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drevil
2009-12-14, 04:18 PM
Think about it.

The dwarven city Mygrir has declared a war against the drow city of Silversong.
Will the heroes (ECL 15) join the dwarven army in a dull unoriginal longlasting war?

-OR-

Will they DISGUISE (maxed out) themself as drows,
BLUFF/DIPLOMACY (maxed out) pass the Gates of Silversong,
BLUFF/DIPLOMACY through the Guards protecting the Drow King,
and then assasinate that bastard to demoralize the drows?

I think skills such as bluff, disguise, diplomacy and hide have a great tactical potential.

Do you agree?

Where can I find a list of different actions that can be done with a given skill?
There are many creative hide maneuvers other than those listet in PHB.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-14, 04:34 PM
There's certainly a lot you can do with social skills, though combat is often more entertaining. If you mean optimizing them to powergaming levels, there are definitely ways to do it. Diplomancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56278) builds get diplomacy bonuses high enough to make anything friendly to them in a single round, and with the Glibness spell it's easy to get extremely high Bluff checks. Intimidate optimization is rarer, but there's a feat called Imperious Command that lets you make anyone you intimidate cower for one round; combined with various boosts to Intimidate, you can instantly incapacitate enemies.

Thurbane
2009-12-14, 08:16 PM
Where can I find a list of different actions that can be done with a given skill?
There are many creative hide maneuvers other than those listet in PHB.
Assuming you're talking 3.5, then the Rules Compendium has the most comprehensive list of uses for the various skills.

erikun
2009-12-14, 08:34 PM
In 3.5e, the Diplomancer wins the cake. Bonus points if it happens to be a Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer__are_you_serious). :smallamused:

4e is a bit better, both because diplomancy isn't so abusive and because CHA-builds can still be effective in combat. I ran a Gnome Paladin focusing on INT and CHA, with skill training in Diplomacy and Insight. (He was going to multiclass into Bard, for training in Bluff and Streetwise.) The reason for Paladin is the Glittergold's Gambit feat from Forgotten Realms, which will let any ally re-roll an attack or skill check. So I could re-roll myself if I botch the diplomancy roll, or re-roll an ally who just stuck his foot in his mouth, or help out in a non-social skill challange. It's even good in combat.

INT/CHA also allowed me to run around in Hide armor - very handy for not slowing me down or clanking when I walk.

Giegue
2009-12-14, 08:48 PM
The imperious command feat sounds interesting, I will have to try it out sometime, if it makes them immoble in fear instead of scared and running away like most fear spells usually do it could essentially be a psudo hold person for a dread necro. I like Intimidate on dread necromancers, it allows them to use their high charisma and dark reputation in places other then combat. The other social skills can be fun as well, so much so in fact that I am in the process of homebrewing a social skill focused class that has a politician theme to it. They get some spells mind you, though their spell list is quite limited and is mostly spells that can give them an edge in negotiations such as "Charm Person" or other spells that can help with social skill related things. There will also be PRCs for said class that focus on certain social skills such as an evil themed class focusing on the more "evil" skills like intimidate and bluff and has an evil mastermind/corrupt politician feel to it and a more "good" PrC focused on being a negotiator and peacemaker. The class' main drawback is it's utter lack of combat skills, they are the face of the party and the party's talker, pure and simple. However, they don't really need combat as when facing creatures who are not animals/unable to be talked to they most likely can and will sway others to their side.

But enough on my homebrew ideas, that's for the homebrew forum. As for social skills, I love them if I can take them, so much so that my first character in all of D&D history was a social skill based character. A rogue who basically served as a negotiator and the party's face. That character had little in the way of real combat power(though she was a decent bow user and was a master of long range sneaks.) A lot can be done with social skills, however, most classes will never have acsses to them unless you put points into int.

Any charisma class can be a good social skill user, but many don't have enough skill points to use multiple social skills. The diplomancer type builds and my dread necros with maxed intimidate may be VERY good at using one social skill, but they will never have as many social skill options as a rogue or bard with their high skill points per level. If you want to specialize in social skills, you will take bard or rogue, end of story. If you like arcane casters(which I LOVE) and want to be really good with one social skill or MAYBE 2 if you have the intelligence, then take a sorcerer, warmage, dread necromancer ect... and chose a social skill and go to town.

In fact, I can actually see a warmage doing the social skill thing well, with warmage edge being depended on intelligence and all. They would generally have more int then a normal sorcerer and thus have more skill points to dump into social skills as well as the required spellcaster skills(spellcraft, concentration, knowledge arcane and/or religion) Take human for the extra skill points and have a ball.

ghashxx
2009-12-14, 11:04 PM
Bonus points if it happens to be a Jumplomancer (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870138/The_Jumplomancer__are_you_serious). :smallamused

Holy cow wrapped in tinsel. That is just so special, and amazing. I'm going to have to do this and just watch my DM's jaw drop.

AslanCross
2009-12-14, 11:10 PM
Holy cow wrapped in tinsel. That is just so special, and amazing. I'm going to have to do this and just watch my DM's jaw drop.

Or drop rocks on your character.

drevil
2009-12-15, 07:29 AM
In 3.5 CORE, diplomacy is not very game-breaking.

Powerful, yes, but Diplomacy have its limitations:
1. Speak same language as NPC
2. NPC smart enough (INT > 3)
3. NPC able to hear your honeysweet words
4. NPC willing to hear you (paying attention to what you have to say)

Using Diplomacy in combat is difficult.
In real-life fights, I would never pay attention to what my oppnent say.
Even if he display manners.

A Bard could use facinate + diplmacy in combat.


Also the DC-table in the Diplomacy skill description is only to be used as a guidance.
It only take the attitude in its consideration.
The table doesn't diffrensiate wether it's a peon or a Balor you are speaking with.
According to PHB and DMG, a DM decide the DC according to the situational circumstances.

Atlast, diplomacy is not a charm person spell.

Would a CORE +80 diplomacy skill check convince the Balor to give away his +1 vorpal longsword to charity?

What do you think?

Dixieboy
2009-12-15, 07:47 AM
Or drop rocks on your character.

The diplo/jumplomancer will just befriend the rock.:smallwink:




Would a CORE +80 diplomacy skill check convince the Balor to give away his +1 vorpal longsword to charity?

What do you think?
Yes?
It's +80 dude.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 07:51 AM
That jumplomancer actually doesn't work... his jump check is a +360 something, when he needs a 900 in order to stay in the air for ten rounds.

hamishspence
2009-12-15, 07:51 AM
Even charm spells apparently won't make somebody do something they would strenuously object to.

Why would diplomacy do better?

Cyclocone
2009-12-15, 07:57 AM
Even charm spells apparently won't make somebody do something they would strenuously object to.

Why would diplomacy do better?

Because of Epic skill usages (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy).

hamishspence
2009-12-15, 08:14 AM
"Will give life to serve you" is pretty impressive.

But the base personality of the creature is the same- would "ordering creature to act extremely against its normal personality" cause the Fanatical creature to start shifting away from fanatical?

Say, ordering a demon to spend the rest of eternity being nice to people and to never commit another evil act again?

Optimystik
2009-12-15, 08:27 AM
"Will give life to serve you" is pretty impressive.

But the base personality of the creature is the same- would "ordering creature to act extremely against its normal personality" cause the Fanatical creature to start shifting away from fanatical?

Say, ordering a demon to spend the rest of eternity being nice to people and to never commit another evil act again?

"For you, master, ANYTHING!"

Well, all they need is Protection from Good, Mindblank etc. to suppress the fanatical attitude, so it's not 100% foolproof.

But I don't see why you're surprised - skill checks have a history of being more powerful than spells (e.g. Hide beating True Seeing.)

Cyclocone
2009-12-15, 08:40 AM
Well, it does say: "Treat the fanatic attitude as a mind-affecting enchantment effect".
So just think of it as automatic Mindrape.


...Well, it's ELH. What did you expect?:smallsigh:

drevil
2009-12-15, 09:12 AM
The Diplomacy DC-table is only a guidance.
It only take the attitude in its consideration. Nothing more.
Do you think the DC is same against a peon and a demon?!?

PHB page 63: the DM can adjust the DC.

Optimystik
2009-12-15, 10:23 AM
The Diplomacy DC-table is only a guidance.
It only take the attitude in its consideration. Nothing more.
Do you think the DC is same against a peon and a demon?!?

PHB page 63: the DM can adjust the DC.

The idea is that someone optimizing Diplomacy (Like a Diplomancer) can hit any DC. If the DM sets it high enough, he is effectively applying rule zero.

But of course, Diplomancer is a theoretical build and not meant for actual play.

Elan uses some Diplomancy in Dungeon Crawlin' Fools, and the Giant lampshades the entire absurd process:

Elan: "That was mean! Fine, I'm making a Diplomacy check right... NOW!"
Tied-up Goblin 1: "ARGH!! NO!!!"
Tied-up Goblin 2: "Feel my opinions... inexplicably changing!"

The goblins then become eager to assist.

thubby
2009-12-15, 10:55 AM
That jumplomancer actually doesn't work... his jump check is a +360 something, when he needs a 900 in order to stay in the air for ten rounds.

the jumplomancer's speed drops like a rock after they take off, and they can't move more in a round jumping than their land speed, which is what hangs them in the air according to raw.

drevil
2009-12-15, 11:45 AM
The idea is that someone optimizing Diplomacy (Like a Diplomancer) can hit any DC. If the DM sets it high enough, he is effectively applying rule zero.




I forgot to mention: I was talking CORE.




The Diplomacy DC-table is only a guidance.
It only take the attitude in its consideration. Nothing more.
Do you think the DC is same against a peon and a demon?!?

PHB page 63: the DM can adjust the DC.


Would a CORE +80 diplomacy skill check convince the Balor to give away his +1 vorpal longsword to charity?

Its quite difficult to beat a CORE Diplomacy DC 90.

My point is:
In CORE, Diplomacy is not too game breaking.

Do you agree?

hamishspence
2009-12-15, 11:49 AM
If Core is defined as the SRD, Fanatic is always an option.

If Core is only the first 3 books, Helpful can be defined as "but not stupidly helpful" and the problem may be less bad.

Zaq
2009-12-15, 11:52 AM
Going back to the OP, I find that the problem with a real social-type is similar to the problem with a very sneaky-type. Namely, that they Do Not Play Well With Others. If there's only one social virtuoso in the party and they manage to Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy their way past all the guards and patrols and whatever, the other party members aren't doing anything. If the DM decides that the social guy can only start the process and tries to involve the other players, then they're penalized for playing a class without social skills. If, as has been suggested, the social guy also isn't great at combat (which is by no means a given, but is a possibility), then that's another problem. Basically, they don't work WITH the party, they work NEXT TO the party, and that can be frustrating both for the social guy and for the other players.

Optimystik
2009-12-15, 01:40 PM
I forgot to mention: I was talking CORE.

Would a CORE +80 diplomacy skill check convince the Balor to give away his +1 vorpal longsword to charity?

Its quite difficult to beat a CORE Diplomacy DC 90.

My point is:
In CORE, Diplomacy is not too game breaking.

Do you agree?

Why would you do +90 to anything without epic levels to guide you?

Without ELH then no, diplomacy is not game-breaking. Though if you think that means CORE is not broken, you're in for a shock.

drevil
2009-12-15, 03:05 PM
As an example, I would set the Diplomacy DC 90 against a Balor.
Making Balor friendly would require DC 90.
Making a hostile farmer friendly would "only" require DC 50.


Zaq:
I dont see how the social diplomat/bluffmaker would create a conflict to other non-socials.
Adventuring groups are formed because of these differenses.
Some are the "face of the group", others are better on the "hack n' slash".

1. The bluffmaker will manage to bluff his way in to the Kings garden.
2. The King gets assaulted.
3. The wizard will have a escape mechanism for the group.
Perfect synergy!

I am really into this social stuff. Huge tactical potential.

Zovc
2009-12-15, 04:13 PM
Can you aid another on their bluff or diplomacy check?

I've definitely done that a number of times IRL.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 04:29 PM
Think about it.

The dwarven city Mygrir has declared a war against the drow city of Silversong.
Will the heroes (ECL 15) join the dwarven army in a dull unoriginal longlasting war?

-OR-

Will they DISGUISE (maxed out) themself as drows,
BLUFF/DIPLOMACY (maxed out) pass the Gates of Silversong,
BLUFF/DIPLOMACY through the Guards protecting the Drow King,
and then assasinate that bastard to demoralize the drows?

I think skills such as bluff, disguise, diplomacy and hide have a great tactical potential.

Do you agree?

Where can I find a list of different actions that can be done with a given skill?
There are many creative hide maneuvers other than those listet in PHB.

Join the army, accrue XPs & prestige, return as powerful heroes, rather than stay level 1 forever.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 04:33 PM
Though if you think that means CORE is not broken, you're in for a shock.

Help me out here Playground; what sort of logical fallacy is this? I see it used a lot here. Is it a non sequitor?

Optimystik
2009-12-15, 04:34 PM
Help me out here Playground; what sort of logical fallacy is this?

Ooh! Ooh! I know!

Seatbelt
2009-12-15, 04:44 PM
Help me out here Playground; what sort of logical fallacy is this? I see it used a lot here. Is it a non sequitor?

It means Time Stop, Righteous Might, Glitterdust, and the Druid.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 04:48 PM
It means Time Stop, Righteous Might, Glitterdust, and the Druid.

I find your lack of logic disturbing.

jiriku
2009-12-15, 04:57 PM
Would a CORE +80 diplomacy skill check convince the Balor to give away his +1 vorpal longsword to charity?
Its quite difficult to beat a CORE Diplomacy DC 90.
My point is:
In CORE, Diplomacy is not too game breaking.
Do you agree?

I would disagree. It requires a high-level character and considerable magic, to be sure. But it's not impossible to hit your DC 90 or even higher with CORE-only resources. Say, a level 17 cleric, w/Cha 34, 20 skill ranks in diplomacy, moment of prescience, a +30 competence Diplomacy skill item, and a +10 insight Diplomacy skill item, and a +10 luck Diplomacy skill item.

12 (Cha)
20 (skill ranks)
17 (spell)
50 (items)
01 (minimum d20 roll)
-----
100
-10 (rushed check)
----
90

Total cost in gear is probably about 150,000gp of dedicated Diplomacy-enhancing items. This is not cheap, but heck, I'd pay 150k to generate fanatic balors as a full-round action.

Optimystik
2009-12-15, 04:59 PM
@ Jiriku - his point wasn't that you couldn't hit the DC in CORE, but that the ELH/SRD epic-level effect (fanatic) would not then apply, as that effect is not listed in DMG/PHB/MM.

EDIT: Yes, I'm enjoying emphasizing CORE. Because silly stuff never happens in CORE!

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 05:02 PM
@ Jiriku - his point wasn't that you couldn't hit the DC in CORE, but that the ELH/SRD epic-level effect (fanatic) would not then apply, as that effect is not listed in DMG/PHB/MM.

EDIT: Yes, I'm enjoying emphasizing CORE. Because silly stuff never happens in CORE!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3257/2647265426_bab7d53972_b.jpg

Asgardian
2009-12-15, 05:22 PM
Going back to the OP, I find that the problem with a real social-type is similar to the problem with a very sneaky-type. Namely, that they Do Not Play Well With Others. If there's only one social virtuoso in the party and they manage to Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy their way past all the guards and patrols and whatever, the other party members aren't doing anything. If the DM decides that the social guy can only start the process and tries to involve the other players, then they're penalized for playing a class without social skills. If, as has been suggested, the social guy also isn't great at combat (which is by no means a given, but is a possibility), then that's another problem. Basically, they don't work WITH the party, they work NEXT TO the party, and that can be frustrating both for the social guy and for the other players.

A lot of that depends on your DM as there is nothing that says that the other players have to stand there and do ABSOLUTELY nothing while diplomacy is going on.

For instance, when our cleric is doing her diplomacy thing, the persons attention is slightly distracted by the cleric depending on the check. If its high enough, that frees us up to either help or make subtle skill checks of our own. Nothing major of course but subtle but useful things in line with our characters. Such as, looking pass the guard to see what sort of defenses are in the room, watching where the guard went to open/close the portcullis, sense motive, etc...

drevil
2009-12-16, 02:52 AM
20 skill ranks in diplomacy, moment of prescience, a +30 competence Diplomacy skill item, and a +10 insight Diplomacy skill item, and a +10 luck Diplomacy skill item.

12 (Cha)
20 (skill ranks)
17 (spell)
50 (items)
01 (minimum d20 roll)
-----
100
-10 (rushed check)
----
90

Total cost in gear is probably about 150,000gp of dedicated Diplomacy-enhancing items. This is not cheap, but heck, I'd pay 150k to generate fanatic balors as a full-round action.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#insightBonus
Multiple insigh bonuses does not stack. (Moment of Prescience)
Where in DMG can I find the following stuff?
+30 competence skill item
+10 insight skill item
+10 luck skill item

Even if you succeed the Diplomacy check, the Balor will "only" be Helpful.
He is not charmed (enslaved).

Yeah, my point is that CORE-diplomacy is not so powerful that it ruins the whole game.
Optimizing in Non-CORE is not funny at all. Ruins everything.