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valadil
2009-12-14, 12:28 PM
One of the things I struggle with as a GM is requiring backstories and killing players. I don't like pulling punches, but I also don't like killing off a character with 5 pages of backstory, especially if the story hasn't resolved yet. Even if the player is cool with it, he's probably not going to put the same level of effort into building the next character.

As I'm planning on starting a game soon I was trying to come up with ways to reconcile this. I really like the idea of coming up with a mechanic for Plot Armor and I was wondering if any other players or GMs have seen anything like this.

What I was thinking was pretty simple. Each plot that a character is involved in buys them a point of Plot Armor (which I would call PA, but I'd rather not confuse it with Power Attack). That point can be spent once to somehow prevent death from happening. When that happens, the plot in question takes a turn for the worse. Basically, instead of killing the PC I make them suffer in story. If the PC somehow recovers that plot the Plot Armor may return.

On a meta level I like this, but I'm not sure how much sense it actually makes. It seems like we might end up with cases where the fighter almost died of a sword to the gut, but somehow pulled through. Oh look, he's been fired from the position at the guard. That feels contrived to me and I'm worried the players would feel the same way. Maybe this is something I should do in the background and not tell my PCs about?

I'm also worried about determining which plot to punish. The Gygaxian solution would be to roll a die. I feel like that would further the contrivance in the last paragraph. Maybe it should be a plot relevant to whatever almost killed the PC. The option I'm favoring as I write this is to pick by GM fiat and to screw the players over where I see fit.

So has anyone done this or seen something like it done? If not, how well do you think this would work?

--

Disclaimer: I am not writing rules to publish in books. I'm coming up with an informal system for play with friends who are happy to run with my rules as intended. There is no need to jackass proof my ideas. I know my rules are vulnerable to douchey players. I only want to see if the ideas are good/fun. If they work out, then I might consider defining them rigorously, keeping exploiter playstyle in mind.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 12:31 PM
Screw the backstory.

Seriously, do all the other characters know this backstory? No? Then what's the point of it?

If the player invents the backstory on the spot as he tells the others about his past, it makes no real difference to them.


Skip plot armor, if you want something to keep them alive, steal the 7th Sea drama die system.

Weimann
2009-12-14, 12:36 PM
I'm also of the opinion that background is given a bit too much credit, in general. The important thing, after all, is not what your character did before, but what she does now. As such, I find a well-developed personality to be worth more than a background essay.

Naturally, a backstory can help develop an idea about a character, but I mostly see it as help and justification for your personality, rather than something required in it's own right.

clockworkmonk
2009-12-14, 12:39 PM
I actually kind of like the idea, but keep it secret from the players. The key would be to make it story reasonable. or to back it up with a concept like fate. Perhaps a deity or spirit or something stepped in because it has plans for the character. Perhaps a deity or spirit opposed to the character's goal?

But yes, similar things do exist in plenty of systems. In the unisystem, particularly the Buffy and Angel RPGs, allow you to take disadvantages to come back to life. Legend of the 5 rings has each an advantage and disadvantage that make it so that if you would die, you don't. Such systems have been made, and they can work.

valadil
2009-12-14, 12:41 PM
Screw the backstory.

Seriously, do all the other characters know this backstory? No? Then what's the point of it?

Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.




If the player invents the backstory on the spot as he tells the others about his past, it makes no real difference to them.

Who said anything about what's being told to other players? PCs can have secrets.

Also, when I refer to plot armor, I'm not just talking about plots from the backstory. Plots can and do happen in the middle of the game. Even for players that don't write a backstory.

I also like backstory as a roleplaying aid. The more I plan ahead of time, the better I can RP my character at game start. While I like organic growth of characters, I don't think they should all start with a blank slate. You can't make a good first impression that way. I'd rather they have a jumping off point before the first game even starts.



Skip plot armor, if you want something to keep them alive, steal the 7th Sea drama die system.
That might be a useful suggestion. I like 7th Sea, but don't remember drama dice. I'll see how thosee work.

I'm not interested in any further discussion in the merits or timesinks of backstory. It's part of how I run games and I don't plan on dropping it. The players that come to my games are the types who write backstory, and I have no shortage of these players. Since backstory is going to be included in my games, I would like to discuss whether protecting backstory with Plot Armor is a worthwhile idea.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 12:43 PM
If you've ever played HoL, there is a Grace of God pool that I imported to DnD. It has a set number of points (usually a d4 per session), and the players don't know how many. The first person to attempt to call upon the grace of god, after the pool reaches zero, instead incurs the WRATH OF GOD!!!

Giegue
2009-12-14, 12:47 PM
I actually like your system, although I never thought about using it. I DID however, use creative DMing to get my PCs out of death many times. For example, one game the party was fighting a BBEG and they where basicly screwed, but right before the BBEG finished them off a suprise NPC came in and saved them. That NPC later to my suprise became a major part of the plot and was eventually starting to become a bit of a romantic intrest to one of the PCs. So, while a plot armor system is nice, it's not nessicary. Creative DMing can be plot armor in itself and can actually take your games in interesting directions and provide new plots to be explored.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 12:48 PM
Just because someone dies doesn't mean you, as the DM, can't benefit from the backstory. For example, in one game I'm playing there was a dwarven cleric of Pelor who achieved heroic status (level 7) and died to a huge fire elemental rampaging around town (which is, to any non-adventurer, a legendary beast). A few sessions later my wizard died and the party needed a cleric so I brought in a dwarven cleric of Pelor and said that he was investigating disturbances in the area caused by the lack of reports from the previous cleric. I mean, it's not every day that a powerful healer falls to a powerful creature likely called by a powerful wizard.

One character's back story ended and it in turn spawned a new one. One character died but his legacy still lived on. Don't pull any punches just because someone writes 5 pages of material. Take that material, scrape it of ideas, then drop it in game or use it as an adventure hook.

If you want "plot armor" that works with RAW then steal Eberron or Unearthed Arcana's action point system. That's better than saying "You die but you're such an adroit wordsmith that I stabilize you at -9 hp"

valadil
2009-12-14, 12:54 PM
One character's back story ended and it in turn spawned a new one. One character died but his legacy still lived on. Don't pull any punches just because someone writes 5 pages of material. Take that material, scrape it of ideas, then drop it in game or use it as an adventure hook.


I do like the idea of keeping the dead PC's plots alive. I'm not sure that that would be enough though. I still worry that the next PC would be halfassed. I know I lose interest in a game once my real character has died off. The one that follows is never as interesting.

FWIW, since the game I'm planning is 4e and resurrection is so readily available, I probably wouldn't use Plot Armor quite as described. Instead of preventing death, it would allow a resurrection. Each time you rez, plot armor would be expended. I've never liked how common resurrection is in D&D, but I don't like taking it out of the game entirely either. This should set a cap on it, but probably won't screw anyone over too badly either.

Swordguy
2009-12-14, 12:59 PM
Honestly, the best way I've found to handle character deaths is to involve the player.

As part of their backstory, the player is required to describe three or four fairly general ways in which they'd be OK with their PC dying (defending a pass against a great horde, dying to achieve revenge for someone they loved, etc). They are aware that they simply WILL NOT be allowed to die by the Great Will of the Macrocosm unless they are in one of those scenarios. Ideally, these ways will tie into their background in some way. If they would have died, they are saved in some miraculous manner (which means you'd better be good at improv as a GM).

Here's the thing: I've found that players under these conditions are a lot more "loose" about how they play - not over-optimizing or worrying about every single +1 during combat. They'll be more likely to try cool "swashbuckling" moves or take non-optimal actions ("I kick the chair at him, hoping to tangle his legs and make him fall over!") because they know that they aren't going to be overtly-penalized to being non-optimal in build or actions. This tends to lead to a much more "even" power curve between PCs, and a lot less tension between power gamers and non-power gamers in the group.

It also has the bonus of when you set up a scenario which could match the "death scene" of one of the PCs, you'd better believe they pay attention. And if you kill one, well - no bad feelings, since they were OK with it in the first place (and you have the paper to prove it!).

As you might guess, this is how 7th Sea handles character death. You literally cannot die, except by one of these preplotted scenes (or by deliberating taking a obviously-lethal action, such as opening your eyes in Porte space [which is an automatic "GM takes character sheet and tears it up in front of you" moment, no exaggeration] or sticking your head down a loaded cannon barrel and setting it off). I use this in all but my grimdark games (Call of Cthulhu, WFRP, Dark Heresy, especially gritty AD&D games) or during Paranoia. My players, at least, love it.

Grumman
2009-12-14, 01:09 PM
Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.
I think this is a rather poor way of achieving your goal. Your Plot Armour idea turns backstory into just another stat, precisely because it is contrived.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 01:11 PM
My own personal experiences suggest that plot armor or plot immunity for PC's is a mistake.

Here is the example I thought of when I read your first post.

I had a player get his character killed. It was really the players fault but he really liked his character and I had my own reasons for not wanting anyone to die just yet. I had, in fact, a pre-made encounter set to 'go off' as soon as the first character in the group died. I thought myself rather clever.

Basically the characters soul was intercepted by a mysterious being calling herself the "Obsidian Lady". She offered a deal to the deceased. She returns them to life in exchange for accepting a follower from her that would be along later (out of game, the player had to agree to take leadership at 6th level and I was going to design and run the cohort). The player agreed and the character was returned to life.

Unfortunately, the player decided that they had plot immunity and that I would go out of my way not to kill him. The fact that he got lucky a couple of times didn't help matters.

So a couple of weeks ago, I actually overheard these two statements from him to a new player at the table.

"It's in Sleepingbear's best interest not to kill my character. His plot won't work without me."

And...

"I don't actually want to die again. I don't want to owe the Obsidian Lady any more than I already do."

I should have known better but this was just driving home the point. So when I dropped a hook involving a Chimera, I pointed out, out of game, that not all plot hooks were level appropriate and that some could always be pursued later. The players decided to go after the Chimera anyway.

The player in question sent his Rogue/Ranger character into the cave to scout. I made all rolls out in the open. The character died and the player is much less cocky now.

The point is that if players don't feel that they can die, they become lazy, stupid and cocky. If you provide them with 'freebies', even with in game story consequences, they start to rely on the idea that you'll save them from any real harm. It becomes a crutch. You're not really doing them any favors and the game will suffer for it.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:12 PM
I think this is a rather poor way of achieving your goal. Your Plot Armour idea turns backstory into just another stat, precisely because it is contrived.

Interesting point. I'd argue that that's a reason to keep it secret from the PCs. Or at the very least, keep its inner workings secret from them, but let them be aware that plot armor exists in some form or another.


Honestly, the best way I've found to handle character deaths is to involve the player.

As part of their backstory, the player is required to describe three or four fairly general ways in which they'd be OK with their PC dying (defending a pass against a great horde, dying to achieve revenge for someone they loved, etc). They are aware that they simply WILL NOT be allowed to die by the Great Will of the Macrocosm unless they are in one of those scenarios. Ideally, these ways will tie into their background in some way. If they would have died, they are saved in some miraculous manner (which means you'd better be good at improv as a GM).


That's a cool idea. I worry that players would all come up with the same generic 'defending my homeland' death scenes, but that could probably be cured by running several games in this fashion.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:19 PM
The point is that if players don't feel that they can die, they become lazy, stupid and cocky. If you provide them with 'freebies', even with in game story consequences, they start to rely on the idea that you'll save them from any real harm. It becomes a crutch. You're not really doing them any favors and the game will suffer for it.

That's true. I've definitely lost interest in games after being saved from TPK by NPC intervention. On the other hand, I feel like if the players knew there was a limit to how many deaths they could be saved from, they'd get more cautious as their own personal death toll added up.

dsmiles
2009-12-14, 01:22 PM
Or, state that each player gets one freebie. They can choose which caracter of theirs to use it on. If they're not very attached (or the character is doing poorly) they can hoard it for later. Personally, I'd probably hoard it until we ran out of campaign, but I'm a cheapskate that way. :smallbiggrin:

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 01:23 PM
Umm. No.

The point is that it gives each character more story. I'm not interested in running a hackfest for a bunch of generic faceless bags of stats and XP.

A backstory really doesn't make it a hackfest or not a hackfest. A person can write a ten page long backstory, and still play a steriotypical chaotic neutral jerk in game, who doesn't bother to do anything other than slash and burn. He may even justify it in some way with his backstory.

Likewise, a char without any backstory at all, can be well developed, flavorful, and build a wonderful story in the world. What happens before the game is of the same importance to the story as the forward is in a book. Generally, pretty skippable.



I also like backstory as a roleplaying aid. The more I plan ahead of time, the better I can RP my character at game start. While I like organic growth of characters, I don't think they should all start with a blank slate. You can't make a good first impression that way. I'd rather they have a jumping off point before the first game even starts.

If you do, great. Everyone has different ways of building characters. Use what works for you. Don't require everyone else use what works for you.


That might be a useful suggestion. I like 7th Sea, but don't remember drama dice. I'll see how thosee work.

Each character receives x drama die per act. An act is roughly a plot mini-arc...figure 1-3 sessions, generally. X is the lowest stat in 7th Sea. I suggest using something based off stat modifiers in D&D, again rewarding those without dump stats.

The drama die can be added, retroactively to any roll. It is then handed to the DM, who can later in the act do the same. At the end of the act, all unused drama dice are converted to an XP bonus.

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 01:26 PM
Ah, so I can survive more easily in your games by spinning a yarn about my tortured childhood and unceasing determination to find my missing {insert relative here.} Heck, if I make it long enough, you might not even read it and miss the fact that I copy-pasted half of it from a Drizz't fanfic set in an alternate timeline where my long-lost uncle Elminster cast a spell in the past that gave me a birthmark which I then altered into a tattoo of Mystra granting me my sorcerous powers. Brilliant!

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) came to my mind immediately.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:35 PM
Likewise, a char without any backstory at all, can be well developed, flavorful, and build a wonderful story in the world. What happens before the game is of the same importance to the story as the forward is in a book. Generally, pretty skippable.


Is the backstory the forward or the prequel? The Hobbit isn't required reading for LotR, but it certainly helps. Whether backstory is a forward or a prequel (or even the first book of a trilogy) depends on the person writing it and the game they're playing. When I request backstories from players, I tell them that one of the things I find most useful is what they're doing at game start. Knowing why they came to town, who they know, and where they came from is more useful to me than the names of their parents and siblings and it's more relevant to that character's individual story.

Johel
2009-12-14, 01:36 PM
The Gods want you to live !!

As your (yet to happen) heroic deeds echoed through the Planes, they amused the gods. The gods are pleased. Some are pissed off for the temples you will one day desecrate/loot/burn but overall, they laught at your attempts to emulate them. Yes, the gods are pleased for you amuse them.
They ask for more !!

Roll 1d20.
The result is a exceptional Luck modifier that can be used to increase/decrease the last of the following rolls : save check, skill check, ability check, attack roll, caster level check.

The only restriction is that said roll must have directly contributed to your demise. AND DON'T TRY TO TRICK THE GODS TO THEIR OWN GIFT, FOR THEY CAN ALWAYS TAKE IT BACK...WITH A PAIN INTEREST !!

So basically, the DM *can* grant a single boon to a soon-to-be dead or maimed PC if he sees it fit. However, if that boon isn't enough, then it can means only one thing :


THE GODS HATE YOU !! PREPARE FOR ETERNITY, IT'S GOING TO BE LONG !!

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 01:39 PM
Roll 1d20.
The result is a exceptional Luck modifier that can be used to increase/decrease the last of the following rolls : save check, skill check, ability check, attack roll, caster level check.

The only restriction is that said roll must have directly contributed to your demise. AND DON'T TRY TO TRICK THE GODS TO THEIR OWN GIFT, FOR THEY CAN ALWAYS TAKE IT BACK...WITH A PAIN INTEREST !!

If you would have died/failed your extraplanar mission without the benefit of said bonus anyway, what have you got to lose?

RagnaroksChosen
2009-12-14, 01:40 PM
two points.

1. I would let the aquisition of PA be by accomplising story arcs or sessions or what not.
2. The only way i could see this working is via doing a bit of retconning when something bad happens...
So as an example a player gets the sword to the gut takes enough dmg to die... the player then uses a PA. SO instead of getting stabbed in the gut instead the sword sunders the players armour with no save, or some other item/ usefullness. Or have him loose some con as the injury cut deap but not enough to kill him.

May want to trade Items/ ability damage.


Thumbs up for ultra leathal games though... there the funnest.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:41 PM
Ah, so I can survive more easily in your games by spinning a yarn about my tortured childhood and unceasing determination to find my missing {insert relative here.} Heck, if I make it long enough, you might not even read it and miss the fact that I copy-pasted half of it from a Drizz't fanfic set in an alternate timeline where my long-lost uncle Elminster cast a spell in the past that gave me a birthmark which I then altered into a tattoo of Mystra granting me my sorcerous powers. Brilliant!

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) came to my mind immediately.

Possibly, but I wouldn't use these rules if I suspected my players would try to exploit them. I know my group pretty well and I'm not too worried about any of them.

Looking for your relative would absolutely earn one plot armor point if I used this particular system. It would be something that actually comes up in play, and your relative would probably be involved in other plots too. Writing 'a wizard gave me feats' in your backstory wouldn't give you sorcerous powers. I'm not entirely sure what it would do, but I'll get back to you if my PCs try it.

I would absolutely read all of your backstory, unless I figured out it was stolen.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:46 PM
two points.

1. I would let the aquisition of PA be by accomplising story arcs or sessions or what not.


That is something I'm still debating. I kind of like how in literature characters die when all their issues are resolved. I've seen this sort of modeled in games by PC's gods who say "get up and go live, you have more work to do." That's kind of what I'm going for with the whole thing, except that I'd like to define what 'more work to do' means in game terms.

I hadn't entirely figured out what a completed arc would mean. From a literary perspective, the character whose work is done can die, so the plot armor should be removed. But I don't think it's fair to punish PCs for completing their plots. The best compromise I've come up with is that they can use that plot for armor, but it won't replenish. Plots that are lengthy enough could save a PC several times over in the course of a campaign. A finished plot could only do so once.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 01:53 PM
So, optimize for length, difficulty to completely resolve, and ability to affect the storyline.

Awesome. Affecting the storyline is normally a plus for characters anyhow...granting them plot armor for doing so is like giving characters gold if they'll take these magic items off your hands.

Also, it's begging for a spotlight whore.

valadil
2009-12-14, 01:57 PM
So, optimize for length, difficulty to completely resolve, and ability to affect the storyline.

Awesome. Affecting the storyline is normally a plus for characters anyhow...granting them plot armor for doing so is like giving characters gold if they'll take these magic items off your hands.

Also, it's begging for a spotlight whore.

If my players are going to write long, difficult quests for me and be active in the storyline, then yes I am going to reward them for that. Why wouldn't I?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 02:13 PM
Lets say I, over the course of, 15 pages, perhaps, detail that I have the following backstory:

1. Been forced to memorize a magical tome, for which I do not know the purpose.

2. Am seeking to regain my lost magical family sword.

3. Have had my father/mother killed, and naturally, want venegance.

4. Have had mysterious magical effects of X nature happening for the past couple weeks, and have no idea what they mean.

5. Have an older brother who is quite successful in local politics, and wishes me to help him.

6. Have recently been poisoned, and need to find a cure.

7. Have a strange older, wise friend that gives me sage advise from time to time.

8. Just rescued a mysterious, beautiful stranger from certain death, and wish to help her.

9. Rumors abound of strange things loose in the woods near your home, and you have been investigating the local deaths involved.

Boom, I fleshed out tons and tons of backstory stuff, none of which actually writes quests for you...it merely forces you to somehow mesh all of these into your plot(s). You now have to do this for every character, and somehow make them all fit together. The more invulnerability garnered by throwing plot point after plot point at you, the more complicated everything gets.

Swordguy
2009-12-14, 02:20 PM
There's a difference between writing a interesting backstory, and being a douche. A player who came up to me with a backstory like that? A douche. Go rewrite, and be less of a douche.

Moreover, nobody should ever have to write rules that preclude people from being douches, because people will go out of their way to find a way to be a douche even with those rules in play. In this case, the OP's players clearly play in the way intended, and don't try to abuse the system. Therefore, why don't we concern ourselves with figuring out whether the system works when played in the manner it was intended, rather than if it's proof against jackass rules lawyers trying to exploit loopholes and/or making the DM's like difficult?

Finally, no backstory ever MUST be accepted by the DM. Which rather neuters most of your argument - backstory is inherently about fluff and fiat; hard-and-fast rules need not apply.

erikun
2009-12-14, 02:24 PM
The question I would like to know: How much does this backstory relate to the plot?

If it doesn't at all ("I come from a faraway land which you cannot get to as an orphan with no way to find my parents") then I don't think the 'Plot Armor to Retain Character Backstory' is really doing what you intend it to do. If the some major villian is related to multiple character's backstories and has dealt with the party already, then keeping one specific character around isn't necessary - the party will ultimately end up resolving the plotline, one way or another.

If the villian is related to only one character's story, then it would seem most practical to simply introduce him later as a generic BBEG. While the character hailing from the northlands may not be around to avenge his fallen village at the hands of the Big Bad, the party can still run into the Big Bad who's known as the evil dude which razed numerous villages in the northlands. Heck, if the players remember that Ralph's character came from the northlands, they might make it a point to look into his history to find out more about the BBEG.

It doesn't mean that Plot Armor is useless, or that it's a bad idea. Swordguy gives an interesting example of making it work. I'm just saying that Plot Armor, as a way to preserve Backstory, isn't the way I would use it.

valadil
2009-12-14, 02:26 PM
Lets say I, over the course of, 15 pages, perhaps, detail that I have the following backstory:

1. Been forced to memorize a magical tome, for which I do not know the purpose.

2. Am seeking to regain my lost magical family sword.

3. Have had my father/mother killed, and naturally, want venegance.

4. Have had mysterious magical effects of X nature happening for the past couple weeks, and have no idea what they mean.

5. Have an older brother who is quite successful in local politics, and wishes me to help him.

6. Have recently been poisoned, and need to find a cure.

7. Have a strange older, wise friend that gives me sage advise from time to time.

8. Just rescued a mysterious, beautiful stranger from certain death, and wish to help her.

9. Rumors abound of strange things loose in the woods near your home, and you have been investigating the local deaths involved.

Boom, I fleshed out tons and tons of backstory stuff, none of which actually writes quests for you...it merely forces you to somehow mesh all of these into your plot(s). You now have to do this for every character, and somehow make them all fit together. The more invulnerability garnered by throwing plot point after plot point at you, the more complicated everything gets.

Meshing plots together is my favorite thing to do as a GM. The only thing that makes it better is when other people come up with ideas so I have other plots to work with instead of the ones I came up with myself.

I would probably combine a few of your plots together, so they wouldn't actually be 9 instances of plot armor. If it actually became detrimental to the game, I could be convinced to limit how much plot armor any one character can have.

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 02:30 PM
Finally, no backstory ever MUST be accepted by the DM. Which rather neuters most of your argument - backstory is inherently about fluff and fiat; hard-and-fast rules need not apply.

Of course not. But by tying mechanical advantage to backstory, the DM must now scrutinize each one, creating additional work for himself.

If he's going to exercise "fluff and fiat" anyway, why not do it when the die is rolled, rather than creating a byzantine rules system beforehand to mask its use?

Sliver
2009-12-14, 02:40 PM
Lets say I, over the course of, 15 pages, perhaps, detail that I have the following backstory:

1. Been forced to memorize a magical tome, for which I do not know the purpose.

2. Am seeking to regain my lost magical family sword.

3. Have had my father/mother killed, and naturally, want venegance.

4. Have had mysterious magical effects of X nature happening for the past couple weeks, and have no idea what they mean.

5. Have an older brother who is quite successful in local politics, and wishes me to help him.

6. Have recently been poisoned, and need to find a cure.

7. Have a strange older, wise friend that gives me sage advise from time to time.

8. Just rescued a mysterious, beautiful stranger from certain death, and wish to help her.

9. Rumors abound of strange things loose in the woods near your home, and you have been investigating the local deaths involved.

Boom, I fleshed out tons and tons of backstory stuff, none of which actually writes quests for you...it merely forces you to somehow mesh all of these into your plot(s). You now have to do this for every character, and somehow make them all fit together. The more invulnerability garnered by throwing plot point after plot point at you, the more complicated everything gets.

Do you meet a strange woman in the woods and save her? The sword lets you harvest your anger?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 02:43 PM
Do you meet a strange woman in the woods and save her? The sword lets you harvest your anger?

Well duh, it's magic.

Presumably the world is also in danger from some sort of uber-powerful evil guy I'll need to defeat. Along with a long list of increasingly powerful minions.

valadil
2009-12-14, 02:43 PM
The question I would like to know: How much does this backstory relate to the plot?


I think it would have to be completeable. Ideally it would be something the players can do in their downtime. What I like is when the players have enough motivation that you can drop them in town and say "what do you do?" and they have several goals. I like ambitious PCs. Something that happened in a faraway land 20 years ago does not qualify.



If it doesn't at all ("I come from a faraway land which you cannot get to as an orphan with no way to find my parents") then I don't think the 'Plot Armor to Retain Character Backstory' is really doing what you intend it to do. If the some major villian is related to multiple character's backstories and has dealt with the party already, then keeping one specific character around isn't necessary - the party will ultimately end up resolving the plotline, one way or another.

If the villian is related to only one character's story, then it would seem most practical to simply introduce him later as a generic BBEG. While the character hailing from the northlands may not be around to avenge his fallen village at the hands of the Big Bad, the party can still run into the Big Bad who's known as the evil dude which razed numerous villages in the northlands. Heck, if the players remember that Ralph's character came from the northlands, they might make it a point to look into his history to find out more about the BBEG.

It doesn't mean that Plot Armor is useless, or that it's a bad idea. Swordguy gives an interesting example of making it work. I'm just saying that Plot Armor, as a way to preserve Backstory, isn't the way I would use it.

How common plots are shared is not something I've put much thought into - thank you for bringing it up. If I were to start GMing a game with plot armor right now, I'd probably ignore the common plots and see how the system works. If players have enough protection, then they wouldn't need it. If they're dying left and right, they would.

valadil
2009-12-14, 02:48 PM
There's a difference between writing a interesting backstory, and being a douche. A player who came up to me with a backstory like that? A douche. Go rewrite, and be less of a douche.

Moreover, nobody should ever have to write rules that preclude people from being douches, because people will go out of their way to find a way to be a douche even with those rules in play. In this case, the OP's players clearly play in the way intended, and don't try to abuse the system. Therefore, why don't we concern ourselves with figuring out whether the system works when played in the manner it was intended, rather than if it's proof against jackass rules lawyers trying to exploit loopholes and/or making the DM's like difficult?


Thank you for pointing that out. This thread has reminded me why I don't usually post homebrew rules. Rules that are homebrewed are often abusable if played as RAW. But since the homebrewer is present and running the game, they can be played as intended. If the rules prove to be good, they can be written with anti jackass clauses in mind.

I like gaming. I like messing with rules. I would never want to work for WotC. Writing books to keep your rules from being perverted by abusive players would take the fun out of it. Maybe next time I should include some message about automatically assuming that the rules are being used as intended, because I'm playing with friends, etc.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-12-14, 02:51 PM
A player who came up to me with a backstory like that? A douche. Go rewrite, and be less of a douche.

Ya, srsly.

This isn't going to be an official system for public use. It's going to be a loose, informal thing among a casual gaming group of friends. Try it for a sesion, maybe discuss it with them, see how they react. Your localized context is more important than our opinions.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 02:51 PM
Meshing plots together is my favorite thing to do as a GM. The only thing that makes it better is when other people come up with ideas so I have other plots to work with instead of the ones I came up with myself.

I would probably combine a few of your plots together, so they wouldn't actually be 9 instances of plot armor. If it actually became detrimental to the game, I could be convinced to limit how much plot armor any one character can have.

Let's put that to the test? How many points of plot armor/get out of death free cards would this backstory earn me?

Time to whore it up.

I think I’ll make a Rogue. Because whores use rouge.

Cal was a half-elf with a destiny. The village seer had said as much when he was born, “This child has a destiny”. Although what exactly that destiny might be, the seer would not say. Still, the blind seer took great interest in Cal’s upbringing and education.

It was this seer that made Cal memorize the Draco Mystere although he never explained why or where he had gotten the tomb. Not having a talent for sorcery, there was little benefit to Cal for reading, much less committing to memory the words printed within. What Cal does know is that this magical tome is no longer in the old seer’s possession though he greatly wants it back.

Growing up, Cal remembered practicing with his mother’s thinblade. A powerful relic from a bygone era that had been passed down the generations and would someday be his. Had those orcs not attacked that is.

They came, bellowing their praise to Grumuush as they slaughtered the people of the village. Cal would have died as well had his father not locked him in the cellar. While he could not see their fates, no cellar door could block the tortured cries of his parents-most especially those of his lovely mother. In the dark of the cellar he swore he eradicate all orcs from the face of the planet for what they had done. One day, he would hold the heart of Grumuush himself in his hands.

It would be days later before his older brother would happen back to the village. His brother, Sarage rarely found time to visit anymore. He was making a name for himself as an ambassador back at the capital city. He took his brother back to the city with him to take care of him. Sarage made it clear however, that someday he would definitely be calling upon Cal to repay the favor.

One other person survived the massacre of the village, the old blind seer. He made himself known to Cal within a week of arriving at his brother’s home. So it was that the old man continued to advise and educate Cal.

Recently, strange things have been happening in the woods near Cal’s home. There have been unexplained sightings weird occurrences. Being the curious sort, Cal took it upon himself to investigate. To make matters worse, there have been sightings of both vampires and werewolves in the area. It is unknown if these strange occurrences and the appearance of these monsters are related.

He discovered a woman of Gnomish persuasion being attacked by Kobolds. Cal intervened to save the lass but took a poisoned dart to the shoulder. Now he must find a cure to the slow working poison.

To make matters worse, the Gnome woman has asked him to assist her in reclaiming her kingdom, stolen from her by her evil step-dad. She was told that she would meet the saviour of her nation and her people in these woods and is convinced that person is Cal. Cal himself is not so convinced.

valadil
2009-12-14, 03:11 PM
Let's put that to the test? How many points of plot armor/get out of death free cards would this backstory earn me?


Awesome idea, bring it. I'll italicize as I go.

Time to whore it up.

I think I’ll make a Rogue. Because whores use rouge.

Cal was a half-elf with a destiny. The village seer had said as much when he was born, “This child has a destiny”. Although what exactly that destiny might be, the seer would not say. Still, the blind seer took great interest in Cal’s upbringing and education.

No plot here. I feel like this applies to everything else in the backstory.

It was this seer that made Cal memorize the Draco Mystere although he never explained why or where he had gotten the tomb. Not having a talent for sorcery, there was little benefit to Cal for reading, much less committing to memory the words printed within. What Cal does know is that this magical tome is no longer in the old seer’s possession though he greatly wants it back.

Cool! This is the sort of plot I wouldn't have thought of on my own, so I'm more than happy to work with it. PA=1

Growing up, Cal remembered practicing with his mother’s thinblade. A powerful relic from a bygone era that had been passed down the generations and would someday be his. Had those orcs not attacked that is.

Less interesting, but I can work with it. PA=2

They came, bellowing their praise to Grumuush as they slaughtered the people of the village. Cal would have died as well had his father not locked him in the cellar. While he could not see their fates, no cellar door could block the tortured cries of his parents-most especially those of his lovely mother. In the dark of the cellar he swore he eradicate all orcs from the face of the planet for what they had done. One day, he would hold the heart of Grumuush himself in his hands.

The way I read the last part implied that the orcs got the thinblade. I'd count reclaiming it as part of this quest. PA=2

It would be days later before his older brother would happen back to the village. His brother, Sarage rarely found time to visit anymore. He was making a name for himself as an ambassador back at the capital city. He took his brother back to the city with him to take care of him. Sarage made it clear however, that someday he would definitely be calling upon Cal to repay the favor.

Potentially another plot. This would not be plot armor at game start. Once the plot got rolling, it would snowball into another plotpoint. Whichever capital city he's from would absolutely be important to other characters. I guess I'll indicate potential PA with a +N after the amount you'd actually start with. PA=2+1

One other person survived the massacre of the village, the old blind seer. He made himself known to Cal within a week of arriving at his brother’s home. So it was that the old man continued to advise and educate Cal.

Nothing new here. Had this guy died it would have been harder to figure out where the tome fits. PA=2+1

Recently, strange things have been happening in the woods near Cal’s home. There have been unexplained sightings weird occurrences. Being the curious sort, Cal took it upon himself to investigate. To make matters worse, there have been sightings of both vampires and werewolves in the area. It is unknown if these strange occurrences and the appearance of these monsters are related.

Cool. Straightforward, but it works. Sounds like an easy starting point for early adventures. PA=3+1

He discovered a woman of Gnomish persuasion being attacked by Kobolds. Cal intervened to save the lass but took a poisoned dart to the shoulder. Now he must find a cure to the slow working poison.

Obviously the kobolds were displaced out of their natural habitat by the WoD PCs from the previous quest. Nothing new there. Poison dart is cool. When he talks to the seer he'd learn that only one other person knows how to make this poison, gaining insight into who stole the tome. Maybe some ritual from the tome ends up in the main plot, meaning that only this PC has the knowledge to disrupt it. This adds to other plots so no new armor. PA=3+1

To make matters worse, the Gnome woman has asked him to assist her in reclaiming her kingdom, stolen from her by her evil step-dad. She was told that she would meet the saviour of her nation and her people in these woods and is convinced that person is Cal. Cal himself is not so convinced.

Sounds like a good way to get the players travelling, so we'll call this a plot. I think the seer will be of the opinion that this must be Cal's destiny. I'm not entirely sure where this plot would end up. It would almost certainly be tied into another PC. PA=4+1.

It should be noted that I only intend to reward the players for plots they are actively working on. How this is determined will vary. I'd rather not draw up rules for it, because jackass players would exploit them. What it means though is that if the PC left with the gnome woman before dealing with the vampire/werewolf plot, he'd lose any bonus from it. Assuming he talks the other PCs into sticking around for that, he's starting the game with 4 resurrections. These wouldn't automatically happen. These would be resurrections that kelemvor allows. If he reached zero and died, the gods would say that the world has no use of him, and he stays dead. I realize I wasn't specific with kelemvor and resurrections initially. I hadn't thought that far ahead when I started the topic.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 03:33 PM
Awesome idea, bring it. I'll italicize as I go.

Time to whore it up.

I think I’ll make a Rogue. Because whores use rouge.

Cal was a half-elf with a destiny. The village seer had said as much when he was born, “This child has a destiny”. Although what exactly that destiny might be, the seer would not say. Still, the blind seer took great interest in Cal’s upbringing and education.

No plot here. I feel like this applies to everything else in the backstory.

It was this seer that made Cal memorize the Draco Mystere although he never explained why or where he had gotten the tomb. Not having a talent for sorcery, there was little benefit to Cal for reading, much less committing to memory the words printed within. What Cal does know is that this magical tome is no longer in the old seer’s possession though he greatly wants it back.

Cool! This is the sort of plot I wouldn't have thought of on my own, so I'm more than happy to work with it. PA=1

Growing up, Cal remembered practicing with his mother’s thinblade. A powerful relic from a bygone era that had been passed down the generations and would someday be his. Had those orcs not attacked that is.

Less interesting, but I can work with it. PA=2

They came, bellowing their praise to Grumuush as they slaughtered the people of the village. Cal would have died as well had his father not locked him in the cellar. While he could not see their fates, no cellar door could block the tortured cries of his parents-most especially those of his lovely mother. In the dark of the cellar he swore he eradicate all orcs from the face of the planet for what they had done. One day, he would hold the heart of Grumuush himself in his hands.

The way I read the last part implied that the orcs got the thinblade. I'd count reclaiming it as part of this quest. PA=2

It would be days later before his older brother would happen back to the village. His brother, Sarage rarely found time to visit anymore. He was making a name for himself as an ambassador back at the capital city. He took his brother back to the city with him to take care of him. Sarage made it clear however, that someday he would definitely be calling upon Cal to repay the favor.

Potentially another plot. This would not be plot armor at game start. Once the plot got rolling, it would snowball into another plotpoint. Whichever capital city he's from would absolutely be important to other characters. I guess I'll indicate potential PA with a +N after the amount you'd actually start with. PA=2+1

One other person survived the massacre of the village, the old blind seer. He made himself known to Cal within a week of arriving at his brother’s home. So it was that the old man continued to advise and educate Cal.

Nothing new here. Had this guy died it would have been harder to figure out where the tome fits. PA=2+1

Recently, strange things have been happening in the woods near Cal’s home. There have been unexplained sightings weird occurrences. Being the curious sort, Cal took it upon himself to investigate. To make matters worse, there have been sightings of both vampires and werewolves in the area. It is unknown if these strange occurrences and the appearance of these monsters are related.

Cool. Straightforward, but it works. Sounds like an easy starting point for early adventures. PA=3+1

He discovered a woman of Gnomish persuasion being attacked by Kobolds. Cal intervened to save the lass but took a poisoned dart to the shoulder. Now he must find a cure to the slow working poison.

Obviously the kobolds were displaced out of their natural habitat by the WoD PCs from the previous quest. Nothing new there. Poison dart is cool. When he talks to the seer he'd learn that only one other person knows how to make this poison, gaining insight into who stole the tome. Maybe some ritual from the tome ends up in the main plot, meaning that only this PC has the knowledge to disrupt it. This adds to other plots so no new armor. PA=3+1

To make matters worse, the Gnome woman has asked him to assist her in reclaiming her kingdom, stolen from her by her evil step-dad. She was told that she would meet the saviour of her nation and her people in these woods and is convinced that person is Cal. Cal himself is not so convinced.

Sounds like a good way to get the players travelling, so we'll call this a plot. I think the seer will be of the opinion that this must be Cal's destiny. I'm not entirely sure where this plot would end up. It would almost certainly be tied into another PC. PA=4+1.

It should be noted that I only intend to reward the players for plots they are actively working on. How this is determined will vary. I'd rather not draw up rules for it, because jackass players would exploit them. What it means though is that if the PC left with the gnome woman before dealing with the vampire/werewolf plot, he'd lose any bonus from it. Assuming he talks the other PCs into sticking around for that, he's starting the game with 4 resurrections. These wouldn't automatically happen. These would be resurrections that kelemvor allows. If he reached zero and died, the gods would say that the world has no use of him, and he stays dead. I realize I wasn't specific with kelemvor and resurrections initially. I hadn't thought that far ahead when I started the topic.


Not bad. Four, maybe five mulligans for about fifteen minutes work (although credit really must go to Tyndmyr as the plot points were all hers). The only thing I would argue with is that retrieving an ancestral sword (which may or may not still be in the hands of the orcs) is not the same as committing genocide on the scale where even the races god is a target. The desire for revenge stems from the slaughter (and more) of his parents.

As for pursuing these items, it wouldn't be too hard to maintain most of them. A couple of them just require that I kill orcs and ask around about my sword.

And that's from using some random internet persons points in a limited span of time. Given an evening I could optimize a story from scratch just as Tyndmyr has suggested. If that's what you want to encourage than I for one, certainly wouldn't object to reaping the rewards.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 03:41 PM
Not bad. Four, maybe five mulligans for about fifteen minutes work (although credit really must go to Tyndmyr as the plot points were all hers).

Mine? Hell, these are all from the first few pages of "A Wizard's First Rule", the first book in the sword of truth series.

valadil
2009-12-14, 03:49 PM
Not bad. Four, maybe five mulligans for about fifteen minutes work (although credit really must go to Tyndmyr as the plot points were all hers). The only thing I would argue with is that retrieving an ancestral sword (which may or may not still be in the hands of the orcs) is not the same as committing genocide on the scale where even the races god is a target. The desire for revenge stems from the slaughter (and more) of his parents.


I can see the sword as an argument. I might slide on it if you didn't have as many other plots going on. But overall I still feel like the sword is probably with the orcs and until you find out that's not the case, it would count as one plot. If it diverged later on it would count as two.

Keep in mind that the more plots you write, the more of them I can link together. A single plot gets a single point. Add in a second and it might be unique, or it might not. With three plots, there are three pairs I can merge plus the chance for all three to squish together.

Finally, if a player is really going to be cheesy about this (and I'm still going on the assumption that I'm only playing this way with friends who will oblige me and play nicely) my response is that "460 plots are too many for your level 1 character to start out with. Just beginning all those plots has earned him enough experience to push him into paragon tier. You are more than welcome to play this character once the rest of the group catches up to you or if you like you can choose your N favorite plots and drop the rest."

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 04:14 PM
Mine? Hell, these are all from the first few pages of "A Wizard's First Rule", the first book in the sword of truth series.

I remember that series now. Never read it myself but I dated a girl that did. She tried to get me to read the series but I never got around to it. And it's not like I was into her for her tastes in fantasy literature.

valadil,

My only goal here is to get you to consider how your plot armor might be used. I don't know your friends or their tendencies, only you do. So you can answer better than I if they'd abuse this system. I'm just saying that the potential for abuse is there. And I've known good friends who weren't above point whoring, being a douche or an ass hat when it came to the game. Heck, I've been occasionally accused of such behavior myself. ;)

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 04:15 PM
Mine? Hell, these are all from the first few pages of "A Wizard's First Rule", the first book in the sword of truth series.

Hmph. Should've went with my idea, a fanfic is at least harder to trace.


Ya, srsly.

This isn't going to be an official system for public use. It's going to be a loose, informal thing among a casual gaming group of friends. Try it for a sesion, maybe discuss it with them, see how they react. Your localized context is more important than our opinions.

I agree with this except, y'know, he asked us.

valadil
2009-12-14, 04:19 PM
valadil,

My only goal here is to get you to consider how your plot armor might be used. I don't know your friends or their tendencies, only you do. So you can answer better than I if they'd abuse this system. I'm just saying that the potential for abuse is there. And I've known good friends who weren't above point whoring, being a douche or an ass hat when it came to the game. Heck, I've been occasionally accused of such behavior myself. ;)

That's fair. I'm not above that sort of behavior either. I'm sure there are any number of measures that can be taken against douchey play. But before I go to all that trouble, I'd like to see if this sort of mechanic is worth it. It doesn't make sense to me to start figuring out caps for how much plot armor you can have or how many sessions you can go without investigating a plot if it turns out that it's a crappy idea. If plot armor doesn't add anything to the game, I'd rather abandon it now than try to prevent exploitation. If it does work out, then I'd be happy to try and figure out a way to incorporate it into the game without tempting the players to collect free one-ups in their backstory.

valadil
2009-12-14, 04:21 PM
I agree with this except, y'know, he asked us.

It's true. If I didn't care about playground opinions I wouldn't have asked. In retrospect I should have been more specific about being interested in how this would run for the ideal group, not how could jerkwad players break it.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 04:25 PM
True, but laziness makes for a better example. Personally, I read a ridiculous amount of books. I guess I average a couple novels a week, and at some times, I hit a few a day. There are a *lot* of books out there. The likelihood of you catching someone who blatantly rips off his backstory is...slim at best. If the person is bright enough to copy, paste, and find/replace from at least two sources, it's going to be effectively nil.

It's a system that is unenforcable, promotes optimization of backstories(an odd concept), and tends to promote spotlight hogging. It also may make death feel like it's not a threat at all.

Yes, your players may not do any of that. But why do you need such a system? How is it really any different from subjectively saving them via DM fiat? After all, determining how much plot armor each has is already subjective.

I see another system looking for a reason to exist, not a solution.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 04:26 PM
It's true. If I didn't care about playground opinions I wouldn't have asked. In retrospect I should have been more specific about being interested in how this would run for the ideal group, not how could jerkwad players break it.

For the ideal group, everything runs fine.

Let me know when you find them.

Sploosh
2009-12-14, 04:29 PM
Mine? Hell, these are all from the first few pages of "A Wizard's First Rule", the first book in the sword of truth series.

If an NPC approaches claiming to be your half brother...run like hell.

Ps. that guy was cool and I would love to RP an evil character based on him....hmmmm the possbilities...

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 04:33 PM
Yes, your players may not do any of that. But why do you need such a system? How is it really any different from subjectively saving them via DM fiat? After all, determining how much plot armor each has is already subjective.

I see another system looking for a reason to exist, not a solution.

This was my exact point. "Plot Armor" is little more than fiat in different clothing.

Look, our examples may have been hyperbolic, and nobody knows your own group better than you do, but our goal here is to save you lots of wasted energy and frustration meticulously vetting copious backstories - the end result of which is something you could easily do with a lot less work.

Grumman
2009-12-14, 04:36 PM
As for pursuing these items, it wouldn't be too hard to maintain most of them. A couple of them just require that I kill orcs and ask around about my sword.
I find it works better the other way around. :smallwink:

Sorcerer: "What have you done with my mother's sword!?"
Orc: *decays*

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 04:37 PM
I find it works better the other way around. :smallwink:

Sorcerer: "What have you done with my mother's sword!?"
Orc: *decays*

Speak with dead!

Sleepingbear
2009-12-14, 04:42 PM
Speak with dead!

Indeed. The group that I play in right now uses this spell so much, the Cleric got the artificer to make them a wand of it.

lord_khaine
2009-12-14, 04:43 PM
Alternative you could change the rules for dying a little, like saying that if you get below -9 you just get severly woundet, with a % chance depending on how far into negative went, of dying for real.

valadil
2009-12-14, 04:44 PM
For the ideal group, everything runs fine.

Let me know when you find them.

It would run fine, but wouldn't necessarily add to the game. As I said before, what I'm after is whether or not this would benefit the game.

My group is not ideal. But they are happy to oblige if I say "here are some new rules, please don't break them yet."

In the end, I don't know if promoting the optimization of backstory is a bad thing. I suppose I wouldn't be happy if my players copied and pasted their stories, so that's not something I'd like to encourage. I would still like to get them all to write backstories though, and this would certainly accomplish that.

How big of a reward is resurrection in 4e anyway? By default your characters can rez until they run out of money. If someone optimized their backstory and ended up with 10 potential resurrections, they're still weaker than a standard character. It's not like each plot buys you an extra feat, stat point, or spell slot.

I haven't seen much done to address the idea of not telling the players about this part of the system. Would that be unfair? If I told them they had finite resurrections before Kelemvor intervened and they occasionally saw me ripping up cards that said 'plot armor' they'd figure out something was up, but would be in no position to exploit it. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to get complaints that rules should be transparent in and out of game?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 04:46 PM
Yeah...backtrack to the problem. Are people dying too often?

Compare different means of fixing that before getting crazy with complicated details.

The pathfinder system of not dying until your negative hp equal your con score(and having a fort save to stabilize) is much less harsh than standard 3.5, for example. Works decently well. 4e is already hard to actually die in, so it shouldn't need much in the way of changes.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-14, 04:49 PM
I haven't seen much done to address the idea of not telling the players about this part of the system. Would that be unfair? If I told them they had finite resurrections before Kelemvor intervened and they occasionally saw me ripping up cards that said 'plot armor' they'd figure out something was up, but would be in no position to exploit it. Why do I have a sneaking suspicion that I'm going to get complaints that rules should be transparent in and out of game?

Rule transparency is desirable. It's remarkably hard to play a game when you don't know the rules. Thus, any system that requires rules be unknown is going to be an issue. Either it results in eventual discovery(perhaps not of the details, but the basic idea, at a minimum), or players feeling that the decisions are arbitrary. This solution is no better than if the decisions actually are arbitrary.

valadil
2009-12-14, 05:28 PM
Yeah...backtrack to the problem. Are people dying too often?

Compare different means of fixing that before getting crazy with complicated details.


Sure.

Problem 1 - I'd like to model plot armor. Red shirts can die. Characters with plot should have a harder time with that. I'd like to model this because it bothers me when interesting characters with lots of backstory die because of a hyperactive d20.

Problem 2 (which I hadn't realized I was addressing until this post) - I think death is too trivial in D&D. It should be more permanent.

The solution I've seen to problem 2 is to limit resurrections. It was arbitrarily decided that each character can rez twice, but after that they won't come back any more. This worked pretty well.

Instead of 3 lives each, I'd like to let plottiness determine how many lives a character gets. I think this will help fix 1 and it's more interesting than the solution I saw for 2.

Your original suggestion of doing away with backstory would indeed solve problem 1. Too bad I'm unwilling to GM a game without backstory.

Grumman
2009-12-14, 05:46 PM
Problem 1 - I'd like to model plot armor. Red shirts can die. Characters with plot should have a harder time with that. I'd like to model this because it bothers me when interesting characters with lots of backstory die because of a hyperactive d20.
You are taking the term "plot armour" too literally. When most people use the term "plot armour", they aren't talking about points of character background acting as ablative armour. If you want more important characters to be less likely to die, just do that: either give PCs a larger negative HP buffer, or give some of their opponents reasons to not kick people when they're down.

Megaduck
2009-12-14, 06:05 PM
In my opinion, the goal of the DM is to make sure the players end the session with no spells left and they're down to 1 HP. This preserves the tension and maintains the illusion that they can be killed.

The way you do this is by very selectively fudging your rolls. If the orc does 5 damage and but the player only has 4 hp left then the orc only did 3 damage. If the player needs to roll a 14 to make the save and they only make a 13 then you quietly change it and say they make it.

I dislike in a plot intensive game for the dice to be determining the outcome. I always tell my players that the dice will never kill them, the dice will only save them. The only thing that will get a PC killed is a stupid decision. I always caveat that however, with the warning that a failure to run away counts as a stupid decision.

taltamir
2009-12-14, 10:18 PM
I think you should just give each character a "Fate Point" (to rip off arcanum) on level 1 and every X levels. (or big action). You can limit the amount they can store too if it seems like a problem.
Fate point can be cashed in to "almost, but not die" (but still be out of encounter; but not wasted on diplomacy, as in... he is injured, but he survived, wakes up in X)... Maybe a few other neat uses.

Or maybe start them up with 3 and no regen.

Anyways, if the character eats up all his fate and still dies... well he wasn't a very well built character... aka, he should have just retired.

As for backstory, my favorite is "he had a happy childhood, he has two loving parents who are such and such and maybe siblings, and he had a boring life and now wants adventure", if he had anything BUT a boring life he wouldn't be level 1 :).

DabblerWizard
2009-12-14, 10:21 PM
One of the major reasons my players enjoy sitting at my gaming table, has to do with my willingness to work with them. I appreciate the hard effort they put into their backgrounds, and I work hard in turn, to accommodate their interests into the story as a whole. I do all of this because I believe I should.

If a player ends up dying, I won't just drop the ball and expect them to roll up a new character instantly. On the other hand, I won't just hand them a free resurrection. I do think that mechanic, should be rare, expensive, and in control of certain powerful figures in-game.

I'd allow players to travel to the Shadowfell to [insert mini-quest here] retrieve the soul of their fallen friend, for instance. My players would love that sort of thing. That seems a lot more fun than completely disregarding the time and effort I know my players put into their characters.

Plot armor seems like a meta-gaming mechanic that is potentially beneficial. I just personally prefer in-game solutions to problems like that. It enhances realism by not artificially turning the tide, by just letting the story take its course.

taltamir
2009-12-14, 10:29 PM
dabbler, that sounds really interesting...
I'd like to try that once.

starwoof
2009-12-14, 10:53 PM
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has a system called 'Fate Points'. You get a random number of them at character creation (based on race) between 1 and 3. You can spend them to get your character out of death free. Once. And then they are gone forever! :smalleek: And your character always comes out maimed or captured or otherwise incredibly inconvenienced by their use.

However, you can earn them back by doing awesome things. Generally when you SHOULD have died, but didn't, you get a fate point back.

It's a really good system. I kinda want to try it in DnD.