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quillbreaker
2009-12-14, 08:30 PM
We're playing a 2nd edition game in a custom world. We've been traveling for some time and we've gone from plains to forest to desert. Since we've gotten to the desert, our DM has been pulling monsters out of Dark Sun supplements. He drops the psionics, because the campaign world lacks them, but beyond that he uses them as-is.

Incidentally, a graph of our death rate would show a sudden drastic spike. Many of the things we face seem to be able to kill a PC outright in two solid hits, and we're not talking wizards here, we're talking about fighters with rather excellent AC.

It seems odd to be facing monsters intended to challenge Dark Sun PCs, who roll stats differently and can start with stats over 18. I am rather liking the challenge, but I'm also liking the *campaign* and a TPK seems like just a tiny bit of bad luck away. Is there any justification to my belief that Dark Sun setting monsters are exceptionally dangerous against PCs created in a normal fashion?

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 08:48 PM
Plenty of justification. Along with Ravenloft, Dark Sun is one of D&D's deadlier campaign settings simply by nature of design. If the environment doesn't kill you the monsters will. For example, a soldier antloid is an appropriate encounter for a 3rd or 4th level party and they can spit poison 50' that deals 2d6 points of damage (30 on a failed save).

If you can avoid monsters in the desert then do it. People survive in Arthas by not fighting everything they see. As for ability scores, yes the default method is 4d4+4 which usually gives you around 12 but there's less variance than if you rolled 4d6b3.

erikun
2009-12-14, 08:53 PM
Dark Sun is exceptionally dangerous to all characters. Your live will be in danger 90% of the time, and being higher level just means the Sorcerer-Kings are the ones coming after you.

And yes, the monsters love eating you as much as everything else. They're hungry and you're the only thing there. Even when you're doing well, running out of resources can kill you quick.

Ashtar
2009-12-15, 05:17 AM
Dark sun monsters are wonderful things, you can make a party completely paranoid. If they fly, you have things like razorwings, cloud rays and other charming creatures. If they walk, you have everything from So-uts to hidden spiked cacti which drain your blood when you walk on them.

So, yes, Dark Sun monsters are especially bad, it's not for nothing that the world encouraged the use of Character Trees, where a player had 4 characters, so that when 1 died, he had a few others in the waiting.

And with the slow level gains of 2nd Edition, this allowed incredible and wonderfully long campaigns.

The idea of the world was that survival is Nintendo hard (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard).

Lemarc
2009-12-15, 09:37 AM
As for ability scores, yes the default method is 4d4+4 which usually gives you around 12 but there's less variance than if you rolled 4d6b3.
4d4+4 actually gives an average of 14. Best 3 of 4d6 gives average of 12.2, as well as lower minimums and maximums, and more variation.

Human Paragon 3
2009-12-15, 10:06 AM
No, the average is around 12. The average of a d4 roll is 2.5. 2.5x3 is 7.5. 7.5 plus 4 is 11.5, rounded up to 12. Alternatively, the average of a d4+1 is 4. 4x3 is 12. If you disagree, please show your work.


As for the monsters, if they are chewing you up, I recomend running by any means possible. Maybe locate scrolls of rope trick if your wizard doesn't have the spell, or find some means of turning the party invisible.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-15, 10:18 AM
average of a d4+1 is 4.

???....:smallconfused: uh?

InaVegt
2009-12-15, 10:27 AM
No, the average is around 12. The average of a d4 roll is 2.5. 2.5x3 is 7.5. 7.5 plus 4 is 11.5, rounded up to 12. Alternatively, the average of a d4+1 is 4. 4x3 is 12. If you disagree, please show your work.

You missed the part where it's 4d4+4, not 3d4+4

Weezer
2009-12-15, 10:50 AM
???....:smallconfused: uh?

I'm guessing he means that 1d4+1 on average is 2.5+1=3.5 which he then rounded up to 4. I think the rounding is unnecessary, its not like its hard to work with a .5.

Matthew
2009-12-20, 08:53 PM
As jmbrown says, Dark Sun monsters are pound for pound tougher than other campaign settings. If I recall aright, Dark Sun player characters always start out at third or fourth level, and tend to have psychic powers to boot. I remember the first time we sat down to play, several of us insisted on having first level characters... that did not end well. :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2009-12-20, 09:02 PM
No, the average is around 12. The average of a d4 roll is 2.5. 2.5x3 is 7.5. 7.5 plus 4 is 11.5, rounded up to 12. Alternatively, the average of a d4+1 is 4. 4x3 is 12. If you disagree, please show your work.


As for the monsters, if they are chewing you up, I recomend running by any means possible. Maybe locate scrolls of rope trick if your wizard doesn't have the spell, or find some means of turning the party invisible.

4d4+4 has a lowest possible result of 8, highest possible result of 20. 20+8 = 28. 28/2 = 14. 14 is the average. I can list out every possible result of a 4d4+4 roll and average them if you'd like, but they'll come to the same thing.

bosssmiley
2009-12-21, 08:33 AM
We're playing a 2nd edition game in a custom world. We've been traveling for some time and we've gone from plains to forest to desert. Since we've gotten to the desert, our DM has been pulling monsters out of Dark Sun supplements. He drops the psionics, because the campaign world lacks them, but beyond that he uses them as-is.

Incidentally, a graph of our death rate would show a sudden drastic spike. Many of the things we face seem to be able to kill a PC outright in two solid hits, and we're not talking wizards here, we're talking about fighters with rather excellent AC.

It seems odd to be facing monsters intended to challenge Dark Sun PCs, who roll stats differently and can start with stats over 18. I am rather liking the challenge, but I'm also liking the *campaign* and a TPK seems like just a tiny bit of bad luck away. Is there any justification to my belief that Dark Sun setting monsters are exceptionally dangerous against PCs created in a normal fashion?

Fly you fools! Fly!

Doubtless you have angered the DM in some fashion (did some fool utter the DM berserk button phrase "Too easy"?). It may be time to start rethinking your tactics when facing the horrors of Athas, or you could just practice rolling up new characters really quickly.

(aside: Yay for Dark Sun, and for DMs who aren't afraid to blowtorch unique and precious snowflakes en masse. :smallamused: )

dsmiles
2009-12-21, 09:06 AM
We're playing a 2nd edition game in a custom world. We've been traveling for some time and we've gone from plains to forest to desert. Since we've gotten to the desert, our DM has been pulling monsters out of Dark Sun supplements. He drops the psionics, because the campaign world lacks them, but beyond that he uses them as-is.

Incidentally, a graph of our death rate would show a sudden drastic spike. Many of the things we face seem to be able to kill a PC outright in two solid hits, and we're not talking wizards here, we're talking about fighters with rather excellent AC.

It seems odd to be facing monsters intended to challenge Dark Sun PCs, who roll stats differently and can start with stats over 18. I am rather liking the challenge, but I'm also liking the *campaign* and a TPK seems like just a tiny bit of bad luck away. Is there any justification to my belief that Dark Sun setting monsters are exceptionally dangerous against PCs created in a normal fashion?

Incidentally, in Dark Sun [2e], your character started at 3rd level, because even the environment was deadly, thus the monsters are even more deadly. Don't be surprised when your mortality rate rises.

LibraryOgre
2009-12-21, 10:07 AM
As jmbrown says, Dark Sun monsters are pound for pound tougher than other campaign settings. If I recall aright, Dark Sun player characters always start out at third or fourth level, and tend to have psychic powers to boot. I remember the first time we sat down to play, several of us insisted on having first level characters... that did not end well. :smallbiggrin:

Dark Sun had some interesting rules, some of which I use to this day.

1) Everyone starts at 2rd level, or at 2nd level in your most expensive class. Thus, your Fighter would be level 3, your Mage/Thief would be 2/3. Your Fighter/Mage would be 2/2, but have 2500xp on both sides, giving the fighter side a little step towards 3rd. I still use this in 2nd edition, because people complain about starting at 1st (whiny buggers).

2) Character trees. It was assumed you were going to die, and die frequently. Rather than require you to make a new character on the spot, you made 3 to start off with, and they all had to have one alignment element in common (all could be lawful, or chaotic, or good, or evil, or neutral on one of the axes). Whenever one of your characters got a level (in any class for multi-classes), one of your other characters got a level, with the caveat that all characters had to be within 1 level of each other (as much as possible). You could switch characters when it might be appropriate (i.e. you run into your gladiator in Nibenay and your thief decides to spend some time running with an elf caravan), or just play one, with the others as back-ups.

quillbreaker
2009-12-22, 01:39 AM
I had forgotten about character trees...

I'm spending the rest of the campaign invisible.

Stycotl
2009-12-22, 02:18 AM
i loved 2nd ed dark sun. there were a few things about it that i didn't like, such as the dwarves turning into banshees. but most of the dark sun campaign setting was awesome.

i really loved the faux mesopotamian setting, psionics, the sorcerer kings, and especially the idea of ascending to god/dragonhood.

anyway, yeah, the setting was supposed to be hard as hell.