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cZak
2009-12-14, 08:13 PM
I'm curious what is the preferred method of stat generation.

Point buy; 25, 28, 35, etc...
I'm reluctant to allow this one because of the min/max potential. Wiz has 18 Int and damn everything else.


dice roll; 3d6, 4d6 (drop lowest), etc...
assign in order, assign by choice
Do you trust players or insult them by requiring them to roll in front of you?
And if its just a horrible set, do they reroll? What's the liit on a bad set? Yea, I know the DMG says "...if all ability modifiers total -3 or less", but what player is willing to accept an array of 10,10,10,9,9,9?:smallmad:

string; 17,15,13,12,10,8 or whatever...
Seems the most 'balanced', but I can already hear the screams of 'Railroad!!! Why are you trying to control my artistic efforts?!?!?":smallsmile:

DownwardSpiral
2009-12-14, 08:24 PM
If I was DMing, I'd let my players choose between 4d6, reroll 1s, OR 32 point buy. (aka, you can't roll, and then decide when you see you got crap. =D )

but personally, 32 point buy. Not too high, and defeats the whole "oh crap all 13s" thing I got once when I rolled..... But yeah, as the OP said, it sort of leads to a bit of min-maxery.......Which I'm alright with. =D

erikun
2009-12-14, 08:26 PM
Point buy and String methods end up with roughly the same stats, usually. The Wizard is just going to stick that 17 into INT anyways.

I generally don't DM, but the few times that I have are frequently with new players. In that case, Rolling or String methods are frequently the best. I've generally use Rolling with the option to re-roll a bad collection of stats. Most players aren't going to try re-rolling until they get all 18's, and it helps the new players get excited about the high numbers their first characters have. :smallwink:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-12-14, 08:30 PM
4d6b3 or 18, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8.

Scoot
2009-12-14, 08:30 PM
As a DM, I like point-buy according to power level of campaign.

My players are prone to either extremely high (3 18's nothing below 16 etc), or extremely low stats. I like to make sure everyone is fairly equal in their stats.

If we do just roll(4d6 Drop lowest), I appoint re-rolls as I see fit. I don't enjoy characters falling behind because of horrid stats, but I won't force a re-roll if you get straight 18's (so long as you can prove they're not cheat dice :smalleek: )

As a player, either very high point-buy(Always fun when a DM goes over 32), or roll 4-5d6 with generous re-rolls. :smallwink:

starwoof
2009-12-14, 08:31 PM
I usually say 4d6, pick the three highest, re-roll 1s. If you absolutely hate it, roll 2 lines and pick the one you like. Honestly if one of my players asked to just assign the number he wants in a score I would let them. :smallbiggrin:

jokey665
2009-12-14, 08:36 PM
32 point buy.

nekomata2
2009-12-14, 08:36 PM
Personally, I hate rolling for stats, it just feels too random, and I'd rather the party have similiar stats, rather than one character having 3 17s while another character has 1 14 and 3 10s.

Alas, every DM i've ever had love the rolling method, though with my dice jesus DM, he let us keep ours or take the ones he rolled. You always picked his. There were always at least 2 18s.

Harperfan7
2009-12-14, 08:53 PM
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

All npcs will have elite or average array.

Curmudgeon
2009-12-14, 08:55 PM
32 point buy.

rayne_dragon
2009-12-14, 09:01 PM
3d6 In Order, no rerolls or any of this fancy crap you kids do these days. ;D

I usually do 4d6, drop lowest, arrange to taste when I run a D&D game though.

Temotei
2009-12-14, 09:04 PM
4d6 drop lowest for four sets, the player picks their favorite/best set, and assigns scores as they see fit.

Serpentine
2009-12-14, 09:39 PM
In my game, my characters start with one 8 and one 18, roll 5d6 scrap the lowest two for the others. Pretty high-powered, but most of my players are somewhere on the opposite end of the spectrum from optimisers and power gamers. I'll often allow a couple of rerolls and apply a lot of my own judgement, but the goal is interesting stats, not just good ones.
I once worked out my ideal stat array through complicated analysis. I can't remember what I came out with, but it was something like 1x<9, 1x9-11,x2 12-15, 1x16-17, 1x18.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-14, 09:46 PM
4d6b3 seven times, using the six highest. No particular reason behind it. My players rolled an average of the equivalent to 37 point buy, so I offer any new characters the option of taking 37 point buy, and use it for all major NPCs and villains. I've always wondered what the statistical average actually works out to though.

Gensh
2009-12-14, 09:54 PM
I always go 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18. That was the first setup that I ever played in, so I've made it a habit of doing it while DMing. Casters get their max stat, melee-ers don't have to worry about spreading thin, and I don't cry when I finally play, and I roll straight ones.

Hashmir
2009-12-14, 10:11 PM
4d6 drop lowest four times, the player picks their favorite/best set, and assigns scores as they see fit.

I've seen a cool one that I've never tried yet, but it only works if everyone's together.

Basically, everyone rolls one set (let's say 4d6b3 x6). You write them down and put them in the middle, and then everyone gets to choose which of those arrays they want to use. It's both random and optimizey.

Draz74
2009-12-14, 10:14 PM
My latest method is to allow players to select their starting scores from a menu of arrays, all of which are supposed to be equal overall. (Or, well, some of them clearly suck for most builds. I am trying to gently encourage picking a "normal" array or something like it.)

This is similar to 28-point buy (upon which it is based, as the most "normal" array is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8), but with a little less potential for min-maxing, especially for SAD classes, since picking up an 18 is more penalized here than in point buy.

Here are the available arrays:
Close to the default array
16 * 14 * 14 * 12 * 10 * 08
16 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 12 * 08
16 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 10 * 10
16 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 09

Arrays with a super-ability
17 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 08
18 * 14 * 12 * 11 * 10 * 07
18 * 15 * 12 * 11 * 09 * 07
18 * 16 * 12 * 10 * 07 * 05

Arrays with a significant "weakness" score
16 * 14 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 07
16 * 15 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 06
16 * 15 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 05
16 * 14 * 14 * 14 * 11 * 04
16 * 15 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 03

"Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" arrays
15 * 14 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 09
15 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 10
14 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 11 * 10
13 * 13 * 13 * 12 * 12 * 12

Deepblue706
2009-12-14, 10:18 PM
I prefer 25 point buy (usually in the form of Elite Array), although nobody else seems to so I generally have my players go for 32 points, sometimes even 36.

Sometimes I also enjoy rolling for tabletop experiences, in which case we use 4d6b3, six times.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 04:44 AM
I usually use 6d6, more than three 6s means higher scores (I.E. if someone rolls 4 they get a 19, 5 is a 20, and 6 is a 22... which noone has gotten yet). That said, I keep swearing my next game will use the following method.

I'll take the scores 16, 14, 12, 12, 6, 4 and have each player roll 1d6 for each score and add it to it.

BooNL
2009-12-15, 04:50 AM
My latest method is to allow players to select their starting scores from a menu of arrays, all of which are supposed to be equal overall. (Or, well, some of them clearly suck for most builds. I am trying to gently encourage picking a "normal" array or something like it.)

This is similar to 28-point buy (upon which it is based, as the most "normal" array is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8), but with a little less potential for min-maxing, especially for SAD classes, since picking up an 18 is more penalized here than in point buy.

Here are the available arrays:
Close to the default array
16 * 14 * 14 * 12 * 10 * 08
16 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 12 * 08
16 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 10 * 10
16 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 09

Arrays with a super-ability
17 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 08
18 * 14 * 12 * 11 * 10 * 07
18 * 15 * 12 * 11 * 09 * 07
18 * 16 * 12 * 10 * 07 * 05

Arrays with a significant "weakness" score
16 * 14 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 07
16 * 15 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 06
16 * 15 * 14 * 12 * 12 * 05
16 * 14 * 14 * 14 * 11 * 04
16 * 15 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 03

"Jack-of-all-trades, master of none" arrays
15 * 14 * 14 * 13 * 10 * 09
15 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 10 * 10
14 * 14 * 13 * 12 * 11 * 10
13 * 13 * 13 * 12 * 12 * 12

You might as well just give them a 28pb then...

I usually let me players roll two sets of 5d6b3, picking their favourite set.
5d6 is usually between 30-40 pb and the extra set means they at least have another shot if they roll poorly.
I do not offer rerolls, unless both sets very clearly suck (+4 total or less).

Prime32
2009-12-15, 04:55 AM
I'm curious what is the preferred method of stat generation.

Point buy; 25, 28, 35, etc...
I'm reluctant to allow this one because of the min/max potential. Wiz has 18 Int and damn everything else.
I usually go with 32-point buy.

As for a wizard putting all their points in Int and none in everything else, that only happens if you don't give them enough points. The fewer points, the more you encourage min-maxing. With more points you can give them more balanced scores.

Fortuna
2009-12-15, 04:59 AM
I use a moderately elaborate system that I found on the internet one day. It seems to work. Basically, everyone gets a number of points (I use eleven) to distribute amongst their stats. You can invest 0-3 points in a stat. You can also keep points by for later.

You then roll 3d6 for zero points, 2d6+6 for 1 point, 1d6+6 for two points, and 1d3+15 for three. Any points that you kept by may then be assigned to give a +1 bonus to a stat, but no stat may go above 18 before racials.

Kantolin
2009-12-15, 05:03 AM
I use very large rolls, a lot of rerolls, and generally have a 'high stat' option as a fallback.

None of my PCs are optimizers, and I'm noting that 'high starting stats' aren't usually what breaks the games anyway. If someone's speccing out their save DCs nonsensically, having a 16 (typical in point buys) over an 18 base won't change things all that much, so I'm cool with people having multitudes of high stats. Makes Paladins and Monks happier, and permits more things to do. :P

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 05:04 AM
I'm curious what is the preferred method of stat generation.

Point buy; 25, 28, 35, etc...
I'm reluctant to allow this one because of the min/max potential. Wiz has 18 Int and damn everything else.


dice roll; 3d6, 4d6 (drop lowest), etc...
assign in order, assign by choice
Do you trust players or insult them by requiring them to roll in front of you?
And if its just a horrible set, do they reroll? What's the liit on a bad set? Yea, I know the DMG says "...if all ability modifiers total -3 or less", but what player is willing to accept an array of 10,10,10,9,9,9?:smallmad:

string; 17,15,13,12,10,8 or whatever...
Seems the most 'balanced', but I can already hear the screams of 'Railroad!!! Why are you trying to control my artistic efforts?!?!?":smallsmile:

Generally, as a DM, there is no trust. Here's how it goes:

1. Pick race and class.
2. Write character history.
3. Roll for stats. (Most of the time: 3d6 assign to fit; or rarely 4d6 drop lowest, assign to fit, for more high-powered campaigns.)
4. Pray.

EDIT: And, yes, they roll in front of me.

AslanCross
2009-12-15, 05:10 AM
I require 4d6 drop 1, reroll any single stat of choice, reroll anything with a -2 modifer or more.

Magnor Criol
2009-12-15, 05:26 AM
THe group I get to play with most plays pretty high powered characters; which is okay, because our DM likes to throw some sick stuff at us. (Making us fight a nightwalker when we're level 10, say). We usually roll 4d6 drop low as normal, but we reroll all 1s. Sometimes we'll do 5d6 reroll 1s if it's goign to be a very short, one- or two-night campaigns.

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 05:36 AM
We use 6 times 4d6b3, arrange freely. I am fine with that. I would have disliked 3d6 (too random). The amount of randomness 4d6b3 produces makes for interesting situations (but not too often).


Do you trust players or insult them by requiring them to roll in front of you?

I would have been surprised if any DM allowed anyone to roll by themselves...


Yea, I know the DMG says "...if all ability modifiers total -3 or less", but what player is willing to accept an array of 10,10,10,9,9,9?:smallmad:

The array you mentioned is a -3. What you probably meant was 10,10,10,10,9,9


This is similar to 28-point buy (upon which it is based, as the most "normal" array is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8), but with a little less potential for min-maxing.

18 * 16 * 12 * 10 * 07 * 05


How is this less potential for min-maxing? Most of the other arrays you post are 28 point-buy, but with 28 point-buy i cannot get this high scores, because i cannot have a stat lower than 8 (a rule that limits min-maxing).
So this actually improves min-maxing significantly, mission failed.

Proven_Paradox
2009-12-15, 05:45 AM
I like for my players to be high powered, mainly so that I can throw whatever I want at them (within certain limits) and not feel guilty about it. I typically pass out 36 point buy or better. Ability scores aren't what makes a character powerful, but it still helps.

truemane
2009-12-15, 05:54 AM
Someone mentioned it eariler, and I agree, that I hate something as important and as fundamental to the character to be generated randomly. I tend to use a 32 point buy. I find that allows the MAD characters to get their two 16's and the MAD player to get their 18.

But I could get behind almost any 'point buy' number so long as everyone got the same.

Although, the idea of rolling a series of arrays and then having everyone fight over them sounds like fun too. I wonder if that would work with a bidding system of some sort....

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 05:58 AM
Although, the idea of rolling a series of arrays and then having everyone fight over them sounds like fun too. I wonder if that would work with a bidding system of some sort....

What would one bid with? the loss of HP, Skillpoints, Feats, Ability Modifiers?

1 Skillpoint = 2 points
1 HP = 5 points
1 Feat = 20 points

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-15, 06:03 AM
I went well as a player with 4d6 drop worse. Nevertheless, I found players upset for ability disparity so now I use 28 point-buy, with 32 "retrain" available by quest later in the game.

32 pb- period is good too.

Deadbolt
2009-12-15, 06:12 AM
My current DM is a bit generous with starting stats. I think he's been playing Baldur's Gate recently. So he's allowing us to roll 4d6 seven times, dropping the lowest of both. Then he allows us to switch the abilities around point per point. That's just crazily generous, in my opinion.

Of course, in this particular campaign, he's compensated by starting us out with pointy sticks and tattered pants (we had to lobby for slings) and effectively treating normal equipment like magic items. "Oh thank goodness! We've finally found a martial weapon for our fighter!"

Sliver
2009-12-15, 07:09 AM
I use a moderately elaborate system that I found on the internet one day. It seems to work. Basically, everyone gets a number of points (I use eleven) to distribute amongst their stats. You can invest 0-3 points in a stat. You can also keep points by for later.

You then roll 3d6 for zero points, 2d6+6 for 1 point, 1d6+6 for two points, and 1d3+15 for three. Any points that you kept by may then be assigned to give a +1 bonus to a stat, but no stat may go above 18 before racials.

Shouldn't it be 1d6+12 for 2 points? or something like that.. Or it is just "Don't invest two points. HA! max 12 here!"

Edit: oh yeah, I like PB most, but at my area it looks like a different system became the most popular.. Basically you just put into your stats a set amount of points (Like 78 or so.. Don't remember the most popular). The stats didn't start from 8 but from 0.. But you could put it how you liked, and increasing from 17 to 18 costs as much as from 0 to 1. When I told my players to use PB one of them (wanted beguiler) started going "So.. 7 in int?" and so on asking about really low stats.. He didn't have a clue what the point buy meant, although I gave him a link to a PB calculator and even tried to explain what it is and he just "Yeah yeah, I know..."

Lioness
2009-12-15, 07:22 AM
Our DM lets us roll normally for stats (can't remember how many d6...think it's 3). We get those 6 scores and can switch points (so if we get 2 18s and a 6, we can shove the points from one of the 18s into the 6, making it an 8 and the 18 a 16). He lets us reroll the really dodgy ones. Scores under 7 are not acceptable. Then we can assign them as we choose.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 07:27 AM
Our DM lets us roll normally for stats (can't remember how many d6...think it's 3). We get those 6 scores and can switch points (so if we get 2 18s and a 6, we can shove the points from one of the 18s into the 6, making it an 8 and the 18 a 16). He lets us reroll the really dodgy ones. Scores under 7 are not acceptable. Then we can assign them as we choose.

Why would you ever go with 3d6? It would take luck or a well chosen race just to get a spellcaster that could cast ninth level spells by level 17 (without items), and martial characters are even more screwed because they will be almost unable to front-line effectively without crazily lucky rolls.

Lioness
2009-12-15, 07:30 AM
Why would you ever go with 3d6?

As I mentioned, I don't know what the actual number was. I can't actually remember creating my characters, and I've only created two.

Whatever the standard is, that's what we roll.

Edited to add: I say 3d6 because we mostly start off our characters at level 1, and I've never seen anyone start with an ability score of more than 18.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 07:39 AM
Normally I let the players roll up 3 sets of stats using 4d6 drop the lowest. They pick the best set of the 3 to use.Lately however one player has had 3 characters one after another all with 2-3 scores of 18 and nothing under 13-14.

So I let everybody else roll up their own stats and I roll his. He claims that he isn't cheating and that it's unfair I do as I do. Am I unreasonable ?

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 07:49 AM
As I mentioned, I don't know what the actual number was. I can't actually remember creating my characters, and I've only created two.

Whatever the standard is, that's what we roll.

Edited to add: I say 3d6 because we mostly start off our characters at level 1, and I've never seen anyone start with an ability score of more than 18.

The standard method is 4d6 drop the lowest, or 5d6 drop the lowest two. Not 3d6.

For Grifthin: If he rolled in front of you, you are being entirely unreasonable to take away his good stats, though you might want to let the other people in the group have more generous rolls to balance things out. If not, then it's a trust issue.

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 07:58 AM
Why would you ever go with 3d6? It would take luck or a well chosen race just to get a spellcaster that could cast ninth level spells by level 17 (without items), and martial characters are even more screwed because they will be almost unable to front-line effectively without crazily lucky rolls.

1. Why would you ever go without stat boosting items?
2. Crazily lucky rolls? the difference between str 14 and str 18 is only 2 points, that is 10% difference. Not THAT much of a difference.

Stephen_E
2009-12-15, 07:59 AM
We use roll 4d6 drop lowest 6 times. Do 3 sets and choose set you like.
Arrange set as you like. Rolling normally in front of GM.

Personally the next time I DM I'll do that (except drop die of choice) but with the additional factor that you can increase your highest stat to 18, or increaseanother stat by +1.
I like the heroic feel that a 18 gives.

But there are a couple of systens, including point buy that I'd let my player choose from.

The kicker is that whatever method used I would modify early xp based on the net total of your stat bonuses. Base +7.
So below that you get bonus xp in early sessions, above that you get less xp in early sessions.

Stephen E

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 08:01 AM
Normally I let the players roll up 3 sets of stats using 4d6 drop the lowest. They pick the best set of the 3 to use.Lately however one player has had 3 characters one after another all with 2-3 scores of 18 and nothing under 13-14.

So I let everybody else roll up their own stats and I roll his. He claims that he isn't cheating and that it's unfair I do as I do. Am I unreasonable ?

Why would it be unfair to roll in front of anybody? There is absolutely no argument that would support that, except "now only the others get the chance to cheat" which does not support his first claim.

Besides, rolling dice is fun. When a player dies i am looking forward to him rolling his stats (in front of everybody) to see what turns up.

pffh
2009-12-15, 08:26 AM
We usually do either 32 point buy or 4d6 drop lowest roll three sets pick best set. But I want to try something new when we finish our current campaign:

Everyone rolls 4d6 drop lowest 12 times (2 sets) then all those numbers are gathered by the DM. Next all the players roll a d20 and arrange themself from highest to lowest. The one that rolled the highest picks his first number, second highest picks his first number etc until everyone has picked all 6 of their numbers.

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 08:47 AM
We usually do either 32 point buy or 4d6 drop lowest roll three sets pick best set. But I want to try something new when we finish our current campaign:

Everyone rolls 4d6 drop lowest 12 times (2 sets) then all those numbers are gathered by the DM. Next all the players roll a d20 and arrange themself from highest to lowest. The one that rolled the highest picks his first number, second highest picks his first number etc until everyone has picked all 6 of their numbers.

This sounds kind of boring, as there is no real picking, you simply get the highest number.
To make it interesting, try this. Put all rolled numbers from highest to lowest.
Now take the highest and the lowest and those are a "couple". Continue this till all couples are made. Now you have something like
18 and 6
18 and 7
18 and 8
17 and 8
17 and 9
16 and 10
15 and 12
14 and 13
14 and 14

stuff like that, now you have some interesting choices.

You need to take 3 sets and to have everyone get about equal "power", number the players (say 1 to 5). And let them pick in this order:
1,2,3,4,5
5,4,3,2,1
5,4,3,2,1

This way everyone can get what they want. Some wil go for a 15/14 because they are MAD others will take 18/8 cause they are SAD.

I would roll about 4 sets per player (so 8 rolls per player). 12 rolls per player would be too much i think.

<edit> even better, just make the "couples" yourself.
My suggestion for a 5 player party:
18-8
18-7
18-6
17-10
17-9
17-8
16-12
16-11
16-10
15-14
15-13
15-12
14-14
14-13
14-12
13-13

Ecalsneerg
2009-12-15, 08:53 AM
I vary, but if I use an array system, the lowest value is 10, not 8, since we all know most PCs will dump that 8 in Charisma *grumbles*

Sliver
2009-12-15, 08:54 AM
Why would it be unfair to roll in front of anybody? There is absolutely no argument that would support that, except "now only the others get the chance to cheat" which does not support his first claim.

Besides, rolling dice is fun. When a player dies i am looking forward to him rolling his stats (in front of everybody) to see what turns up.

The DM rolls instead of the player, not making him roll in front of everybody. The player wants to roll himself, saying he doesn't cheat and there is no reason for the DM to roll instead of him. I agree, rolling in front of everybody is enough.

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 09:01 AM
The DM rolls instead of the player, not making him roll in front of everybody. The player wants to roll himself, saying he doesn't cheat and there is no reason for the DM to roll instead of him. I agree, rolling in front of everybody is enough.

So was he rolling in front of the others in the first place? or was he rolling his stats home alone? I was assuming the latter. If the first, he was just lucky...

Whether the DM rolls or the player in front of people is a non issue for me.

Sliver
2009-12-15, 09:11 AM
But rolling dice is fun! You even said so yourself! :smallbiggrin:

nyjastul69
2009-12-15, 09:12 AM
4d6 drop the lowest die. Generate 7 scores and drop the lowest.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 09:38 AM
This sounds kind of boring, as there is no real picking, you simply get the highest number.
To make it interesting, try this. Put all rolled numbers from highest to lowest.
Now take the highest and the lowest and those are a "couple". Continue this till all couples are made. Now you have something like

I like this idea. It's now on my list of stat generation methods to try. However, I'm going to eliminate duplicates (I.E. I'd pair the highest with the lowest then eliminate any leftover at those numbers) and let everyone pick from the entire set instead of having a single pair be used up when someone selects them.

Everyman
2009-12-15, 09:51 AM
The standard method in my groups is roll 4d6, dropping the lowest, a total of seven times. Then you can drop any of the seven totals and arrange the results as you see fit.

However, I would love to play a game using a "pool" of totals. In a nutshell, everyone rolls 3d6 six times. Rather than assigning those values to your stats, you instead put everyone's on a piece of paper or chalkboard. Then you each take turns removing a total from the pool and assigning it to a stat. To determine who starts, every player rolls initiative (d20). Highest rolls go first. Once you get the end of a draft of picks, you reverse the order. So it goes like this (with a group of four)...
--Draft 1--
Player One
Player Two
Player Three
Player Four
--Draft 2--
Player Four
Player Three
Player Two
Player One.
--Draft 3--
Player One
Player Two
Player Three
Player Four
...and so on, until all the results have been assigned.

It just seems like it would be fun to try.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 09:58 AM
The DM rolls instead of the player, not making him roll in front of everybody. The player wants to roll himself, saying he doesn't cheat and there is no reason for the DM to roll instead of him. I agree, rolling in front of everybody is enough.

Players normally roll up on at home then mail me their sheets. unless we end a campaign early at night in which case we all roll up characters for the next campaign.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 10:09 AM
When I first started running games until relatively recently (the last few years), I had characters roll three sets of stats and choose the best of them.

When I used this system, all attribute rolls were made in front of me or they didn't count. I never met an honest player that was insulted by this. Such may exist I suppose, but I never met them.

Then I moved over to the point buy system so that all the players started on an even keel. I've always used the 32 point buy for this.

In my most recent game I used what I call the 32+2 point buy.

Basically, you make your character as normal with the 32 point buy. Then you add the +2 to any one stat. It can be used on a stat that took a racial penalty but not on a stat that gained a racial bonus. It's one of the few (modified) rules I brought in from 4th edition.

MichielHagen
2009-12-15, 10:16 AM
But rolling dice is fun! You even said so yourself! :smallbiggrin:

Yes, i said:


Besides, rolling dice is fun. When a player dies i am looking forward to him rolling his stats (in front of everybody) to see what turns up.

rolling dice is fun, even when you are not rolling them.

Quietus
2009-12-15, 10:19 AM
I don't have my players roll anything, unless they want to. I let them pick their stats, anywhere within the 3-18 range (before racials), with the caveat that if they want a set of really high stats, they have to "buy" those with above-average character background and plot hooks. I do require SOME backstory and thought to characters to start out with, but I'm okay with the verbal equivalent of a couple paragraphs; Where they came from, what their goals are. But if someone wants, say, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 15 as their stats, I'll allow it - and have - but they have to really put the work into their backstory to earn it. Because frankly, those numbers will only ever add one or two to any roll they make. I just want people to think more about their characters. As the DM, I can adjust encounters for an over or under powered party.

Sliver
2009-12-15, 10:19 AM
Players normally roll up on at home then mail me their sheets. unless we end a campaign early at night in which case we all roll up characters for the next campaign.

Uhh.. Yeah.. Use online rollers so that everybody can see what everybody roll. No problems there, and he won't think you are fudging his stat rolls just 'cuz (or won't be able to claim that, if you roll for him and get low)

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 11:56 AM
I don't have my players roll anything, unless they want to. I let them pick their stats, anywhere within the 3-18 range (before racials), with the caveat that if they want a set of really high stats, they have to "buy" those with above-average character background and plot hooks. I do require SOME backstory and thought to characters to start out with, but I'm okay with the verbal equivalent of a couple paragraphs; Where they came from, what their goals are. But if someone wants, say, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 15 as their stats, I'll allow it - and have - but they have to really put the work into their backstory to earn it. Because frankly, those numbers will only ever add one or two to any roll they make. I just want people to think more about their characters. As the DM, I can adjust encounters for an over or under powered party.

Wow. Words can not express how much I want to play in your game right now. :smallsmile:

Is 20K words too much? Because that's what I would do for stats like those. :smallcool:

Draz74
2009-12-15, 12:05 PM
You might as well just give them a 28pb then...

The main advantage of these arrays over 28-pb is that low ability scores actually exist. I like playing a super-clumsy character with Dex 3, on occasion; and standard point buy does not offer that possibility, nor do I like the various house rules I've seen about how to add below-8 scores into point buy.


How is this less potential for min-maxing? Most of the other arrays you post are 28 point-buy, but with 28 point-buy i cannot get this high scores, because i cannot have a stat lower than 8 (a rule that limits min-maxing).
So this actually improves min-maxing significantly, mission failed.

Yeah, I was actually just thinking after I posted this that the option you mention looked too min-max friendly. Off to the editing board ...

Glyde
2009-12-15, 12:55 PM
4d6, drop the lowest, all ones in your top three are twos. Roll seven times and pick the best 6 results for your stats. All four dice being a 1 yields a starting stat of 19 because its actually rarer than three sixes. Roll in front of me, usually, but I trust most, if not all, of my players at this point. You get one reroll if you don't like your array, but you have to take the reroll.

Its good if your players like higher powered games, but don't want to be bound by a point-buy system.

cZak
2009-12-15, 01:03 PM
Hmmm.... seems the preference is toward high ability scores. 4d6 reroll 1's or 32+ buy system.

It just seemed to me, over time of running, that this contributes to the difficulty of CR estimation.
I have three players (wiz x1, ftr/ rogue x2) with pretty substantial stats (roll'd the 4d6 x7 drop lowest) started at 2nd level now at 4th.
I've been needing CR's of their level +2 on average (sometimes more, especially BBEG/ boss fight) to challenge them, even when I run the bad guys with better tactics than they should probably have (goblins, ghouls, etc...).

The characters have higher than average hp, AC, saves, spell DC's etc...

The DMG methods (pg 169) seem very tame in comparison to those posted here. Granted, higher powered characters are fun. But for how long is it fun when what is supposed to be challenging at your level is actually pretty nonthreatening?:smallconfused:

Quietus
2009-12-15, 01:09 PM
Wow. Words can not express how much I want to play in your game right now. :smallsmile:

Is 20K words too much? Because that's what I would do for stats like those. :smallcool:

20k is probably a bit much, but I'm all about developing a character as much as possible. Obviously I couldn't use EVERY hook offered in 20k words, but I'm sure that I'd find SOMETHING. The guy who had that stat line did about three pages of backstory, including around a half dozen potential hooks, of which I'd have likely only been able to work in two or three in the course of a 15-level campaign. Gotta leave room for the other players to shine, you know.

I HAVE been considering running a play-by-post on the forums here, but I keep waffling back and forth; The game was intended for the group I used to run with (moved, and now we can't really play any more), and my procrastination has seen me let an entire PbP forum die in ice once already. Not to mention games others have abandoned..

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 01:10 PM
1. Why would you ever go without stat boosting items?
2. Crazily lucky rolls? the difference between str 14 and str 18 is only 2 points, that is 10% difference. Not THAT much of a difference.

A +2 is not a 10% difference. Getting an 18 with 3d6 is one in 216. Getting a 14 is, while still not super likely, much less. You seem to be confusing ability modifiers and dice rolls.

Quietus
2009-12-15, 01:17 PM
A +2 is not a 10% difference. Getting an 18 with 3d6 is one in 216. Getting a 14 is, while still not super likely, much less. You seem to be confusing ability modifiers and dice rolls.

When you consider its effect on d20 rolls, it *is* essentially a 10% difference. It's like making any 2's you roll into 4's; A 10% difference on the net outcome during an actual game.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 01:39 PM
20k is probably a bit much, but I'm all about developing a character as much as possible. Obviously I couldn't use EVERY hook offered in 20k words, but I'm sure that I'd find SOMETHING. The guy who had that stat line did about three pages of backstory, including around a half dozen potential hooks, of which I'd have likely only been able to work in two or three in the course of a 15-level campaign. Gotta leave room for the other players to shine, you know.

I HAVE been considering running a play-by-post on the forums here, but I keep waffling back and forth; The game was intended for the group I used to run with (moved, and now we can't really play any more), and my procrastination has seen me let an entire PbP forum die in ice once already. Not to mention games others have abandoned..

I agree, 20K is a bit much. Although I tend to type out three pages as an average backstory unless I think the character will die in the first session or it's for a cohort or something. And if I like the DM, I usually toss in a few potential plot hooks. If I don't like the DM, I'm prolly not at their table for long enough for it to matter.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 02:14 PM
20k is probably a bit much, but I'm all about developing a character as much as possible. Obviously I couldn't use EVERY hook offered in 20k words, but I'm sure that I'd find SOMETHING. The guy who had that stat line did about three pages of backstory, including around a half dozen potential hooks, of which I'd have likely only been able to work in two or three in the course of a 15-level campaign. Gotta leave room for the other players to shine, you know.

I HAVE been considering running a play-by-post on the forums here, but I keep waffling back and forth; The game was intended for the group I used to run with (moved, and now we can't really play any more), and my procrastination has seen me let an entire PbP forum die in ice once already. Not to mention games others have abandoned..

Who do I have to kill to get you to do a play by post ? I have never played dnd on a forum - but you sound like a VERY fun dm.

Geddoe
2009-12-15, 02:15 PM
For the game I am dming it was everybody rolls 4d6 six times, rerolling ones. Then you can pick any of the sets you want to use. Most npc's are standard array with mooks being elite array and more major characters using one of the "hero arrays" that the group rolled. It is an OA campaign, so it is meant to show the difference between ordinary people in the world, the mooks and the real heroes/villains in Wuxia style.

Cybren
2009-12-15, 02:27 PM
Start with 4d6 drop one.

Every time you roll a 1, add a die for the next roll
Every time you roll a 6, remove a die for the next roll
You have one 10 to assign where you please, in place of a roll
If you run out of dice by rolling all 6's, the next roll you make is an 8, and then the roll after that you restart with 3d6


I'm slightly insane

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 02:29 PM
Who do I have to kill to get you to do a play by post ? I have never played dnd on a forum - but you sound like a VERY fun dm.

I feel the opposite way, not willing to do a PBP even for this but I'd definitely be extremely happy to play in such a game on IRC or some such.

Grifthin
2009-12-15, 02:31 PM
I don't mind if it's PBP or IRC - I've used neither to play dnd.

Dhavaer
2009-12-15, 02:52 PM
Generally, as a DM, there is no trust. Here's how it goes:

1. Pick race and class.
2. Write character history.
3. Roll for stats. (Most of the time: 3d6 assign to fit; or rarely 4d6 drop lowest, assign to fit, for more high-powered campaigns.)
4. Pray.

EDIT: And, yes, they roll in front of me.

Do you get a lot of very generic backgrounds? It seems like it would be hard to write a specific one without knowing your character's abilities.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 02:56 PM
I'd never pick my class before rolling on a 3d6. 3d6 is only for absurdly low powered games. 4d6 itself is fairly low powered, honestly, though it's more about levels than stats.

With a 3d6... I wouldn't even know if I could be a caster, and I certainly wouldn't ever be able to pick an MAD class, so... I mean, if I pick druid, I can get an animal companion, which probably has better stats than I do, but I might be unable to even cast, and if I pick a class with more than one attribute needed I'd know for sure I'd be sacrificing at least one class ability.

Even 4d6 would be too unreliable for me to ever pick an MAD class before rolling.

Anonymouswizard
2009-12-15, 03:15 PM
I'd like to do organic creation or the similar,but my group won't like the restrictions.

Or a roll 4d5b3, then characters can move 1d6 points between abilities to allow for some min-maxing (we only have one person even slightly like a powergamer, but that was because he was upset when I said no stats higher than 18/lower than 3 before racial modifiers in a adjust all you want game, and I did not let him reduce his half-orc sorcerers final strength to 3 and raise his final charisma to 18, although for my next game I might lay out min/max 1st level stats for different classes beyond spellcasting stats 10+).

I would always let players choose the elite array if they rolled bad stats with a total modifier of +1 or more.

Another way would be a lottery. I put 6 copies of each number into a hat, then each player rolls 1d20. The highest is 1, second highest is 2, and so on. Then players pick in this order:
1,2,3,4,5
5,4,3,2,1
5,4,3,2,1
1,2,3,4,5
1,2,3,4,5
5,4,3,2,1
Each player picks and does not replace. If they get doubles one is reduced by 1 point. If that makes them get doubles it continues until there are no more doubles. Players then assign their stats.

My current DM is going for a 4d6b3 approach, with the tandard rerolling mechanic. If i did 4d6b3 i'd use floating reroll from now on.

Aldizog
2009-12-15, 04:10 PM
When you consider its effect on d20 rolls, it *is* essentially a 10% difference. It's like making any 2's you roll into 4's; A 10% difference on the net outcome during an actual game.
Let's say the guy with a 14 Str has a 50% chance of hitting a particular target. The guy with 18 Str has a 60% chance of hitting, so he gets 20% more hits. The difference is greater against the tougher (higher-AC) targets.

If the guy with 14 Str is doing 2d6+3 damage (average 10), and the guy with 18 Str is doing 2d6+6 (average 13), that's 30% more damage for the 18 Str. (For longswords, it's 6.5 vs. 8.5, or 31% more damage for the 18 Str.)

Between the difference in attack rolls and damage, the net effect is 56% more damage for the 18 Str (1.2*1.3 = 1.56). Actual numbers will vary in different situations, but the point is that +2 means a lot more than a 10% difference.

Quietus
2009-12-15, 04:57 PM
Who do I have to kill to get you to do a play by post ? I have never played dnd on a forum - but you sound like a VERY fun dm.

I take payment in "cake", that mythical, untrue substance.

In all honesty though, I try to be extremely lenient when I run games. I do limit things by books - no Psionics in my homebrewed Vethedar setting, as a flavor consideration, for example - but my stance is "Never say no". At least, not unless it's in the form of "No, but.." or "No, because.."; If ever I do need to say no, there's a good reason, or a suggestion on how to get the same feel within the books I've got access to. Or outside them. I've never had an issue bending rules.

As to me running a game on here... we'll see. Between having picked up Dragon Magic today, and my thoughts on how to keep an adventure within a relatively small area while keeping it interesting (which has spawned interesting changes within Vethedar), I may have new plotlines begging to be explored. And having recently moved, I'm without a current group, so it'll likely be PbP.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 05:14 PM
it'll likely be PbP.

Pity, but I'll wish you luck anyways. I don't do PBP.

Quietus
2009-12-15, 05:19 PM
Pity, but I'll wish you luck anyways. I don't do PBP.

Understandable. It's not my preferred medium either, but unless you're Canadian, and living generally near where I am, it's not likely that a regular game could get started any time soon.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 07:21 PM
Understandable. It's not my preferred medium either, but unless you're Canadian, and living generally near where I am, it's not likely that a regular game could get started any time soon.

Don't do IRC/other instant chat methods? I generally don't get much chance to game in real life either to be honest (and I'm afraid not, I'm down in Oregon).

Quietus
2009-12-15, 09:07 PM
Don't do IRC/other instant chat methods? I generally don't get much chance to game in real life either to be honest (and I'm afraid not, I'm down in Oregon).

Not usually. I don't use things like MSN simply because when I DO get on there, I'm totally swamped. And IRC didn't go so well last time I tried.

rezplz
2009-12-15, 09:21 PM
Whenever I DM my players complain at me a lot for it, but I have a tendency to just go with 25 point buy. It seems incredibly low to them and I often have to remind them that a 14 would actually be considered really good irl. And I also like the idea of the PCs being better than average people, but still going up against a BBEG that is naturally much stronger than them, so I can keep the PCs feeling like underdogs.

Mongoose87
2009-12-15, 09:27 PM
6+2d6, six times, then 1d4 to spread around onto them.

Amphetryon
2009-12-15, 09:28 PM
For the game I'm running now, I used 4d6b3x7b6, with a fallback point-buy of 31 points if the gods of the dice were still brutally unkind. One of my players managed 4 18s; another has a 31 point character after rolling 12 12 11 10 9 8 7.

sonofzeal
2009-12-15, 10:40 PM
For noobs, I just like asking them: "okay, so on a scale of 3 to 18 (don't ask), where 10 is dude-off-the-street-average and 14 is hero-average, how strong do you think your character is?"


For veterans, I like 4d6-1 reroll 1's. If someone's a skilled optimizer, a tougher generation method is preferable; either removing the "reroll 1's", or forcing Organic.

aje8
2009-12-15, 10:48 PM
Well.... my group went through several different mehtods.

We basically ran into problems because I always roll horribly and these other two guys have insane luck. (One once got all 18s with like a pair of 16s. In front of me. With dice I used to roll.) Also, one of them is kinda addicted to rolling dice and thus objects somewhat to point buy.

So we eventually settled on the following:
2 sets 4d6b3, take better. (or sometimes like 2 sets of best 6 of 7 4d6b3) Then, everybody uses their favorite array of all arrays rolled in the group. This way, when I roll horrible, I get somebody else's double 17s array instead.



For veterans, I like 4d6-1 reroll 1's. If someone's a skilled optimizer, a tougher generation method is preferable; either removing the "reroll 1's", or forcing Organic.
I disagree. Higher ability scores change the game so insiginifcantly compared to any other component. (Wizard with 18 Int is not noticably better than one with 14 int. He's better, but it takes a long time to notice any difference.)

So.... I'd just rather just use higher ones. It makes so little difference so why not give everybody a slight power boost? For the record, my group is all optimizers.

MichielHagen
2009-12-16, 02:13 AM
A +2 is not a 10% difference. Getting an 18 with 3d6 is one in 216. Getting a 14 is, while still not super likely, much less. You seem to be confusing ability modifiers and dice rolls.

I was responding to this quote:
"Why would you ever go with 3d6? <skip> martial characters are even more screwed because they will be almost unable to front-line effectively without crazily lucky rolls."

He makes it seem as if the difference between a 14 and 18 (or any numbers) is huge. But effectively you only have 10% less chance to hit. It makes a significant difference, but not as much as an optimized Fighter vs non-optimized Fighter for example.

<edit>

I disagree. Higher ability scores change the game so insiginifcantly compared to any other component. (Wizard with 18 Int is not noticably better than one with 14 int. He's better, but it takes a long time to notice any difference.)

oh, yes, this.