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Thurbane
2009-12-14, 08:01 PM
Hey all, an issue has cropped up at our game a few times now, just wondered what the consensus is with how to deal with it...

Character X is invisible, and opponent Y has not detected him. Y tries to move through X's square to reach character Z. How do you deal with Y moving (unawares) through an occupied square? Is it a bull rush? An overrun? What if Y tries to end his turn in the square occupied by X? Does it depend on whether X tries to resist Y's movement? Is the relative size of X and Y important?

Cheers - T

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-14, 08:12 PM
Character X may make an attack of opportunity against Character Y, which may break Character X's invisibility. If Character Y enters Character X's square, it would render Character X detectable (not visible), and Character Y can not go through that square. ("You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless.") Character Y would be told that he bumped into an invisible something, moved to his last "legal" tile, and reasonably, Character Y could use the blinded rules to attempt to strike the something Character Y ran into, or finish his movement in a different direction.

...

I'm going to guess I got ninja'ed in this.

EDIT: Oh, hey, no ninjas!

PIRATE'D!

Curmudgeon
2009-12-14, 08:26 PM
I think this covers the situation:
Squeezing

In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to AC.
...
A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. As far as the moving character is concerned, it's just difficult (for whatever reason) terrain.
Difficult Terrain

Difficult terrain hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. (Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares.) Bull rush and overrun are special attacks, and if you don't know that an enemy's present it seems unlikely that you're trying to attack them. :smallwink: You would get new reactive Spot and Listen checks as you squeeze past the invisible character, though; while you don't know (unless you succeed on a check) that someone is there, you do know that there's something slowing you down in that square.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 08:37 PM
Just let the invisible character step to the side. Opponent Y isn't actively engaging him and people don't necessarily take up the entirety of their squares. If Opponent Y ends in Character X's square then Character Y can remain there but if he tries anything complicated (attacking Opponent Y, casting a spell, reaching for an item, or using a skill) then he has to move. Simply standing still shouldn't harm anyone.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-14, 08:42 PM
As far as the moving character is concerned, it's just difficult (for whatever reason) terrain.
I thought the "Squeezing" rules would only apply to situations where you are, for example, going through a hallway that's five feet wide where you are ten feet wide. If you're going through a twenty-five by twenty-five foot square room (and everyone takes up a five-foot square), you're not squeezing by, so wouldn't the general rule for "Moving through a Square" I quoted earlier apply?

Either way, how would one know to squeeze?

JaxGaret
2009-12-14, 08:48 PM
A medium-sized person is, at maximum, a 3 feet wide by 2 feet deep object. The game square is 5x5 feet.

That means that of the 25 square feet in one game square, the character is taking up but 6 square feet. And that's a big medium-sized creature, like a Gnoll. Humans take up maybe half that space.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 08:50 PM
I thought the "Squeezing" rules would only apply to situations where you are, for example, going through a hallway that's five feet wide where you are ten feet wide. If you're going through a twenty-five by twenty-five foot square room (and everyone takes up a five-foot square), you're not squeezing by, so wouldn't the general rule for "Moving through a Square" I quoted earlier apply?

Either way, how would one know to squeeze?

I forget where I read it (or maybe it was just a longstanding houserule that I homogenized into my brain) but I've always used the squeezing rule when two allies fight in the same square such as fighting back-to-back.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-14, 09:01 PM
I forget where I read it (or maybe it was just a longstanding houserule that I homogenized into my brain) but I've always used the squeezing rule when two allies fight in the same square such as fighting back-to-back.
That's sort of a different situation, because that's allies you're talking about, and you can, generally, move through squares containing allies with no problem. As written, you're not "supposed to" end your turn in a square occupied by another creature unless the other creature is helpless... Oh... But then the Grapple rules kind of blow up. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2009-12-14, 09:10 PM
I thought the "Squeezing" rules would only apply to situations where you are, for example, going through a hallway that's five feet wide where you are ten feet wide.
The rules specify that you can squeeze past your enemies while moving, without any requirement of there being hard surfaces to restrict your movement. So I think your mind has constructed an expectation of how to apply this rule that's more limiting than the actual RAW.

Either way, how would one know to squeeze? There's no "knowing" requirement, either. However, I envision the enemy stepping to the side, and you slowing down just because something made you move cautiously. That something could be a few suspiciously loose pebbles that you don't want to slip on, deeper shadows that restrict visibility, or a bit of warmth on the air that makes you paranoid; you just don't know. And D&D doesn't require that level of complexity, any more than it distinguishes between attacks that might hit your spleen or kidneys. Anyway, a medium character doesn't take up anywhere close to 25 square feet of floor space. There's generally plenty of room for 2 characters in that square, if one is avoiding contact with the other.

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-14, 10:00 PM
The rules specify that you can squeeze past your enemies while moving, without any requirement of there being hard surfaces to restrict your movement.
The quote you provided requires, "an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up." If the area Character Y is moving into is five feet wide, and Character Y is five feet wide, then Character Y cannot squeeze. I am under the impression that adding a creature into the area Character Y is passing through does not make the area any smaller- it just makes it a tile that an enemy is currently occupying. Case in point: If that creature is helpless, then Character Y can pass through, with no penalty.

Otherwise, there's no reason for the rule stated in Moving through a Square, because we can just squeeze by any enemy we ever need to pass by, completely ignoring the earlier rule that you can't move through an enemy's square (page 149... The entire second column).

While I know examples are not necessarily RAW, I think it is worth pointing out that all of the squeezing rule example pictures in the Player's Handbook use a Large creature and a five-foot hallway.


However, I envision the enemy stepping to the side,
That would be taking a five-foot step out of initiative. If it's not an entire five-foot step, then it would surely be a total of five feet of movement for the character to move back into the original position after the square has been freed.


and you slowing down just because something made you move cautiously. That something could be a few suspiciously loose pebbles that you don't want to slip on, deeper shadows that restrict visibility, or a bit of warmth on the air that makes you paranoid; you just don't know.
Which class gets something as a class feature? Sounds pretty useful to me.
Would a character that flies, is blind, and can't feel any change in temperature then be immune to this something?


And D&D doesn't require that level of complexity, any more than it distinguishes between attacks that might hit your spleen or kidneys.
Book of Vile Darkness has "Wither Limb," which produces different effects depending on whether you target an arm or a leg. Okay, so it's not an attack, and it's not a spleen or kidney, but me and the principle of the matter.


Anyway, a medium character doesn't take up anywhere close to 25 square feet of floor space. There's generally plenty of room for 2 characters in that square, if one is avoiding contact with the other.
As I made clear earlier in this post, if there is plenty of room, you cannot squeeze.

9mm
2009-12-14, 10:03 PM
"you bump into something, you can move around it, but something is there"

ericgrau
2009-12-14, 10:12 PM
Turn by turn movement is for simplicity, as everything really happens at the same time. Letting someone by is more than plausible, just as you'd do IRL. Also why you can make reflex saves when it's not your turn. Yes you can simply let someone by you without consuming movement, and this is even given as an option for special attacks like overrun.

EDIT: avr said it more simply.

avr
2009-12-14, 10:17 PM
I'd say the invisible guy has a choice of whether to treat it as an overrun attempt or whether to let the other guy through as he were an ally.

Darrin
2009-12-14, 11:06 PM
Character X is invisible, and opponent Y has not detected him. Y tries to move through X's square to reach character Z. How do you deal with Y moving (unawares) through an occupied square? Is it a bull rush? An overrun? What if Y tries to end his turn in the square occupied by X? Does it depend on whether X tries to resist Y's movement? Is the relative size of X and Y important?


I treat it as an accidental overrun. X has the option to step aside and allow Y to continue moving through his square, in which case Y proceeds as he intended, and is not aware that Y was in the square (although I like Curmudgeon's idea of allowing a new spot/listen check, I may have to borrow that).

If Y actually took the Improved Overrun feat (WTF? BURN THE INFIDEL!), X can't avoid, and I either say invisibility trumps Improved Overrun and X avoids anyway, or Y is forced to spend his standard action on the attempt to knock Y on his butt.

If Y ends his movement in X's square, then I treat it as an accidental bull rush, and after AoOs/strength checks get sorted out, someone shoves the other guy out of the square.

Meaningless Trivia: Unseen Servants can bull rush or prevent someone from charging you. You can direct them to either refuse to avoid an opponent moving through their square, which causes your opponent to waste a standard action on an overrun attempt, or have them ready an action to bull rush anyone who enters their square.

RandomLunatic
2009-12-14, 11:32 PM
To answer this, I would fall back on a line of text that appears in the Overrun section.


Step 2
Opponent Avoids? The defender has the option to simply avoid you. If he avoids you, he doesn’t suffer any ill effect and you may keep moving (You can always move through a square occupied by someone who lets you by.) The overrun attempt doesn’t count against your actions this round (except for any movement required to enter the opponent’s square). If your opponent doesn’t avoid you, move to Step 3.

So I would give X the choice of either getting out of the way (no roll), in which case Y proceeds, none the wiser (unless X takes the AoO), or blocking, in which case Y would get the choice of either initiaitng a Bull Rush or Overrun attack, or stopping and moving back to the last legal position he occupied.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-15, 02:44 AM
The quote you provided requires, "an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up." If the area Character Y is moving into is five feet wide, and Character Y is five feet wide, then Character Y cannot squeeze.
You can be either singular or plural. The space you (characters X and Y together) take up is more than a single 5' square. If you (singular) are entering a space that's already occupied, you (plural) are squeezing.

Fiery Diamond
2009-12-15, 02:54 AM
To answer this, I would fall back on a line of text that appears in the Overrun section.



So I would give X the choice of either getting out of the way (no roll), in which case Y proceeds, none the wiser (unless X takes the AoO), or blocking, in which case Y would get the choice of either initiaitng a Bull Rush or Overrun attack, or stopping and moving back to the last legal position he occupied.

This seems to me to be the most reasonable way of dealing with the situation. The only time that a different approach would be needed (such as not allowing X to get out of the way) is if X completely fills up the space Y is trying to go through and there isn't room for X to move elsewhere.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-15, 07:57 AM
All of the above are incorrect.

SRD, moving through a Square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re)

Friend
You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn’t provide you with cover.

Opponent
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent, unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. (Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.)
Emphasis mine. There is no penalty for moving through squares, but if the character is not friendly, you may not do it, barring the active choice to grapple/bull rush/etc (basically, a maneuver that explicitly allows it).

OracleofWuffing
2009-12-15, 10:03 AM
The space you (characters X and Y together) take up is more than a single 5' square.
While this is a logical conclusion, it is contrary to information provided in the book. In most cases, you can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent with no penalty- thank you PhoenixRivers- which means that the space characters X and Y take up together is less than or equal to a single five foot square. Yes, I know I just said 1 + 1 <= 1, but it would not be the first thing in the combat rules where an abstraction is preferred to a more realistic outcome.

A pity, too, because otherwise one could make some pretty silly tricks, like having a commoner, animal companion, or other expendable resource five-foot step into an enemy's square, forcing a -4 to AC and attack rolls with no save.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-15, 02:52 PM
All of the above are incorrect.

SRD, moving through a Square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#movingthroughaSqua re)

There is no penalty for moving through squares, but if the character is not friendly, you may not do it
You may not move through an opponent's square, but you can squeeze through that opponent's square. From that same SRD page you referenced (also the very next page of the PH):
Squeezing

A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can’t end its movement in an occupied square. Apparently it's just a matter of terminology: moving has no penalties, but squeezing has a double movement cost associated with it.