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View Full Version : Optimisation Challenge: The Lurk (3.5)



D-naras
2009-12-14, 02:20 PM
So I got involved in a psionic campaign and I thought I'd try out the Lurk class. After examining it, I found it really interesting and *gasp* balanced for a mid powered game. Anyone knows what Tier this is? 3 perhaps?

Anyway, although I found the class worthy of playing in a casual way, I would like to know how someone can make the Lurk optimised in combat and stealth. My bet is on taking advantage of the Mental Assault Augment, but I can't think of anything else to combo it with.

Care to share ideas with me on the subject? Any optimisation idea is good for me. I will begin play at 7 level, but any theoritical build will do! Thanks playground :smallsmile:

erikun
2009-12-14, 02:38 PM
Tier 4, actually. It doesn't match the damage of a Psychic Warrior or Psychic Rogue, doesn't have trapfinding, and less skill points than the Rogue. Augments are only available so many times per day, and are basically the only class feature. They can do more damage than a Rogue in a face-to-face fight, sure, but neither the Lurk nor the Rogue will last long like that with only d6 HD.

Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723a) and others, for your enjoyment.

That said, I've considered running a Lurk/Psion Uncarnate, simply because floating through doors, automatically succeeding Move Silently checks, and being immune to physical damage (ie. traps) sound like a fun way to get around. :smallsmile: Oh, and touch attack sneak attacks. Psion Uncarnate can be found in the XPH and over here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionUncarnate.htm).

Other than that? You have an okay power list. Not as amazing as a Psychic Warrior with Expansion + Lion's Charge, bust stuff like Synthete, Concealing Amphoria, and Psionic Knock can help you out. Note that I haven't played a Lurk myself, so there may be better powers that I'm forgetting.

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 02:41 PM
If it's not too late, use the alternative augments from Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) - Trapfinding is a huge boost to the Lurk's power.

Without that list, I'd put them around Tier 4 - capable of a variety of tasks, but not truly excelling in any one of them. Depending on the transparency rules in play, UPD can be a big boost to their versatility.

Animefunkmaster
2009-12-14, 02:58 PM
There aren't any prestige classes that I find particularly useful to the Lurk. So straight lurk seems your best bet. Feats that jump out at me are: Lurk Master (2 extra levels aint bad, the dm might let it count your 7th level as 10th for the purposes of 2 augments), Link Power (because I would rather buff than use anything with a DC, this helps with buffs in so many ways), Psycrystal Affinity (can help with scouting, they eventually get telepathy and can pick up mindsight), also the painfully obvious Lurk Augment, Extra (bland, but more augments is better than not).

The other thing I found was the Mind's Eye Expanded Classes. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) There isn't much for the lurk but the true thief isn't a bad option.

Since good sneak attack is limited to a single attack, I would pick up something that lasts a little longer than single attack damage. I made a post before about ambush feats that are worth it and came up with these two:

Weaken the Heart (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Weaken_the_Heart,Dragon)(Dragon Mag): DC is 10 + 1/2 class level + int, lasts 10 minutes, any time they do a str/dex/con based skill check they become fatigued... if already fatigued, they become exhausted. Really nasty but for the low low price of two sneak attack dice.

Staggering strike (CAd): Not really an ambush feats, anytime you hit someone with a melee sneak attack they must make a fort DC damage or become staggered (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/injury.htm). Limits enemies actions on there round.

Otherwise I would pick up feats that work when you are focused (since you will probably never want to lose your psionic focus. Up the Walls, Speed of Thought, Focused Skill User.

D-naras
2009-12-14, 03:09 PM
The problem with the True Thief ACF is that the lurk has neither Search nor Disable Device as Class Skills. Also they dont have enough skills points for that. Still I am using that with house ruled 8+Int skills per level and basicaly the rogue skill set. :smalltongue:

My feats are Extra Augment, Master Lurk and Craven for now. The campaign will surely be a slaughterfest so with my WBL i got the basics for an adequate AC (about 22).

How would you build a fighting Lurk with the above changes?

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 04:28 PM
If you're houseruling Lurk that far, I would just use Psychic Rogue and give them the Lurk power list and progression. A Lurk is closer to a psionic assassin than a psionic rogue anyway.

You will definitely want Psionic Meditation no matter what you do - many of your abilities depend on being consistently focused.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-14, 04:32 PM
Anyone knows what Tier this is? 3 perhaps?


Personally, I would probably place it somewhere around Tier 5 since it is worse in almost every way than Rogue (Tier 4).

jeek
2009-12-14, 04:38 PM
The problem with the True Thief ACF is that the lurk has neither Search nor Disable Device as Class Skills. Also they dont have enough skills points for that. Still I am using that with house ruled 8+Int skills per level and basicaly the rogue skill set. :smalltongue:

I contacted the author of the class, and the lack of those skills was an oversight caused mostly by lack of proofreading due to bitterness over the end of Dungeon, Dragon, and/or Mind's Eye.

Animefunkmaster
2009-12-14, 04:40 PM
Also The Augment Reach Attack... needs some proofreading (as in its not there at all).

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-14, 06:56 PM
Personally, I would probably place it somewhere around Tier 5 since it is worse in almost every way than Rogue (Tier 4).

That could be debated. Depending on the power you can extract from Use Magic Device, a Rogue could do insane amounts of things just by having the right wand or scroll. The Lurk does something similar, except that it can do more with psionic items than the Rogue with magic items.

Reasons are as follows: first, the Rogue and the Lurk can pretty much devote themselves to raising UMD and Tumble and call it a day. However, while the Rogue pretty much depends on a successful UMD check to activate most magic items, a Lurk doesn't need UPD for activating some psionic items, considering those items are on the Lurk's power list. Second, a Rogue can't use Extra Spell at the same degree that a Lurk can use Expanded Knowledge, which is by far one of the best feats around. This becomes painstakingly obvious when you reach higher levels and suddenly get to Metamorphosis, which is pretty much all you want to do with Alter Self/Polymorph. Furthermore, they can use just as all other psionic classes items such as psicrowns, dorjes, power stones, cognizance stones and even psicrystals (if you get the feat, that is).

Consider that the original notion of the tier system was how well it worked out of the box, without much optimization. A Lurk can use all psionic items almost from the very beginning, only hitting a halt on the rough lack of skills (considering that the traditional system makes the Rogue have more skill points than every other single skill-monkey-ish class, the Lurk isn't that bad of a skill monkey, considering they need and thrive on Int) and the psionic powers. Unless it was errata'ed or something, Psionic Sneak Attack works so as long as you get Psionic Focus active, so it only gets worse if you expend it: even though it's not that strong, it's pretty good since you can accumulate the damage dice. Finally, the powers aren't so bad (some of them are surprisingly good, and having up to 6th level powers means quite a lot).

Compare to the Rogue. Rogue has the original Sneak Attack, but it requires a lot to make it work right: two of the successful methods (either using alchemical items or, in the least of the cases, getting as many attacks as possible) require some hefty level of optimization. Evasion is golden, and it's early, which is a saving grace. Uncanny Dodge and Imp. Uncanny Dodge are good too, but are mostly defenses to what the Rogue can already do. Trapfinding is worthless with Find Traps, Trap Sense can only do so much, and it mostly depends on the DM to provide traps for the Rogue to work with. Most of the Rogue's useful skills are pretty much replaced by magic, including and not limited to Hide (Invisibility), Move Silently (Silence), Search (Detect Magic, Arcane Eye, Find Traps), Appraise (Identify, Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore), Tumble (any swift action teleport spell), Open Lock (Knock), Disable Device (just frickin' destroy or dispel the trap), Bluff (Glibness), Diplomacy (Charm Person, Dominate Person and better), Intimidate (Cause Fear and other fear spells). The one skill that surpasses the rest is UMD, because it allows the Rogue to work well on par with the casters.

The Lurk, in comparison, can do Hide well (Cloud Mind, Chameleon), Search (Elfsight, Touchsight), and so Tumble (Psionic Dimension Door) and Open Lock (Psionic Knock). Yet, it can do a lot more, including and not limited to various immunities (Psionic Freedom of Movement and Psionic Mind Blank). Since they reach 6th level, again Expanded Knowledge does a hefty lot. Those options are absent from the Rogue, whom depends on UMD while the Lurk doesn't depend much on UPD. Even further, the Lurk has methods of making Sneak Attacks to creatures to which the Rogue would require UMD to even think on hitting; furthermore, there are a few augments that are more dangerous than you think (specifically Mental Assault, which punishes anything that has no immunity to ability damage by just doing a single attack, and Synaptic Disconnect which has the chance of seriously crippling a spellcaster). Finally, it has some of the best skills around (Autohypnosis, Tumble, UPD, you may add Escape Artist), and a good amount of skill points to work that out (since it would be hilariously stupid to give a low Int score to a lurk, even for Dex)

Using the tier definitions, I'd say the Lurk's powers make the Lurk a seriously good Tier 4, perhaps even Tier 3. Definitely not Tier 5, as it can do far much more than a Ranger or Paladin with little effort. You can make it a definite Tier 3 depending on how strong you consider UPD to be, just as how UMD causes a single character to raise an entire tier just because it's so darn good.

Of course, the Lurk isn't as strong as a Psionic Rogue, but that's because the Psionic Rogue's pretty much the Rogue chassis with added powers/skills (and replacing UMD with UPD). But, both are surely stronger than the Rogue, even with Sneak Attack on tow, given that they don't need as much magic items to do their job than the Rogue needs to (and even then, Rogue is still a strong class). In fact, I think someone else mentioned it: Lurk isn't exactly a Psionic "Rogue", but a Psionic "Assassin" class that works better than the Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) made before (though, it fits the idea of a "stalker" rather than an "assassin"). The main problem with Lurk was that it was introduced without granting it the assistance of the Mind's Eye former data, which pretty much enhances it. Thus, most people think of the Lurk as "keep it as is or use Ebon Saint which sucks", without considering that the concept of a psionic stalker has existed on other books. Complete Adventurer and Mindspy come to mind, just in case.

erikun
2009-12-14, 07:27 PM
I'm not going to quote it all, but T.G. Oskar pretty much hit the reasoning on the head. Psionic powers can really add functionality to a class. Just look at the Fighter (Tier 5) compared to the Psychic Warrior (Tier 3).

Now, the Lurk does have several problems. Their sneak attack damage isn't as good, they have less skill points, and their power list is nowhere near as effective as the Psychic Warrior. They have no way to deal with traps outside of power use, making them poor replacements for the Rogue. However, the powers the do have are incredibly useful: Compression for AC/Hide bonus, Cloud Mind for poor man's invisibility, Synesthete for seeing in the dark. You can even pick up Astral Construct for dozens of uses.

While the rogue does get more skill points and better damage potential, they simply can't do what a Lurk can. The Psychic Rogue is clearly better than both of them (best of both worlds), but there is no way the Lurk ends up as low as Tier 5. Psychic Rogue is probably Tier 3.

Optimystik
2009-12-14, 09:40 PM
I'm with erikun on this one, the Lurk isn't bad enough on its own to be Tier 5. Psionics, like magic, make a lot of difference in a class' usefulness, and they get a higher level of powers than the PR. They also get UPD - depending on the transparency rules in play or the setting, that helps their versatility immensely.

The key to the Lurk, as I said before, is to treat it like an Assassin rather than a Rogue. Use your powers to stalk and kill prey. Throw your enemies into disarray, and pick them off one by one. They even get Death Attack (from the ACF) - combine that with their Initiative Boost and powers and you can have a deadly striker. And while they require a bit more micromanagement than rogues in combat, they can also take on foes that would give a rogue pause.

What makes them weaker than an Assassin is primarily the lack of support in other books, which is a failing of every psionic class (or more accurately, a failing of WotC in general.)