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View Full Version : Ways around Blinking Miss Chance



Rasman
2009-12-14, 08:00 PM
I know casters can get around the 20% miss chance that blinking gets, relatively anyway, but for martial classes, there any surefire ways to avoid that 20% miss chance?

Ravens_cry
2009-12-14, 08:03 PM
Sacrifice a virgin to the RNG?
Anyway, D&D is a team effort, and your resident spell monkey should be willing to use their spell slots so you can off the baddie.

jseah
2009-12-14, 08:04 PM
Pierce Magical Concealment.

It's a feat from somewhere I can't recall.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 08:06 PM
Ghost Touch Weapon.

Signmaker
2009-12-14, 08:10 PM
Ghost Touch Weapon.

Debatable, as Incorporeal!=Ethereal. I've seen it argued both ways, and I'm more or less on the Nay side.

I'd suggest any form of force effect weapon you can find. Yes, most of them are rare and expensive, but it's better than doing nothing.

Ravens_cry
2009-12-14, 08:12 PM
Pierce Magical Concealment.

It's a feat from somewhere I can't recall.
Complete Arcane (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/feats).

jseah
2009-12-14, 08:12 PM
Riverine material?

I think that counts as a Force effect and so is both Ghost Touch and Ethereal-touch (whatever that is)

erikun
2009-12-14, 08:14 PM
Note that force effects on the Ethereal Plane don't extend into the Material Plane, so if ghost touch doesn't work than some kind of forceblade will not either. You'd need something transdimensional. (I believe there is a Transdimentional metamagic feat.)

Not sure what weapon enchantment would grant that properity, but I'm sure there's one somewhere.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-12-14, 08:16 PM
True sight?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 08:18 PM
He's still blinking on and off this plane of reality.

Signmaker
2009-12-14, 08:19 PM
Note that force effects on the Ethereal Plane don't extend into the Material Plane, so if ghost touch doesn't work than some kind of forceblade will not either. You'd need something transdimensional. (I believe there is a Transdimentional metamagic feat.)

Not sure what weapon enchantment would grant that properity, but I'm sure there's one somewhere.

Wrong direction. Material->Ethereal works fine.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-14, 08:20 PM
IIRC, ninjas gain the ability to strike into/from the Ethereal.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-14, 08:23 PM
So we'll have to wield gnome ninjas as weapons.

elonin
2009-12-14, 08:56 PM
From what i recall there was a Q and A asking about getting around the 50% miss chance. Having a way to attack into the ethereal plane (ghost touch etc) reduces the miss chance to 20%. Being able to see into the ethereal plane (see invisible etc) also reduces it to 20%. Doing both removes the miss chance. Having a ghost touch weapon removes the 20% miss chance if you are under the effect of blink.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 09:02 PM
Ghost touch weapons do NOT negate blink's miss chance if you are blinking.

The miss chance represents missing because you became ethereal.

Creatures on the Material Plane can affect creatures on the ethereal plane with gaze effects, force effects, and abjuration spells.

Creatures on the Ethereal Plane cannot affect creatures on the material plane. Period.

Link supporting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness)

Etherealness
Phase spiders and certain other creatures can exist on the Ethereal Plane. While on the Ethereal Plane, a creature is called ethereal. Unlike incorporeal creatures, ethereal creatures are not present on the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane. Even most magical attacks have no effect on them. See invisibility and true seeing reveal ethereal creatures.

An ethereal creature can see and hear into the Material Plane in a 60-foot radius, though material objects still block sight and sound. (An ethereal creature can’t see through a material wall, for instance.) An ethereal creature inside an object on the Material Plane cannot see. Things on the Material Plane, however, look gray, indistinct, and ghostly. An ethereal creature can’t affect the Material Plane, not even magically. An ethereal creature, however, interacts with other ethereal creatures and objects the way material creatures interact with material creatures and objects.

Even if a creature on the Material Plane can see an ethereal creature the ethereal creature is on another plane. Only force effects can affect the ethereal creatures. If, on the other hand, both creatures are ethereal, they can affect each other normally.

A force effect originating on the Material Plane extends onto the Ethereal Plane, so that a wall of force blocks an ethereal creature, and a magic missile can strike one (provided the spellcaster can see the ethereal target). Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

Ethereal creatures move in any direction (including up or down) at will. They do not need to walk on the ground, and material objects don’t block them (though they can’t see while their eyes are within solid material).

Ghosts have a power called manifestation that allows them to appear on the Material Plane as incorporeal creatures. Still, they are on the Ethereal Plane, and another ethereal creature can interact normally with a manifesting ghost. Ethereal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as air. Ethereal creatures do not fall or take falling damage.
Emphasis mine.

Underlined text shows that Ethereal creatures are not simply incorporeal. Effects which affect incorporeal creatures does not work, unless they are also listed to affect ethereal. Regardless, none of the suggested effects (force, abjuration, gaze) work from ethereal to material. They work from material to ethereal, but not the other way.

Bolded text shows that force effects, gaze effects, and abjurations do not go from ethereal to material.

In short, no effect to date, other than transdimensional spell and Pierce Magical Concealment, can do it.

Douglas
2009-12-14, 09:06 PM
Debatable, as Incorporeal!=Ethereal. I've seen it argued both ways, and I'm more or less on the Nay side.

I'd suggest any form of force effect weapon you can find. Yes, most of them are rare and expensive, but it's better than doing nothing.
No, it is not debatable except in the sense that people who don't understand the rules might try to debate it. The RAW is perfectly clear. Incorporeal != Ethereal. Ghost Touch deals with incorporeal. Blink makes someone ethereal. The two are different, and effects that deal with one do not automatically deal with the other.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 09:07 PM
No, it is not debatable except in the sense that people who don't understand the rules might try to debate it. The RAW is perfectly clear. Incorporeal != Ethereal. Ghost Touch deals with incorporeal. Blink makes someone ethereal. The two are different, and effects that deal with one do not automatically deal with the other.

In addition, even force effects won't work.

Douglas
2009-12-14, 09:13 PM
For negating the Blink subject's miss chance on his own attacks, that is correct. Force effects (combined with See Invisibility) do negate the miss chance for someone else who is attacking the Blinking person. Ghost Touch weapons don't work in either direction.

Stabber1010
2009-12-14, 09:15 PM
Lets munchkin our way out of this.

Assuming the person/blink dog is staying in 1 place while they blink, simply leave the weapon in their "space" this guarantees that when they re-appear, they will have sword inside of them.

For more fun, use a box that activates fireball when it is touched by that person. They will have an explosion inside of them D:

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-14, 09:16 PM
Lets munchkin our way out of this.

Assuming the person/blink dog is staying in 1 place while they blink, simply leave the weapon in their "space" this guarantees that when they re-appear, they will have sword inside of them.

For more fun, use a box that activates fireball when it is touched by that person. They will have an explosion inside of them D:

Munchkining involves using RAW to support your claims. This is, unfortunately, unfounded in any RAW.


For negating the Blink subject's miss chance on his own attacks, that is correct. Force effects (combined with See Invisibility) do negate the miss chance for someone else who is attacking the Blinking person. Ghost Touch weapons don't work in either direction.

Not many effects do.

PMC ignores the miss chance, but it's unclear on whether it lets you pierce the veil between ethereal and material, or if it represents knowledge of the blink spell enough to properly time attacks. I lean towards the former.

Upon reading Transdimensional Spell, even it won't go to the material plane FROM the ethereal. So, it's PMC, and that's it.

Grumman
2009-12-14, 09:25 PM
Lets munchkin our way out of this.

Assuming the person/blink dog is staying in 1 place while they blink, simply leave the weapon in their "space" this guarantees that when they re-appear, they will have sword inside of them.
At worst, they'd just be shunted about 6 inches, which isn't far enough to do any damage.

jseah
2009-12-14, 09:30 PM
Found it.

Ethereal Reaver - Unique weapon, Complete Psionic, pg 106

This weapon exists on BOTH material and ethereal plane at the same time.
It also gives toggleable see invis when drawn. (which allows seeing ethereal and incorporeal targets)

This negates blink miss chance for attacker and user.

Rasman
2009-12-14, 09:34 PM
Found it.

Ethereal Reaver - Unique weapon, Complete Psionic, pg 106

This weapon exists on BOTH material and ethereal plane at the same time.
It also gives toggleable see invis when drawn. (which allows seeing ethereal and incorporeal targets)

This negates blink miss chance for attacker and user.

knew there was a way around it, shame it has to come in the form of a Unique weapon...might have to see if I can get my DM to let me have that as a weapon effect type deal...

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-14, 09:38 PM
Upon reading Transdimensional Spell, even it won't go to the material plane FROM the ethereal. So, it's PMC, and that's it.
I see what you mean, but couldn't a case be made over this?


You can cast spells that affect targets lurking in coexistent planes...
As far as I know, the Material plane is coexistent with the Ethereal. I admit this is in the general description of the feat, and not the "benefits" section, but I'm not quite sure if that reduces its legality.

Ernir
2009-12-14, 09:57 PM
knew there was a way around it, shame it has to come in the form of a Unique weapon...might have to see if I can get my DM to let me have that as a weapon effect type deal...

Hmm. Seems like there was an attempt to make an enhancement out of it (MIC 34 has an enhancement with that name), but that one functions as a Ghost Touch weapon + an item of See Invisibility, and says nothing about being able to attack ethereal creatures. :smallmad:

taltamir
2009-12-14, 10:11 PM
is 20% really that big of a deal to warrant this kind of investment?
Besides... if you HAVE to disable it, delay action until after your wizards turn... he casts dispel on the blink, you then maul the guy.

jseah
2009-12-14, 10:17 PM
It's not just "this kind of investment".

If you invest in an Ethereal Reaver, and takes feats and class abilities (ToB say) to work effectively with it, you get to attack from the ethereal plane to the prime material plane.

With the corresponding sneak attack goodness that comes from a more invisible than invisible and more silent than silent attacker. As in, invisibility adds +20 to your hide. Optimized spot can punch through that. It can't see ethereal without a buff.

Plus you can attack from inside the floor.

Find a way to get immunity to force effects and be incorporeal at the same time and you're attacking from incorporeal ethereal to the Prime Material. While they have to transdimensional spell to even get a 50% chance of hitting.

taltamir
2009-12-14, 10:31 PM
I meant this kind of an investment to hit the guy with the blur spell...
Investing into becoming ethereal and attacking the prime from it is a delicious sounding strategy... and would make for an interesting and scary encounter when unexpected (and unprepared for)...
Although, once the players know it is there, they can prepare for it specifically and ruin the day of the guy whose entire build focuses on that.

jseah
2009-12-14, 10:34 PM
True enough. The counter is simply planeshifting to the Ethereal.

Which works until the guy planeshifts back to Prime Material.

That said, a high-level battle where the two combatants flick between the two planes (and perhaps even Shadow) in order to gain an upperhand would be an awesome thing to watch.

Snails
2009-12-14, 10:36 PM
Awesome Smite from the Complete Champion allows the Paladin to defeat all miss chances (concealment, incorporeal, etc.) when smiting.

taltamir
2009-12-14, 10:42 PM
scroll of greater blink solves that encoutner fast... RIP guy who spend entire build on that...

Kantolin
2009-12-14, 10:59 PM
Magic Item Compendium, pg 55

Rapier of Unerring Direction. It's a relic, and thus requires level 9 and the true believer feat (Or a 5th level spell slot). Interestingly, no alignment restrictions, though. Go Fharlanghn.

ghashxx
2009-12-14, 11:14 PM
True enough. The counter is simply planeshifting to the Ethereal.

Which works until the guy planeshifts back to Prime Material.

That said, a high-level battle where the two combatants flick between the two planes (and perhaps even Shadow) in order to gain an upperhand would be an awesome thing to watch.

I would love to see that battle.
But I'm definitely going to be keeping tabs on this thread to see if anyone figures out a way to be ethreal kick some serious material plane tushy. I'm not all that well versed in the subject, and am way too busy at the moment to offer any real help myself.