have ever played 3.5, and one of the only 4 who have ever played a tabletop RPG. Pretty much everyone gets the hang of it, and I managed to avoid forcing optimization on them (Even when the dwarf fighter took Toughness and the Weapon Focus tree), but there is just one case. They are starting at level 5, with 6300 gp.
One of the players, a Sorcerer (One of the ones who has never played an RPG) was going through magical equipment. I had many rules out for simplicity, including maximum item costs. Now, the party had a few eccentric members, such as the Cleric who wielded a Tower Shield and Nunchaku (He thought it was cool). But the Sorcerer spent his entire budget on: A Tan Bag of Tricks. Why? "Let me get this straight: I can throw a Rhinoceros?" I first tried telling him it would be weak, but he didn't care too much; he had protective spells and a party in front of him, and his spells (Blaster type) wouldn't benefit much from items. I tried saying there were cooler things; he asked me to look for something he could get that would be cooler than summoning bears. I could find no such thing.
Most of the other players think it is just a little bit retarded, but he is remaining adamant about his choice. And he seems to know what he is doing. I am feeling very confused, and most importantly, I don't know how to handle this in game. He will be weak in a lot of respects, but for his level, the damage and power of his creatures can change battles. He will be getting new equipment soon, but will always have this dent in his pocket. How on earth am I supposed to make this work for him without killing him? And, on an unrelated question, will a party of 6 weaklings be able to survive anyway? If it helps, I'm running Red Hand of Doom.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 12:29 PM
Let him. Nothing wrong with random, cool, non optimal stuff. In a normally serious campaign, one of my characters was overjoyed to loot a decanter of endless butter(works as per water, but lightly melted butter instead).

Sometimes, creativity will allow even the wierdest item to be used in terrific ways, and sometimes it's just hilarious.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 12:40 PM
Let him. Nothing wrong with random, cool, non optimal stuff. In a normally serious campaign, one of my characters was overjoyed to loot a decanter of endless butter(works as per water, but lightly melted butter instead).
Oooooooooo...
Aaaahhhhhh...
Where can I get one of those?



Sometimes, creativity will allow even the wierdest item to be used in terrific ways, and sometimes it's just hilarious.

Villain: Yes, my plan is working perfectly...
PC: Here, have a rhinocerous to the face!!!

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-14, 01:17 PM
Let me get this straight...

A player blew his entire wealth on the singular greatest item in the game, and you have a problem with it?

::slap::

He throws Rhinos, you catch them. He's going to be more awesome than Healy Behind-Doors McNumchucker, anyways. Why?

BECAUSE YOU HAVE A BEAR-CHUCKING SORC IN YOUR GAME. How dare you complain?

Melamoto
2009-12-14, 01:28 PM
As far as the guy doing random stuff in games goes, this is pretty much par. My real problem here is wondering about whether he (Or the rest of the party - they are really unoptimized) will be able to make it through RHoD. Should I just treat them as a party of 4 for XP, or should I simply leave it as it is? Do I lighten the encounters, or simply modify them, or leave as is?

And I'm mostly fine with it anyway as long as he doesn't try flying above the enemy and abusing falling damage rules.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 01:29 PM
Villain: Yes, my plan is working perfectly...
PC: Here, have a rhinocerous to the face!!!

They may laugh, but I've solved a minimum of one crazy situation a session through creative use of donkeys(survival bag, or something close to it, MiC).

I already forsee the butter decanter being abused as per a grease spell. I've already had to specify that it doesn't deal damage. I wonder if they'll light it on fire...

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 01:30 PM
As far as the guy doing random stuff in games goes, this is pretty much par. My real problem here is wondering about whether he (Or the rest of the party - they are really unoptimized) will be able to make it through RHoD. Should I just treat them as a party of 4 for XP, or should I simply leave it as it is? Do I lighten the encounters, or simply modify them, or leave as is?

If you're worried about a lack of xp, add side quests and additional encounters.

Gorilla2038
2009-12-14, 01:32 PM
Sounds like your one of the few DM's lucky enough to be likely to have a group that Role plays more than grinds dungeons. IMO, thats a great thing.

For what to do? Well, its the same as any other group, its just that you can trust the CR calculator a lot more, and not have to reduce XP as often. 3.5 is designed for players to NOT be optimized, it runs a lot smoother on a DM and new players to the system(been there as the only guy in 8 person group who ever had played an RPG).

As for the Sorc? Hell be fine, as long as the party works together and he doesnt decide to be John Wayne.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 01:35 PM
A Tan Bag of Tricks is actually a really good item at level 5. It lets the sorcerer have the animal companion of a 7th level druid.

It was an excellent item to purchase. Getting nunchuks & a tower shield was retarded. I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with the sorcerer, but aren't worried about your useless cleric.

Zom B
2009-12-14, 01:48 PM
They may laugh, but I've solved a minimum of one crazy situation a session through creative use of donkeys(survival bag, or something close to it, MiC).

Oh, heck, my wizard uses the Mount spell like it's going out of style. A horse that obeys my every command? "Horse! Go walk down that hall so we can see if there are any traps!" "Horse! Come here, I need cover!"

I seem to remember the spell used to summon this ghostly mount but now it is an actual flesh-and-blood horse.

erikun
2009-12-14, 02:06 PM
I already forsee the butter decanter being abused as per a grease spell. I've already had to specify that it doesn't deal damage. I wonder if they'll light it on fire...
Would likely be useful against a Mind Flayer and his hungry Umber Hulk minion. Even if only for a laugh.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 02:14 PM
Illithid: Sick'em fluffy!!!
Fluffy the Umber Hulk: Nomnomnom!SLUUUURP!BUUURP!
Illithid: (facepalm) NOT THE BUTTER, YOU MORON!!!!

valadil
2009-12-14, 02:16 PM
Every other game this player plays in will be more optimized. Let him have his fun silliness while he can still enjoy it.

How effective the player is will depend on GM fiat. He's in love with the bag of tricks and so he's going to try to use it. Most of what he does with that bag will not be covered by the rules, so it's up to you to decide if his crazy ideas work or not. If the party isn't doing well, maybe the rhino should be able to break down the iron door. If they're progressing well in spite of their lack of optimization, then the rhino is too weak. It's up to you.

BRC
2009-12-14, 02:17 PM
I tried saying there were cooler things; he asked me to look for something he could get that would be cooler than summoning bears. I could find no such thing.

You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-14, 02:20 PM
You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

Those bears would be SO ANGRY.

Guinea Anubis
2009-12-14, 02:23 PM
And I'm mostly fine with it anyway as long as he doesn't try flying above the enemy and abusing falling damage rules.


thats the best part of bag of tricks.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 02:30 PM
You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.

If you feel he is going to be underpowered, let him spend spells to make the animals come out of his bag on fire. Because the only thing better than throwing a bear at your opponent, is throwing FLAMING bears at your opponent.

Powerthirst (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRuNxHqwazs&feature=PlayList&p=7B54551F46AC30B7&index=0) is cooler.

BRC
2009-12-14, 02:36 PM
Those bears would be SO ANGRY.
Angry enough for a +4 to Str and Con with a -2 to AC?

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-14, 02:39 PM
Angry enough for a +4 to Str and Con with a -2 to AC?

No. Absolutely not.

But we are lighting the bear warrior on fire ASAP.

Haven
2009-12-14, 02:41 PM
Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

erikun
2009-12-14, 02:43 PM
You could find no such thing, because such a thing dosn't exist.
Not even Decanter of Endless Water/Sand jetpacks?!

BRC
2009-12-14, 02:49 PM
No. Absolutely not.

But we are lighting the bear warrior on fire ASAP.
Yes...Very Yes.
On Fire
Evocation [Fire, Awesome]
Level: Sorc/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range:
Target: Willing Creature touched.
Duration: 1 minute/level
Saving Throw: Will Save negates (Harmless), Reflex
Spell Resistance:

The Touched creature is engulfed in a rippling aura of flames. Any natural or unarmed attacks they do deal an additional 1d6+1/level fire damage (Max +5), in addition they may make a melee touch attack to deal that much damage and has a chance to catch on fire. Any creature that attacks the subject with natural weapons or unarmed strikes or attempts to grapple the subject takes the damage as well. Any creature with ranks in the skills Hide and Move Silently cannot grapple the subject.
If any creature takes fire damage from this spell, it must make a reflex save or light on fire.
The Flames do not harm the subject or their equipment.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 02:55 PM
Every other game this player plays in will be more optimized. Let him have his fun silliness while he can still enjoy it.

How effective the player is will depend on GM fiat. He's in love with the bag of tricks and so he's going to try to use it. Most of what he does with that bag will not be covered by the rules, so it's up to you to decide if his crazy ideas work or not. If the party isn't doing well, maybe the rhino should be able to break down the iron door. If they're progressing well in spite of their lack of optimization, then the rhino is too weak. It's up to you.

Everything comes down to DM fiat, of course, though I would suggest you use the rules provided by the MM & DMG to adjudicate resolution of your example. That is, the rhino that a bag of tricks summons has a strength score, and an iron door has a listed break DC. There's no reason to be a bad DM.

Melamoto
2009-12-14, 02:56 PM
Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.

BRC
2009-12-14, 02:57 PM
I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.
He's a sorc, he's still got his spells. It's not like this is the fighter who gave up his sword or somthing.

Myrmex
2009-12-14, 02:59 PM
He can summon lions and bears. At level 5. These are monsters that are as powerful as the fighter.

Srsly, it's not an underpowered decision.

Sliver
2009-12-14, 03:01 PM
Why is it cause for alarm that a player decides to do something they think is fun instead of something that gives them the best bonus on their rolls?

Because it obviously means he is setting the foundations for his grand plan of master abuse and cheese that will break, snap and destroy the game!!

I think we had a similar thread a while ago, "my player does something sub-optimal! there must be some hidden cheese involved!"

SurlySeraph
2009-12-14, 03:09 PM
I can't seem to find it, but a while back someone homebrewed a spell that transmutes the target's ovaries or testicles into flaming bears.

You will recreate this spell. You will require the sorcerer to take it.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 03:11 PM
I'm fine with him taking it, I already said. The only thing I was worried about is that I thought he wouldn't be able to match the other PCs, or worst case, the enemies.

How, exactly, does a rhino to the face not match the other characters at level 5?

BRC
2009-12-14, 03:19 PM
I can't seem to find it, but a while back someone homebrewed a spell that transmutes the target's ovaries or testicles into flaming bears.

You will recreate this spell. You will require the sorcerer to take it.
I must now create a class based entierly on using flaming bears.

It starts out throwing flaming teddy bears at it's enemies. At the end, it summons Beartron ( A giant Bear made out of many normal sized bears), lights it on fire, and watches the world tremble.

Setra
2009-12-14, 03:19 PM
A Tan Bag of Tricks is actually a really good item at level 5. It lets the sorcerer have the animal companion of a 7th level druid.

It was an excellent item to purchase. Getting nunchuks & a tower shield was retarded. I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with the sorcerer, but aren't worried about your useless cleric.
:smallconfused:

I'm not sure why you have such a big problem with the sorcerer, but aren't worried about your useless cleric.
:smallfrown:

useless cleric.
Does not Compute!!

erikun
2009-12-14, 03:22 PM
Well, if he doesn't prepare any spells in the morning... and doesn't use his domain abilities... and doesn't use those extra skills he gets from various domains... and doesn't have any equipment...

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 03:27 PM
A tower shield is quite useful, actually.

Nunchucks, substantially less so. Is he even proficient with them?

nekomata2
2009-12-14, 03:31 PM
Oh, heck, my wizard uses the Mount spell like it's going out of style. A horse that obeys my every command? "Horse! Go walk down that hall so we can see if there are any traps!" "Horse! Come here, I need cover!"

I seem to remember the spell used to summon this ghostly mount but now it is an actual flesh-and-blood horse.

You might be thinking of Phantom Steed. (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantomSteed.htm)

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 03:35 PM
A tower shield is quite useful, actually.

Nunchucks, substantially less so. Is he even proficient with them?

Does it matter? He is, almost literally, a Wall of Heal.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 03:37 PM
I just want to put in, bears generally find it quite rude to be awoken by being set on fire.

Just saying.

Ilena
2009-12-14, 03:41 PM
And indeed you should know, being a bear yourself ;P I will try to remember that, also its up to the dm to balance encounters for the party .... if you have a party of range specs and rogues .... undead are a bad idea expecially if they dont have any B style weapons ....

Asbestos
2009-12-14, 03:41 PM
I just want to put in, bears generally find it quite rude to be awoken by being set on fire.

Just saying.

*casts On Fire*...

Kantolin
2009-12-14, 03:43 PM
I'm in the 'let him do it! Fun is important'! Camp.

If he likes the idea, however, I'd also point him to the summon monster list, so he can be summoning animals while throwing animals. Not for any real mechanical reason, it just seems to be something he'd enjoy.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 04:57 PM
*casts On Fire*...

How rude!

:smallamused:

Haven
2009-12-14, 05:24 PM
I just want to put in, bears generally find it quite rude to be awoken by being set on fire.


As opposed to most creatures, for whom waking up with fire is customary etiquette.

*fwoosh* "Good morning, your majesty!"

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 05:38 PM
If you've ever heard the one about the bear and the rabbit in the woods, you'll know just how little bears care about other creatures.

Pain~less
2009-12-14, 05:52 PM
To add something about Rhod to the discussion, i think the players should be ok based on sheer numbers (with added bears too :smallwink:). The enemies in Rhod are not terribly optimized, so i think it will play out well without too much tinkering.
Also, Flaming bears. And the fire is on fire.

DabblerWizard
2009-12-14, 09:58 PM
Your sorcerer may be new to RPGs, but it sounds as though he's finding ways to enjoy himself, which is what really matters in the end, even if he does end up being a bit sub-optimal. He may find himself sub-par in some ways, but only if he's concentrating on that sort of thing. Maybe his bag of fire-rhinos / bears will keep him sufficiently entertained.

In either case, I say just let him experience the game the way he wants to. Forcing his hand, even if you do so with good intentions, will likely just dampen his experience, because it's taking away his ability to make his own decisions.

Most players know how to ask for advice if they want it.

tyckspoon
2009-12-14, 10:03 PM
Yes...Very Yes.
On Fire
Evocation [Fire, Awesome]


"...Creatures with any levels in a class with the word "Ninja" in the name may not touch the target of On Fire. This includes touch spells, grapple attempts, natural weapons, and any other form of direct physical contact."

Daefos
2009-12-15, 08:58 AM
Bear Lore
A character knows the following information with a successful Nature check.
DC 15: OH GOD THE BEAR IS ON FIRE!
DC 20: WHY CRUEL WORLD!?
DC 25: AAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!

Melamoto
2009-12-15, 12:30 PM
As for what everybody is saying, I'll just forget specifically the sorcerer, and go and describe the party for you.

Elven Paladin - Taking lots of minor sub-optimal choices combined with Paladin.
Elven Ranger - Focused on many combat irrelevant skills. Not a bad game plan, but won't support the party as well in a fight.
Elven Rogue - Doesn't grasp much of 3.5, and keeps making mistakes
Human Cleric - Nunchaku, Tower Shield, Destruction and Healing.
Human Sorcerer - Pure blaster with a Tan Bag of tricks. Might be better if it had more than approximately one use per day.
Dwarf Fighter - Taking the whole weapon focus tree and toughness.

My main issue is, do I pull punches, and if so, do I still award them xp as if I hadn't (So they don't fall behind)?

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 12:45 PM
As for what everybody is saying, I'll just forget specifically the sorcerer, and go and describe the party for you.

Elven Paladin - Taking lots of minor sub-optimal choices combined with Paladin.
Elven Ranger - Focused on many combat irrelevant skills. Not a bad game plan, but won't support the party as well in a fight.
Elven Rogue - Doesn't grasp much of 3.5, and keeps making mistakes
Human Cleric - Nunchaku, Tower Shield, Destruction and Healing.
Human Sorcerer - Tan Bag of tricks. Might be better if it had more than approximately one use per day.
Dwarf Fighter - Taking the whole weapon focus tree and toughness.

My main issue is, do I pull punches, and if so, do I still award them xp as if I hadn't (So they don't fall behind)?

SEE??? I called it. Wall of Heal!

BRC
2009-12-15, 12:46 PM
"...Creatures with any levels in a class with the word "Ninja" in the name may not touch the target of On Fire. This includes touch spells, grapple attempts, natural weapons, and any other form of direct physical contact."
I covered that with "Any creature with ranks in Hide and Move Silently"
The idea is that you don't need to have levels in Ninja to be a Ninja.

FMArthur
2009-12-15, 12:52 PM
As for what everybody is saying, I'll just forget specifically the sorcerer, and go and describe the party for you.

Elven Paladin - Taking lots of minor sub-optimal choices combined with Paladin.
Elven Ranger - Focused on many combat irrelevant skills. Not a bad game plan, but won't support the party as well in a fight.
Elven Rogue - Doesn't grasp much of 3.5, and keeps making mistakes
Human Cleric - Nunchaku, Tower Shield, Destruction and Healing.
Human Sorcerer - Tan Bag of tricks. Might be better if it had more than approximately one use per day.
Dwarf Fighter - Taking the whole weapon focus tree and toughness.

My main issue is, do I pull punches, and if so, do I still award them xp as if I hadn't (So they don't fall behind)?

The sorceror can easily be as powerful as any two other players in this party with spell selection alone. Let him donate his money to the poor and take Toughness for every feat if he picks his spells moderately well.

Bagelz
2009-12-15, 12:55 PM
i don't see how a bag of tricks is severly underpowered.
What would you suggest this sorc waste his money on? bracers of armor and a ring of shield? That's about all i can think of. He cannot wear armor, he will not be using weapons to attack. Scrolls are a waste when you have daily spell slots.

ok an item that increase his charisma would be better, but nothing wrong with a bag of tricks.

Shademan
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
also remember that every encounter isnt a combat encounter.
what if there is some other way to get past the ogres? trick them into looking another way and sneak past them? convince them that youre the cave inspectors here to check the gas levels? etc etc

Melamoto
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
The sorceror can easily be as powerful as any two other players in this party with spell selection alone. Let him donate his money to the poor and take Toughness for every feat if he picks his spells moderately well.

Forgot to mention, he's a pure blaster.

BRC
2009-12-15, 01:00 PM
Forgot to mention, he's a pure blaster.
Somthing Sorcs are good at.
Don't go too hard on the party and it should be fine. Remember, it's not how optimized a character is that matters, it's how optimized they are compared to the rest of the party.

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 01:00 PM
I covered that with "Any creature with ranks in Hide and Move Silently"
The idea is that you don't need to have levels in Ninja to be a Ninja.

Yeah, Rogues make better ninjas than ninjas.

Pain~less
2009-12-20, 07:19 PM
Forgot to mention, he's a pure blaster.

Nothing wrong with that in Rhod. Lots of little Hobgoblins to fry. Really, they should be fine. See how it works out, adjustments can be made at a later time anyway.

AslanCross
2009-12-20, 08:09 PM
As far as the guy doing random stuff in games goes, this is pretty much par. My real problem here is wondering about whether he (Or the rest of the party - they are really unoptimized) will be able to make it through RHoD. Should I just treat them as a party of 4 for XP, or should I simply leave it as it is? Do I lighten the encounters, or simply modify them, or leave as is?

And I'm mostly fine with it anyway as long as he doesn't try flying above the enemy and abusing falling damage rules.

Leave them as is, or beef them up. You have a rather big party. Many of the encounters in RHOD are woefully overestimated by the writers.*

You might want to seriously rewrite the treasure the adventure hands out, though. Some of it is too expensive for its use---Vraath's +1 frost bastard sword, for one. Nobody's gonna use that, and the amount of GP that it takes up in the treasure space is not worth another piece of vendor trash.

*Notable exceptions:
1. Varanthian.
2. The entire Battle of Brindol sequence.
3. Marked for Death (but this is intentional and the writers DID intend for it to be a meat grinder)

Rasman
2009-12-20, 08:36 PM
I don't see ANYTHING wrong with it and it shouldn't be underestimated. Our fighter, in a different campaign, got something similar, except it was donkey's, and he couldn't find a use for it. He ended up killing a dragon by throwing donkey's at it. They didn't do a lot of damage, but there were a lot of them...

...true story...