PDA

View Full Version : Planar Binding and You (Bonus Stories Included)



Ashiel
2009-12-14, 09:55 PM
Disclaimer and Foreword
The following post is not intended as troll-food, flame-bait, or an attack against anyone's opinions of a contrary nature. Given some of the posts I've read in some other threads here recently, I believe it's important to note this here. This is just thinking out loud and blowing off some steam after reading some stuff in another thread. This thread could be thought of as one part "how-to" guidebook, one part "binding for dummies", and one part "everything you wanted to know about binding but were afraid to ask".

Hopefully it will give you some clever ideas as players and DMs alike, and open up a whole lot of exciting possibilities that you may or may not have thought of in the past. I hope you enjoy it. Also, many of the ideas here are nothing new, but just a gathering of collective knowledge and ideas from others.

Planar Binding and You
Binding mystical creatures to your will has been a staple of the fantasy genre, and has roots in many stories going back throughout history. Such stories have ranged from the classic "Deal with the Devil" scenarios to "King Solomon's Temple" situations. The concept of summoning forth a creature, especially an evil creature, and binding it to your will (sometimes for the greater good) has always fascinated and intrigued people.

Here are some tips and bits of advice for being an effective binder in the planar binding sense. Read on to see what you can do with this very impressive set of spells, and how to make the most of them.

Step 1: The Setup
Firstly, you'll want a flavor of planar binding, including its lesser and greater versions. For the purposes of this guide, we shall be using the lesser planar binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarbindinglesser.htm) spell, which is limited to 6HD outsiders. We will be summoning a succubus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus), as it is a very useful servant and is also very hard to control due to their high charisma (more on this later).

If you're not sure if your character has knowledge of the existence of a particular outsider, a Knowledge (Planar) check equal to 10 + HD of the creature you wish to summon assures knowledge of the creature and relevant information about such a creature. By taking 10, you should easily be able to assume information appropriate to your intentions.

Step 2: Preparing to Summon
You'll definitely want a magic circle against evil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicCircleAgainstEvil.htm) spell appropriate to the outsider you are summoning. Since we're summoning a succubus, we'll go with magic circle against evil and use it when setting up the planar binding spell. Using his will prevent the creature spell resistance from hindering you in the least.

You will also want a dimensional anchor spell, which can be easily added to the planar binding spell, preventing the pesky transportation abilities that outsiders often possess (such as a succubi's teleportation, or a nightmare's etherealness abilities).

Both of these spells can be used in conjunction with a planar binding to effectively seal the creature within. Also, before casting, feel free to buff yourself with low-level buffs like fox's cunning or anything else to increase the save DC of your spell. For this, Spell Focus feats can also help.

Now you're ready to summon the fiend...
Step 3: To Break a Demon
Note: For those wondering, none of the methods mentioned here are particularly violent nor painful (unless you explicitly describe it as such, but none of these methods deal damage, just debuff). This is important, especially if you're not into torture (I'm not) or are going for a "good fiend-binder" type concept.

You have what amounts to all the time in the world when dealing with a proper summoning. Before summoning, make sure you're are appropriately buffed. As noted, an intelligence buff helps during the initial summon. Upon a succubus failing the will save, they are now bound inside the circle. Their spell resistance cannot help them in this case, nor can they leave the circle by means of physical or meta-physical travel. They are effectively stuck...

Now, we're not going to try to demand services just yet. This is a demon, and you need to show it who is boss. You are preparing to compel it to preform a service, and enter into a magical contract (entirely in your favor), and you are going to do it like the wizard you are (a professional).

A succubus has a 26 charisma (a +8 modifier) which makes the opposed charisma check to demand services difficult. Once again, I specifically chose a succubus because they make incredibly useful servants (they can force information from prisoners with infinite charm spells, teleport, disguise themselves, and have a variety of spiffy abilities, not to mention they're kinda cute), but also because they have one of the highest charismas for a creature you may summon. This was with the intention of showing you how you can bind anything into your service.

Now assuming you're the average wizard. You're not much for charisma. In fact, you're too busy with your books to get to know anyone, and for sake of argument you're not a nice guy either, so you have a base charisma of 8 (a -1 penalty) which you have to beat the succubus in an opposed check with. So we have to tip the balance in your favor, and we're going to.

Here's how. The magic circle lasts for 24 hours per caster level when used in this way, so you've got a bit over a week at least, and if you wanted, you could extend spell it without problems for plenty of time.

We proceed to cast spells on the succubus, starting with bestow curse as a ranged touch with a spectral hand spell (to avoid actually touching the succubus) as many times as needed to get it to work, and choose to inflict a -4 penalty on all attacks, saves, ability, and skill checks. When you overcome her spell resistance and saving throws (and you will, given a few castings), you just killed 4 points of her +8 charisma modifier, and you just made her susceptible to further spells. Follow this up by casting the spell again, lowering her wisdom by -6, and her charisma by -6, (total charisma modifier +1), and just for kicks, the 50% chance to loose her action each round, 'cause you can.

Next, she cannot under any circumstances affect the outside world with a properly used planar binding + magic circle + dimensional anchor combo, so case lesser geas on her (which is now much easier due to her -7 to all will saves, thanks to the bestow curse). Order her to retrieve a copper piece, which you lay on the other side of your summoning room, and leave her there. Each day (remember, your magic circle spell lasts more than a week) she will suffer a -2 penalty to all your ability scores, up to a -8 penalty for failing too retrieve the copper piece. Charisma mod down to -3.

Having easily made the DC 16 Knowledge (Planar) check, you know casting enervation on her once won't kill her, so you do that inflicting a further -1 to -4 penalty on her ability checks (as well as other checks), bringing her down from -3 to up to -7 (lower than if she had a Charisma of 1).

Our succubus is beginning to look a bit more compliant. If you want, you can also slap her with a spectral handed touch of idiocy, to reduce her charisma by another 1d6, for an average of -8 on a roll of 3.5 (but up to a -10 penalty if you roll a 6).

Now, the bargaining can begin. :smallamused:
Step 4: Contract in Full
Now it is time to bargain. Before doing so, buff yourself with spells like eagle's splendor, and if you have a circlet of persuasion, or a familiar to help you with aid another, or any other method you can use to boost your charisma. Just with eagle's splendor, you will go from a -1 to a +1 on your charisma check. A +1 vs -8 looks like pretty good odds, but it's still pretty easy to get it even higher.

You are allowed an attempt to demand a service once per day. If you get unlucky, you can try again tomorrow, and the next day, and so forth. If you're paranoid about rolling a 1 on your charisma check (and letting the demon free - hey, it can happen), you can keep a magic circle cast on yourself during the bargaining, to prevent the succubus from harming you should she get free (and probably a few contingencies, including other minions and party members to deal with the unruly rebel, whom is still crippled beyond reason).


You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.
Emphasis mine.
Now, even if the succubus is granted a +6 circumstance bonus to her charisma check because the DM doesn't like you or something, you still have a greater advantage of compelling a service from the succubus. You will want to avoid open ended or unreasonable stuff, such as "serve me for eternity" or "destroy all the orcs in Faerun". However, unless your DM is being particularly contrary, it shouldn't be difficult at all to come to an "agreement". You don't actually need to give the succubus anything, other than the promise of freedom and safety from what could be her death (since you have her pretty much FUBARed).

A few interesting deals might include:
"Serve me for one year as my loyal companion and cohort, upon which you shall be freed from my service, unless you wish to remain with me as my protected ward." - This sort of thing can rewarding on many fronts, including role-playing. *: A short story follows this post related to such a deal.

"Serve me for a..." specific task, such as spy, extractor of information, battle companion, or concubine (let's face it, she's a succubus, and y'know how that goes :smallredface:) "for a total of 18 times, whereupon your service is over, and your freedom granted." (For those curious, 18 is merely flavor, as that is 3 * 6 times).

"Give me your true name (not necessarily in the truename sense) that I may call to you to interrogate prisoners or captives I present you with your charms."

I'm sure you can come up with some great tasks. Get your DM in on it with you, and ask his opinion for what he would think would be a cool deal with the fiend, and ask if he could use it to further any fun plots (but try to make sure those plots don't come back to bite you on the butt - which if you have no moral qualms about it, could mean destroying the demon before the task is completed). If your DM is cool, he won't need anything so cliche as "vengeful servant" plot.

Step 5: Cleaning Up
After the fiend agrees to your terms you can dismiss, dispel, and remove all the debuffs you had inflicted upon the called creature, restoring her to full strength and power, while remaining under your control.

If the fiend still refused to deal with you, release the fiend back to its world (if you're not afraid of it returning for vengence or feel it's the right thing to do), or destroy it, and start the process over again with a new fiend.

Bonus Story: Tarjsha the Malconvoker and her Succubi Szerin
I once ran a game with a Tiefling Wizard/Malconvoker named Tarjsha in it. She used many of the above tricks, along with liberal uses of the planar binding spells to further her own - ultimately noble - ends. She was a bit of an oddity, as once her summoned succubus agreed to serve her, she treated her very, very well.

Perhaps this was because Tarjsha had demonic blood herself and her mortal blood left her with the sympathy to develop a feeling of kinship. It could have also been because she tried to do the "right thing" and had qualms about actually stamping the succubus beneath her heel. Maybe she just wanted a friend or lover since most other mortals didn't get very close with her. Could have been any number of reasons. However, it was agreed the succubus would serve for one year, with the odd notation that the succubus may choose to stay with her if she wanted to.

This led to some interesting games, to say the least. Often the group couldn't get together all the time, and sometimes we would end up with 2 or 3 people out of about 6 players at one time. There were at least two session whereupon the Malconvoker sent her succubus on a recon mission, and turned the control of the succubus and her summoned Vrock over to the other players at the table, who loved getting the chance to have a mini-adventures playing as the demons.

Eventually, the succubus actually did opt to stay with Tarjsha and her party, because she really was treated with respect and courtesy (past the initial binding rituals, though Tarjsha still acted "civil" towards her during the time, and insisted that she wouldn't actually hurt her during the process), and felt it was a better deal to stay on with the party than return to the abyss.

Some might call it corny, or a bit "too easy" to win over a succubus as an ally of the party, but it was indeed a lot of fun for everyone involved (including the succubus, who usually got to deal with evil people the party took prisoner, which usually meant she got to drain lots of life force).

tahu88810
2009-12-14, 10:14 PM
Holy crap, this is awesome. I am now intent on playing a character who does this.
This is really cool, thanks for making this!

erikun
2009-12-14, 10:21 PM
I think you might want to include "you shall not reveal myself [the wizard] to any other party, either directly or indirectly" as part of the terms of service. Otherwise, I see no reason why a demon would avoid mentioning the location of "a powerful mortal wizard" to some higher level demon in hopes of a reward. I mean, deals with the devil have a way of backfiring, and that is exactly what you're doing.

She might not, assuming that she thinks you're amusing and likes you. Then again, either way, she'll be free to tattle on you once the service has been completed...

This is why I prefer elementals.

Other uses for the spell include summoning Celestials or Axiomatic creatures for non-binding purposes. Some examples include calling a Lanturn Archon to deliver a message for the agents of a good-aligned deity, calling a Celestial Unicorn on behalf of healing a wounded Druid, or calling an appropriate Inevitable to attack the BBEG abusing whatever universal rules he shouldn't be. (Make sure you make the correct Knowledge check and grab the right Inevitable, though!)

Of course, the standard Summoning spells can reproduce most of these effects, but you don't always have the right summon spell prepared (or another 24 hours to do so).

GallóglachMaxim
2009-12-14, 10:32 PM
This is excellent, I'm saving it and basing a character on the idea.

Oh, and you rock, by the way.

Xzeno
2009-12-14, 10:58 PM
So then, we order our succubus (or whatever fiend) to undergo an atonement spell, changing her alignment to Chaotic Good. I wanna try that just to see if I could get it by my DM.

This is a good, comprehensible guide. I sort of ignored this spell before, saying "I bet this is really abusable. Eh, I'll stick with polymorph. This looks like too much work."

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-14, 11:05 PM
For those talking about how to word it, the phrasing I use, which has yet to bakfire: When I die, when you die, after [X] days, or when I deem you to have performed 'exceptional' duties, I will release you of further service to me. In exchange, you obey my commands in both letter and spirit for the duration of this service, you attack only those targets that I direct you towards, and you take no action that would be directly or indirectly against me and mine. These orders will likely be primarily [whatever]. I would also like to point out that since we just [destructive act by the party cast in the worst possible light] and [other destructive act], there will be considerable opportunities for mayhem under my command and that all of your actions would be performed with the implicit approval of the [traditionally good class or race] I travel with.However, as much as I love these spells(and I do love these succubispells), they are quite possibly the easiest way to break the game. For a couple days work, you are doubling your power. And you can do it repeatedly. Who needs buddies, you have an army of demons at your side!

As for the lack of a line about never revealing me to other demons, there's a reason for that. It's because I do not intend the pet to live long enough.

Crafty Cultist
2009-12-14, 11:18 PM
For those talking about how to word it, the phrasing I use, which has yet to bakfire: When I die, when you die, after [X] days, or when I deem you to have performed 'exceptional' duties, I will release you of further service to me. In exchange, you obey my commands in both letter and spirit for the duration of this service, you attack only those targets that I direct you towards, and you take no action that would be directly or indirectly against me and mine. These orders will likely be primarily [whatever]. I would also like to point out that since we just [destructive act by the party cast in the worst possible light] and [other destructive act], there will be considerable opportunities for mayhem under my command and that all of your actions would be performed with the implicit approval of the [traditionally good class or race] I travel with.However, as much as I love these spells(and I do love these succubispells), they are quite possibly the easiest way to break the game. For a couple days work, you are doubling your power. And you can do it repeatedly. Who needs buddies, you have an army of demons at your side!

As for the lack of a line about never revealing me to other demons, there's a reason for that. It's because I do not intend the pet to live long enough.

Your command is open ended and thus only lasts 1 day/level

Ashiel: good guide, I'll keep this in mind next time I have access to binding magic:smallamused:

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 11:25 PM
I was going to write up something like this but more geared towards the DM and how to stop players from abusing it. Here's some things I've come across DM'ing wizards who like planar binding.

1) Don't let players take 10 on knowledge checks. That's for answering questions you might know, not recalling information. Knowing the existence of a succubus is an easy DC 16 but the base roll should only give you the creature's name and type. Each 5 points above that should give you (player's choice) a special attack, special quality, or what skills they're good at.

Nothing in RAW explicitly states this but it's one of the first things I enacted into my games when a player could, on an average roll, know the existence, powers, and weaknesses of a monster 10 levels above him.

2) Outsiders are immortal. Emphasis put on the immortal part. Outsiders have an amount of patience beyond a mortal man. They may be suffering, but that just gives them more time to think about the awful ways they'll torture you in the future. Although a called creature can die permanently, an outsider knows there aren't many who can truly kill them. Magic? Pfff, I have spell resistance. Weapons? I've got regeneration/damage reduction.

In the case that a character can do real damage to them, then yes, they'll likely agree to serve but that doesn't make them dominated in any form.

Also, big thing here guard your summoning chamber. I mean absolutely fool proof it.

The only thing keeping an outsider from ripping you to shreds is a line of salt. A single piece of hay can disturb the salt. A hungry rat can disturb the salt. A strong gust of wind can disturb the salt. Your animated broom that tidies your dungeon can disturb the salt. Your dumb golem who doesn't understand what the hex does can disturb the salt as he passes by. An earthquake can disturb the salt. The dumb mercenaries you hired to guard the room could get bright ideas about your voluptuous succubus and disturb the salt.

Hopefully that sank in. I've had a player foolish enough to summon an imp on a boat. I rolled randomly for weather and they got stuck in a typhoon. An imp, 7 levels lower than everyone else, killed the wizard by poisoning then coup de gracing him.

3) You have to be specific. Emphasis on the specific. There's a reason fantasy fiction wizards have monsters doing simple, specific tasks like pleasuring them or guarding key locations. Bound creatures are not dominated.

Another thing, Planar Binding only offers a service. Notice how that's not plural. Here's a quote from RAW


You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward.

You can't do the infinite-wish clause ("I wish for infinite wishes"). That doesn't work.

This is important because nothing in RAW says a creature performing a service is on a leash and chain. So what keeps an outsider from attacking and brutally murdering its handler, you ask? Simple. Freedom. RAW states that a called outsider cannot leave until it tells the caster that the service is finished.


Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came.

If the handler dies before the service is finished, you guess it, they're stuck until they speak to dead and tell your soul the service is done. This is why outsider's usually don't tarry with their service. They know mortals live a few centuries at most. The faster they finish the faster they can return home.

Outsiders, even evil ones, hate the prime material. They're away from other members of their race and are targets for all kinds of crusaders and do-gooders.

If you give it an order it'll follow that order but there are ways to subvert orders without directly breaking them. For example:


"Serve me for one year as my loyal companion and cohort, upon which you shall be freed from my service, unless you wish to remain with me as my protected ward."

Again, you're asking for a service not services. If you word it as "serve me infinitely" all she has to do is perform the first task you request and BAM goes home.

A better service would be "Guard my bed chambers against all intruders except the ones who speak the password [insert password here] for the time of 365 plus 1 days." There are fewer ways the succubus can subvert this order, she's bound to your bed chamber, and she serves the purposes of guarding it.


"Serve me for a..." specific task, such as spy, extractor of information, battle companion, or concubine (let's face it, she's a succubus, and y'know how that goes ) "for a total of 18 times, whereupon your service is over, and your freedom granted." (For those curious, 18 is merely flavor, as that is 3 * 6 times).

A much better service, however, it still needs a specific clause. "Have sex with me 18 times" is self defeating. "Drain the energy until death of the 18 leaders of the King's army, one leader a week..." is a better service.


"Give me your true name (not necessarily in the truename sense) that I may call to you to interrogate prisoners or captives I present you with your charms."

This one's dangerous. Fluff-wise (especially if you're a fan of Planescape), giving someone your true name is a big no no. Even moreso with outsiders. They'd probably accept death at your hands then tell you that.


This is why I prefer elementals.

Yes, elementals are better for simpler tasks. They (usually) don't seek the horrible torture and death of their captor, they want desperately to return to their plane, and they're more willing to accept orders.


Other uses for the spell include summoning Celestials or Axiomatic creatures for non-binding purposes. Some examples include calling a Lanturn Archon to deliver a message for the agents of a good-aligned deity, calling a Celestial Unicorn on behalf of healing a wounded Druid, or calling an appropriate Inevitable to attack the BBEG abusing whatever universal rules he shouldn't be. (Make sure you make the correct Knowledge check and grab the right Inevitable, though!)

You want planar ally. Planar binding is the equivalent of kidnapping someone, tossing them in the dungeons, and demanding a service. Your outcome might be good and RAW does say that the spell's type is based on what creature you called, but kidnapping and forcing an angel to resurrect your friend (pretty please?) is skating the line.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-14, 11:27 PM
Your command is open ended and thus only lasts 1 day/level

Ashiel: good guide, I'll keep this in mind next time I have access to binding magic:smallamused:How is it open ended? I included the line on "when someone dies or after X days" to keep it from being open-ended. The only reason I didn't specify the duration is that's one of the things that the DM might change. 100 year is definitely longer than should be allowed, but is 1 year? 2 weeks? It depends on the DM.

erikun
2009-12-14, 11:39 PM
Good point about Planar Ally. I'm not terribly sure about the difference, but Planar Binding is probably less willing. (I'm guessing that Planar Ally summons a willing creature, then?)


Yes, elementals are better for simpler tasks. They (usually) don't seek the horrible torture and death of their captor, they want desperately to return to their plane, and they're more willing to accept orders.
Actually, the point with elementals is that they are more willing to accept payment and leave the whole issue alone. Bind a succubus and give it treasure as a payment, and they'll try to find a way to kill you once the contract has expired. (After all, they already have the payment.) Bind and elemental and offer it something useful - such as diamonds or a Ring of Fire Resistance for an ice elemental - and they are more likely to just leave you alone afterwards.

jmbrown
2009-12-14, 11:54 PM
Good point about Planar Ally. I'm not terribly sure about the difference, but Planar Binding is probably less willing. (I'm guessing that Planar Ally summons a willing creature, then?)

Yes, planar ally summons a willing outsider unlike planar binding which targets a random one, tests its will, then yanks it away. Planar ally also requires an established fee but if the called creature approves of your task (an angel helping a party take on a powerful demonic stronghold) they can ask for less or even waive the fee.

Unfortunately wizards can't peacefully contact outsiders like that :smallannoyed:

Still, if I were DM'ing I wouldn't make an archon too cheesed off if you gave him a worthy task, were polite, and offered something in return.

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 01:35 AM
Thank you Tahu, Erikun, GallóglachMaxim, Xzeno, and Crafty Cultist. I appreciate the kind words. Also, Erikun, you're right, Elementals make for exceptionally good bound creatures. Truthfully, the reason I chose fiends - especially the succubus - was intentionally for the fact they're difficult to bind and compel due to their high charisma modifiers, so I figured they would make an excellent example of how to really lay it down, so to speak. I'd imagine if you did the same with elementals, the poor suckers would be screwed. :smalltongue:


So then, we order our succubus (or whatever fiend) to undergo an atonement spell, changing her alignment to Chaotic Good. I wanna try that just to see if I could get it by my DM.
That's a cool idea Xzeno, but the Atonement spell doesn't work like that exactly. On the flip side, I couldn't see how it could actually hurt to allow it if the succubus actually does have a change of heart in a more mundane sense (such as in the aforementioned story, whereas the succubus probably could have have probably been pegged as CE with attachment, or a legitimate shift a bit closer to CN or even N). It would be noted that she would still retain her Chaotic, Evil, and Tanar'ri subtypes, which can be interesting. It'd could be a game specific mini-quest or something if your DM would buy into it. I wouldn't mind.

Though, strictly by the rules, Atonement doesn't work like that. :smallfrown:

JMBrown, please don't feel I'm trying to butt heads here. I would, however, like to touch on a few of the things you have said here. Please don't take any of my criticisms as attacks or disrespect (as I believe you have some good points, and planar binding can in fact be pretty super if used properly, which scares a lot of DMs).


1) Don't let players take 10 on knowledge checks. That's for answering questions you might know, not recalling information. Knowing the existence of a succubus is an easy DC 16 but the base roll should only give you the creature's name and type. Each 5 points above that should give you (player's choice) a special attack, special quality, or what skills they're good at.

Nothing in RAW explicitly states this but it's one of the first things I enacted into my games when a player could, on an average roll, know the existence, powers, and weaknesses of a monster 10 levels above him.
The rules for taking 10 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#taking10) directly contradict this heavily. There is no reason one cannot take 10 on a general knowledge check to know what a succubus is, assuming they have at least 1 rank in the skill and aren't being rushed or immediately threatened. To do otherwise is effectively breaking the rules, and it is doing a disservice to the players and the DM.

Combined with the rules for Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) skills, a character with an appropriate amount of ranks for their level (that is, the level in which they can cast lesser planar binding) should be able to not only tell you what a succubus was, but likely note that the succubus has powerful magic powers and charms. The DC to know what one is and general info is DC 16. However, you cannot even cast LPB 'till 9th level, meaning you can take 10 for 19 on ranks alone. Now if you also have a few masterwork books on the subject (+2), and merely the intelligence needed to simply cast the spell (+2, minimum), you can make a DC 23 without rolling, which is incidentally enough to give rather detailed information about a succubus without even consulting the books.


2) Outsiders are immortal. Emphasis put on the immortal part. Outsiders have an amount of patience beyond a mortal man. They may be suffering, but that just gives them more time to think about the awful ways they'll torture you in the future. Although a called creature can die permanently, an outsider knows there aren't many who can truly kill them. Magic? Pfff, I have spell resistance. Weapons? I've got regeneration/damage reduction.

In the case that a character can do real damage to them, then yes, they'll likely agree to serve but that doesn't make them dominated in any form.

Also, big thing here guard your summoning chamber. I mean absolutely fool proof it.

The only thing keeping an outsider from ripping you to shreds is a line of salt. A single piece of hay can disturb the salt. A hungry rat can disturb the salt. A strong gust of wind can disturb the salt. Your animated broom that tidies your dungeon can disturb the salt. Your dumb golem who doesn't understand what the hex does can disturb the salt as he passes by. An earthquake can disturb the salt. The dumb mercenaries you hired to guard the room could get bright ideas about your voluptuous succubus and disturb the salt.
This is a very good point, and is quite true. Caution should be taken, and I probably did a disservice to anyone who read my post not detailing methods to protect your project. My first advice, as a DM, would be to set up a lair in a dungeon that you and your party cleared, and turn it into your home (it would be sort of like the lair in TMNT2: Secret of the Ooze), and set up some decent wards, and keep the room locked up proper (there are many ways for casters to do this). Truly, one shouldn't bother summoning something if something can go wrong, it's just not intelligent. This is doubly or triply true in the case of things that would be outright hostile (like fiends).


3) You have to be specific. Emphasis on the specific. There's a reason fantasy fiction wizards have monsters doing simple, specific tasks like pleasuring them or guarding key locations. Bound creatures are not dominated.

Another thing, Planar Binding only offers a service. Notice how that's not plural. Here's a quote from RAW

Quote:
You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward
...
To quote one of my favorite PC games ever, "Not to imply anything, but how do you measure up to your own standards?" (points for anyone who can name the game. It ends with "Pestering people about their mental state doesn't seem all that well adjusted to me.", IIRC)

In the 1st part of your post you broke the RAW specifically to make it more difficult for people to use planar binding spells, but then turn around and call on RAW to do the same. I'm pointing this out merely because you may want to think about it a moment.

I would note that while it doesn't dominate the creature it does compel them to obey. For ease of reference, here's the definition of compel (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compel) ('cause I looked it up to make sure I wasn't spreading misinformation) which pretty much stands as being just as effective for what we're doing here. In fact, it does mean you have dominated them in several forms, though not to the extent of the dominate spells.

It's also important to note that you in fact do not need to be specific. Merely stating that you wish for them to preform a task or mission and making the charisma check compels them to serve. Saying "My character demands the succubus to be her loyal minion for *insert time here*" is the same as speaking it out word by word in the terms of how the game rules function. Punishing players for getting more creative by trying to twist their wording is counter productive IMO, and also begins creeping very heavily into "My bard is more charismatic than me" territory, which is best avoided at all costs.


If you give it an order it'll follow that order but there are ways to subvert orders without directly breaking them. For example:

Quote:
"Serve me for one year as my loyal companion and cohort, upon which you shall be freed from my service, unless you wish to remain with me as my protected ward."
Again, you're asking for a service not services. If you word it as "serve me infinitely" all she has to do is perform the first task you request and BAM goes home.
I would note that there is only one service rendered in that request. That she act as the summoner's cohort for the specified time. This is a single service, effectively. Once again, to double check myself, I looked up service (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/service) which fulfills the required parameters.

=============================================

All that being said, I would like to note that I DM more than 90% of the games I get to participate in (believe me, I'm not exaggerating). It's true that anything a player can do a DM can do too. I, however, believe this works the other way around. Anything the DM can do, the players can too. I write for players and DMs alike, and when I'm writing I try to stick to the rules as they are. Occasionally I'll need to house rule something in my own games, and if I'm writing about those house rules I'll bring them up, but otherwise it's not my place to say such things in a guide that's intended for a general audience. It's a great disservice and, IMO, a bit arrogant.

If the Big Bad Evil Guy can have evil outsiders hunting down the player characters, serving as spies, assassins, concubines, or general right hand minions, then the players can too. I wouldn't think twice about having my NPCs use the exact same methods for controlling and binding their servants and minions. Then when the players asks "Man, where is he getting all of these demons!?", I can politely give them a valid in-game explanation for the enemies they have been dealing with.

On the Subject of House Rules
I have in fact needed to make amendments to certain rules or mechanics in the game, but rarely has it actually been to the detriment of a player (and if it is so, I offer to work out something of a compromise with them). In game I ran last year, a player used planar binding to call forth some efreeti and strike the perfect deal ("You grant me two wishes, and I make a third wish on your behalf"), and got four of the efreeti's friends in on it too. After reviewing the effects of the Wish spell thoroughly, I noted to them that I would need to make some changes if I was to let this fly. I gave them the option of arbitrarily preventing them from asking for wealth and merely be able to wish for the spell-replications and stat buffs, or I would allow them to effectively have infinite money but they would need to craft all their own junk (which of course was the more powerful - for them - option).

They considered it, and agreed that they wouldn't be able to wish for magic items or ever be able to buy expensive magic goodies again (totally arbitrary I know, but I explained why if they wanted to do this I needed to make some weird adjustments), but that they could wish for material wealth so that they could build their fortresses with. The group was (to my enjoyment) very much set on setting up personal bases of operations in a community run by them, including a wizard academy, healing temple, and a attempting to build an airship piloted by kobolds. So, in that campaign, that was what we did.

On a side note, I'd probably never get to actually get to use a genie in a game*, and I definitely wouldn't tell anyone else that that was even the best way they should fix the wish dilemma.

*: (most of the DMs I managed to get into games with were jerks or just really bad DMs - including but not limited to doing things like not letting a ranger sleep outdoors with a survival check, or rolling an attack against you, and when it misses your AC he rolls damage against the shield you're wielding 'cause you described your character as "holding her shield high, waiting for her moment to strike, as she baits them with insults and slurs".)

jmbrown
2009-12-15, 02:18 AM
The rules for taking 10 directly contradict this heavily. There is no reason one cannot take 10 on a general knowledge check to know what a succubus is, assuming they have at least 1 rank in the skill and aren't being rushed or immediately threatened. To do otherwise is effectively breaking the rules, and it is doing a disservice to the players and the DM.

Combined with the rules for Knowledge skills, a character with an appropriate amount of ranks for their level (that is, the level in which they can cast lesser planar binding) should be able to not only tell you what a succubus was, but likely note that the succubus has powerful magic powers and charms. The DC to know what one is and general info is DC 16. However, you cannot even cast LPB 'till 9th level, meaning you can take 10 for 19 on ranks alone. Now if you also have a few masterwork books on the subject (+2), and merely the intelligence needed to simply cast the spell (+2, minimum), you can make a DC 23 without rolling, which is incidentally enough to give rather detailed information about a succubus without even consulting the books.

Perhaps I read it somewhere in a Dragon magazine or it was just a houserule that became ingrained in my mind but I always interpreted monster knowledge checks as being stressful because it's esoteric knowledge. A wizard, through pure buffs and magic items, could know a great deal about a creature 10 levels above him without even trying.

Still, a roll of 23 against a succubus isn't detailed. You know it's type, name, and maybe a special attack or quality. A 21 may let you know a succubus can charm people. A 26 may let you know a succubus can shape change. Even then, RAW knowledge checks don't tell you the mechanics of a monster, only tidbits of information.


you recall another piece of useful information.

No plural there. The DM doesn't have to say "Succubus knows charm person" he can say "Succubi are good at luring men into their clutches." It's probably a great difficulty separating meta-game knowledge from character knowledge but as a player you just have to roll with it.


This is a very good point, and is quite true. Caution should be taken, and I probably did a disservice to anyone who read my post not detailing methods to protect your project. My first advice, as a DM, would be to set up a lair in a dungeon that you and your party cleared, and turn it into your home (it would be sort of like the lair in TMNT2: Secret of the Ooze), and set up some decent wards, and keep the room locked up proper (there are many ways for casters to do this). Truly, one shouldn't bother summoning something if something can go wrong, it's just not intelligent. This is doubly or triply true in the case of things that would be outright hostile (like fiends).

You're pretty much only safe in a completely 100% sealed near-airtight room. I don't like intentionally screwing with the players but if they make me mad I can find a way. Dungeons collect a lot of moisture and there's nothing worse than an errant drop of water dripping from a stalactite to screw your circle over :smallcool:

With that said, DMs shouldn't intentionally screw players over but these things should be thought about. I know most DMs don't do it so I tell my players upfront "I roll for random weather" so I'd keep a tarp over the circle, place snares and traps around the circle to keep away scavengers, and have someone guard the door at all times. In fantasy stories the BBEG usually dies because his domination over his minion was broken and the thing ripped him to shreds.


I would note that while it doesn't dominate the creature it does compel them to obey. For ease of reference, here's the definition of compel ('cause I looked it up to make sure I wasn't spreading misinformation) which pretty much stands as being just as effective for what we're doing here. In fact, it does mean you have dominated them in several forms, though not to the extent of the dominate spells.

It's compelled to do your service, not keep you safe. You can slip in a "don't attack me" clause but as I said the outsider can't leave the plane unless the service is complete. If the caster dies, the outsider is screwed. No outsider wants to be stuck as a called servant. They know if they die while called their being is erased from the universe.

The caster is safe by default. No outsider/elemental ever wants to be caught with their pants down like this.


I would note that there is only one service rendered in that request. That she act as the summoner's cohort for the specified time. This is a single service, effectively. Once again, to double check myself, I looked up service which fulfills the required parameters.

It's still open ended and thus dangerous especially to an evil creature. "Servant" is a more useful word because it implies she has to actually obey. Cohort implies that she accompany you, not take orders from you. That's the opposite of what you want.


All that being said, I would like to note that I DM more than 90% of the games I get to participate in (believe me, I'm not exaggerating). It's true that anything a player can do a DM can do too. I, however, believe this works the other way around. Anything the DM can do, the players can too. I write for players and DMs alike, and when I'm writing I try to stick to the rules as they are. Occasionally I'll need to house rule something in my own games, and if I'm writing about those house rules I'll bring them up, but otherwise it's not my place to say such things in a guide that's intended for a general audience. It's a great disservice and, IMO, a bit arrogant.

Shoot I wish I could play in a game. I've played in 2 games out of 30 in the past 5 years. I've had my fair share of trying to create broken characters and I was one of those jerks in 3.0 who tried to wreck the game by acting like a power monger. I guess that gave me an eye for spotting potential threats like people trying to circumvent the fact that fabricate creates a single item but multiple items in tandem count as one "item" (no, it doesn't and I will stab you with my bec-de-corbin-bill-guisarme-voulge if you say it does!).

Vire
2009-12-15, 03:21 AM
all this talk of planar binding (in several posts lately for some reason!) and the talk of "if it doesn't listen or agree, just kill it" logic has me a bit confused.

i'm not sure if it's just a rule i remember from an older edition, but i seem to remember outsiders not being "killed" when defeated on the material plane, but just banished and unable to form a body on the material plane for a certain amount of time. did that not translate over into 3.5?

'cuz if they're actually destroyed permanently when called in 3.5, that'd make a -huge- change from some of the games myself and my group play. pretty much, you kill an outsider, and if you live long enough, it'll come back after its banishment expires with one hell of a grudge against you and probably a few friends to help it out...

jmbrown
2009-12-15, 03:43 AM
all this talk of planar binding (in several posts lately for some reason!) and the talk of "if it doesn't listen or agree, just kill it" logic has me a bit confused.

i'm not sure if it's just a rule i remember from an older edition, but i seem to remember outsiders not being "killed" when defeated on the material plane, but just banished and unable to form a body on the material plane for a certain amount of time. did that not translate over into 3.5?

'cuz if they're actually destroyed permanently when called in 3.5, that'd make a -huge- change from some of the games myself and my group play. pretty much, you kill an outsider, and if you live long enough, it'll come back after its banishment expires with one hell of a grudge against you and probably a few friends to help it out...

Outsiders can be called or summoned. There's a difference.


Calling

A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

In the case of planar binding, the "one-time ability" is specifically "inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came."


Summoning

A summoning spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place you designate. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from, but a summoned object is not sent back unless the spell description specifically indicates this. A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again.

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

Although core doesn't specifically mention it, early Manual of the Planes fluff says that the banishment pact works for 99 years plus a day or something like that. This is why conjuration is so disgusting in the right hands. It also leads to the "chain-gate-calling" loop because summoned creatures can't summon other creatures but called creatures can.

Anyways, yes, a called creature is completely mortal and killing it erases its essence from existence since it can't reform. Outsiders hate calling for this very reason. I'd say a majority of native outsiders in a typical D&D world are the offspring of called creatures with open-ended services.

With this knowledge you can make some cool adventure hooks. Imagine an astral deva bound to a field and ordered to slay the third person who passes by. The party could kill him (a difficult task for good adventurers) or he could request the body of his former master and have the PCs use speak to dead so he can say his mission is finished.

Edit: Actually, you can return a dead outsider to life it just requires far greater magic like wish.

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 04:13 AM
Heheh. How's "bitch minion" instead of cohort then? :smalltongue:

Seriously though, I can understand the worry that comes with planar binding as a DM. I wasn't trying to brag or anything when I said I DMed more than 90% of the games I've participated in. I was noting it to assure to others (though poorly worded, likely) that I wasn't writing a guide that should have been entitled "101 ways to screw with your DM with Planar Binding" (hehe), but that I understand what it can be like on the DM-side of the wall.


Perhaps I read it somewhere in a Dragon magazine or it was just a houserule that became ingrained in my mind but I always interpreted monster knowledge checks as being stressful because it's esoteric knowledge. A wizard, through pure buffs and magic items, could know a great deal about a creature 10 levels above him without even trying.

Still, a roll of 23 against a succubus isn't detailed. You know it's type, name, and maybe a special attack or quality. A 21 may let you know a succubus can charm people. A 26 may let you know a succubus can shape change. Even then, RAW knowledge checks don't tell you the mechanics of a monster, only tidbits of information.

Well, keep in mind how silly that is, and I wouldn't advise such a dragon magazine ruling on that front. We're commoners, and while we have access to magic computers and the interwebs today, we have for many years without magic learned about (in great detail) many things without first hand experience or magic involved. I could recite to you right now at a multitude of fantasy (esoteric) creatures and at least a few bits of information about them, and it's not even my job to study such things.

Legends of vampires, werewolves, and all sorts of things that are outright fake have existed through the ages and been common knowledge for a long time. Now if they were real, eventually they would be cataloged just like lions and tigers.

Did you know that for a really long time, the scientific community didn't believe accounts that the platypus existed, because it was so esoteric, but it's fully documented today (it's also poisonous and can sting you).

Now imagine in a world where you can conjure up imps to tell you junk, commune with the gods written about in lore, and throw fireballs from your hands. What pray tell would suggest that a Wizard with full ranks in the appropriate knowledge skills, who is in fact beyond the realm of any leading expert of ANY field of science or pseudo-science, not only with access to books and documents of those who came before, but also wielding the power of magic that no one in our own history could have ever hoped to wielded without being turned into a myth, would not be capable of knowing what a pit fiend is before he would be capable of killing or even fighting one?

...

Also, I feel your pain brother. Finding a game with an open mind is difficult. I can't remember the last time I actually played a super-powerful character (I'm not sure I have ever). It's not to say I can't, or don't understand how to, but more along the lines of running into junk like this:

Tried playing an artificer in a game. It was a low-level. I happily relegated myself to "party support" role as I really enjoy that role. All the magic items I asked to craft were support based, and flavorful. Stuff like a umbrella of feather fall, a pair of glasses which allowed the use of identify and see invisibility once per day, along with giving a +2 bonus to search checks, and my "medical kit" which effectively casted CLW a few times per day in the form of potions that you create to drink which immediately vanish if not drank within a round. All the junk required UMD checks, and really wasn't much. The DM turned down all the items because he said "You should just stick to what artificers are good for. Scrolls and potions." (Mind you, he also didn't allow me to use action points to spontaneously infuse my gear)
Next game I recall trying to play in. It was a gestalt game. Instead of doing anything powerful, I decide on a ranger/fighter hybrid, who lives in the cold mountain wilderness for months at a time, wore heavy furs, and was essentially a rugged mountain warrior-man. The DM wouldn't let me sleep outside in the cold, with survival checks, even with me describing that I would dig a snow trench according to the SAS Survival handbook (which my fur covered winter clothing survivalist would know how to do). The DM calls the game fairly early and doesn't pick up again for a while. When I hear that he picks it up, I'm busy, but learn that he soon after cancels the game because of problems with the rogue/warlock being too powerful.

Next game I try to play in, I'm playing a Telepath psion who's supposed to be a people person. I built her kind of gishy, and she crafted her own weapons and armor (took the feats to make 'em magic/psionic). With what amounted to a +5 modifier in any craft skill she tried (due to her effectively having Pretender level intelligence), her plot hook was she was a traveling artisan who tried to help those in need.

She arrives by ship to a new town that is by the DM's words, looking for new citizens and businesses and the like. Apparently, people in the town act a bit worried upon arrival. Apparently, some orcs came and delivered some sort of letters in orcish, and the town council is supposed to have a meeting about it.

Asking, one must get a piece of paper saying she can built a house/shop in the town. She goes to get her paper, is told to see a particular woman on the council by the desk clerk. She goes to meet the woman who claims to be too busy to help her at the moment because she's trying (and failing) to translate the orcish letters using a translation book. My character being a linguist fluent in several languages including orcish reads the letters.

She asks for the lady to please sign her paper to allow her to build her house/shop in the town. The woman says she hasn't the time because she has to get the letters to the council room, and drafts my character as an unpaid translator who she brings into the meeting with her.

Once there, she is asked what she is doing in the meeting, and she explains she speaks orcish and was helping to translate the letters, and was actually here for a permit with a council member's signature on it to build a house/store to move into the town as she arrived by ship with everything she owns to live here.

What follows is practically the entire council mocking her abilities as a linguist, then her abilities as an artisan, then her motives for trying to help them, then calling her a liar about being proficient in several different trades, despite the fact she is literally carrying the tools for several of them on her belt. She politely addresses everyone following the protocol that was demanded of her from this small town council, while they repeatedly broke their own rules to rag on her for no apparent reasons.

Then, as a last ditch effort, she offers to be a mediator between the orcs and them since she speaks the language, and volunteers the adventuring party to help for no other payment to her than for just one of the council members to please sign the permit she needs to legally build a house/shop in the town she had just arrived in. The group moves, twice, to have her thrown out of the meeting (with her burning every power point she had on charm powers to try and get someone to please just sign the damn paper before they kicked her out, but to no avail).

Finally, she (and I) got so fed up with the situation that she left with a polite bow and an apology for wasting their time by being dragged to the meeting that was none of her business to begin with. Left the council house, took her mule with all of her junk and declared she was heading back to the ship to go back where she came from; and the DM wondered why I would have her sail away instead of going to go see the orcs. He acted a bit but hurt, as if I had somehow thrown a monkey wrench into his game, when I specifically checked with him ahead of time and made sure she was effectively drowned in motivation to help save this town, and he buried all of it. :smallsigh:

In another game I tried, I was playing a Lawful Good cleric of Wee Jass, who was more martially minded than caster based (I had no intention of stealing the show, so I was playing her as something of a death-knight / half-caster type, mostly using buffs, party support, and tanking).
This time, the prospective DM acted like he was totally cool with this concept. Gave me no troubles, and dropped us all in a game where we were apparently citizens of a country that was being invaded and started us out in combat. The character slapped her morning star against her heavy shield a few times and would fight defensively or with total defense actions while moving into positions to flank enemies with the party's fighter, and occasionally taking a swing or using aid another actions.

One of the enemies rolls to hit and misses my character, but since I described my character as keeping behind her shield and taking quick jabs and taps with her morning star, trying to keep their attention, he rolls damage against my shield because he missed me. He also added in called shot rules, which I pointed out didn't work the way he presented them, because it meant a wizard or sorcerer with true strike could 1-HKO almost anything. He said "spellcasters need to be able to have some fun too. It's not like they're good at anything else". My head almost exploded. :smalleek:

Finally, after killing all our enemies in the first combat, he went into painstakingly illustrative detail as to how all the equipment of the enemies we slew was completely destroyed since we must have totaled their armors and weapons by delivering killing blows. He also went into painstaking detail to list how many damaged weapons they had, and how much less damage they dealt because of it (such as -1 to hit and damage) if we were to use or try to replace our apparently disintegrating equipment with it. It took at least half an hour for him to list the gear carried by the soldiers, before informing us that the rest of the army was closing on the small town and that we had to flee. I politely resigned from the game that night. :smallannoyed:
The next game I tried to get into, was with another psion (a telepath again). The DM said he allowed psionics, then as I was writing up my character, informed me that due to the overwhelmingly broken nature of 3.5 Psionics (RED FLAG, RED FLAG!! BEEEEP BEEEP!), all psionic powers came with a will save to disbelieve them into nothingness, since apparently they weren't real or anything but all mind influencing (including the junk that creates fire). He goes on to proceed to say that this is because they're so much more powerful than wizards and sorcerers, and uses their energy damage attacks as the reason (since they could deal more damage than a standard fireball). His mechanics were whack too, as he noted that "you won't need to worry about it though, because it's like a DC 30 will save to disbelieve it", which meant that at the lowest levels of the game the psions would still have his imaginary advantage over a wizard (maybe) if built right, but when wizards turn into gods their powers would also be rendered completely useless (since the higher the level, the more enemies will simply ignore your powers, not even counting just making the usual saves or spell resistance).

The real ****-slap in this scenario? He was letting spellcasters use the Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargemagic.htm) variant, which is just godly by the way. Once again, I politely excuse myself from the game. If you're still counting, this makes the 4th time I've not made it to the 2nd game of a campaign. None of this crap was any fun.
One was a 4E game which I agreed to play by request of several of the players. It was a pickup game. I opted to play a wizard. Five minutes into the game, the DM was still filling everyone in on what was going on, and I was fine. However this time, the rest of the players mutinied and demanded I run them a game, which I felt horribly self conscious about, and apologized to the DM (who was kind enough to merely say "It happens. No worries. I'm glad you wanted to play at least."), assuring him I hadn't instigated their behavior . However, the game pretty much ended before it began.


It's not for lack of trying. I must say, however, the most enjoyable games I've actually participated in were the ones with my friends and little brother. Same game where the party's casters wanted to do the efreeti thing. They requested I make an NPC to join the party since by their own words "You never get to play, but we don't think we can DM". Made me happy to know they cared so much. :smallbiggrin:

===============================================

all this talk of planar binding (in several posts lately for some reason!) and the talk of "if it doesn't listen or agree, just kill it" logic has me a bit confused.

i'm not sure if it's just a rule i remember from an older edition, but i seem to remember outsiders not being "killed" when defeated on the material plane, but just banished and unable to form a body on the material plane for a certain amount of time. did that not translate over into 3.5?

'cuz if they're actually destroyed permanently when called in 3.5, that'd make a -huge- change from some of the games myself and my group play. pretty much, you kill an outsider, and if you live long enough, it'll come back after its banishment expires with one hell of a grudge against you and probably a few friends to help it out...
Unless it's stated differently in a source book, to my knowledge if you kill a creature that's been called to the material plane, it stays dead by default. Now, I think they might suggest otherwise in books like the Fiend Folio or something, but I'm not sure (I don't have all the books). I have heard a wide number of people suggesting that killing them reduces them back to their raw essence and returns them to being part of their respective planes of existance (in which case a pit fiend would have to work its way back up to a pit fiend again, if I understood correctly).

EDIT: Ninja'd by jmbrown while writing my silly-long post.

Kantolin
2009-12-15, 05:00 AM
Planar Binding always struck me as something you should be sure you've spoken with your DM - at length - beforehand, along with Dominate, Wish, and to a lesser extent illusions.

As the above is a good example of this. It actually all makes sense (And I like the idea of a worried but careful mage carefully preparing all the above to ensure his would-be-fiend doesn't get away and eat his soul), but it's not something you really should be fighting the DM over. If the DM doesn't like the idea, then suddenly mid level wizards don't know anything about succubi, or a hundred of the succubi's friends show up and beat you up, or something. Or inevitables.

Or, just as likely, half an hour of argument at the table. :P

I mean, I've played with DMs (irritatingly frequently, yet) against whom the feeling is one of constantly fighting against them to do anything. In those scenarios, using dominate is irritating as it results in 'Oh, orcs would never sit quietly in the corner and not attack anyone until the peace talks are over!'

Not to mention DMs who apparantly are just waiting for the player to say 'I wish...' so they can screw them.

But this does seem like a healthy amount of preparation, which I personally advocate. It could possibly be used to break the game, but so can a lot of things.

Odd that it seems everyone has a half dozen stories about terrible or simply poor DMs. Ashiel, I've had more than one character that turned out very similar to your 'people person Telepath', many of which have gotten me to sigh and do the equivalent of, "Okay. Nevermind. I sit and wait for whatever we're /supposed/ to do instead'. Very frustrating indeed.

Parra
2009-12-15, 06:14 AM
Could something to the effect of "obey my commands for X amount of time" be considered a single service?

Lamech
2009-12-15, 10:23 AM
As long as you give the creature a chance to commit suicide to complete its service, the service can be as open ended as you want.


you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions
Has to be both open ended, and not completable. If the creature was allowed the option of killing itself when the deal was offered as a method to complete the service... its bound forever.



In game I ran last year, a player used planar binding to call forth some efreeti and strike the perfect deal ("You grant me two wishes, and I make a third wish on your behalf"), and got four of the efreeti's friends in on it too. After reviewing the effects of the Wish spell thoroughly, I noted to them that I would need to make some changes if I was to let this fly.
The Efreeti's wish is NOT the wish spell. If the players know about the Efreeti by say a knowledge check and the DM intends to twist every wish around he should probably say... "Efreeti can grant wishes. People who attempt to forcibly take those wishes always seem to die horrible painful deaths."

Another, even if the wishes of the Efreeti are safe to use the planar binding may NOT protect you from the Efreeti nor stop him from leaving if he has some way of using his wishes. (Like say granting something one of his slaves wishes for five years ago. Something that the Efreeti told his slave to wish for.)

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies. Local conditions may include: Planar binding circles. Annoying wizards. And nuclear fusion. Enjoy getting yourself tossed into the sun.

The final problem is even if the planar bind circle does prevent the Efreeti from killing you dead while heading back home... the Efreeti still has those peasky slaves and there are spells that see the future. The Efreeti will attempt to kill you with the wishes before you get the chance to bind it.

Now, if the characters know about Efreeti, I as the DM would tell them how unbelievalby stuipid it is to try and bind an Efreeti.

Saph
2009-12-15, 11:38 AM
This sort of stuff really creeps me out. It's partly the content, and partly the amount of time put into it.

jmbrown
2009-12-15, 12:24 PM
Another problematic situation is that most outsiders (especially demons) can summon more of their kind. Although the fluff says they're loathe to do this because it usually implies an obligation, nothing's stopping the summoned demon for turning on the guy that has the gall to capture one of their kind.


Has to be both open ended, and not completable. If the creature was allowed the option of killing itself when the deal was offered as a method to complete the service... its bound forever.

The final part of all service, no matter how open ended, is informing the caster that the service is finished. If it can't do that (IE you order it to kill itself) then it's not a legal service.

Even so, open ended services are dangerous because you give the outsider too much free will. You have to babysit it constantly to eliminate the possibility of subversion.

Poor Situation
Wizard: I order you to guard the front door.
Demon: Alright. *teleports to a secure, hidden location within view of the front door and keeps to itself until the wizard takes time out of his busy schedule to track him down for a new order*

Beneficial Situation
Wizard: I order you to stand 5' before the threshold of the front door, never moving from the spot, and attack anyone who comes within sight that is neither myself, the servants under me, or those that speak the password.


This sort of stuff really creeps me out. It's partly the content, and partly the amount of time put into it.

And it rightly should. Like I said, it's the equivalent of forcibly kidnapping someone, imprisoning them, and torturing them until they agree to your demands. Sure, you can offer a reward and RAW says that summoning a good creature makes the spell "good", but imagine if I shoved a burlap sack over your head, dumped you in my truck, took you to an unknown location and said "I'll give you $50 if you help me out, bro!"

And really planar binding represents the seedy, darker side of fantasy. Nobody likes being kidnapped and the strongest willed individuals will resist you while obeying. A trained soldier is taught how to resist his captors while still being compliant. An outsider should do his absolute best to inconvenience his captor unless the captor was particularly kind or the service offered has mutual interest for both parties.

Kantolin
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
To be fair, for most 'good PCs summoning good outsiders' scenarios, it frequently becomes an actual request (Hey, would you...).

And generally, as aiding against evil is what good outsiders tend to do, this is acceptable to both sides. You don't have to be vicious and forceful.

You also don't have to be vicious and forceful if you're interacting withf iends. I mean, he said:

'If the fiend still refused to deal with you, release the fiend back to its world (if you're not afraid of it returning for vengence or feel it's the right thing to do), or destroy it, and start the process over again with a new fiend.'

That's a nice ballpark for being nice (Hey, I really need someone to... no? Sigh, please? Okay, fine. Sorry for wasting your time then. I'll ask someone else) Or evil (Do or die!).

It's just that the wizard summoning a demon to do his/her bidding at the risk of her/his soul is itself an interesting fantasy trope.

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 04:29 PM
The Efreeti's wish is NOT the wish spell. If the players know about the Efreeti by say a knowledge check and the DM intends to twist every wish around he should probably say... "Efreeti can grant wishes. People who attempt to forcibly take those wishes always seem to die horrible painful deaths."

Another, even if the wishes of the Efreeti are safe to use the planar binding may NOT protect you from the Efreeti nor stop him from leaving if he has some way of using his wishes. (Like say granting something one of his slaves wishes for five years ago. Something that the Efreeti told his slave to wish for.)
Quote:
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
Local conditions may include: Planar binding circles. Annoying wizards. And nuclear fusion. Enjoy getting yourself tossed into the sun.
Heheheh. See, I try to avoid punishing players needlessly. That's why I told them when they decided to summon the efreeti and make such a deal that it would mean I'd have to change the way the game was played to make it work.

The efreeti in this case literally has no reason to screw you over because you're not forcing it to do anything and you're treating it with respect. It is actually within the efreeti's best interest to not harm you. Why? Because an efreeti can't grant wishes for itself or other efreeti, but it can grant wishes for you. So it's pretty simple really. You summon up an efreeti, explain that you just want it to listen to a business proposition (efreeti aren't exactly stupid), and that you wish to make two wishes but the third wish will be made on his behalf. Upon granting the wishes the efreeti is instantly whisked back to his home world where he was ported from and doesn't even have to deal with handling the planar travel himself, with request of the efreeti's name so he can be the only one you make this offer to.

Now, even putting myself in the most evil, manipulative, douche-bag mindset, I cannot see a reason for an efreeti to try and screw this up. You are effectively spending a about eighteen seconds out of your immortal life (like you, I'm putting this into perspective) to grant some yahoo a few wishes, but then YOU get a free third wish. Would anyone here spend 18 seconds to get a Wish? Hell yeah, that Efreeti wants a mansion made out of brass man, or wants a higher charisma for the lady genies, or whatever. It's a wish, you can think of something. Genie grants wishes, you legitimately wish for something on the genie's behalf without trying to screw it over, and the two of you carry on business in the future. No enslavement involved. You don't even need to make opposed charisma checks in this case because you're not even trying to compel it. You're just offering a deal that just can't be beat.

(Also, I believe an efreeti wouldn't want to grant slaves wishes. That sounds pretty risky to me my friend, and seems more dangerous than an actual planar binding, for obvious reasons.)

I won't say that wish cannot get a creature out of the binding circle, but I do think it's against the spirit of such things, and has some fairly vague wording so it's open for interpretation (sometimes I wish this junk was written like MtG cards). I do however believe that it should not work, given the fact dimensional anchor blocks even gate spells, and it mentions that it blocks similar forms of planar travel to the methods listed, including spell-like and supernatural abilities. IMO, the Wish version is pretty similar, but like I said, this is merely an observation, not a correction.

NOTE: Please understand that while I note that it is really this easy (because you have to metagame for it not to be, by effectively playing the efreeti like an utter moron who actually came from the elemental plane of stubborn) I do not advocate doing this in your games unless you are really comfortable with your players being or having access to a lot of power. It can be a lot for even experienced DMs to handle.

Should anyone decide they would like to play Aladdin for a little while, you should definitely talk about it thoroughly with your DM or players, as well as the other people playing. It will break the game as it is presented (unless it is intentionally done only as humor fuel, but that's unlikely), so there will need to be compromises on both side of the screen. In short, you should probably not go into any game planning to summon efreeti or any other genie for this purpose, as a player. As a DM, you might decide this is an effective method for explaining where a big-bad-evil-guy is getting all his resources for his dark methods, but you will need to carefully consider that players could rightfully do the same thing if you are doing it, and what that means to your game.


This sort of stuff really creeps me out. It's partly the content, and partly the amount of time put into it.
Heheh. I can understand it creeping you out. As mentioned previously it takes cue from the taboos of conjuring demons and making pacts or bending spirits to your will. It can also just be a method for meeting someone on a friendly note. You could as a wizard summon forth an angel to ask for guidance or advice on a specific problem. This is especially useful if you're not sure which path is a morally sound one.


Odd that it seems everyone has a half dozen stories about terrible or simply poor DMs. Ashiel, I've had more than one character that turned out very similar to your 'people person Telepath', many of which have gotten me to sigh and do the equivalent of, "Okay. Nevermind. I sit and wait for whatever we're /supposed/ to do instead'. Very frustrating indeed.
I feel your pain as well, Kantolin. It's very disheartening when a DM continues to deny you what is rightfully within your power to do. I've never actually gotten to play a really powerful character in someone's game (I've run powerful NPCs but it's not quite the same), but I've had lots of 'em in my games. I will say that one can learn what not to do by experiencing some of these horror stories. This is one of the major reasons that I never outright dismiss something that a player wants to do, and talk with them about how to make it work in game. I also help them optimize their characters (particularly if they want a style that's under represented in the mechanics).

The game is about having fun, and I try to make sure everyone gets to.

================================================== =======
I'm glad to see that people took an interest in the subject. I might try writing some more guides akin to this one. I'd also like to hear more from others about their planar binding or even planar ally stories, and ideas for using either spell.

It's fun discussing stuff. ^-^

Saph
2009-12-15, 04:42 PM
Heheh. I can understand it creeping you out. As mentioned previously it takes cue from the taboos of conjuring demons and making pacts or bending spirits to your will.

Oh, I don't mind the demons and spirits angle. What creeps me out is the setup of the D&D geek spending hours and hours planning out how he's going to effectively kidnap and reprogram/coerce/enslave a female sex demon. It has some extremely disturbing overtones to it.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 04:43 PM
Oh, I don't mind the demons and spirits angle. What creeps me out is the setup of the D&D geek spending hours and hours planning out how he's going to effectively kidnap and reprogram/coerce/enslave a female sex demon. It has some extremely disturbing overtones to it.

Yes, yes it does.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 04:45 PM
That's why I have a plan to "handle" all of the people I play DnD with should they turn out to have "issues".

Excluding you of course, Saph. I most definitely have not plotted out how to neutralize you in a Batman-esque fashion should you turn out to be mentally unstable.

Yukitsu
2009-12-15, 04:46 PM
Oh, I don't mind the demons and spirits angle. What creeps me out is the setup of the D&D geek spending hours and hours planning out how he's going to effectively kidnap and reprogram/coerce/enslave a female sex demon. It has some extremely disturbing overtones to it.

When I planned out something similar, I just picked them because they had high spot, and could easily be smuggled into civilized places without getting my very own personal crusade called down on me.

Lamech
2009-12-15, 05:19 PM
The final part of all service, no matter how open ended, is informing the caster that the service is finished. If it can't do that (IE you order it to kill itself) then it's not a legal service. Your talking about this I assume....

Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came.
Thats not part of the service at all. If it was the service would not be completed until the demon informed you the service is completed when the service was completed. Another slightly less confusing way, of putting it: The service could not be completed because the last part would be require the service being completed.

The up shot of this is that demon you told to kill the enemy leader? It could slit the throat of your party before telling you it killed the enemy. Or just go flatten a town. Or the subcubi you got 18 favors from. Its might slit your throat on number 18. Or even better try to combine two together with out you noticing. And yes I'm sure a subcubi will find a way to tell your dead soul something.

Of course, that trick is highly abusive. And should not be used in game. Clearly RAI means to have vauge services like, "obey" be restricted to one day per CL.

Poor Situation
Wizard: I order you to guard the front door.
Demon: Alright. *teleports to a secure, hidden location within view of the front door and keeps to itself until the wizard takes time out of his busy schedule to track him down for a new order*

Beneficial Situation
Wizard: I order you to stand 5' before the threshold of the front door, never moving from the spot, and attack anyone who comes within sight that is neither myself, the servants under me, or those that speak the password.
Yeah... this is also a problem with the vauge requests.


_____________


(Also, I believe an efreeti wouldn't want to grant slaves wishes. That sounds pretty risky to me my friend, and seems more dangerous than an actual planar binding, for obvious reasons.)
Efreeti: Read this
Evil Slave: Umm... I'm not sure of the morality of helping you get powerful wishes...
Efreeti: I'll reduce your term by a day for every wish you read.
Evil Slave: Oh never mind, lets see here, I wish for...
OR
Efreeti: Hey who has questionable morals and wants two wishes!
Commoner: Pick me! Pick me!
Efreeti: Two wishes of your choice, and also please wish for the third wish I make be me mimicing the effects of a simulcrum spell making a solar.
Commoner: Sweet I wish...

Then the Efreeti can grant them whenever he feels like it. Of course, as long as the wizard is polite about it, the Efreeti may simply refuse the wizards deal. I'm sure as long as you don't interrupt the Efreeti in the middle of something important it shouldn't be to ticked. It still probably won't accept the deal to give away two free wishes. OTOH the Efreeti might assume you might be dangerous and shoot first and ask questions later; or it might just kill you 'cause it was watching football and is annoyed and evil.


The efreeti in this case literally has no reason to screw you over because you're not forcing it to do anything and you're treating it with respect. It is actually within the efreeti's best interest to not harm you.There is one more point I perhaps didn't make clear enough. The Efreeti may not be able to control its wishes saftley. The Efreeti wish doesn't have a safe list. Remember its not the wish spell. Although this should be given away by the Efreeti just giving you a third wish because your such a nice wizard. In fact, making the wishes unrealiable would be my prefered solution; otherwise the Efreeti are too powerful.

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 05:23 PM
Oh, I don't mind the demons and spirits angle. What creeps me out is the setup of the D&D geek spending hours and hours planning out how he's going to effectively kidnap and reprogram/coerce/enslave a female sex demon. It has some extremely disturbing overtones to it.

*laughs heartily* You give me too much credit. It was hardly hours really. I noticed some of the nuances of binding while reading the PHB a while back (such as the fact you're intended to combo the planar binding + magic circle against X + dimensional anchor), and that it required an opposed charisma check. After that, it was really just a matter of using a few spells and effects to lower the opposed charisma check and to make sure the summon isn't dangerous, which was pretty rudimentary (few curses, a geas, generalized debuffs, etc).

I had several reasons for choosing a succubus as the example. Firstly, they are exactly 6HD (the lesser planar binding capping point), and they have an incredibly high charisma (26), which makes them exceedingly difficult to deal with on a planar binding scale. Essentially, if you can win against a succubus at that low a level (and you can), you should be pretty much ready for other things.

Finally, the succubus makes a great minion. They can disguise themselves, fly and teleport themselves (makes for good recon), they can cast charm monster at will with a very strong save DC which makes them great for coercing information out of captive minions of the BBEG. I did however toss a few comments into the guide as to how they could be used for the summoner's entertainment, as more of a throwback to the fact they are technically demons who specialize in seduction. :smallcool:

They're great support-role characters. They can be fun to play with if you turn them over to another player (like I described in the OP). This was perhaps the most entertaining bit about the party using the planar binding spells was it let me run some "meanwhile" scenarios, where the party got to take control over the minions and do stuff like spy on a cult of mages, or get behind enemy lines and let the party in through the front gate. It was a blast, really. :smallsmile:

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 05:45 PM
equivocatin'

Sure buddy.


"Serve me for a..." specific task, such as spy, extractor of information, battle companion, or concubine (let's face it, she's a succubus, and y'know how that goes :smallredface:) "for a total of 18 times, whereupon your service is over, and your freedom granted."


Step 5: Cleaning Up

Cleaning Up
Cleaning Up
Cleaning Up

:smalleek:

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 06:24 PM
There is one more point I perhaps didn't make clear enough. The Efreeti may not be able to control its wishes saftley. The Efreeti wish doesn't have a safe list. Remember its not the wish spell. Although this should be given away by the Efreeti just giving you a third wish because your such a nice wizard. In fact, making the wishes unrealiable would be my prefered solution; otherwise the Efreeti are too powerful.
I agree for the most part. Technically the efreeti's wish actually functions exactly like the Wish spell, minus components, since it doesn't actually state anything about being different from other spell-like abilities in this manner. However, you are right. Efreeti are really too powerful...

In my opinion, Wish is probably a bit too powerful as it is. The fact that technically, according to the rules, any creature that can cast wish as a spell-like or supernatural ability or whatever can effectively create a magic item that does anything and everything (including allowing more infinite fully-paid-for wishes) with a single casting is messed up. Of course, I also believe Shapechange is too powerful as presented, but mainly because it allows junk like turning into creatures that cast spells as 20th level casters, gives you a +1 huge flaming vorpal greatsword, and arrows of *anything* slaying, in addition to anything else you happen to have, as often as you want it.

On a side note, it bugs me when people pretend stuff isn't too powerful and just try to screw it up in the name of balance, or when people are too scared to let certain things be as powerful as they should be. Examples like these bother me:

Taking specific care to render abilities useless more than a minority of the time. Examples can include using only things that cannot be hit by sneak attacks, undead who are always too high of HD to turn, preventing or construing the effects of spells like charm person and suggestion or skills like intimidate, only using creatures with a direct resistance to a character's main attack form (in the DMG it gives the example of only using enemies with fire resistance once a sorcerer picks fireball as a spell, and tells you not to do stuff like this).
Realizing there is a problem with something, but trying to "fix it" by distorting its intended uses. The DMs who always try to screw up any casting of the Wish spell, especially if it's being used within the presented guidelines for what is supposed to be possible without error are the worst type of offenders. This extends to DMs who try to twist the player's specific wording, which is perhaps the lamest thing for a DM to do.
Realizing they have a problem with something, but trying to ignore it without letting anyone know or pretending you don't. When mind influencing effects like charms never seem to work, ever. When stuff always seems to make their saving throws against stuff, especially if it matters. When someone outright ignores the effects of something like Freedom of Movement "'cause this creature is so big and strong!" when grappling you. Adding an extra 30hp to the monster because the fighter power attacked and landed 30 extra, and he didn't want the enemy to go down this fast (or adding damage reduction on the fly) and so forth. The worst offenders are those who will fudge a saving throw because they don't want an enemy to be taken out. (You better ****ing give that player back their spell slot then, you ****-munch!)


Sure buddy.
Hahaha. Apparently my attempt at humor has dug me a grave, hasn't it? :smalltongue:
I wonder if it's too late to mention the guide was intended for anyone who might use the planar binding. That includes dirty old wizards who may be morally bankrupt. :smallbiggrin:

jmbrown
2009-12-15, 06:33 PM
Adding an extra 30hp to the monster because the fighter power attacked and landed 30 extra, and he didn't want the enemy to go down this fast (or adding damage reduction on the fly) and so forth. The worst offenders are those who will fudge a saving throw because they don't want an enemy to be taken out. (You better ****ing give that player back their spell slot then, you ****-munch!)

I'm probably one of the few DMs who roll hp for everything so I've gotten comments at the table like "This guy has too much/little hp!" and my response is simply "I rolled for it."

I think it allows for better descriptions of villains in exchange for an extra minute of rolling. If I said "Three ogres charge you" it'd be pretty boring but I like "Three ogres, two of them big and burly and the other slightly less so, charge you."

Ashiel
2009-12-15, 06:38 PM
I'm probably one of the few DMs who roll hp for everything so I've gotten comments at the table like "This guy has too much/little hp!" and my response is simply "I rolled for it."

I think it allows for better descriptions of villains in exchange for an extra minute of rolling. If I said "Three ogres charge you" it'd be pretty boring but I like "Three ogres, two of them big and burly and the other slightly less so, charge you."

Heh. Don't worry about that. That's totally legit. Now if someone laid the smack-down upon your burly ogre a little too quickly for your tastes, and then you added that extra HP on, then you'd be a douche-bag. :smallbiggrin:

What you describe is totally cool, and I commend you on the extra work you put forth. :smallwink:

Munchkin-Masher
2009-12-15, 09:13 PM
Ahh Planar Binding, What great memories.

I remember tihs one time when i broke the game by binding a gorilla like demon from Fiendish Codex: I called a Bar-Igura. Now this demon only has 6 HD and isn't really that strong but he has the most broken abillity ever, He can bring people with him when he uses greater teleport. Now think of that, infinite greater teleport at level 9. We stole everything in the entire metropolis we were in except for the kitchen sink, with the help of out good friend invisibility.

Ohh and we went to the moon. Literally.

It didn't work out so well.

Raendyn
2010-06-21, 03:47 PM
So then, we order our succubus (or whatever fiend) to undergo an atonement spell, changing her alignment to Chaotic Good. I wanna try that just to see if I could get it by my DM.

This is a good, comprehensible guide. I sort of ignored this spell before, saying "I bet this is really abusable. Eh, I'll stick with polymorph. This looks like too much work."

can this work to creatures with the evil subtype? not even sanctify from BoED can't work with evil outsiders....

hamishspence
2010-06-21, 03:52 PM
the StW spell in BoED doesn't say it can't work on Outsider [evil]- but the Sanctified creature template in the back of the book says it can't be applied to them.

So it could be interpreted several ways- one of which might be- all effects of the spell are applied, except the template.