Is it just me...

[bladesyz]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

[Bibliomancer]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

Not necessarily self-righteous. He sounds like someone who's been putting up with self-righteousness for too long and has decided to retaliate with sarcasm and ridicule (quite effectively, it might be added). His tone also makes sense when you look at this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) comic, and realize that he is standing with Dorukan against Soon.

[Kish]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?
I don't know. Ask me again when we've seen more of him.

Right now, I can't actually tell whether I'd agree with the ideas he's declaring or not, because the fact that he's demonstrating such incredibly poor aim is too distracting.

I will, however, note that he's already qualified for "not nearly as smart as he thinks he is."

[bladesyz]

He assumes that anyone who speaks the keywords "Soon, Sapphire Guard" must be:

1) Soon, or a lackey of Soon's.

2) Is breaking the non-interference oath for frivolous/selfish reasons.

He also assumes that just because Soon is a paladin, and was the party leader, he must have been corrupted by power, when we have clearly seen that Soon was neither power-hungry nor interested in breaking his oath.

That seems pretty self-righteous to me.

[newcresty]

I don't really know why people have those much complains about Girard liyng the exact location of its gate, read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

"Girard Draketooth hid his desert... relying on the power of deception to protect the gate."

What better way to protect the gate, which is a major artifact and it should never be found, that lying on its location, and then casting ilussion at its near location, not only you don't know where it is, but also can't know for usre where to find it or even if you found it. Pretty much a perfect way of hiding something huh.

[bladesyz]

I don't really know why people have those much complains about Girard liyng the exact location of its gate, read this:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

"Girard Draketooth hid his desert... relying on the power of deception to protect the gate."

What better way to protect the gate, which is a major artifact and it should never be found, that lying on its location, and then casting ilussion at its near location, not only you don't know where it is, but also can't know for usre where to find it or even if you found it. Pretty much a perfect way of hiding something huh.

It's not that Girard hid his gate, it's that he claims to have deliberately misled his allies due to his own prejudices.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

He assumes that anyone who speaks the keywords "Soon, Sapphire Guard" must be:

1) Soon, or a lackey of Soon's.

2) Is breaking the non-interference oath for frivolous/selfish reasons.
With 90% probability. That means he recognizes a not-quite-trivial chance of being wrong. The occasional false-positive tends to happen when your spell relies on heuristic probability for proper functioning.


He also assumes that just because Soon is a paladin, and was the party leader, he must have been corrupted by power, when we have clearly seen that Soon was neither power-hungry nor interested in breaking his oath.
It's a generally well-accepted phenomenon that even those who don't start out power hungry tend to have nasty personality changes. The adage, “Power corrupts” would be meaningless if it only applied to those who were already corrupt.

Girard's strong belief in that adage only proves he’s a cynic. It doesn’t say anything about his humility or lack thereof.

[good_lookin_gus]

He assumes that anyone who speaks the keywords "Soon, Sapphire Guard" must be:

1) Soon, or a lackey of Soon's.



That was a very likely assumption, since the only people who knew about the Gates were members of the Saphire Guard.



2) Is breaking the non-interference oath for frivolous/selfish reasons.



Is breaking the non-interference oath


Is breaking the non-interference oath


Is breaking the non-interference oath

From what we've seen, Girad and Soon did not get along well. Girad is predisposed to consider Soon's actions as "selfish" and "frivolous", why would he view breaking the oath any differently?


He also assumes that just because Soon is a paladin, and was the party leader, he must have been corrupted by power, when we have clearly seen that Soon was neither power-hungry nor interested in breaking his oath.

That seems pretty self-righteous to me.

No, you just assumed that he just assumed that. No doubt, there is more to the story.

[Kish]

That was a very likely assumption, since the only people who knew about the Gates were members of the Saphire Guard.

Dorukan, Lirian, and Serini are members of the Sapphire Guard now?

Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.

[Roderick_BR]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?
I agree. He's too quick to put down someone that acts in a way he's not fond of.
Two wrongs don't make a right.

[SaintRidley]

It's not that Girard hid his gate, it's that he claims to have deliberately misled his allies due to his own prejudices.

Allies can have their brains picked over and their memories examined and the location discovered. Giving them the wrong coordinates prevents that from happening. Giving them the wrong coordinates makes it so a baddie who wants to find the gate can't get the information by going after known associates. Giving them the wrong coordinates better protects his gate.

[Bibliomancer]

No, you just assumed that he just assumed that. No doubt, there is more to the story.

Well, specifically, before the party broke up he knew that Soon had formed an Order of Paladins devoted exclusively to protecting the gate...and obeying their superiors without question.

As a person who favored stealth over force, this probably seemed to be a power-hungry and irrational move to Girard.


Dorukan, Lirian, and Serini are members of the Sapphire Guard now?

Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.

He probably gave the real coordinates to the other members of the party without telling them that he gave false coordinates to Soon.

[doliest]

Dorukan, Lirian, and Serini are members of the Sapphire Guard now?

Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.
All of the gates we've actually seen with the possible exception of Lirian's have been built with some assumption in mind. Dorukon built a self-destruct ruin on his; Soon told an entire guild of paladins about the gates, if not more, with the assumption that not a one of them would turn out to be crazy or become a blackguard at some point.

[good_lookin_gus]

Dorukan, Lirian, and Serini are members of the Sapphire Guard now?

Whoops:smallredface: No, but they seemed to have a significantly less proactive philosophy on how to protect the Gates.


Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.

You'll get no argument from me. I just felt the condemnation was a little too harsh.

[Zevox]

Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.
No he based it on divination magic, which gave him a 90% probability of that scenario. That's not an assumption, that's an incredibly safe, well-informed bet.

Zevox

[Querzis]

Dorukan, Lirian, and Serini are members of the Sapphire Guard now?

He either gave different coordinates to the rest of the Order or, more likely, since two of the keywords were directly soncerning Soon, the illusion just give a different message when the keywords are different. I doubt Durokan, Lirian or Serini would talk about the saphire guards if they would investigate Girard gate.

Anyway, no hes not being self-righteous at all, might wanna check what the word means. He is being a sarcastic bastard though but since Durokan and Girard were about to fight Soon to the death after Kraagor death, none of this is surprising. I really doubt Soon would be better if he saw one of the other two or if Durokan saw Soon. They just really hated each others.

And really, people have to realize that this is definitly the best way to protect his gate. Girard doesnt just use magic tricks and illusion but also normal one. If Serini also had the wrong coordinates, then I think its very likely that Xykon will actually get within 1000 foots of Girard gate by accident and will never actually find the gate.

[tyckspoon]

He probably gave the real coordinates to the other members of the party without telling them that he gave false coordinates to Soon.

He could also give those coordinates to the rest of the party and then encode a different message for them. For example, if Roy had been talking about Dorukan and his gate instead of Soon and the Sapphire Guard, he may have gotten a much more useful recording, perhaps one that would direct him to the actual area of Girard's Gate.

Edit: stupid orcish fullplate ninja! I bet you forgot to include your armor check penalty, didn't you!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Regardless. He based his message on an incorrect assumption. Debating how good an assumption it was jumps over what I would consider the much more important issue: He shouldn't have based it on an assumption at all.
Question:

You want to leave a message for a particular person. But there is a chance that particular person won’t be around to collect it in person, but an agent acting on behalf of that person might be. Now, this potential agent has not been determined ahead of time, so you can't leave your message in a manner that references a specific individual. Now, say your message system cannot actively seek information, such as by asking questions. Even if it could, you cannot be sure of an honest answer.

Given the above, how would you guarantee with 100% probability that only your target or his or her agent receives the message?

[salinan]

2) Is breaking the non-interference oath for frivolous/selfish reasons.
You know, this part bothers me as well.

Whether Girard likes Soon or not, you'd have to assume he knows him pretty well. So it seems likely that he would be aware that if there is one thing that paladins do, it's take oaths extremely seriously (often beyond the boundaries of common sense.) So why would he assume that Soon would break such an oath for something trivial?

[llamamushroom]

[...] how would you guarantee with 100% probability that only your target or his or her agent receives the message?

Magic?

Anyway, I'm with the "best way to defend gate" camp - so long as the gate is defended, it doesn't matter how much of an arse Girard is. Seeing as, as far as we know, no-one knows where the gate actually is anymore, I'd say it's pretty well defended.

Also, maybe the "gate's not here, bi-atch!" thing is a lie, as well? Trust a paladin to take it at face value, while expecting any of his other allies to be clever enough to work it out (he doesn't seem to have a high opinion of paladins from the start).

[Vemynal]

No he based it on divination magic, which gave him a 90% probability of that scenario. That's not an assumption, that's an incredibly safe, well-informed bet.

Zevox

sorry i obviously missed something, where does it state that he used divination magic to foresee that soon would become power crazed?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So why would he assume that Soon would break such an oath for something trivial?
According to his message, Girard believes that power corrupts and that the power granted to Soon by having a mass of paladins at his beck and call will likely push Soon in that direction. It’s also clear from Girard’s attitude that he thinks all the talk about oaths and honor is just lip service. He clearly hasn’t seen a paladin stick to an oath in a manner that could not be interpreted as self-serving in one way or another.


Magic?
Magic has limits. Name me one spell that offers the precedent of recognizing a person without the caster possessing some knowledge of that person, or some item connected to that person at the time of casting.

Even then, you only need a sufficiently high-level magic of your own to fool the recognition spell. So there’s still a chance for false positives. And every step you take to reduce the frequency of false positives also increases the frequency of false negatives. Eventually you have to take some piece of middle ground.

[llamamushroom]

According to his message, Girard believes that power corrupts and that the power granted to Soon by having a mass of paladins at his beck and call will likely push Soon in that direction. It’s also clear from Girard’s attitude that he thinks all the talk about oaths and honor is just lip service. He clearly hasn’t seen a paladin stick to an oath in a manner that could not be interpreted as self-serving in one way or another.

Or it could be that he thinks Soon is, underneath all of his belief in oaths and honour, a control freak who thinks that only he can properly defend the gates. He explicitly states something to that effect, so maybe Girard expects Soon to overreact to, say, his own gate's destruction by trying to defend all the other gates.

And, at part two of the above (sorry, I am unversed in forum mechanics), I was joking.

[Zevox]

sorry i obviously missed something, where does it state that he used divination magic to foresee that soon would become power crazed?
He didn't forsee Soon becoming power crazed. He says in the first pannel that "heuristic" magic gave a 90% chance that someone at that location speaking the command words ("gate," "Girard," "Soon," and "Sapphire Guard") would be either Soon or a Sapphire Guard Paladin. "Heuristic," according to dictionary.com, means (bolded to indicate the one I'm looking at):

–adjective
1. serving to indicate or point out; stimulating interest as a means of furthering investigation.
2. encouraging a person to learn, discover, understand, or solve problems on his or her own, as by experimenting, evaluating possible answers or solutions, or by trial and error: a heuristic teaching method.
3. of, pertaining to, or based on experimentation, evaluation, or trial-and-error methods.
4. Computers, Mathematics. pertaining to a trial-and-error method of problem solving used when an algorithmic approach is impractical.

Seems to me like a large-vocabulary way of saying "divination." How else would that statement in the first panel make any sense?

Zevox

[salinan]

the power granted to Soon by having a mass of paladins at his beck and call
Seems to me that having a bunch of paladins under your command, watching your every move, would make you more likely to keep an oath. C.f. Shojo, who was most definitely not a paladin, and the care he took to not break the oath lest he irritate the paladins...

[Shhalahr Windrider]

–adjective
1. serving to indicate or point out; stimulating interest as a means of furthering investigation.
2. encouraging a person to learn, discover, understand, or solve problems on his or her own, as by experimenting, evaluating possible answers or solutions, or by trial and error: a heuristic teaching method.
3. of, pertaining to, or based on experimentation, evaluation, or trial-and-error methods.
4. Computers, Mathematics. pertaining to a trial-and-error method of problem solving used when an algorithmic approach is impractical.

Seems to me like a large-vocabulary way of saying "divination." How else would that statement in the first panel make any sense?
Given that he’s referencing probability, I'd say we’re looking at definitions three and four. The whole spell is really little more than a fancy magic mouth (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsMtoO.html), which is pure illusion. Divination is finding out things that are not detectable through normal senses. This spell simply listened (as per normal sense of hearing) and calculated a probability based on what it heard. Once it calculated a sufficiently high probability, it triggered the message. No extra-sensory ability required.


Seems to me that having a bunch of paladins under your command, watching your every move, would make you more likely to keep an oath. C.f. Shojo, who was most definitely not a paladin, and the care he took to not break the oath lest he irritate the paladins...
Paladins respect legitimate authority. They won’t be watching your every move unless you give them reason to. That’s how Shojo got away with what he did. He wasn’t being watched carefully, but he was taking care to avoid giving the Guard reason to do so. In the end, it was pure happenstance that Hinjo and Miko found Shojo out.

[Zevox]

Given that he’s referencing probability, I'd say we’re looking at definitions three and four. The whole spell is really little more than a fancy magic mouth (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/spellsMtoO.html), which is pure illusion. Divination is finding out things that are not detectable through normal senses. This spell simply listened (as per normal sense of hearing) and calculated a probability based on what it heard. Once it calculated a sufficiently high probability, it triggered the message. No extra-sensory ability required.
Ah, I see, so the magic he was referring to was the message spell itself, not something he used before recording the message, which was what I had figured. Makes sense. In any event, that too makes his message not an assumption, but based on magic determining a high probability that its intended recipients were the ones present.

Zevox

[Conuly]

Whether Girard likes Soon or not, you'd have to assume he knows him pretty well. So it seems likely that he would be aware that if there is one thing that paladins do, it's take oaths extremely seriously (often beyond the boundaries of common sense.) So why would he assume that Soon would break such an oath for something trivial?

Maybe because he knows Soon better than we do and thinks that other concerns (gaining power, avenging his dead wife) will eventually take priority. Maybe there *are* reasons paladins will break oaths, and he thinks that Soon would have one day used a seemingly good reason as an excuse to do that... an excuse that, perhaps, even Soon didn't realize was an excuse.

I mean, we don't actually know Soon anymore than we actually know Girard.

Or maybe he made this in the heat of anger and never bothered to update once he calmed down.

[Querzis]

Seems to me that having a bunch of paladins under your command, watching your every move, would make you more likely to keep an oath. C.f. Shojo, who was most definitely not a paladin, and the care he took to not break the oath lest he irritate the paladins...

Quite the opposite, Shojo could have never gotten away with everything he did if his underlings were not paladins. They never suspected a thing until Shojo said aloud all his plan to Roy...which was really stupid and as far as I'm concerned the worse part of the comic. Its not like its hard to make sure nobody can hear you and both Shojo and Roy were supposed to be much smarter then that, it was done only because it was necessary for the plot.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Quite the opposite, Shojo could have never gotten away with everything he did if his underlings were not paladins. They never suspected a thing until Shojo said aloud all his plan to Roy...which was really stupid and as far as I'm concerned the worse part of the comic. Its not like its hard to make sure nobody can hear you and both Shojo and Roy were supposed to be much smarter then that, it was done only because it was necessary for the plot.
Even smart people make the occasional exceedingly stupid mistake. The frequency of such does tend to rise with irritation with other people in the room. :smalltongue:

Really, it only reflects poorly on the comic if an allegedly intelligent and wise person is constantly making exceedingly stupid mistakes.

[salinan]

Paladins respect legitimate authority. They won’t be watching your every move unless you give them reason to. That’s how Shojo got away with what he did. He wasn’t being watched carefully, but he was taking care to avoid giving the Guard reason to do so. In the end, it was pure happenstance that Hinjo and Miko found Shojo out.
So, you're saying that Shojo got away with it by acting in a chaotic manner. Something tells me Soon wouldn't be capable of that. :smallwink:

[Alex Warlorn]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

Yes yes yes and YES!

[Shhalahr Windrider]

So, you're saying that Shojo got away with it by acting in a chaotic manner.
No, I'm saying he got away with it because no one was watching him. Law and Chaos have nothing to do with it.

[Torquinette]

I feel that the smartest thing to do to prevent one from finding the gate is simply not reveal it isnt there.

Then again, Girard seems like the kind of guy to gloat. Maybe it *is* there?

[salinan]

No, I'm saying he got away with it because no one was watching him. Law and Chaos have nothing to do with it.
No-one was watching him because they expected that he would behave in a lawful manner by respecting the oath - paladins tend to have that expectation.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

No-one was watching him because they expected that he would behave in a lawful manner by respecting the oath - paladins tend to have that expectation.
Which is exactly what I've been saying. Paladin’s don’t watch the guys in charge so long as the guys in charge appear to behave.

[salinan]

Which is exactly what I've been saying. Paladin’s don’t watch the guys in charge so long as the guys in charge appear to behave.
You're missing the point I was making.

Soon is/was a lawful character. He wouldn't go behind the paladins' backs because to do so would be a breach of character (chaotic action.) If he felt there was pressing need to break the oath (and it would have to be pressing, because, you know, paladin and lawful) he would be up front about it.

[Alex Warlorn]

I feel that the smartest thing to do to prevent one from finding the gate is simply not reveal it isnt there.

Then again, Girard seems like the kind of guy to gloat. Maybe it *is* there?

Draketooth left that message there because he misjudged Soon's character (he never did break the very oath that everyone was calling Soon stupid for NOT breaking), and because he was petty enough that it wasn't enough he leave whoever went after the Gates on a wild goose chase, he CLEARLY believed it was nearly inevitable for a Paladin to turn out like Miko and ONLY like Miko, and he wanted to rub it in Soon's face by proxy after his low blow that triggered this whole mess to begin with (though it would have been a BIGGER mess if not for a certain halfling).

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Soon is/was a lawful character. He wouldn't go behind the paladins' backs because to do so would be a breach of character (chaotic action.)
A character who has been corrupted by power has changed their character by definition.

Additionally, a paladin is not forbidden from taking chaotic actions. Chaotic actions are only a problem if:
They occur with sufficient frequency that the paladin’s alignment shifts from Lawful. OR:
The chaotic act is also considered dishonorable as per the paladin code.

Of course, the point really matters is that Girard wouldn't consider such behavior to be a breach of Soon’s (or any other paladin’s) character. Whether or not any of this in actuality would be against Soon’s personality is immaterial. All that matters is that Girard believes otherwise.

[salinan]

Whether or not any of this in actuality would be against Soon’s personality is immaterial. All that matters is that Girard believes otherwise.
I can't argue with that, but the question of why Girard might believe otherwise is the reason I raised the question in the first place. Circular argument, anyone? :smallsmile:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I can't argue with that, but the question of why Girard might believe otherwise is the reason I raised the question in the first place. Circular argument, anyone? :smallsmile:
:tongue:

Really, Girard’s just a major cynic. That is all. He doesn’t believe anyone could be in Soon’s position and not become a self-serving tyrant. It’s as simple as that.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

Yes, I think you've pretty much summed it up. :smallamused:

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Draketooth left that message there because he misjudged Soon's character (he never did break the very oath that everyone was calling Soon stupid for NOT breaking), and because he was petty enough that it wasn't enough he leave whoever went after the Gates on a wild goose chase, he CLEARLY believed it was nearly inevitable for a Paladin to turn out like Miko and ONLY like Miko, and he wanted to rub it in Soon's face by proxy after his low blow that triggered this whole mess to begin with (though it would have been a BIGGER mess if not for a certain halfling).

Yeah, that's pretty much how I'm reading it, too. He's definitely coming across as abrasive and obnoxious even in the Crayons of Time, up to his 'low blow' against Soon, and at the moment, he's also coming across as petty, vindictive, and unwise.

And he's a REALLY lousy judge of character. Seems like Soon's lawfulness just ticked him off so much that can't think rationally about the guy, and may have made a colossal blunder because of that.

Interesting to see how this will play out. I'm still hoping that Xykon roasts him alive and the Order ends up saving the Gate instead, basically by accident. :smallbiggrin:

[bladesyz]

:tongue:

Really, Girard’s just a major cynic. That is all. He doesn’t believe anyone could be in Soon’s position and not become a self-serving tyrant. It’s as simple as that.

Funny how when a paladin makes judgments based on his/her prejudices, we can all agree it's self-righteousness. When a chaotic "rebel" figure does that, it becomes cynicism?

[Zxo]

Yeah, that's pretty much how I'm reading it, too. He's definitely coming across as abrasive and obnoxious even in the Crayons of Time, up to his 'low blow' against Soon, and at the moment, he's also coming across as petty, vindictive, and unwise.



Yes, and it's strange that the whole Order of the Scribble apparently assumed that everybody will defend their gate successfully and live happily ever after. They should've made plans for when one of the gates would be destroyed or taken over and the obvious solution for a guardian of such gate, if he or she survived, was to go to the nearest gate or the one that would be in danger next and offer help defending it. No matter how awful Soon was, the most likely cause of him or his paladins appearing at Girard's Gate was that he wasn't able to defend his own gate anymore. It wasn't hard to figure out that some evil guy will try to conquer the gates someday and the Order shouldn't risk the universe for the sake of their dislike of each other.

So it's not only Girard that looks bad here, it's all of the Order of the Scribble. (Unless in the next strip Girard says: I was just joking, I know that if you're here, something bad has happened...)

[Teddy]

Yes, and it's strange that the whole Order of the Scribble apparently assumed that everybody will defend their gate successfully and live happily ever after. They should've made plans for when one of the gates would be destroyed or taken over and the obvious solution for a guardian of such gate, if he or she survived, was to go to the nearest gate or the one that would be in danger next and offer help defending it. No matter how awful Soon was, the most likely cause of him or his paladins appearing at Girard's Gate was that he wasn't able to defend his own gate anymore. It wasn't hard to figure out that some evil guy will try to conquer the gates someday and the Order shouldn't risk the universe for the sake of their dislike of each other.

So it's not only Girard that looks bad here, it's all of the Order of the Scribble. (Unless in the next strip Girard says: I was just joking, I know that if you're here, something bad has happened...)

Actually, a part of the agreement was to set up a monitoring system to alarm if one gate is broken, so if Serini and Girard are alive, they should know about the other gates' destruction.

[ComradeMolokov]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

It's not just you. He sounds pretty much convinced that he is morally superior on account of being chaotic rather than lawful. And if he's telling the truth he would be a massive hypocrite to boot, as that would me that he had taken greater power than his fellow members of the order by ensuring that only he knew the real locations of all the gates. All of this after saying that people with power cannot be trusted, because it will corrupt them regardless of their intentions.

Sounds to me like it already has.

[adrejer]

Funny how when a paladin makes judgments based on his/her prejudices, we can all agree it's self-righteousness. When a chaotic "rebel" figure does that, it becomes cynicism?

The reason why people are interpreting Girards judgement to be a result cynicism instead of one of self-righteousness is that Girard is not saying I am morally superior to you he is saying there is no such thing as honor (which is cynicism in the same way as if he had denied the existence of love or good).

And of cause he (posibly) shows himself as a hypocrite by (posibly) being the only one to know all the gate locations (there is however still the posibility that he only lied to Soon because of his dislike of the man).

[hamishspence]

Soon's comment about magic being inferior to "the honor of a paladin" got a pretty snarky response "that and a silver piece will get you a hunk of cheese" but it does not entirely surprise me that the party magic-users would react that way.

Most of the magic-users in the Stickverse we've seen have gotten very touchy about comments on it. Eugene. V. Dorukan.

[Adeptus]

I don't know. Ask me again when we've seen more of
I will, however, note that he's already qualified for "not nearly as smart as he thinks he is."
Indeed :amused:

[Mugen Nightgale]

I don't trust him enough to believe he is telling the truth.
We've been warned that Girard was an Illusionist that trusts in the power of deception. This first message of him was just simple and stupid. Too obvious for a guy who brags about being smart. Sure It tricked the lawful part of the party and it sure would have tricked Soon's Paladin. They'd be blinded by the offense and probably leave. But if you take a closer look at Haley's reaction in the 7th panel. She doesn't look angry to me. More like annoyed.

[Big Hungry Joe]

Girard does seem a sort of flip side of the coin of Miko, in the sense that he may well let his preconceptions of the OoTS prejudice all his interactions with them, just from a different angle. Just as Miko's various assumptions about the OoTS being secretly evil (and working for Xykon) led her down a crazy road, Girard may well assume that the OoTS is just a pack of Soon's lawful good lackeys in disguise and continue to abuse them accordingly. He obvious hasn't kept in touch with Soon or any of the paladin order over the years, so his grasp of current events is presumably nil. I'm not sure what we can speculate as to Girard's alignment, but from his rant about authority figures this could be the Chaotic version of Miko's loopy Lawful nature.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

So it's not only Girard that looks bad here, it's all of the Order of the Scribble. (Unless in the next strip Girard says: I was just joking, I know that if you're here, something bad has happened...)

Actually, it's Girard, and only Girard. After all, he's the one who broke the agreement -- where a monitoring divination is set up to tell the others if the gate is broken --

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

-- which is kind of hard to do if you're scrying on the wrong place thanks to Girard's lies, true? :smallbiggrin:

Setting himself up as better than the others -- really makes him look like even more of a hypocrite than he did at first glance.

[factotum]

But if you take a closer look at Haley's reaction in the 7th panel. She doesn't look angry to me. More like annoyed.

Which means precisely nothing. She's going to be just as annoyed if she thinks they've been led on a wild goose chase as she would if she believes Girard is lying and the others are getting taken in. Also bear in mind that the entire Order have been searching this square mile of sand for days, if the montage in #693 is anything to go by; you don't imagine the knowledge they've been wasting their time would rankle a bit?

[hamishspence]

Actually, it's Girard, and only Girard. After all, he's the one who broke the agreement -- where a monitoring divination is set up to tell the others if the gate is broken --

-- which is kind of hard to do if you're scrying on the wrong place thanks to Girard's lies, true? :smallbiggrin:

Setting himself up as better than the others -- really makes him look like even more of a hypocrite than he did at first glance.

We don't know his monitoring divination would have given a wrong answer- or how they work.

It could be attached to each gate and set to trigger if Gate is destroyed.

Note that Dorukan's gate was protected by a massive anti-divination spell- making it impossible to see the Gate itself while he was there and casting it.

Yet when the Gate was destroyed, Shojo still got an immediate message- possibly because the message goes through even if Cloister is active, possibly because after 6 months, Cloister had expired.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'm still hoping that Xykon roasts him alive and the Order ends up saving the Gate instead, basically by accident. :smallbiggrin:

Huzzah!

Perhaps I'm just irritated after playing too much Dragon Age but I hope he gets his comeuppance.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Girard does seem a sort of flip side of the coin of Miko, in the sense that he may well let his preconceptions of the OoTS prejudice all his interactions with them, just from a different angle. [....] I'm not sure what we can speculate as to Girard's alignment, but from his rant about authority figures this could be the Chaotic version of Miko's loopy Lawful nature.

Yep, so we've seen an example of a Lawful Stupid character. Now, we get to see Chaotic Stupid. :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

For some people, Chaotic Stupid was Elan at his worst.

Girard's paranoia about Soon's corruptiblity may be less Chaotic Stupid, and more simply a case of personal distrust.

[MReav]

Yep, so we've seen an example of a Lawful Stupid character. Now, we get to see Chaotic Stupid. :smallbiggrin:

No, Chaotic Stupid is entirely stupid. Perhaps Girard is just the Giant showing that Chaotic people can be just as pompous, self-righteous *******s as the Lawful ones.

[Optimystik]

I will, however, note that he's already qualified for "not nearly as smart as he thinks he is."

Sadly, this. And the world may yet suffer for it.


Given the above, how would you guarantee with 100% probability that only your target or his or her agent receives the message?

Easy. You don't. But delivering his onanistic tirade was apparently a higher priority for him than ensuring the planet's protection, even if it meant stymieing "Soon's lackeys."


Yep, so we've seen an example of a Lawful Stupid character. Now, we get to see Chaotic Stupid. :smallbiggrin:

Chaotic Stupid demonstrated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html)

[hamishspence]

The starting tirade does not rule out there being some way of identifying the motives of the visitor as not being to control the gate, but being someone wanting to stop people like Xykon or Redcloak (or any villain) seizing it.

The 90% chance does raise the possibility of more messages for those that fit the 10% "Not Soon or his lackeys/Not out to seize the gate" chance.

[Random832]

Chaotic Stupid demonstrated. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0157.html)

That's chaotic evil stupid. Here we have chaotic good stupid.

[hamishspence]

Or here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html

Though it is possible that Girard's attitude may qualify, I'm not certain yet.

[Optimystik]

That's chaotic evil stupid. Here we have chaotic good stupid.

It was pure Chaotic Stupid. There was no morality issue there, merely a refusal to obey orders that made sense.

I do agree that Girard was also Chaotic Stupid, for the same reason - stymieing a partner even when it may help him achieve his own goals, purely to be contrary.

[hamishspence]

Going by what the illusion is saying, the intention is to prevent beings from controlling the gate- not just to be contrary.

"trusted with the power of the Snarl"

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Funny how when a paladin makes judgments based on his/her prejudices, we can all agree it's self-righteousness. When a chaotic "rebel" figure does that, it becomes cynicism?
A Cynic believes everyone is a bastard at heart. No exceptions.

A Self-Righteous being believes that everyone is a bastard at heart, except for him or herself.

Girard doesn’t appear to be making any exceptions with his Power Corrupts attitude. That makes him a Cynic.

Soon claimed that only the honor of a paladin was unbreakable. In other words, no one else has honor worth a damn. That makes him Self-Righteous.


Easy. You don't. But delivering his onanistic tirade was apparently a higher priority for him than ensuring the planet's protection, even if it meant stymieing "Soon's lackeys."
Exactly. He felt the message needed to be delivered. So he had to balance the possibility of an inevitable false positive with that of a false negative, and decided that a 10% false positive rate was acceptable.

[hamishspence]

To avoid the issue of hypocrisy- would he have arranged for his own memory of the Gate's location to be wiped?

Its not clear whether he considers his "power corrupts" speech to apply to himself or not- if so, one might expect him to ensure he cannot access that power.

[Querzis]

Its not clear whether he considers his "power corrupts" speech to apply to himself or not- if so, one might expect him to ensure he cannot access that power.

He wasnt talking about the power of the gate. Hell, the gate is useless if you're alone anyway, it really doesnt give any power all by itself. Hes talking about the power of being the leader of a paladin order. Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, it seems obvious that this message come a lot more from his personnal dislike of Soon then anything else really.

[Setra]

Girard doesn’t appear to be making any exceptions with his Power Corrupts attitude. That makes him a Cynic.

Soon claimed that only the honor of a paladin was unbreakable. In other words, no one else has honor worth a damn. That makes him Self-Righteous.
If you use only an enraged outburst to judge Soon Kim, then yes he would be self-righteous. However from what we've seen of him (or at least his ghost) he doesn't seem to be as such.

Whereas Girard, what we've seen of him so far could be considered self-righteous. His belief may apply to everyone, but he also believes that he is above Soon Kim who believes in Honor.

[Optimystik]

Going by what the illusion is saying, the intention is to prevent beings from controlling the gate- not just to be contrary.

"trusted with the power of the Snarl"

Keeping the gate from being controlled is not his ultimate goal, merely a means. The ultimate goal is protecting the rifts themselves. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) Whether they are controlled by outside sources, or simply deteriorate to the point that the gods have to reset World 2 - both are undesirable outcomes. If preventing both means acceding to someone he does not like, he should be prepared to do that.

Losing sight of the ultimate goal due to pettiness - I don't consider that smart.

[hamishspence]

His issue may have to do with authority figures, rather than "honor" per se.

This is what he says just before "give a man enough power and he will abuse it"

Power over people, to give them orders, in short.

Combine that with his reference to "thugs" and it makes me wonder if he knows about some of the events in SoD, and the "crusade to wipe out all knowledge of the gates" and this is why he made that message.

[Optimystik]

Combine that with his reference to "thugs" and it makes me wonder if he knows about some of the events in SoD, and the "crusade to wipe out all knowledge of the gates" and this is why he made that message.

Wow. Now THAT'S a possibility I have not thought of.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but his hostility towards Soon takes on a whole new light if he knew about the "crusades" - and he very well might.

[hamishspence]

It does raise the question of why he gave Soon those co-ordinates.

Unless... he's bluffing, and he only composed that message after finding out about certain of Soon's activities after founding that paladin order.

[Optimystik]

It does raise the question of why he gave Soon those co-ordinates.

Unless... he's bluffing, and he only composed that message after finding out about certain of Soon's activities after founding that paladin order.

We don't know exactly when the coordinates were given, either. The crusades could have already been underway.

"No two have laid eyes on each other since" - but you don't need to lay eyes on someone to tell them where your gate is.

[hamishspence]

It's definitely worth thinking about.

[truemane]

This is mildly off-side to the power corrupts conversation (which I fully expect to devolve into a flame war about the existence / non-existence of absolute morality, as all such conversations on the internet must), but while we're at least skirting the topic of Girard not being as smart as he thinks he is...

The comment about the glorified petting zoo is definitely the comment of a man too clever by half (as my grandmother used to say). In a world where the Divine has a salient and scientifically verifiable presence, worshiping them (or doing whatever they want you to do with them) isn't only logical, it's perfectly good sense.

Worship gods, get some spells. It works every time, given 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. There's nothing the least bit illogical about it. Demeaning? Undignified? Humiliating? Stupid? As much as all of these things are subjective value judgments, you could make the argument for any of them.

But illogical? No.

[TheSummoner]

*sigh*

Its pretty simple really...

If Girard ONLY decieved Soon then he is a petty bastard who would let a grudge get in the way of protecting the world. Telling his other allies the true location of his gate would undermine the entire arguement that hiding the gate is the best way to protect it

However, if Girard decieved everyone... if he had given all of his allies false coordinates, then he has arranged perhaps the most effective gate defense possible. If no one can find the damn thing then its no longer a threat. He may hold a grudge against Soon, and he may delight in preparing a giant middle finger should Soon ever seek out the gate, but that hasn't stopped him from defending his gate. He merely set up something that would spit in the face of someone he hated IF that person broke the non-interference oath.

If Girard hadn't told anyone the true location of the gate, that means there is no record of it. No one knows where it is. Not the Order, not Xykon. No one. Anyone searching for it would have to turn over every grain of sand in the desert and still might not find it depending on how well Girard used his illusions. Xykon being within 1000 feet could be purely by accident... he might walk right over the thing and never find it...

Now... theres no way that would happen. "Xykon spends the rest of eternity wandering a wasteland trying to find the gate" does not make for a good story. They're either going to end up heading for Krangor's gate, or more likely, something will tip Team Evil off. Maybe Girard was a petty bastard and only misled Soon... Maybe Serini figured out the location despite Girard lieing to her... Maybe the Order IS able to find the gate because Girard CLEARLY hasn't finished his message and might have something to say in the remaining 10% chance that they aren't associated with Soon that could tip them off and Xykon finds the gate by scrying them... Its too early to tell what will happen, and its too early to declare that Girard did what he did purely out of spite.

[hamishspence]

The comment about the glorified petting zoo is definitely the comment of a man too clever by half (as my grandmother used to say).

Or, a comment from someone who knows what the gods in OoTS are like.

We've seen his snark toward them- would he be equally snarky toward the various other OoTS deities if they came up in conversation?

[factotum]

Girard doesn’t appear to be making any exceptions with his Power Corrupts attitude. That makes him a Cynic.


Well, except he IS making an obvious exception--he's excepting himself. He's an epic level illusionist/ranger, which is plenty enough power to corrupt anyone, yet apparently it's perfectly safe to leave the secret of the Gate's location in his own capable hands...

[hamishspence]

Note that it's authority figures he begins the speech with- it may be power to order others around, rather than personal power specifically, that he considers potentially corrupting.

[Kish]

Exactly. He felt the message needed to be delivered. So he had to balance the possibility of an inevitable false positive with that of a false negative, and decided that a 10% false positive rate was acceptable.
He considered sniping at Soon an imperative great enough to override the possibility that his Gate was actually in danger. You're doing an excellent job of making bladesyz's case.

*sigh*

Its pretty simple really...

If Girard ONLY decieved Soon then he is a petty bastard who would let a grudge get in the way of protecting the world. Telling his other allies the true location of his gate would undermine the entire arguement that hiding the gate is the best way to protect it

However, if Girard decieved everyone... if he had given all of his allies false coordinates, then he has arranged perhaps the most effective gate defense possible.

What did I say the last time someone made this assertion? Let me see...

I'm scratching my head at the implication that you think Girard 1) can defeat or evade Xykon and Redcloak alone, and 2) was entirely correct in assuming that nothing would ever threaten his Gate which he couldn't handle alone. The rifts were threatened by villains ranging from Baron Pineapple to the Holey Brotherhood before the gates were ever built; now, because there are gates, we're supposed to have a reaction other than "you blithering idiot" to Girard assuming that no one would find his Gate if he didn't tell them where it was?

Also, if the illusion of Girard now disappears without continuing to speak, I hope you remember bolding CLEARLY.

[Optimystik]

*sigh*

Its pretty simple really...

If Girard ONLY decieved Soon then he is a petty bastard who would let a grudge get in the way of protecting the world. Telling his other allies the true location of his gate would undermine the entire arguement that hiding the gate is the best way to protect it

However, if Girard decieved everyone... if he had given all of his allies false coordinates, then he has arranged perhaps the most effective gate defense possible. If no one can find the damn thing then its no longer a threat.

Not necessarily. What if the gates need maintenance of some kind? What if his protective spells fail? (Spells can fail in OotS - that's how Roy was conceived after all.) What if someone good needs to see an existing gate to know how to repair the others, or make more? Simply stashing it away with no hope whatsoever of anyone being able to check on could be just as irresponsible as it is savvy.

I'm not saying you're completely incorrect, just that there is more than one consideration here.

[TheSummoner]

What did I say the last time someone made this assertion? Let me see...

I'm scratching my head at the implication that you think Girard 1) can defeat or evade Xykon and Redcloak alone, and 2) was entirely correct in assuming that nothing would ever threaten his Gate which he couldn't handle alone. The rifts were threatened by villains ranging from Baron Pineapple to the Holey Brotherhood before the gates were ever built; now, because there are gates, we're supposed to have a reaction other than "you blithering idiot" to Girard assuming that no one would find his Gate if he didn't tell them where it was?

Yes, the rifts were threatened by Baron Pineapple and the Holey Brotherhood before they had any defenses in place and before Soon's paladins had destroyed any record of them that they could get their hands on. Its pretty strongly implied that Serini's diary is the only written record of the gates and that very few people know of their existance.

Xykon knows that Girard's gate is somewhere in a vast, featureless wasteland. If he isn't able to pinpoint the location, he would have to cover every inch of the desert, trying to dispel or see through illusions that are likely not even in the specific place hes looking at the time. Now... Xykon and Redcloak aren't able to die from old age... so in theory they could pull it off. Thats the biggest problem with Girard's defenses... That someone with a limitless lifespan could know about the gate and find it purely by spending obscene amounts of time looking for it... But does anyone really think thats going to happen? Like I said, it wouldn't be a very good story.


Also, if the illusion of Girard now disappears without continuing to speak, I hope you remember bolding CLEARLY.

Should that happen, I will remember it with great shame.

[B. Dandelion]

Well, except he IS making an obvious exception--he's excepting himself. He's an epic level illusionist/ranger, which is plenty enough power to corrupt anyone, yet apparently it's perfectly safe to leave the secret of the Gate's location in his own capable hands...

His Gate, but not ALL the Gates, at least from what we know so far. He's mistrusting of Soon on the basis that the paladin would eventually feel he had to control the other Gates in addition to his own.


The rifts were threatened by villains ranging from Baron Pineapple to the Holey Brotherhood

A range from dumb to dumber?


before the gates were ever built; now, because there are gates, we're supposed to have a reaction other than "you blithering idiot" to Girard assuming that no one would find his Gate if he didn't tell them where it was?

Well, maybe. The rifts were unguarded but conspicuous to those who ran across them. Turning them into Gates warded off by illusions may indeed have reduced the conspicuous aspect.

[MReav]

A range from dumb to dumber?

There was also the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (which we see getting killed by the Order of the Scribble in SoD)

[Shale]

There was also the first Bearer of the Crimson Mantle (which we see getting killed by the Order of the Scribble in SoD)

Doesn't that mean the Order had already fought an immortal villain with plans for the Snarl, and knew he had a successor out there?

[MReav]

Doesn't that mean the Order had already fought an immortal villain with plans for the Snarl, and knew he had a successor out there?

Not necessarily. The Bearer of the Crimson Mantle hadn't yet been established as a dynasty nor had his extended lifespan been known (they may not know the extended lifespan now).

And the Crimson Mantle seems to have an ability to avoid notice when it is not being worn.

After killing the Bearer before Redcloak, the paladins stand there over his corpse, and don't bother trying to secure it. The Order of the Scribble also didn't seem to secure it.

[rewinn]

Even smart people make the occasional exceedingly stupid mistake. The frequency of such does tend to rise with irritation with other people in the room. :smalltongue:

Really, it only reflects poorly on the comic if an allegedly intelligent and wise person is constantly making exceedingly stupid mistakes.

Yep, and contrariwise: a person who is so intelligent and wise that they NEVER make a stupid mistake tends not to be an interesting character. Even Sherlock Holmes screwed up and when he did, the result was his best story ("A Scandal in Bohemia").

It's worth noting that Soon's war of genocide against the goblins just on the off chance that they might threaten the gates lead pretty directly to Xykon & Redcloak's search for the gates. Gerard may not be a sweetiepie but he's not wrong either.

[Optimystik]

Well, maybe. The rifts were unguarded but conspicuous to those who ran across them. Turning them into Gates warded off by illusions may indeed have reduced the conspicuous aspect.

There are some caveats to that - namely, that warding something with buckets of magic can make it even MORE conspicuous, to the right senses.

We have yet to see if Girard was dishonest to everyone, or merely to Soon, and ultimate judgment of his actions rests on that.


Really, it only reflects poorly on the comic if an allegedly intelligent and wise person is constantly making exceedingly stupid mistakes.

Lirian :smallsigh:

[hamishspence]

Are there ways of using magic to hide magic? A bit like Nystal's Undetectable Aura, but for spells that are in place?

It sounds like the sort of thing an epic mage would do- if you can do it with items, maybe you can do it with spells.

[bladesyz]

It's worth noting that Soon's war of genocide against the goblins just on the off chance that they might threaten the gates lead pretty directly to Xykon & Redcloak's search for the gates. Gerard may not be a sweetiepie but he's not wrong either.

You're saying that as if the goblins were harmless cuddly ewoks to begin with.

Goblins, orcs and hobgoblins are evil. They go on raids that kill innocent people. They're not just people who want to be left alone. Soon just figured that with the threat of the gate, there is now enough justification to finally wipe out those evil beings once and for all.

[Kish]

*sigh*
Genocide is still evil in D&D and in OotS. The number of people who don't understand this mystifies me.

[Conuly]

*sigh*
Genocide is still evil in D&D and in OotS. The number of people who don't understand this mystifies me.

Starting with the Paladins... though not, apparently, with the arbiters of good and evil on either side of the equation.


Goblins, orcs and hobgoblins are evil. They go on raids that kill innocent people. They're not just people who want to be left alone. Soon just figured that with the threat of the gate, there is now enough justification to finally wipe out those evil beings once and for all.

We don't know that.

We have never - not once! - seen goblins, orcs, or hobgoblins going on a raid to kill innocents for no reason. We have seen paladins go on raids to kill goblins, and adventurers kill a random kobold at the behest of somebody we *know* to be evil.

We don't know how goblins, or orcs, or hobgoblins act when they're not being persecuted, because this doesn't exist. Well, no... we've seen Right-Eye. He... was a carpenter and went to the circus occasionally and was poorer than the surrounding humans but tried not to let him bother him. Oooh, spooky.

Oh, I know - Azure City. It may be an "evil" act to kill a city of paladins, but is it really evil to wage a war against the people who have been sending thugs and murderers out against you for generations? WHY are there different rules for how humans get to act and how goblins and others get to act? If humans go and wipe out a goblin village, down to the babies, that's good? But if goblins, in retaliation, do the same, that's evil?

[Super_slash2]

I think the reason Girard felt it was okay to hide the location from his allies and especially Soon, apart from the fact that he thought Soon was an idiot and could go power-mad, was that there aren't that many reasons for wanting to find The Gate.

1)Suppose someone wants to find The Gate out of curiosity. Doing so would expose the threat to the world. Having a bad lead (wrong co-ordinates) reduces this risk.

2)Finding it to control The Snarl. Doing so would be very bad. Having a bad lead (wrong co-ordinates) reduces the risk of finding the thing.

3)Finding it to help guard it. Knowing the co-ordinates exposes you as a liability, which was addressed earlier in this discussion. But there is no need to guard The Gate if no one evil can find it.

It seems more like Girard's actions could be better explained if he had overwhelming confidence is his abilities to hide it. He could have had it buried under sand, cast illusions around to throw people off or on it to hide it. It could be under a city that he founded with noone thinking to dig 50 feet straight down. In the desert, there's a ridiculous number of ways to make sure something isn't found, using both magic and physical means. Not to say Girard was justified but his actions make more sense and shift from Chaotic Stupid and more to over-confidence if he gave out the wrong co-ordinates because he thought there's really no way people would find it.

And about him making an exception to Power Corrupts because he trusts himself with the knowledge...... well, yes, of course he would know. He set up its defenses, it makes sense for him to have some idea where the God-Killing Abomination is. About him mind-wiping his own memories, why exactly? If he has performed similar enchantments on himself, he'd be just as hard to find. Or he might not even be in the same continent. Or he might done exactly that, altering his own memories of the co-ordinates.

My point is that there might be more to it going on here. Or at least, alternate explanations for why he might have taken this course of action. Sure, his message is vitriolic but it mentioned that it's triggered specifically because of the name Soon. Will it have any useful information if they said Serenii? Probably not, Girard is not an idiot, if we thought of it, I'm sure the people looking for The Gate would have too. But it might have a better tone to it.

Also, if something has a 90% chance of occuring, with 10% chance of failure, I'm probably not going to guard against the 10%. I might acknowledge it. But if I'm going to treat it exactly the same (i.e. by sharing absolutely no useful inormation to the people who aren't a paladin either), then it makes sense to address the 90% chance. I'm not going to give the random bunch of people who walk by the co-ordinates either, why should I acknowledge them if they 'happen' to show up?

Sorry if this is very badly worded. I hope my points make sense.

[Optimystik]

Are there ways of using magic to hide magic? A bit like Nystal's Undetectable Aura, but for spells that are in place?

It sounds like the sort of thing an epic mage would do- if you can do it with items, maybe you can do it with spells.

I would expect no less from an epic illusionist - or at least, a way of making his hidey-magic seem like something else entirely.

But remember also that the actions of epic characters are painfully easy to trace, no matter how well they cover their tracks. You might not know exactly what they did or where, but once you have the when you can begin extrapolating.

The Dark One has nothing if not time, and the Snarl doesn't look like it's going anywhere either.

[SaintRidley]

This is mildly off-side to the power corrupts conversation (which I fully expect to devolve into a flame war about the existence / non-existence of absolute morality, as all such conversations on the internet must), but while we're at least skirting the topic of Girard not being as smart as he thinks he is...

The comment about the glorified petting zoo is definitely the comment of a man too clever by half (as my grandmother used to say). In a world where the Divine has a salient and scientifically verifiable presence, worshiping them (or doing whatever they want you to do with them) isn't only logical, it's perfectly good sense.

Worship gods, get some spells. It works every time, given 8 hours of uninterrupted rest. There's nothing the least bit illogical about it. Demeaning? Undignified? Humiliating? Stupid? As much as all of these things are subjective value judgments, you could make the argument for any of them.

But illogical? No.

:vaarsuvius: It's not as if that's real magic anyway.

[73 Bits of Lint]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?
"You do remember logic, don't you? It's the part of your brain that weeps every time you kneel down ... to a glorified petting zoo." Plus calling someone he doesn't know a "fascist" as a greeting. Miko had nothing on this guy, he's the walking embodiment of obnoxiousness. And that pony tail--beard combo. Ugh.
I guess this is what neckbeards do in a world without youtube, 4chan and Ron Paul. They become bored and work out their anti-social angst by endangering the world.

[bladesyz]

Starting with the Paladins... though not, apparently, with the arbiters of good and evil on either side of the equation.

We don't know that.

We have never - not once! - seen goblins, orcs, or hobgoblins going on a raid to kill innocents for no reason. We have seen paladins go on raids to kill goblins, and adventurers kill a random kobold at the behest of somebody we *know* to be evil.

We don't know how goblins, or orcs, or hobgoblins act when they're not being persecuted, because this doesn't exist. Well, no... we've seen Right-Eye. He... was a carpenter and went to the circus occasionally and was poorer than the surrounding humans but tried not to let him bother him. Oooh, spooky.

Oh, I know - Azure City. It may be an "evil" act to kill a city of paladins, but is it really evil to wage a war against the people who have been sending thugs and murderers out against you for generations? WHY are there different rules for how humans get to act and how goblins and others get to act? If humans go and wipe out a goblin village, down to the babies, that's good? But if goblins, in retaliation, do the same, that's evil?

Just because something wasn't portrayed in the comic doesn't mean IT DIDN'T HAPPEN!! Maybe, just maybe, Rich didn't draw any goblin raids because it wasn't relevant to his story.

Seriously, does the audience REALLY need a demonstration of goblin raids to understand that they're evil? If I wrote a comic that featured Al-Qaeda terrorists, does that mean they might not be evil if I didn't specifically write a scene involving them committing terrorism?

Look at Redcloak: he has no qualms about feeding his underlings to a monster just so the monster will fall asleep. What does that tell you about the rest of his morality? Do you really need to see him killing babies and torturing puppies to understand that he's evil?

[Kish]

bladesyz, have you read Start of Darkness?

[Trixie]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

No. He simply give them back a piece of what he was constantly bombarded with, if Shojo's story is real, and we have no reason to suspect it didn't. In fact, it might be trying to whitewash him.

"Fascist paladin lackeys", heh. :smallamused:

[BadAndyMk3]

...or does Girard sound more self-righteous and obnoxious than any paladin we've seen, with the exception of Miko?

I agree. Not to mention that fact that all his assumptions are wrong.

[Conuly]

You're right - sometimes things aren't shown that have happened.

But when we consistently see humans acting in an unethical and immoral fashion, and see goblins doing it occasionally, why do we say that the humans are good and the goblins are "all evil"? Where is the justice there? Where is the logic?


If I wrote a comic that featured Al-Qaeda terrorists, does that mean they might not be evil if I didn't specifically write a scene involving them committing terrorism?

Part of the problem is that in the real world, people aren't good or evil. Actions are, intentions might be - but people aren't. Very few people in real life go around "being evil" just for the heck of it. They have their reasons, and they might be good reasons or they might be bad reasons, but they tend to think that their reasons justify. Nobody is evil in their own mind.

And then we look at the comic. Are the paladins evil? No, let's not go "They can't be because then they'd fall", let's look at this objectively. Do they do things that we, as readers, would consider evil if they were done to us? I say yes. Do they have their reasons? No doubt - and some of them ("Let's protect the world we live in!") are probably good ones. But does that justify? (It certainly isn't very smart, even if it's not evil. By their actions, they've just made people angry at them - angry enough to do some very risky things.)

Well, the goblins don't think so. Are the goblins evil? We know some of them are, certainly. Do they do evil things? Of course! WHY? Well, in the case of some of them, we know they're doing evil things because they think they have no choice - they'll die either way, so why not take some of them down with them? Others, we see, are trying to secure a better place for them and their kin, a world where they DO have the choice to be good or evil - even if some people have to die to make that world.

Listen to how Xykon - who is undoubtedly evil! - talks! He says it'd be stupid to destroy the world, because he's got a lot of stuff he can still do there and it's fun and hey, he has to live there.

Redcloak accepts the risk that it might get destroyed because he's hit rock bottom and started to dig. He literally cannot see a better life for himself or the goblins in the world that exists. Is it evil to risk the world? Probably - but how desperate does he have to be to do that? Who is more evil - the one who wants to take over the world and hurt people for fun, or the one who thinks it's justified if it means nobody else has to do that ever again? Or the ones who helped push things to the point where little children grow up thinking that the only way to be happy is to destroy everything and start over because the world is so fundamentally unjust that there is literally NO way to live a good, peaceful existence out in the open?

We can read the story as a simple "These are good. These are bad" story, suitable for children, or we can try for a more complex approach where most people - as in real life - are kinda mixed. Unfortunately, that means that we have to have the same rules for paladins as for goblins - if killing children is wrong, it's wrong. If it's not wrong, it's not wrong. If laughing as you kill to gain XP is right, it's right for everybody... not just for those who are ostensibly on the "good" side.

[good_lookin_gus]

"You do remember logic, don't you? It's the part of your brain that weeps every time you kneel down ... to a glorified petting zoo." Plus calling someone he doesn't know a "fascist" as a greeting. Miko had nothing on this guy, he's the walking embodiment of obnoxiousness. And that pony tail--beard combo. Ugh.

Seriously; who makes such sweeping condemnations of others like that?


I guess this is what neckbeards do in a world without youtube, 4chan and Ron Paul. They become bored and work out their anti-social angst by endangering the world.

[Zeful]

"You do remember logic, don't you? It's the part of your brain that weeps every time you kneel down ... to a glorified petting zoo." Plus calling someone he doesn't know a "fascist" as a greeting. Miko had nothing on this guy, he's the walking embodiment of obnoxiousness. And that pony tail--beard combo. Ugh.
I guess this is what neckbeards do in a world without youtube, 4chan and Ron Paul. They become bored and work out their anti-social angst by endangering the world.

Explain how Girard is endangering the world? He's an Epic caster who specializes in custom and powerful illusions. Giving the location of the gate to anyone means endangering it, no matter who they are. The entire defense of the gate can be defeated by blinding someone and having them stumble around until they find it. This means that the location has to be hidden, even from the most well-meaning of allies otherwise given enough time it will be found.

[TheSummoner]

Seriously; who makes such sweeping condemnations of others like that?

Have you ever hated someone before? Really truly despised someone? I've thought worse about a few specific people. Thankfully I'm no longer forced to associate with them...

[Shatteredtower]

Have you ever hated someone before?

You overlooked the dry wit there.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Seriously; who makes such sweeping condemnations of others like that?
I suppose you're trying to turn my comments around on me? An irony thing?
Girard's whole rant reminds me of the typical "screw you, dad, I'm a libertarian atheist now, and I am a thousand times smarter than you"-nonsense you see rolling around the internet, and I'm pretty sure this was purposeful.
That Girard's personality is strongly analogous to a certain type of anti-social internet user, and that Girard's first contact with the Order is a message which accuses people he has never met face-to-face of being fascist, and that his hair style is so distinctively conducive to teenage angst, and that Girard has so far not appeared or taken any role in the outside world that we know of ... it is just too much to be coincidental.

If you wanted to get really crazy, you could start talking about the similarities between rick rolling and sending a party of adventurers to a random point in the middle of the desert.

[73 Bits of Lint]

Explain how Girard is endangering the world? He's an Epic caster who specializes in custom and powerful illusions. Giving the location of the gate to anyone means endangering it, no matter who they are. The entire defense of the gate can be defeated by blinding someone and having them stumble around until they find it. This means that the location has to be hidden, even from the most well-meaning of allies otherwise given enough time it will be found.
We know that Xykon is going to get to the vicinity of Girard's gate, and probably within at least a couple years (so less than a century after Girard built his gate in the first place). Meaning that this whole "lying to the people who should have been your allies"-bit didn't help Girard in the least, and the Law of Drama (which an adventurer like Girard should have figured out by the time he reached Epic levels) dictates that crazy magical phenomena don't just disappear because you lied to a few people about where they were.
Especially since there were apparently bad guys of one sort or another at each one of the rifts that the first Order visited, meaning that there would already be rumors about "things of great power revered by a violent cult who were wiped out many years ago" floating around.

[TheSummoner]

Get within 1000 feet does not mean conquer. Yeah, chances are Girard's gate will fall, but there was also a ~90% chance that Soon or one of his Paladins would've triggered that message.

Even if it does fall, its a bit early to be pinning the blame on Girard.

[good_lookin_gus]

I suppose you're trying to turn my comments around on me? An irony thing?

More specifically, hypocrisy.


Girard's whole rant reminds me of the typical "screw you, dad, I'm a libertarian atheist now, and I am a thousand times smarter than you"-nonsense you see rolling around the internet, and I'm pretty sure this was purposeful.

All apologies to affiliates of the aforementioned political and religious views. I'm betting 2 to 1 on a partial scrubbing of your post.


Girard's personality is strongly analogous to a certain type of anti-social internet user,

who exists primarily in your head


and that Girard's first contact with the Order is a message which accuses people he has never met face-to-face of being fascist,

Seriously; who does that?


and that his hair style is so distinctively conducive to teenage angst,

Lolwut?


and that Girard has so far not appeared or taken any role in the outside world that we know of

Ummmm... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

[SaintRidley]

I suppose you're trying to turn my comments around on me? An irony thing?
Girard's whole rant reminds me of the typical "screw you, dad, I'm a libertarian atheist now, and I am a thousand times smarter than you"-nonsense you see rolling around the internet, and I'm pretty sure this was purposeful.
That Girard's personality is strongly analogous to a certain type of anti-social internet user, and that Girard's first contact with the Order is a message which accuses people he has never met face-to-face of being fascist, and that his hair style is so distinctively conducive to teenage angst, and that Girard has so far not appeared or taken any role in the outside world that we know of ... it is just too much to be coincidental.

If you wanted to get really crazy, you could start talking about the similarities between rick rolling and sending a party of adventurers to a random point in the middle of the desert.

*sigh*

Is this really what you're going to use? I'll try to be brief in this.

Yes, I do suppose he was trying to point out the hypocrisy. Indeed, he did a very adequate job of it and you only continue to illustrate how good a job with this post.

Furthermore, I really do like how you make the libertarian atheist comparison. Am I correct in reading into that that you think libertarians and atheists are extremely full of themselves and are jerks? Because, you know, blanket statements and all. Indeed, the attitude Girard has is purposeful. Probably because he hated Soon. And he knew how best to stir up rage in Soon. So why wouldn't he leave his message for Soon in such a way that it would be incredibly insulting to everything Soon holds dear? It doesn't matter if it ever reaches Soon, because the point is that it might reach Soon or someone who belongs to Soon's order of paladins.

And again you seem to fall back to your over-generalisations. Yes, some people on the internet are anti-social jerks. I don't see how that necessitates that they have the traits you ascribe to that set of anti-social jerks. Nor do I see how having those traits necessitates their being anti-social jerks in the first place. Let alone the hair. How is hair in any way conducive to teenage angst? Sure, you could argue that it is an indicator of teenage angst for a male to have long hair and facial hair, but then that would also be silly. Consider that there are grown men who wear their hair in such a way because they actually find it comfortable. Consider that, by evidence of his avatar, our kindly comic author appears to have similar hair and facial hair. Are you going to stand there and claim that our author is exhibiting signs of teenage angst?

As far as Girard's not taking a role in the outside world... Dorukon didn't do much in the way of taking a role in the outside world once he had finished protecting his gate. Indeed, for someone who wants to use the power of deception to protect his gate, taking no role in the outside world and effectively dropping off the face of the earth is another layer of protection.

And to the rickrolling comparison, let's look at the situation. Girard did not send the Order there. Indeed, he sent no adventurers there at all. Furthermore, the misleading is not for his amusement (though that would have been a side benefit had he ended up with the correct people there hearing the message) but to better protect the gate. Rickrolling, on the other hand, is purely for the amusement of the person placing the link.


It really boils down to this, though. Making over-generalisations about people in an attempt to deride someone for making over-generalisations about people just doesn't work because you are actively working against making your point worth listening to by doing so.

[Mugen Nightgale]

I think Girard wins.
The forum seems so focused in his silly rant that no one is really caring about the gate. I'm not caring if he sounds arrogant or anything because that's not really important. My question is "Is it secret? Is it safe?". As far as I know. Yes it is.

[Foryn Gilnith]

No, it's not important that he's arrogant. But that's what we're discussing now. Is his gate safe? Well, it might be. As far as you know, it is. But you don't know anything. None of us know anything. All we know is that he made a silly rant, and so that's all we're talking about. Not enough information to carry on logical discussion about the safety of the gate.

1) Girard acknowledged about a 10% chance of being wrong. That's significant. Smaller than it actually should be, but significant. The fact that the rant is prefaced by "there's a 10% chance I'm making a fool of myself" somewhat undermines the claim Girard is self-righteous.
2) Girard is still a douche. My subjective opinion; not interested in defending it. Will consider any criticism leveled at me; will not reply.

3) The reason Girard considers Southern-god-worship illogical is that the tropes say so. It's an omnipresent cliche.
A: I am a mage. Ur "religion" is stupid and closed-minded and unscientific and oppressing people, and your "magic" isn't "real" because I in my arrogance say so.
B: I am a priest. You're obviously dangerous and insane and anti-theistic even though you have the same paranormal powers that my god and its servants have. I must rally peasant mobs to burn your witchy evil in a thinly-veiled and offensive parody of real-life religion.

[Optimystik]

1) Girard acknowledged about a 10% chance of being wrong. That's significant. Smaller than it actually should be, but significant. The fact that the rant is prefaced by "there's a 10% chance I'm making a fool of myself" somewhat undermines the claim Girard is self-righteous.

That "significant chance" is itself undermined by the fact that he can build conditions into his spell.


Sub IllusionAnsweringMachine

IF Keywords.Heard = "Soon" + "Gate" + "Girard" + "Sapphire Guard" THEN
Call SoonRant
END IF

End Sub


If he had a simple line in there that asked "Are you here on behalf of Soon, or associated with him in any way?" BEFORE his tirade, then I would be a lot more understanding.

[Foryn Gilnith]

I'm still hoping that Xykon roasts him alive and the Order ends up saving the Gate instead, basically by accident. :smallbiggrin:

It looks like this still has a decent chance of happening! Yay.

[SaintRidley]

3) The reason Girard considers Southern-god-worship illogical is that the tropes say so. It's an omnipresent cliche.
A: I am a mage. Ur "religion" is stupid and closed-minded and unscientific and oppressing people, and your "magic" isn't "real" because I in my arrogance say so.
B: I am a priest. You're obviously dangerous and insane and anti-theistic even though you have the same paranormal powers that my god and its servants have. I must rally peasant mobs to burn your witchy evil in a thinly-veiled and offensive parody of real-life religion.
There's also C: Your gods are not my gods and therefore are stupid.

[bladesyz]

That "significant chance" is itself undermined by the fact that he can build conditions into his spell.


Sub IllusionAnsweringMachine

IF Keywords.Heard = "Soon" + "Gate" + "Girard" + "Sapphire Guard" THEN
Call SoonRant
END IF

End Sub


If he had a simple line in there that asked "Are you here on behalf of Soon, or associated with him in any way?" BEFORE his tirade, then I would be a lot more understanding.

You demonstration of coding knowledge is marred by the fact that you are using VB syntax.