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Test Of Spite
2009-12-14, 09:55 PM
Hello, I am an angry man.
Perhaps you too, are angry? Bitter? Seeking some sort of vindication in a large world spiraling oddly away from you?

~Jake, Summer, 09


Crack open that tube full of dice.
Like the similarly named Test of Might run by the altogether-better-person Akuma, this is a thread about explorations of the further edges of game performance. We will be running a slightly altered rules set, for which I have reserved a post below this one. The crux of the challenge is that you are presented with a dungeon and must navigate through its preliminary challenges to kill each other. I hear this is a popular past-time.



Old Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6885289#post6885289)
Oldest thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644)

First, players must survive a 1v1 or 2v2 match against a willing opponent.
Hence the name, test of spite. Your punishment for seeking satisfaction through violence will become apparent thereafter.

Surviving players will be released into the PvP dungeon section which exists as a subset of Ravenloft. There, they must make the necessary allegiances, preparations, or other decisions regarding who they will work with in an effort to reach the center of the arena where they will be tested against each other in mortal combat. The Dark Powers that run this arena are not amused by attempts to throw the game, however, so be prepared for serious OOC bargaining to get your ingame toon eaten by the hounds of tindalos. Naturally, warnings will be provided.

Upon navigation of the dungeon, you will reach the final arena, where matches may be 1v1 or 2v2 as negotiated in game. Victory will register you as the current incumbents, and you may rest before facing the onslaught of other people who complete the dungeon. Three victories allows you to escape Ravenloft, and with it, the arena.


Sign-ups can be done here, but primarily this is a thread for the comments and questions.
Starting level is 13th, with full EWL as per 135 in the DMG.
All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.
Infinite loops are permitted to trigger precisely once, after which your character will be killed by the hounds of tindalos.
Make sure it was worth it.
Those who get an infinite loop past me during character creation will receive special mention in the halls of honor.
Attempts to use the infinite loop in either the final arena or the starting arena will result in summary consumption by hungry hungry hound dogs, but you will receive a commendation in the halls of honor, though your opponent will be counted as victorious if it is a 1v1.


A quick summary of the tier ranking system, colloquially..


Here's the ToS Tier System as I remember it:

Tier -2: Pun Pun

Tier -1: An unbeatable build.

Tier 0: An effectively unbeatable build, though it can actually be beaten by the higher Tiers.

Tier .5: A build that can probably only be beaten if you have specifically prepared for it. Example: Sofawall's Cube build.

Tier 1: A build that has many effective tricks, insanely high defenses, and can end most encounters in a round. Example: A very effectively played Batman wizard.

Tier 2: Multiple great tricks and great defenses. Where I usually build for. Example: A CoDzilla or a Warmarked.

Tier 3: A build that either has one great trick or a lot of moderately good ones, while still having stellar defenses. Example: A well made Warblade, a good tripper, or a buff focused Sorcerer.

Tier 4: A build that, while still having a trick or two, has fallen very short on the defensive side of the line or has great defenses without being able to defeat an opponent on its own very easily. Example: A Charging Fighter or a VoP Monkadin.

Tier 5: A build that, while attempting to be optimized, still has neither good defenses nor a worthwile trick. Example: A typical fighter.

Tier 6: A build that *twitch* chooses feats for flavor reasons *twitch*



Submit Your Sheet For Approval (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=46222)
Sign Up && Match-Making (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AodLcxsM7Nx0dFZwQmtxUTNXQllSN2dIX01waElaR 0E&hl=en)
Dungeon Waiting List (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNjBnNnJuY3I2Mg&hl=en)

Test Of Spite
2009-12-14, 09:56 PM
Arena Format
There are three major choices involved in the opening arena segment. These are on a match-by-match basis.
|_____________________________________|

First:


You may opt to use the swapping terrain placement schema used by most war-games to generate an arena.
You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have a standard and known arena used.

Second:

You may opt to have no buffs active.
You may opt to have all-day buffs active, with All-Day buffs being those with longer than 12 hours duration.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.
You may opt to ask three questions, specific, as per Contact Other Plane, about the opposition, and prepare all-day buffs accordingly. This option is not recommended. It is provided for the sake of completeness.
Third:

You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures.
You may opt to disallow the above during the buff rounds.
You may opt to allow the above during buff rounds and declare the allowance thereof.
Finally:

Each set of opposition may come to a consensus about these options.
You may yield one set of choices at random to the opposition.
You may place your fate in my terrible clutches.



3.51 Rules Updates
The following are the character generation rules for the Test of Spite.
Help with optimization is available. Please do not be intimidated by the list of changes
|_____________________________________|
You begin with 78k XP, sufficient to place your level at 13th.
HP is Max for first level, then average HP.
No Fractional BAB or Saves
Up to 1 Trait and 2 flaws
No Action Points.
No LA above +1.
28 Point buy.

Any XP spent is deducted from your total.
As such, your total class levels will reflect this.
XP will be gained during your stay
LA Buy-off allowed.



3.51 Fix and Ban List

The Great Rules:

Per round, no more than the following is permitted:

Two full round actions Or three full attacks per character
Three Standard actions per character
Three Move actions per character
Two Swift actions per character
Thirty Free actions per character
Immediates count against your maximum of swifts


Per round, no more than the following is permitted per minion, familiar, or companion:

One full round action.
Two Standard actions.
Two Move actions.
One Swift actions.
Ten Free actions.
Immediates count against the maximum of swifts



General :


You may gain membership benefits from only one organization with mechanical benefits. If the organization possesses an Affiliation score mechanic, you are treated as a member of rank two (2).
Aasimar and similarly all native outsiders do not grant weapon proficiencies for the purposes of class qualification.
Rebuilding rules are banned as variants.
Greensnake Naga's telepathy is considered to have a 30 foot range for the purposes of mindsight.
Dragonlance's dragonspawn templates are banned.
Ghostwalk's LA+0 ghost template is banned, unless your opponent is also using it.
Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.
All forms of awaken are banned.
Splitting and similar effects copy only the item, not positive effects currently on it.
Due to the ongoing interference of the Dark Powers, divinely granted templates are not permitted in ravenloft, and all who have them are stripped of them, with the exclusion of saint which they rightly find hilarious.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Kobolds may not qualify for lore-drake.
Dusk Giants do not exist.
Gem Magic, from Magic of Faerun, is banned.
Each character may use only one magical location.
Mention of the sarrukh should be followed by your home address ;)
Shambling mounds do not exist.
You may not order a creature or player to fail a save in any fashion.
Initiate of Mystra is banned. Really. Really. Banned.
Pazuzu does not exist.
You may have one clone, and it must be on Ravenloft. Clones are 14k.
The Far Realms do not exist.
Creation of hive-minds through any mechanism is banned.
Time Travel is soft-banned, in that where-ever you travel to, the hounds will be there. Temporal regression is permitted, but long chains ( x>2 ) are not. Time Hop and similar are permitted.
Faustian Pacts, as described in FCII, are banned.
Bonus hit dice are not counted when leveling up or retraining, nor are they counted by Psychic Reformation and similar effects.
Lost levels restored by Restoration and similar effects must be in the same class or classes in which they were originally taken.



Source Material


Iron Kingdoms material is allowed on a case by case basis.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazine are banned.
Serpent Kingdoms is approval-only material.
Savage Species is approval-only material.
Stronghold Builder's Guide is banned.



Unearthed Arcana :

The following takes the form of an allow list, rather than a ban list.

Flaws and traits.
Variant classes.
Additional Favored Class feat.
Racial paragons.
LA Buy-off.
I may have forgotten things previously allowed. Please ask if you are curious.



q_____________________________________p

Base Classes :


Fighter is banned, excluding dungeoncrasher.
Erudite is banned.
Domain wizards are banned.
Monk is full-bab.
Unarmed swordsage is legal.
All druids are aspect druids as per UA. In addition, all sources of wild shape are banned.
Swordsages gain adaptive style as a bonus feat at level 4. Swordsages also get 6x skill points at first level, despite it being a clear error. Just too cool to take away.
Clerics are not alignment locked.
All clerics are cloistered clerics.
Artificers may only shuffle bonuses between enhancement, insight, and competence.
1d2 crusaders do not exist.
Archivists are limited to the following sources for spells known at start:
Domain lists, Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Adept.
Other divine casters by permission

Banned:
Runescarred Berserker list
Arcane spells turned into divine scrolls by means not covered or permitted by the above.

Focused specialists do not exist.
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.
Prepared casters should buy every spell they expect to need. Getting more will be ludicrously difficult.



Prestige Classes :


Subverted Psion is banned.
Ultimate Magus cannot progress the same class twice.
If it would do so at a given level, it offers only one level of progress instead. Consider this to be the general rule in similar cases.
Vermin Lord is banned.
Spelldancer is banned.
Walker in the Wastes is banned.
The Magic of Hunger secret of the Black Robes Wizard of High Sorcery is banned.
Arcane Archers may use crossbows.
Rainbow Servants are a 8/10 casting class that loses a caster level at first and second.
Planar Shepherd is banned.
Master of Many Forms is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Master Transmogrist is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Ruby Knight Vindicators may gain only one additional swift action per turn.
Tainted scholar and tainted sorcerer are both banned until a suitable fix is suggested.
Dweomerkeeper is banned.
Cancer mage is banned.
Incantatrix is banned.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils duplicate the effect of layers, rather than the effects of the whole spell, and are thus subject to dispelling and AMF. Beyond this, the class is unchanged.



Feats :


Epic feats are banned.
Retraining is not permitted except in extraordinary cases where a feat becomes useless.
Lightning Maces is now banned.
Use of body fuel is exhibition only and requires an announce.
Sanctum Spell does not apply for determining if you can affect a spell with items or spells.
Battle Jump is banned.
Adaptive style refreshes your maneuvers.
Mortalbane does not allow stacking uses. Arcane strike does not allow stacking uses. This should be considered precedent.
Item familiars are banned.
Greenbound Summoning is banned.
Mercantile background is banned.
Uncanny forethought is banned.
Arcane thesis affects only the first applied metamagic.
Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd, and Dragon Cohort are banned. Similar or derivative effects are also banned.
Legendary locations that grant feats are unilaterally excluded from serving as pre-requisites. You may only use one per character.
Extra spell is not list specific, but may be taken precisely once and with DM approval.
Reserves of Strength is banned.
Rapid-strike is banned.
Craft Contingent Spell has double XP costs, these cannot be reduced, and may produce only three contingent spells at a time. The conditions must be as or more exact than contingency normally requires, but no proofing assistance will be offered.
Twin Spell and Twin Power are banned.



Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers


Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
Polymorph, alter self, metamorphosis, and all derivatives not specifying a single shape are likewise banned.
Genesis is banned.
Metaconcert is banned.
Use of Body Outside Body must be announced clearly and is exhibition only.
Use of When Two Become One will see you eaten by the hounds.
Beastland Ferocity is banned, being useless except in conjunction with delay death.
Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.
Consumptive Field and its derivatives are now banned pending a rewrite.
Forced Dream is banned.
Love's Pain is banned.
Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned.
Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned.
Command Undead is banned.
Psionic Lion's Charge now has a duration of one round as intended, instead of the ridiculously stupid instantaneous duration it possessed.
Iron Heart Surge is banned pending a re-write.
Mirror Move is banned.
Explosive runes is banned.
Gate can no longer be used to call or summon.
Energy Transformation Field is banned.
Epic spells are banned.
Leech Ghost Skill is banned.
SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.
Embrace\Shun The Dark Chaos is permitted, but cannot be done during character creation. If you can pull it off in the dungeon or the arenas, my commendations await.
Glyph Seals do not accept personal range spells.
There are no free wishes.
Starmantle Cloak and evasion do not stack.
Contingency cannot be cast from a ring of spell storing.
For any ability which creates a contingent effect: All choices normally made at the completion of casting/manifesting/etc must be made when the contingency is created.
Ice assassin's material components cannot be obviated in any fashion.
Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.
Dweomer of Transference only converts spells cast by its caster.
Fusion is banned.
The spell Power Leech is banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Fimbulwinter is banned.
Mindblank and all derivatives are subject to a caster level check at a penalty dependent on available information.
The Locate Cities trick does not work.
Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in ravenloft.
Contact Other Plane and similar effects that use a consultation with a higher power always reach the Dark Powers instead of the intended target. While ungood, this does not negate the spells.
Acorn of Far Travel is banned.
All effects that grant rounds of effective time, such as Time Stop, Temporal Acceleration, and Shadow Time, are banned.
Celerity's dazing effect cannot be obviated even by immunity.
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once per battle per player.



Metamagic and Metapsionics


Persistant Spell's range requirements can not be obfuscated by any means, including but not limited to Ocular Spell, Reach spell, or any variant thereof. In the case of exhibition matches, Earthbound spell may be allowed.
Touch range is not a fixed range.
Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method. Metamagic effects that have a +0 adjustment are unaffected by this.
Split psionic ray must have a target for each new ray it ends up producing.
Alert me if you plan to use Linked Power, and explain why.



Magic Items and Crafting


Magic items are capped at caster level 20th.
Spell Completion and Spell Trigger items can not have metamagic effects unless you are buying a specific printed example.
Dust of sneezing and choking is banned.
Dust of Disappearance is banned due to poor wording.
Items may not be bought at a price reduction. This does not apply to crafting but does prohibit writing a friendly crafter into your backstory, the purchase of partially charged items, the use of curses or item flaws, and similar.
The Ring of the Beast is banned.
Vorpal is banned.
Aptitude weapons are banned.
Creation costs are:

(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65
Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC. This includes traps.
Custom runestaves, weapons, armor, shields, scrolls, scepters, and full-charged wands are in exception to this rule. Staffs are not.
Psionic items may be customized on an approval-only basis, as some of the rules effectively demand it.
Attempts to get a custom item other than the above exceptions will likely be disapproved, but if you aren't sure, please, ask anyway.
Amulet of second chances is banned.
Thoughtbottle is banned.
Candle of Invocation is not banned, but will get you eaten by the Hounds.
Nightsticks do not stack.
Feathered Wings from Fiend Folio have no associated ill effects, having proved too valuable to the meta-game.
Scrolls of higher than 9th level do not exist.
Amulet of Peace is banned.
Power Link Quori Shards are banned.
Turn attempts or similar from multiples of the same item are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.



Skills :


Caster Level from UMD checks caps at 20 for our purposes.
Diplomancy and its ilk are GM-adjudicated rather than running off the provided tables.
Seduction is banned for reasons of verisimilitude.
Intimidate and its results are not mind-affecting.




Good luck!

Submit a new problem? (https://supr.fogbugz.com/default.asp?pg=pgPublicEdit)




Submitted Sheets are reviewed by:
Sofawall
T.G. Oskar
Aethernox
IthilanorStPete
PhoenixRivers
Aharon
Aracor
Claudius Maximus

Test Of Spite
2009-12-14, 09:58 PM
The Hall Of Honor

Vader fell to the ineffably accurate Sheriff of Moddingham.
Phoenix Rivers made Olo go Ni-Infinite on his own face (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457).
Talic surrendered in the face Sallera's persistence, and fled as the fog claimed Sallera.
Aethernox was struck down by Saph's mastery of the Sublime Way
Yahzi defeated Olo, though many of his skeletons were crushed.
In a rematch, a burst of fire from the downed Olo brought Yahzi to a burning fate.
Imperial Specter conceded after Imhotep collapsed the arena by disintegrating load-bearing columns.
Level 1 sharnian and Olo fought it out, but magic was no match for arrows.
After a slight mishap, Olo faced Memalato and Water Penguin 43 and brought them under his control.
9mm cut down Lv1 Sharnian with swings that he couldn't see.
Olo got block-rocked by Talic's hulking hurler.

Kabol, by Lvl 1 Sharnian was the first character to force a run-time ban.
Alita, by Jemini Zero, keeps getting broken and rebuilt. JZ is commended for forcing three separate run-time bans.
9MM forced a pre-match nerf of splitting.
Shoutz to all the people who helped prove that Spelldancer needed a ban!





Dungeon Entrance, Instance One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6326126#post6326126)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6396497#post6396497)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Three (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138440)

ToS: The Monkening, a special dungeoncrawl. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)



Battles:

Early fights:
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
Adumbration vs. Imperialspectre. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117753)
Adumbration vs. Ratflail. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115754)
aethernox vs. Ratflail (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115745)
imperialspectre vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117703)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Yahzi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627)
Pharaoh's fist and wykydtron vs. ozgun92 and Melamoto! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114173)
Sallera vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175)

Exhibitions
9mm vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127551)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130864)
9mm vs. Olo Demonsbane, a must read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6843840#post6843840)
9mm vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135213)
Adumbration vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136223)
Adumbration vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7651905)
Adumbration vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8026244)
Adumbration vs. Sofawall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147012)
Adumbration vs. Superglucose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141623)
Adumbration vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139741)
Aecus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135295)
aethernox vs. Claudius Maximus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128140)
aethernox vs. IthilinorStPete (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128073)
aethernox vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119337&)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125709)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132884)
aethernox vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127309)
aethernox vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139200)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118659&)
aethernox vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125833)
aethernox vs. Signmaker again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138478)
Anklebite vs. Moonlitdreams (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7899348)
Arakune vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141083)
Claudius Maximus vs. Gaurd Juris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124885)
Claudius Maximus vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122876&)
Claudius Maximus vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122296&)
Claudius Maximus vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129637)
Claudius Maximus vs. Master_Rahl22 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123870&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120402&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120613&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120960&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121695&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133191)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane the fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143558)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125362)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126103)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138731)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146766)
Claudius Maximus vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120575&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135220)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7536155)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric once more (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138631)
Claudius Maximus vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130886)
Claudius Maximus vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139014)
Gaurd Juris vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123281)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122979)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125288)
Gaurd Juris vs. mikethepoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123001&)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135035)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135751)
IthilanorStPete vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132948)
IthilanorStPete vs. Mushroom Ninja (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127413)
IthilanorStPete vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128237)
JeminiZero vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119488&)
JeminiZero vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119563&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119413&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119985&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122378&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane the fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126382)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane once again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123286&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131071)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131087)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119279&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119963&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121406)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492)
Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125227)
Master_Rahl22 vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135453)
Melamoto vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139713)
Melamoto vs. Olo Demonsbane vs. waterpenguin43 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120404&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120599&)
Moonlitdreams vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7905495)
Moonlitdreams vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144473)
Mushroom Ninja vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127408)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135267)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139756)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Superglucose (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7872576)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Superglucose again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144001)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134869)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139464)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127293)
Olo Demonsbane vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138376)
Pharaoh's Fist vs. ShneekyTheLost (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125885)
PhoenixRivers vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143733)
PhoenixRivers vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=138199)
PhoenixRivers vs. theterran again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147915)
ShneekyTheLost vs. T.G. Oskar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143260)
SurlySeraph vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139872)
Tanaric vs. theterran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139861)

Qualifiers
Amphetryon vs. Glimbur (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136935)
Claudius Maximus and Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers and Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492&)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&)



Arena Referees are:
Sofawall
ImperialSpectre
Claudius Maximus


We honor Talic's contributions to the health of the forums. Hail the victorious fallen!

Amphetryon
2009-12-14, 09:59 PM
Part Deux. :smalltongue:

Test Of Spite
2009-12-14, 09:59 PM
Announcements And Resources









Fighter is replaced by War-marked (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQy814N0Rw6OZGdzNHBid3dfM2NjbXo5Mmcy&hl=en) which uses these marks (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0Aclf_LtvhqMlZGhwbTc4OTlfNTYyNnh2dmM1&hl=en)

Paladin is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfMTAycmpwdnpxY2c&hl=en)

Barbarian is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzFkNjl3ajMzYg&hl=en)

Monk is updated (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNzJnNWpkZDJ2cA&hl=en)


These updates are optional but very strongly recommended.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-14, 10:00 PM
Here is a list of popular arena maps. You are not restricted to these in any fashion, and may propose your own for your matches, subject to your opponent's approval.

Columns:

{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L
1||||||||||||
2|
3|||C|C|||||C|C||
4|||C|C|||||C|C||
5||||||||||||
6|
7|
8||||||||||||
9|||C|C|||||C|C||
10|||C|C|||||C|C||
11|
12|||||||||||[/table]

Brought to the ToS by Saph, this map originated in the Test of Might. The height of the arena and presence of doors and other features is variable, and should be agreed upon. The original specifications were:


Squares are 5 feet each. C represents column positions, running floor to ceiling. Walls and columns are stone, with coral accents. There are exits at F1/G1 and F12/G12, not that it matters unless you want to retreat. Ceiling is 30 feet high. There's a 10' square tunnel at F6-G6-F7-G7 that goes up another 30 feet. Light is normal.

Columns II:

{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L
1||||||||||||
2|
3|||C|C|||||C|C||
4|||C|C|||||C|C||
5||||||||||||
6|
7|
8||||||||||||
9|||C|C|||||C|C||
10|||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||
11||||||||||C
12||||||||||C||
13|
14|||C|
15|||C|||||||||
16|||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||
17|||C|C|||||C|C||
18|
19||||||||||||
20|
21||||||||||||
22|||C|C|||||C|C||
23|||C|C|||||C|C||
24|
25|||||||||||[/table]

Created by Doc Roc when concerns were raised over the small size of the first Columns map, this one provides more space and cover opportunities. Once again, an agreement should be struck on the details of this map.

Columns II - Jumbo Edition:

{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L|M|N|O|P|Q|R|S|T|U|V|W|X
1||||||||||||
2|
3
4|
5|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
6|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
7|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
8|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
9|||
10|||||
11|||||||||
12||||||||||
13|
14|||
15|
16|
17|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||||
18|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||||
19|||||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||||
20|||||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||||
21|||||||||||||||||||C|C||
22|||||||||||||||||||C|C||
23|||||||||||||||||||C|C||
24|||||||||||||||||||C|C||
25|
26|
27|||||C|C||
28|||||C|C||
29|||||C|C||
30|||||C|C||
31|||||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||||
32|||||C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C|C||||
33|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||||
34|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||||
35||||||||||||
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40||||||||||||
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43|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
44|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
45|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
46|||||C|C|C|C|||||||||C|C|C|C||
47||||||||||||
48||||||||||||
49||||||||||||
50||||||||||||[/table]

I created this one when I needed a map in which I could maneuver a Gargantuan creature. It's the same as Columns II, but doubled in all dimensions.

River Map:
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/4343/arena2i.gif

This map originated in the Arena Tournament. This has proven to be one of the most popular arena choices in the Test of Spite.

Blank Map:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/959/blandarena.png

Nothing really of note here. I once again think it was Talic who first posted it.

More may be added later.

Eldrys
2009-12-14, 10:11 PM
I am interested in playing in ToS. I had one question before I made my sheet, if I play an artificer, what about craft points? will I gain them retroactively or do I just gain the number I would normally have at 13th level?

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 10:12 PM
Retroactively.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 12:23 AM
Wow, third thread...we've been doing this for over half a year...

EDIT: Looking over the HoH, you forgot to mention all of the things that I (directly or indirectly) convinced you to ban: Mercantile Background, Acorn of Far Travel, Lightning Maces, Aptitude Weapons, as well as quite a few other things that I currently forget about.

Plus, I created the entire minionmancer category; that should count for something.

C'mon, man, show the love :smalltongue:

sofawall
2009-12-15, 12:30 AM
Half a year was less than 2 weeks ago. I meant to post something, but didn't have computer access.

ex cathedra
2009-12-15, 12:35 AM
Hello, new thread. I expect that we will become fast friends.

9mm
2009-12-15, 12:45 AM
Wow, third thread...we've been doing this for over half a year...

EDIT: Looking over the HoH, you forgot to mention all of the things that I (directly or indirectly) convinced you to ban: Mercantile Background, Acorn of Far Travel, Lightning Maces, Aptitude Weapons, as well as quite a few other things that I currently forget about.

Plus, I created the entire minionmancer category; that should count for something.

C'mon, man, show the love :smalltongue:

you also killed yourself in hilarious ways.... TWICE.

That's what should really matter.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 01:07 AM
Well, one of those is already up there. We still need the one where I insulted your character, cast a swift action dispel, rebounded it off your shield, then killed myself with it.

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 01:09 AM
Time to make new memories. =)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-15, 02:18 AM
So, anyone want a Qualification Round against the weakest class ever published? I wanna see if my nefarious plan has, indeed, born lucrative fruit.

I can play tomorrow evening.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 02:23 AM
Well, one of those is already up there. We still need the one where I insulted your character, cast a swift action dispel, rebounded it off your shield, then killed myself with it.

It's up there and labeled "a must read." Which it was.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-15, 02:24 AM
So, anyone want a Qualification Round against the weakest class ever published? I wanna see if my nefarious plan has, indeed, born lucrative fruit.

I can play tomorrow evening.How are you making commonerMonk viable? I thought Tide had banned the best item abuses.

sofawall
2009-12-15, 02:35 AM
How are you making commonerMonk viable? I thought Tide had banned the best item abuses.

Commoner is in fact weaker without Chicken-Infested.

As for the class, I think he refers to CW Samurai.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-15, 02:56 AM
How are you making commonerMonk viable? I thought Tide had banned the best item abuses.

CW Samurai. Even worse than the Monk, in that the 'class features' are basically more restrictive versions of feats, and comes slower than a Fighter's feat progression.

However, I have a clever trick up my sleeve. Shall we see if I am clever or foolish?

Arakune
2009-12-15, 09:44 AM
CW Samurai. Even worse than the Monk, in that the 'class features' are basically more restrictive versions of feats, and comes slower than a Fighter's feat progression.

However, I have a clever trick up my sleeve. Shall we see if I am clever or foolish?

Isn't that because of the rules changes of the test, your strategy now becomes a type of diplomacy abuse?

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 11:47 AM
Isn't that because of the rules changes of the test, your strategy now becomes a type of diplomacy abuse?

More or less. It's not hard to grab the requisite immunity though.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-15, 01:47 PM
I am amused by the new Barbarian and Pally. Don't think they quite compete with casters at high levels, but still very very good.

sofawall
2009-12-15, 03:02 PM
Luckily, the casters are also being redone.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 03:23 PM
Remember I got Love's Pain and high CL items banned (well, I brainstormed the idea with Olo).

I really need to make a new character soon, but I can never settle for normal concepts... I always want to go with something that just needs to be banned.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 03:24 PM
CW Samurai. Even worse than the Monk, in that the 'class features' are basically more restrictive versions of feats, and comes slower than a Fighter's feat progression.

However, I have a clever trick up my sleeve. Shall we see if I am clever or foolish?

Just give me a minute to finish this paladin build I've been working on.

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 03:27 PM
Remember I got Love's Pain and high CL items banned (well, I brainstormed the idea with Olo).

I really need to make a new character soon, but I can never settle for normal concepts... I always want to go with something that just needs to be banned.

I know the feeling.
And yeah, brainstorming with Olo is always a blast. It leads to crying children and Michael Bay explosions.

Milskidasith
2009-12-15, 03:30 PM
My only non-broken idea now is to have a Colossal Dire Tortoise companion with a Psy-war/Druid, and give it a bunch of grappling feats and psionic augmentations, but since Natural Bond doesn't stack, I can't do that. :(

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 03:49 PM
I know the feeling.
And yeah, brainstorming with Olo is always a blast. It leads to crying children and Michael Bay explosions.

And, last night, 106 RTAs per round at a damage output for each that would put a Hulking Hurler to shame.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 04:03 PM
I'll probably observe a few of the battles, and may make a character at some point after finals week ends.

I've considered making characters for ToS a few times, but I usually either a) don't have time, or b) start making a character when I'm sleep-deprived and end up with something that's clearly a terrible idea on many levels. The last one I remember was some kind of Paladin of Tyranny/ Assassin/ Swordsage thing that was designed to use Divine Metamagic to get Persistent Wraithstrike and Persistent Greater Invisibility. Except it had such low weapon damage that I'm not sure why I wanted it to have Persistent Wraithstrike in the first place. And some of its maneuvers were touch attacks anyway. The damn thing made no sense whatsoever.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the sane optimizers can do, and what totally awesome way Olo finds to kill himself this time.

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 04:05 PM
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the sane optimizers can do, and what totally awesome way Olo finds to kill himself this time.

Oh, the next way will be quite a treat.


And, last night, 106 RTAs per round at a damage output for each that would put a Hulking Hurler to shame.

Probably not that many if we don't get that one ability to resolve the likable way.

But if we don't, there's always BB to turn them in to MTAs and therefore avoid pesky spells.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 04:39 PM
Anyway, I look forward to seeing what the sane optimizers can do, and what totally awesome way Olo finds to kill himself this time.

I havent EVER gotten a full rounds worth of actions against 9mm. Either I kill him or he kills himself. After 5 battles, I have yet to see anything of what his characters can do...

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 04:53 PM
Well, maybe it'll go differently this time. Or you could try a 2v2 match, so each of you can demonstrate your respective tricks on another character before the There Can Only Be One thing between you two kicks in. :smalltongue:

You know what? I think I'm going to dig up that build I mentioned and see if it's salvageable, or at least can give me a good idea for something else. If I make a ToS character, I want to make something kinda off-the-wall.

EDIT: How did I get Disguise as a class skill? Why am I a Silverbrow Human? Why the hell did I take Monk levels?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 05:04 PM
EDIT: How did I get Disguise as a class skill? Why am I a Silverbrow Human?

These two questions have complementary answers.


Why the hell did I take Monk levels?

Well, now we know that you'll have to rework your character...

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 05:50 PM
OK. The final thing is Unarmed Swordsage 1/ Paladin of Tyranny 4/ Monk 2/ Assassin 5/ Swordsage +1. Let's see if I can break this down.

Silverbrow Human gets Disguise as a class skill, as Olo pointed out. I was apparently going to use it for the dragonblooded subtype so I could get Practical Metamagic, not for Disguise.
And then I got distracted and tried to get the highest possible saves by taking two levels in Monk and two in Paladin for Divine Grace.
And then I thought "Oh hey! If I take two more levels in paladin I get Turn Undead! I should do that and use it for Divine Metamagic!"
And that's when I decided to use my access to Disguise to go into Assassin, so I could get Wraithstrike to persist.
I must have chosen Assassin over Wizard for the BAB and Sneak Attack, and tried to rework my build into something sneak-attack-oriented instead of a divine caster with high saves like I think I originally intended it to be.

So, what can I get from this? I think there are some one-round duration Paladin and Assassin spells in the Spell Compendium that could be useful if persisted, and Persistent Wraithstrike and Persistent Greater Invisibility (the latter of which I could get if I replaced the Monk levels with more Assassin) aren't terrible ideas. I doubt I could get enough Turn Undead uses to power all of them, though, so maybe the Monk levels were a better idea than more Assassin would have been.

It does have pretty high saves, though it has little offensive power and is so far beyond MAD that it's not even funny. It has good touch AC, but mainly because it stacks the Monk and Swordsage AC bonuses, which I'm pretty sure RAW disallows. It might be interesting to see if I can make a defense-oriented build that can hold up against a normal "RAAAAGH explode your face off" ToS build, but that's a losing game. Interesting to try, just not bloody likely to pan out. I could mess around with items, persisted spells, and maneuvers to find some fortuitous combination that actually lets it do decent damage so the high saves and Persistent Wraithstrike that are its only advantages actually mean something.

Moving the first Swordsage level to the end might let me pick more decent maneuvers, which would help a lot more than the extra skill points. Replacing Swordsage with Crusader for more toughness and using Martial Study to get Assassin's Stance would probably be smart. Dropping one SS level for another Assassin level so I can get HiPS and keeping the other would probably be smarter.
[Cleric or Dread Necro] 1/ [Swordsage and/or Crusader] 4 /Assassin 8 might be a sane way to do what this build does. I'm sure I could do something much better with a Ruby Knight Vindicator for much less effort, though.

Cieyrin
2009-12-15, 06:49 PM
@Surly Seraph: The thing that strikes me about your build is that you use original Monk, when ToS has a new remix for taking. It probably doesn't fit into the rest of your stuff now, as it's a very different beast.

Also, I just noticed your Avvie is carrying a kitty. Poor kitty! ;_;

Finally, hello, new thread. I may not have posted much in the second incarnation, when I became interested, but it's gone in interesting directions from there. Perhaps I'll actually compete in the ToS proper instead of the side projects that seem to have sprung from it, though this'll probably be dependent on getting a more stable internets. Hopefully it'll happen before ToS thread 4! :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-15, 07:24 PM
Isn't that because of the rules changes of the test, your strategy now becomes a type of diplomacy abuse?

Nope. Not using Diplomacy. I am not aware of any rules changes which would affect his tactic.

imperialspectre
2009-12-15, 07:52 PM
I believe the argument is that making a skill check that you can optimize very well, which automatically succeeds in the vast majority of situations and automatically disables the opponent, is functionally similar to diplomacy abuse. I find this argument persuasive, but we haven't figured out a way to fix this in an equitable fashion.

Signmaker
2009-12-15, 07:56 PM
I believe the argument is that making a skill check that you can optimize very well, which automatically succeeds in the vast majority of situations and automatically disables the opponent, is functionally similar to diplomacy abuse. I find this argument persuasive, but we haven't figured out a way to fix this in an equitable fashion.

Yeah, that sounds about right. A well-built Darkstalker can be made undetectable with a high enough Hide/Move Silently, and sustain it for as long as they need to, so you're left fighting someone that essentially pings you to death at the worst, and utterly rapes you at the best.

imperialspectre
2009-12-15, 08:29 PM
Sure, but there are counters to that - they're sometimes expensive, but there are counters. There are no real counters to using "social" skills in combat.

Amphetryon
2009-12-15, 08:47 PM
Sure, but there are counters to that - they're sometimes expensive, but there are counters. There are no real counters to using "social" skills in combat.

Sounds like an argument for some sort of hard limit on how 'demoralized' an opponent can be made vs a single adversary.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-15, 10:11 PM
So, I really want to make a monk using the Penny Dreadfuls fix, but I have no idea what to grab for my other 3 levels. Swordsage is obvious and I may just go with that and the Ascetic Sage feat, but I'm not sure. I really like Shadowsun Ninja, but I'm not sure I'm willing to give up levels in this new Monk, and I don't know if 1-3 levels of SSN would be worthwhile. Thoughts?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-15, 10:24 PM
I've done swordsage, at it worked out very well.

You could also do one of the other combination feats...Ascetic Stalker, Ascetic Knight, etc.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-12-15, 10:37 PM
So, I really want to make a monk using the Penny Dreadfuls fix, but I have no idea what to grab for my other 3 levels. ?

Use this. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=82512)

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-15, 10:46 PM
Sounds like an argument for some sort of hard limit on how 'demoralized' an opponent can be made vs a single adversarh.

Takahashi can send you straight to Cowering in one failed HD + Wis mod roll, DC... 48. Currently looking for a way to break Fear Immune targets.

My next build? Let's call him Cowboy Beebop for now. I got the idea when some sonofaboop linked Carmelldansen to me. He'll dance all over your immobilized form... Dex penalties from Lassos stack, right?

Also trying to make the Hulk viable at level 13. Pretty feat-intensive to get the prerequisites going, though, so may not be able to pull it off.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-15, 10:55 PM
How worthwhile is the Dark template? +10 ft speed to feed that yummy Between the Raindrops, HIPS and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. I could grab Assasin's Stance or even just be undetectable until I unleash a strike/full attack. I'm definitely thinking I'll go with Swordsage at 1st level for the skill points and then finish with Swordsage again for high level maneuvers.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-15, 11:12 PM
How worthwhile is the Dark template? +10 ft speed to feed that yummy Between the Raindrops, HIPS and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. I could grab Assasin's Stance or even just be undetectable until I unleash a strike/full attack. I'm definitely thinking I'll go with Swordsage at 1st level for the skill points and then finish with Swordsage again for high level maneuvers.

If you think that's good, there's a fiendish graft that doubles your movement.

Be careful on assuming HiPS will protect you, even with Darkstalker. There's a plethora of Touchsight and Mindsight in ToS, and I think even a couple Lifesight.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 11:55 PM
@^: Doesn't Darkstalker work on Touchsight? I *think* Mind Blank stops Mindsight, and I don't know if there are ways around Lifesight (does it work on constructs?)


@Surly Seraph: The thing that strikes me about your build is that you use original Monk, when ToS has a new remix for taking. It probably doesn't fit into the rest of your stuff now, as it's a very different beast.

Yeah, the monk and paladin levels are definitely pointless if I use the ToS class fixes. The monk would lose the AC bonus, and the paladin would lose Divine Grace and Turn Undead, aka everything I was taking it for. I probably wouldn't use that build anyway, but just in case: are we allowed to use the original versions?
In any case, I've got plenty of build ideas. I've found some deliciously poorly-worded Ranger, Paladin, and Assassin spells that have potential. Perhaps an Archivist...


Also, I just noticed your Avvie is carrying a kitty. Poor kitty! ;_;

My signature would be meaningless without that kitten. That delicious, delicious kitten. :smallsmile:


My next build? Let's call him Cowboy Beebop for now. I got the idea when some sonofaboop linked Carmelldansen to me. He'll dance all over your immobilized form... Dex penalties from Lassos stack, right?

How are they worded? Nets don't stack because they inflict the Entangled condition, which inflicts a Dex penalty. And ability score penalties don't stack, they overlap. This, incidentally, has foiled me repeatedly. Stupid Ray of Enfeeblement, would have been so useful.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-16, 12:00 AM
@^: Doesn't Darkstalker work on Touchsight? I *think* Mind Blank stops Mindsight, and I don't know if there are ways around Lifesight (does it work on constructs?)


Nothing short of incorporeal/alternate plane shenanigans works on Touchsight. It works *LIKE* Blindsight, in that it's rules are identical, but it's not Blindsight.

Mind Blank does stop mindsight, but the ToS fix allows a CL check to penetrate it.

Lifesight causes any living creature to light up like a christmas tree.

Glimbur
2009-12-16, 12:07 AM
Nothing short of incorporeal/alternate plane shenanigans works on Touchsight. It works *LIKE* Blindsight, in that it's rules are identical, but it's not Blindsight.

Mind Blank does stop mindsight, but the ToS fix allows a CL check to penetrate it.

Lifesight causes any living creature to light up like a christmas tree.

So you're saying just be an incorporeal undead... and also mindless. This sounds like a character idea. If only it were legal to be mindless.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 12:12 AM
So you're saying just be an incorporeal undead... and also mindless. This sounds like a character idea. If only it were legal to be mindless.

Funny how this comes up right before I unveil my Darkstalker hider. =)

Glimbur
2009-12-16, 12:14 AM
Funny how this comes up right before I unveil my Darkstalker hider. =)

There are other, sillier ways to not be seen. But what with the profusion of True Seeing and people actually having Will Saves, a legion of people looking just like you is impractical... if done via illusion spells.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 12:15 AM
There are other, sillier ways to not be seen. But what with the profusion of True Seeing and people actually having Will Saves, a legion of people looking just like you is impractical... if done via illusion spells.

Eh. I suppose.

sofawall
2009-12-16, 12:21 AM
Sure, but there are counters to that - they're sometimes expensive, but there are counters. There are no real counters to using "social" skills in combat.

Well, there are, but they are almost as a rule not worth getting unless you know you're fighting someone using them.


So you're saying just be an incorporeal undead... and also mindless. This sounds like a character idea. If only it were legal to be mindless.

There was a quote by... Surreal? I think it was him... Anyway, on Gleemax. Something like:


So we need a mindless, incorporeal undead who happens to buy a particular item and invest ranks in hide/move silently? Typical Char Op, then. Carry on.

or some such thing.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 12:24 AM
Can't you negate HiPS with an orb of bright light? IIRC, even getting one cast by an NPC spellcaster would last days and be cheap... can't recall the exact spell, though.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 12:28 AM
Can't you negate HiPS with an orb of bright light? IIRC, even getting one cast by an NPC spellcaster would last days and be cheap... can't recall the exact spell, though.

Depends on the HiPS. Some function via natural terrain, some by shadow.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 12:31 AM
Theres a permanent one...its level 3, Light descriptor, a cleric spell...and I can't remember the name either.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-16, 12:42 AM
Not to bring physics into it, but if you just set up an object up at an angle of 45 degress or less that faces away from the light you should have a shadow, even if the sun is directly overhead. If the light source gets moved around the side, then you can either set up another object (dropping sticks or daggers should work just fine) or use a more abusive interpretation. Such as dropping a bowl upside-down on the ground and hiding in its (enclosed) shadow. If that's too silly, how about a colander? The shadow is exposed to the outside, and there'll definitely be bits of shadow despite light from any angle unless it's surrounded by light.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 12:53 AM
Not to bring physics into it, but if you just set up an object up at an angle of 45 degress or less that faces away from the light you should have a shadow, even if the sun is directly overhead. If the light source gets moved around the side, then you can either set up another object (dropping sticks or daggers should work just fine) or use a more abusive interpretation. Such as dropping a bowl upside-down on the ground and hiding in its (enclosed) shadow. If that's too illy, how about a colander? The shadow is exposed to the outside, and there'll definitely be bits of shadow despite light from any angle unless it's surrounded by light.

HiPS is only for hiding while being observed, which is a specific case.

Frankly, I just prefer to hide in things rather than near them.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-16, 12:58 AM
But hiding in things has certain inherent risks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ), stealthwise.

IonDragon
2009-12-16, 01:27 AM
I don't have time to read all of this right now, I'm working on another setting. BUT I want in on this. Will be back later, and may edit this.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-16, 01:30 AM
This is just an ongoing arena-style thing; just make a char and start doing expeditions.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 02:02 AM
I just made a swiftblade, if anyone wants to fight. I'll take on any tier...no borg cube though, sorry sofa.

Doc Roc
2009-12-16, 02:14 AM
I don't have time to read all of this right now, I'm working on another setting. BUT I want in on this. Will be back later, and may edit this.
This is just an ongoing arena-style thing; just make a char and start doing expeditions.
Da, the battles are fast enoug that we don't do traditional recruiting for an arena-style game.
Thanks to our tireless Law Ninjas and Hazred's Hungry Hounds, we have few repeat offenders.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-16, 08:48 AM
I'll take on the swiftblade, if you like.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-16, 09:10 AM
How do Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike interact in the ToS rules, or do they? I noted the part of the Monk fix that talks about effective Monk levels, but there are still some confusing parts. You guys might consider explicitly saying in each ability that can be advanced by PrC/Item/whatever exactly what would advance it and then eliminate all references to "effective Monk levels".

I'm trying to see how high I can get my speed for Between the Raindrops. So far I'm a Xeph with the Quick trait, Speed of Thought, and Boots of Striding and Springing. I'm thinking there ought to be a way to get a better enhancement bonus than just the 10ft from the boots. Any other good ways to boost speed without becoming a caster? For that matter, would it be worth grabbing one level of something so I can use scrolls/wands?

EDIT: Hmm, just noticed the Monk bonus is now insight, so Speed of Thought is worthless. I may change my race now.

Glimbur
2009-12-16, 09:59 AM
I'm trying to see how high I can get my speed for Between the Raindrops. So far I'm a Xeph with the Quick trait, Speed of Thought, and Boots of Striding and Springing. I'm thinking there ought to be a way to get a better enhancement bonus than just the 10ft from the boots. Any other good ways to boost speed without becoming a caster? For that matter, would it be worth grabbing one level of something so I can use scrolls/wands?


Boots of Speed are kind of pricey, but will get you +30 enhancement to speed. Free action to activate makes them pretty nice.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 11:25 AM
I'll take on the swiftblade, if you like.

...Sure.

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7513719#post7513719)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 11:30 AM
I'm trying to see how high I can get my speed for Between the Raindrops. So far I'm a Xeph with the Quick trait, Speed of Thought, and Boots of Striding and Springing. I'm thinking there ought to be a way to get a better enhancement bonus than just the 10ft from the boots. Any other good ways to boost speed without becoming a caster? For that matter, would it be worth grabbing one level of something so I can use scrolls/wands?

EDIT: Hmm, just noticed the Monk bonus is now insight, so Speed of Thought is worthless. I may change my race now.

Grab rollers and feathered wings. Your speed just quadrupled.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-16, 11:34 AM
Grab rollers and feathered wings. Your speed just quadrupled.

Tripled. Two doublings equals a tripling.

Milskidasith
2009-12-16, 11:41 AM
Couldn't you pick up that ability that gives you 10x speed on a charge? Cheetah's... something?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 11:42 AM
Tripled. Two doublings equals a tripling.

Actually, I'm not so sure...

Rollers double your land speed.

Feathered wings give you a fly speed equal to twice your land speed.

Aecus
2009-12-16, 11:54 AM
Actually, I'm not so sure...

Rollers double your land speed.

Feathered wings give you a fly speed equal to twice your land speed.

What/where are rollers from?

I also have a monk I am making. A question though, is there someone we submit our sheets to before playing or do we just find someone and go at it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-16, 12:03 PM
What/where are rollers from?

I also have a monk I am making. A question though, is there someone we submit our sheets to before playing or do we just find someone and go at it?

There's a submission link in the first couple posts. It's needed for qualifiers and official exhibitions.

Tanaric
2009-12-16, 12:07 PM
...am I looking at the same rollers as you guys? The maug rollers I see only add +20ft to landspeed. :smallconfused:

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-16, 01:18 PM
Here's an interesting question. With the Way of Iron, could I get 2 gauntlets and then be considered to be wielding 2 weapons for TWF?

Also, I'd still like a ruling on how or whether Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike stack. Thanks.

Aecus
2009-12-16, 01:27 PM
Would anyone like to do a test fight against a Monk? I want to see how it stacks up verse most others.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 01:28 PM
Here's an interesting question. With the Way of Iron, could I get 2 gauntlets and then be considered to be wielding 2 weapons for TWF?

I see nothing wrong with that.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 03:52 PM
Can't you negate HiPS with an orb of bright light? IIRC, even getting one cast by an NPC spellcaster would last days and be cheap... can't recall the exact spell, though.

There's also this nifty class called Warlock. A one-level dip not only gets you a 1d6 RTA which you can Sneak Attack with, but you can also get Darkness as an SLA at will. Shadows? Check.


Actually, I'm not so sure...

Rollers double your land speed.

Feathered wings give you a fly speed equal to twice your land speed.

Actually, they'd both be moving the same speed, as they both go off your base land speed. So you'd be going twice your land speed with Rollers, or twice your land speed with Feathered Wings. Either way, you're going the same speed.

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 03:55 PM
There's also this nifty class called Warlock. A one-level dip not only gets you a 1d6 RTA which you can Sneak Attack with, but you can also get Darkness as an SLA at will. Shadows? Check.

Additionally, you don't really NEED HiPS, if you're creative about it. All you have to do is not be observed, which can be done by breaking LoS. Which there are a myriad of ways to do. HiPS is just icing on the cake as it lets you prep easier.

Tanaric
2009-12-16, 04:01 PM
Would anyone like to do a test fight against a Monk? I want to see how it stacks up verse most others.

I'll try you with my monk, if you have no objections?

Map and buff rounds are up to you.

Aecus
2009-12-16, 04:02 PM
I'll try you with my monk, if you have no objections?

Sure I don't know anything about the different arenas though.

Edit2: How about the Sinking Island? Just for fun.

Edit: As to buff rounds... Does 2 sound good?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 04:12 PM
Additionally, you don't really NEED HiPS, if you're creative about it. All you have to do is not be observed, which can be done by breaking LoS. Which there are a myriad of ways to do. HiPS is just icing on the cake as it lets you prep easier.

It does make things significantly easier, though. Particularly when you've got someone with True Sight up. Oddly enough, it can't see hiding, and doesn't ignore Darkness.

Also, lets you toss around Darknesses in various places, which is a useful diversionary tactic

Signmaker
2009-12-16, 04:13 PM
It does make things significantly easier, though. Particularly when you've got someone with True Sight up. Oddly enough, it can't see hiding, and doesn't ignore Darkness.

Also, lets you toss around Darknesses in various places, which is a useful diversionary tactic

That or you just grab incorporeality and phase down in to the ground and then hide inside a tree. Or a bush. Or the water. Your choice.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-16, 04:13 PM
That or you just grab incorporeality and phase down in to the ground and then hide inside a tree. Or a bush. Or the water. Your choice.

HiPS + Darkness is considerably easier to get than Incorporeality

Aecus
2009-12-16, 04:20 PM
Tanaric, the thread is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7515691#post7515691).

Cieyrin
2009-12-16, 06:35 PM
How worthwhile is the Dark template? +10 ft speed to feed that yummy Between the Raindrops, HIPS and bonuses to Hide and Move Silently. I could grab Assasin's Stance or even just be undetectable until I unleash a strike/full attack. I'm definitely thinking I'll go with Swordsage at 1st level for the skill points and then finish with Swordsage again for high level maneuvers.

If you want the Dark template, it's probably worth your while to look at the magic item in the Tome of Magic that grants it either as uses per day or permanently. The uses per day version should last you for ToS purposes, though.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-16, 07:22 PM
I have another question about the new Monk. The To Burn the Sky ability says your spear does 10 fire damage and 1 Forge Fire damage per effective Monk level. Does that mean at effective Monk level of 13 I do 130 fire and 13 Forge Fire after Vaulting the Heavens, or 10 fire and 13 Forge Fire?

Tanaric
2009-12-16, 07:25 PM
The former.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-16, 09:43 PM
Ok, now that I'm almost done with feats and equipment, I really need to know if Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike stack or not.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-16, 10:16 PM
Ok, now that I'm almost done with feats and equipment, I really need to know if Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike stack or not.

I believe they do.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-16, 10:37 PM
What about the argument that they both reference your real monk level, and thus overlap? That you're treated as if 5 higher than x by the belt and 4 higher by the feat, and thus 5 higher in total?

SurlySeraph
2009-12-16, 11:39 PM
@Claudius: I think for Test of Spite purposes, they've been ruled to stack. Not 100% sure, though.

Damn it Stormguard Warrior, why do your touch attacks specifically deal no damage? You and Persistent Wraithstrike would have made such a cute couple.

Also, a couple questions.
Is a critical hit on a touch attack that deals no damage still a critical hit?
In the absence of other guidelines, does a weapon need to do damage for its enhancements to take effect?
If something that increases your crit range doesn't say that it doesn't stack with other crit enhancers, and is 3.5 material, does it stack?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-16, 11:45 PM
Is a critical hit on a touch attack that deals no damage still a critical hit?
Yes. A critical hit on a creature immune to extra damage from critical hits is still a critical hit. Damage is not tied to a critical hit.

In the absence of other guidelines, does a weapon need to do damage for its enhancements to take effect?
Elemental effects, I believe, have been specifically stated in rules sources to work with touch attacks (flaming weapons can still deal fire damage to creatures immune to the weapon, for example).

Others? Well, most special effects tied to hitting are negated if the damage is wholly prevented.

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-16, 11:47 PM
Damn it Stormguard Warrior, why do your touch attacks specifically deal no damage? You and Persistent Wraithstrike would have made such a cute couple.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Evidently, what you want is the ability to deal several hits with a full attack, then get at least one level of Greater Invisibility (and a method to prevent being detected; this is pretty hard in here since it's almost a rule to bring your own vision modes other than low-light vision/darkvision). That way, you can full attack and get as many touch attacks as you possibly can for the next hit, to which a persistent touch attack mechanic would grant lots of benefits. Usually, Avalanche of Blades is a good choice, although it may be a tad difficult to get sometimes (AFB; is it 7th level or 8th level?)

But then again, most of the builds move to single-turn kills, and the preparations for that usually are done on buff rounds.

Doc Roc
2009-12-17, 12:37 AM
How does greater invis make your attacks touch attacks?

Also, given the monk fix, I think it might be good to re-rule so they don't stack.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-17, 12:41 AM
I think they were already touch attacks, and he wants the invisibility to negate dex bonus to AC. Not sure what else it could be.

Since you're the head DM and the designer of the new monk class, could you please weigh in on the stacking question?

Looks like you edit-ninja'd me on that.

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-17, 01:02 AM
How does greater invis make your attacks touch attacks?

They don't. Claudius exposed it for me better: negating your Dex bonus to Armor Class, which effectively means hitting your Touch + Flat-Footed AC (except you're not flat-footed per se). With Greater Invis. + Stormguard Warrior, you can make something like Avalanche of Blades have a better chance of hitting, since you're adding your Str (or Dex, or Wis, or whatever you use for attack) to your BAB to an AC that's supposed to be hilariously low. The end result gets to at least three safe hits, perhaps four if you have a huge attack bonus, against an AC that negates armor, shield, natural armor, Dex, and other bonuses that require you to get your Dex bonus to AC; that means a net gain of +15 to damage, per each attack. Repeat the dose later on, getting lots of hits and adding 5 * number of previous turn hits to each successful hit (which will probably have a higher number of chances to hit).

I know you know this, but for the benefit of someone who still doesn't get it, which is...pretty much no one on the ToS. Everybody here is smart enough to figure the synergy and the methodology ;).

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 01:12 AM
Most everything in ToS can kill you in one round. The idea with Wraithstrike + Stormguard Warrior was to do a lot of damage the first turn (lots of touch attacks that do normal weapon damage hitting), and then vastly more the second (from Combat Rythym kicking in). Therefore, some means of nondetection to make sure I survive to the second round would be crucial.

The idea was:
Round 1: Sudden Leap or Shadow Blink, full attack or Avalanche of Blades from a maneuver-granting item or martial script to build up Combat Rythym, do a lot of damage.
Round 2: Pursue target if necessary, full attack or Avalanche of Blades if I've got a second maneuver-granting item or martial script, do a lot more damage.
Etc. It might work with elemental enhancements, but that's easy to resist and unlikely to be worth it. So I'm looking at other things I can do now.


Yes. A critical hit on a creature immune to extra damage from critical hits is still a critical hit. Damage is not tied to a critical hit.

Elemental effects, I believe, have been specifically stated in rules sources to work with touch attacks (flaming weapons can still deal fire damage to creatures immune to the weapon, for example).

Others? Well, most special effects tied to hitting are negated if the damage is wholly prevented.

The special effects tied to hitting that I'm looking at don't fall into that category. Mwahaha. Screw Persistent Wraithstrike, all I need is going to be normal touch attacks.

Kaorti Resin isn't allowed, is it? I don't see it on the ban list. Because if it's allowed, that raises certain possibilities.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-17, 01:45 AM
Finding a way to be immune to some of the more common one-round wonders is also a pretty darn good idea...

ex cathedra
2009-12-17, 09:32 AM
Kaorti Resin isn't allowed, is it? I don't see it on the ban list. Because if it's allowed, that raises certain possibilities.

I could be wrong, but I believe that Kaorti Resin is included in the following ban :


The Far Realms do not exist.

Doc Roc
2009-12-17, 10:28 AM
You are in fact not wrong.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-17, 10:58 AM
Would anybody care for an exhibition against my Monk? I'd estimate him as probably Tier 3.

Tanaric
2009-12-17, 11:30 AM
I'll be game later today Rahl, after I finish tweaking my monk this afternoon.

theterran
2009-12-17, 11:59 AM
How do you estimate what tier your guy would be?

Saintjebus
2009-12-17, 12:03 PM
Is Psionic/Magic transparency in effect? If I am a Psion, and I have a staff, do I use my manifester level for the Caster level purposes?

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-17, 05:08 PM
theTerran, I don't know if they're referencing the Tier System for Classes found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) but that's what I used. Tier 3 in this case would be capable of doing one thing really well, and not totally worthless in other situations. Tier 3 is also the highest you can get if you don't have access to 9th level spells, cause spells are just that awesome.

EDIT: And I too would like to know if full magic/psionic transparency is in effect.

Also, how does the new Monk interact with Fist of the Forest? FotF increases unarmed damage to the next step on the Monk damage chart. Does that mean it counts as 5 effective Monk levels for unarmed damage, since that's generally what it takes to go up a category?

Cieyrin
2009-12-17, 07:29 PM
I do believe the Psionics-Magic Trasparency is in effect, as otherwise we'd have more characters having to consider extra defenses against both.

Tanaric
2009-12-17, 07:35 PM
Also, how does the new Monk interact with Fist of the Forest? FotF increases unarmed damage to the next step on the Monk damage chart. Does that mean it counts as 5 effective Monk levels for unarmed damage, since that's generally what it takes to go up a category?

It doesn't give you 5 levels of monk for unarmed strike damage. It gives you a die increase, or in the event that you've maxed out the PD monk damage table, a +1 damage increase to unarmed strikes, the same as if you had gotten another increase in unarmed strike damage from a different source.

sofawall
2009-12-17, 09:00 PM
theTerran, I don't know if they're referencing the Tier System for Classes found here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) but that's what I used.

Actually, I think there is a Tier system for ToS-only, otherwise most every build would be tier 1 or 3.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-17, 09:01 PM
There is and I cannot dig up the link for the life of me.

sofawall
2009-12-17, 09:09 PM
There is and I cannot dig up the link for the life of me.

You are in the same position as myself.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-17, 10:28 PM
Me too. I think it was in the first thread?

As for magic/psionic transparency, it is in effect, but you can not activate a magic staff as a psion. CL and ML are not interchangeable as far as I can tell. UPD and UMD are separate skills, as are Spellcraft and Psicraft.

Saintjebus
2009-12-17, 10:35 PM
Ah, thank you. Then I built my character correctly. About how long does it take to get a character approved? I submitted it early this morning Mountain Time.

ex cathedra
2009-12-17, 10:38 PM
I try my best. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136)

Also, if no one else has already I'll consider checking your sheet. The time varies wildly, depending on the checker and the number of mistakes that everyone has invariably made.

Saintjebus
2009-12-17, 10:41 PM
Oh, I wasn't trying to hurry you or anything. I was just curious. And thank you for linking that. When I put my character in the list as awaiting approval, I marked it as Tier 1-2. I see now that it is tier3 at best.

ex cathedra
2009-12-17, 10:43 PM
Not to offend, but it seems you've made more mistakes than most. You see, the sheet you submitted is that of a level two wizard. As such, I'm somewhat confused.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-17, 10:58 PM
Oh, I wasn't trying to hurry you or anything. I was just curious. And thank you for linking that. When I put my character in the list as awaiting approval, I marked it as Tier 1-2. I see now that it is tier3 at best.

Yeah, Tier 1-2 is a pretty high goal to shoot for. As of yet, I've got one that qualifies in that range, my psion.

Tier 0.5 is reserved for a few exceptional creations, such as the Borg Cube. Ones that are practically unbeatable, without foreknowledge.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 11:13 PM
Hm, does anyone know of a way to remove the nonproficiency penalty for improvised weapons? Preferably a feat? I doubt the sheet-checkers here would allow Weapon Proficiency (improvised), but I can hope.

I'm working on-and-off on two builds right now. One's tier three or four-ish but a lot of fun, the other's more powerful but less original. I don't know when I'll have them usable, though.

Signmaker
2009-12-17, 11:18 PM
Hm, does anyone know of a way to remove the nonproficiency penalty for improvised weapons? Preferably a feat? I doubt the sheet-checkers here would allow Weapon Proficiency (improvised), but I can hope.

I'm working on-and-off on two builds right now. One's tier three or four-ish but a lot of fun, the other's more powerful but less original. I don't know when I'll have them usable, though.

Requires two feats from Dragonlance, don't recall the names for em.

deuxhero
2009-12-17, 11:20 PM
Few random thoughts on the rules.

Does "SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components." apply to the Loremasters Greater Lore and True Lore, where they were intended to be free (and suck quite a bit otherwise)? I think the Healer also had a SLA True Res that was intended to not cost anything (I think it explicitly points it's free cost out, not sure though). Neither is that good for arena play, but worth noting.

LA buy off is listed at the start, but not what is allowed from UA.

"Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method." should exclude +0 metamagics.

Why axe wildshape Ranger?

What about putting Mage Armor in Enchantment/Abjuration like everyone not going for more cheese thinks it should?

Does "divinely granted" includes Dragonborn? Isn't Saint +2 LA and thus barred anyways.

"You may gain membership benefits from only one organization with mechanical benefits", what exactly does "mechanical benefit" mean? Prc qualification (Must be a member of ____) or just abilitys granted directly from membership.

Should note psionic power versions of banned spells are also banned.

Needs "You can't halfs a 10 foot ladder for two ten foot poles" or require that someone do it in combat if they wanted to and inability to heal with a bucket of water.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-17, 11:30 PM
Why axe wildshape Ranger?

Does "divinely granted" includes Dragonborn? Isn't Saint +2 LA and thus barred anyways.

Should note psionic power versions of banned spells are also banned.

1) Wildshape, in all its forms, is banned, as it's an alternate form without specific forms chosen.

2) Saint can be brought to +1 or lower via LA buyoff.

3) Only if they have the same name. For example, Temporal Acceleration is not Time Stop (lower level, more limited in scope, even when augmented to 17pp)

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-17, 11:33 PM
I for one have no problems with Dragonborn. Consider them allowed unless Doc Roc overrules me. I think that rule was to prevent Lolth-Touched and such.

Saint is acceptable with LA buyoff, which is definitely allowed.

I think metamagics having a +0 adjustment are specific enough to override the reduction rule.

The organization membership rules only apply if you are getting mechanical benefits from the organization itself. You can be a Mage of the Arcane Order and also gain benefits from membership in the Paragnostic Assembly, because only the Paragnostic Assembly grants actual benefits for membership. MotAO's abilities can be said to originate from the class.

Thank you for your opinions on the rules. You raise some good points.

sofawall
2009-12-17, 11:33 PM
Needs "You can't halfs a 10 foot ladder for two ten foot poles"

If they half it, good on them.

However, nobody wants to buy poles with weird little holes in them, and there is a plethora of firewood where everyone comes from :P

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 11:36 PM
If someone tries drowning to heal, I think the DMs can deal with it by pointing out that the rules don't list a way to stop drowning either.

deuxhero
2009-12-17, 11:40 PM
If someone tries drowning to heal, I think the DMs can deal with it by pointing out that the rules don't list a way to stop drowning either.

Some source actually does allow heal checks to stop it. Forget where.



Saint is acceptable with LA buyoff, which is definitely allowed.


"No LA above +1." needs rewriting then.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-17, 11:44 PM
You fall unconscious during your first round of drowning. Better hope your animal companion has ranks in Heal.

deuxhero
2009-12-17, 11:47 PM
Or it's 2v2, or you do and have a familiar.

Saintjebus
2009-12-18, 12:01 AM
Not to offend, but it seems you've made more mistakes than most. You see, the sheet you submitted is that of a level two wizard. As such, I'm somewhat confused.

Ah, crud. I linked the wrong character sheet. I had a couple open, and must have just clicked into the wrong one. I'll resubmit my actual sheet.

Wow. That may be one of my most epic fails ever.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-18, 12:06 AM
"No LA above +1." needs rewriting then.

I believe the original consensus was that if you wanted to run an LA 2 template or race, it needed explicit approval. Saint got it, and I think someone got it with half ogre. However, LA buyoff gives the class some extra XP to play with, so it's usually done.

sofawall
2009-12-18, 01:42 AM
Part Deux. :smalltongue:

Just noticed this, but...

I think you mean Part Trois.

SurlySeraph
2009-12-18, 01:52 AM
I believe the original consensus was that if you wanted to run an LA 2 template or race, it needed explicit approval. Saint got it, and I think someone got it with half ogre. However, LA buyoff gives the class some extra XP to play with, so it's usually done.

Hm. An Incarnate Construct Warforged Ghost could buy off 1 LA and be LA 2... think it has a chance at getting approved?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-18, 01:55 AM
Hm. An Incarnate Construct Warforged Ghost could buy off 1 LA and be LA 2... think it has a chance at getting approved?

Ask Doc Roc. He's the one that made the other approvals.

ex cathedra
2009-12-18, 03:19 AM
I strongly doubt that he will let Incarnate Construct anywhere near the ToS. I could be wrong, of course.

Doc Roc
2009-12-18, 03:23 AM
1) Incarnate construct cannot reduce you to below zero.
2) Incarnate construct will never be allowed.
3) You'd lose all racial specials. What this means as a ghost? Not sure.

Infinite money tricks get you robbed by the hounds. Then eaten. It falls under any other infinite loop, except that it's known at character creation. In other words, in ToS, it is possible to die during char-gen, an honor normally reserved for Traveler. You get that much wealth, and the only way to get more bang for your buck is crafting or price reduction, both of which are rough.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-18, 12:52 PM
I actually used the drown to 0hp trick in a fight! ...But then I ran away. So all's well that ends well.

9mm
2009-12-18, 04:49 PM
In other words, in ToS, it is possible to die during char-gen, an honor normally reserved for Traveler.

and early editions of the Mechwarrior RPG.

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-18, 04:50 PM
I'm wondering if Between the Raindrops needs a lower cap, or a lower return on speed or something. Tanaric and I are dueling our Monks here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135453) and the first hit I've landed was a natural 20. My AC is 42 with buffs, and I didn't even grab a Monk's Belt, which would've let me hit 45. Total breakdown of mine is 5 Armor, 6 Dex, 2 Natural, 20 from BtR, and -1 for Vulnerable flaw. Thoughts?

ex cathedra
2009-12-18, 05:35 PM
I'm wondering if Between the Raindrops needs a lower cap, or a lower return on speed or something. Tanaric and I are dueling our Monks here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135453) and the first hit I've landed was a natural 20. It appears that we both have ACs in the 40s at least. Thoughts?

Perhaps your AB is just too low? AC above 40 was common before we released the PD monk. People just don't spend as many resources on decent AB, it seems.

Signmaker
2009-12-18, 06:53 PM
Perhaps your AB is just too low? AC above 40 was common before we released the PD monk. People just don't spend as many resources on decent AB, it seems.

More like it's harder to get a good AB than AC.

abandon hope
2009-12-18, 07:52 PM
More like it's harder to get a good AB than AC.Which is fine right? AB kills people. AC prevents a single method of being killed. Shouldn't the answer to a threat be more situational and more effective so as to encourage diversity of attacks (attacks in the general, not the rolling against AC sense)?

Master_Rahl22
2009-12-18, 09:53 PM
We both had +24 with our flurry. I suppose I'll spend one of my maneuver slots on Emerald Razor, but even our touch ACs were really high. I guess I'm just still not used to the kinds of things people manage to put together for ToS.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-18, 10:24 PM
Yeah, it is usually harder to get high AB...but it is surprisingly easy to get touch attacks instead of normal attacks. Just grab a wand of wraithstrike, with 8 cross class ranks and a couple other boosters, and you'll make the check most of the time.

And 40 isn't really that high. My last character had 55 AC after buffs, with 31 of it being touch AC.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-19, 08:54 AM
Yeah...I remember....completely negating my character because I could only hit on a 20. I've been trying to get the attack bonus up since, and already have my wand of wraithstrike.

deuxhero
2009-12-19, 02:17 PM
I forgot to mention, but there should be a rule "Jade Phoenix Mage has all wizard class skills on it's class skills list like a proofread class"

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-19, 03:34 PM
Yeah...I remember....completely negating my character because I could only hit on a 20. I've been trying to get the attack bonus up since, and already have my wand of wraithstrike.

Oh no, that wasn't my most recent character :smalltongue: That guy had lower AC than that.

And wraithstrike doesn't work on a bow, which is a slight problem for archers.

HCL
2009-12-19, 07:53 PM
I am thinking of making a character but I want to make sure on how something works

Dragonborn Tinker Gnome (Dragonlance Campaign setting)
Beguiler 2/Binder1/Anima Mage 7/Shadowcraft Mage 3

Feat 1: Versatile Spellcaster
Flaw 1: Heighten Spell
Flaw 2: Arcane Disciple: Shadow Domain
Feat 3: Improved Binding
Feat 6: Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Feat 9: Obtain Familiar
Feat 12: Draconic Familiar (Wyrmling Red Dragon)

My question is if I use Vestige Metamagic with heighten spell to heighten a Silent Image how high am I allowed to heighten it for free? I think this character will be casting 6th level spells so up to 6th level? Or can I heighten it to 7th since I can cast 7th level spells with versatile spellcaster?

I also want to make sure that this early entry trick (heighten + versatile spellcaster) to get into anima mage is alright.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-19, 07:57 PM
Ugh...any relatively easy way to get touch attacks on a bow?

Draz74
2009-12-19, 10:02 PM
Ugh...any relatively easy way to get touch attacks on a bow?

Fell Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#fellShot)?

imperialspectre
2009-12-19, 11:09 PM
Which means you can get one arrow out per round, absent shenanigans. Shenanigans might get you as many as three arrows out per round.

You could just get brilliant energy on your ammo. Expensive, but it might be worth it for an arena-type match.

Draz74
2009-12-19, 11:25 PM
You could just get brilliant energy on your ammo. Expensive, but it might be worth it for an arena-type match.

Ah, very true.

... As if Necropolitan weren't appealing enough already. :smallannoyed:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-19, 11:28 PM
Ugh...any relatively easy way to get touch attacks on a bow?Brilliant Energy. Either as a spell or by paying for the weapon enhancement. I recommend adding it to arrows rather than the bow, so you don't need to pay as much.

Edit: Or be a ninja.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-19, 11:47 PM
Be careful about turning bows into Ranged Touch attacks. It means a single spell (Ray Deflection) will make your opponent totally immune to your attacks.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-20, 01:21 AM
........I think I'm going to go make a melee character now. AC scales better than AB, and touch attacks are not only near impossible to do right on a bow, there's a spell that kills them dead. Oh well.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-20, 01:40 AM
........I think I'm going to go make a melee character now. AC scales better than AB, and touch attacks are not only near impossible to do right on a bow, there's a spell that kills them dead. Oh well.

Not to mention, it's a good spell, that protects against a variety of solid kill effects, and thus makes its way into many buff lists.

Doc Roc
2009-12-20, 01:15 PM
It hasn't come up that much, though, being a contender for the already contentious buff round slots.

imperialspectre
2009-12-20, 01:53 PM
........I think I'm going to go make a melee character now. AC scales better than AB, and touch attacks are not only near impossible to do right on a bow, there's a spell that kills them dead. Oh well.

Just as a note, AB actually scales faster than AC. The problem is that high-tier arena play is dominated by full casters, who have a myriad of ways to access AC boosts that are a great deal better than level-appropriate ones. Thus, a full caster who wants to be a tank can AC tank quite competently.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-20, 02:14 PM
I just learned the hard way that Pierce Magical Protection can overcome almost all of that, though. It's probably worth looking in to for anyone who expects to fight AC 60+ spellcasters, because it makes them more like AC 30 spellcasters.

Doc Roc
2009-12-20, 09:16 PM
I'm going to set up bug-tracking for our active issues. It'll be in place soon.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-20, 10:27 PM
I think I'll collect matches again. There's going to be a lot, so I'd appreciate it if y'all would submit yours. Also, try to link new matches here for easy collection.

Also, I think I'll design and run a dungeon soon. Anybody interested should seek a qualifier. I'm willing to check sheets and do LoS for interested contenders.

Doc Roc
2009-12-20, 11:32 PM
Vorpal is banned.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-20, 11:54 PM
Vorpal is banned.

Good, a much deserved ban, though that leaves one of my characters a very sad panda.

Doc Roc
2009-12-21, 03:09 PM
Yeah, it hurt to kill it.

Signmaker
2009-12-21, 03:37 PM
Vorpal is banned.

:Sadpanda:

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-21, 03:55 PM
:Sadpanda:Even without the 'Power drawn directly from the Random Number God' schtick, and the ability to just utterly bypass a huge chunk of defenses with a bit of luck, and the fact that later books don't take it into account when creating rerolls and auto-20 etc effects, there's the fact that it's incredibly hard to adjudicate. Just what, exactly, is vulnerable to decapitation?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-21, 04:55 PM
Here's an updated bunch of matches. I also standardized the names for no reason. Replace the original entries, instead of just adding these.

Early fights:
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
Adumbration vs. Imperialspectre. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117753)
Adumbration vs. Ratflail. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115754)
aethernox vs. Ratflail (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115745)
imperialspectre vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117703)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Yahzi (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627)
Pharaoh's fist and wykydtron vs. ozgun92 and Melamoto! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114173)
Sallera vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175)

Exhibitions
9mm vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127551)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
9mm vs. lvl 1 Sharnian again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130864)
9mm vs. Olo Demonsbane, a must read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6843840#post6843840)
9mm vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135213)
Aecus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135295)
aethernox vs. Claudius Maximus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128140)
aethernox vs. IthilinorStPete (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128073)
aethernox vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119337&)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125709)
aethernox vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132884)
aethernox vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127309)
aethernox vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118659&)
aethernox vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125833)
Claudius Maximus vs. Gaurd Juris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124885)
Claudius Maximus vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122876&)
Claudius Maximus vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122296&)
Claudius Maximus vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129637)
Claudius Maximus vs. Master_Rahl22 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123870&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120402&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120613&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120960&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121695&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo Demonsbane yet again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133191)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125362)
Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126103)
Claudius Maximus vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120575&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135220)
Claudius Maximus vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7536155)
Claudius Maximus vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130886)
Gaurd Juris vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123281)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122979)
Gaurd Juris vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125288)
Gaurd Juris vs. mikethepoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123001&)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135035)
Glimbur vs. Tanaric again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135751)
JeminiZero vs. Saph (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119488&)
JeminiZero vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119563&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119413&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119985&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122378&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane the fourth (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126382)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane once again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123286&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126135)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131071)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. PhoenixRivers a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=131087)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119279&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119963&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmaker a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121406)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492)
Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125227)
Master_Rahl22 vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135453)
Melamoto vs. Olo Demonsbane vs. waterpenguin43 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120404&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120599&)
Mushroom Ninja vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127408)
Olo Demonsbane vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135267)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Tanaric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134869)
Olo Demonsbane vs. Thelas (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127293)

Qualifiers
Claudius Maximus and Master_Rahl22 vs. PhoenixRivers and Olo Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492&)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&)
Feel free to post any I may have missed.

In order to help me keep up with new matches, I'd appreciate it if you guys started linking them here, or otherwise notifying me if you want a match archived.

Also, to help keep this up to date smoothly, could I get the password to the Test of Spite account? Or if not, could I use my reserved post to keep the match archive?

Test Of Spite
2009-12-21, 04:56 PM
Black robe is now banned.


CM: Access Granted.
You have full sanction here.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-21, 07:25 PM
So, what exactly were the vorpal exploits Sign & co. using?
Also, I have some fights I've done.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-21, 07:25 PM
So, what exactly were the vorpal exploits Sign & co. using?
Also, I have some fights I've done.

Probably the spell that gives you an auto 20.

Tanaric
2009-12-21, 07:31 PM
Surge of Fortune for an auto-20, followed by Mark of the Movanic for another 20, I believe. This coupled with the ability to hide from almost all forms of detection for long periods of time.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-21, 07:40 PM
Gotcha. Battles:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132948
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128237
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128073
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127413

Signmaker
2009-12-21, 07:41 PM
So, what exactly were the vorpal exploits Sign & co. using?
Also, I have some fights I've done.

Close but not quite, Tanar. Planar Touchstone gets me a 1 time free action auto-20. Much cheaper than taking Warmarked levels. Additionally, I had about 30 Phaant Luckstones to rely on if I magically failed the first time.

ex cathedra
2009-12-21, 07:45 PM
While not currently approved, I have a tier .5 character that I'd like to run against any t1.5s or higher. Is anyone intrigued?

Cieyrin
2009-12-21, 07:50 PM
Yeah, it hurt to kill it.

Punny. :smallbiggrin:

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-22, 04:48 AM
So, after many months of not-sheetchecking, I've gotten to work on it (on a "pretty please" request).

Ae's psion is approved for qualificatory matches.

Also, will be working on reformatting the Sage, as per Doc Roc's request. There will be no changes; it'll be just so that it looks as pretty as the War-marked (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AQy814N0Rw6OZGdzNHBid3dfM2NjbXo5Mmcy&hl=en). Don't worry, it will look very, very pretty.Redundancy intended.

ex cathedra
2009-12-22, 10:33 AM
Excellent. Does anyone happen to be interested in a match?

Signmaker
2009-12-22, 10:35 AM
Perhaps if I convert my vorpal build to something...not, and then get it approved.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-12-22, 11:32 AM
Does Flesh of Orcus count towards ECL if eaten at ECL 13?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-22, 12:06 PM
Yes.

I think I'll go ahead and say your ECL must be 13 when you enter the match.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-12-22, 12:10 PM
But use-activated and continuous items (like Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis) don't count right?

edit: Nvm, my templates don't stack

Signmaker
2009-12-22, 01:59 PM
Does Flesh of Orcus count towards ECL if eaten at ECL 13?

You're going to want to ask Jake about that one, because I've been turned down for X of Orcus items in the past.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-22, 02:22 PM
Not to mention that since Orcus is, in fact, a deity, it may qualify as a divinely-granted template.

arguskos
2009-12-22, 02:28 PM
Not to mention that since Orcus is, in fact, a deity, it may qualify as a divinely-granted template.
Sorry to correct you, but he isn't. Orcus is a demon prince. He WAS a Vestige (Tenebrous), capable of killing gods, but he is not currently a deity by any stretch of the matter.

Amphetryon
2009-12-22, 02:35 PM
Sorry to correct you, but he isn't. Orcus is a demon prince. He WAS a Vestige (Tenebrous), capable of killing gods, but he is not currently a deity by any stretch of the matter.Libris Mortis disagrees.

arguskos
2009-12-22, 02:40 PM
Libris Mortis disagrees.
And the later source, Fiendish Codex 1 clarifies he is no deity. Tenebrous came to be as the cast off remains of Orucs's divinity, when he was slain. He is not a god.

As a note, you can worship demon princes and archdevils for power. It may be that Libris Mortis is taking that approach to Orcus. It doesn't make him a god automatically though.

Oh, and sorry for the derail folks. :smallredface:

Doc Roc
2009-12-22, 05:39 PM
Grants spells?

Is a Power, in practice.
Derail is fine.

arguskos
2009-12-22, 05:41 PM
Grants spells?

Is a Power, in practice.
Derail is fine.
Fair enough. Sorry again. Now, back to lurking and learning! :smallcool:

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-12-22, 06:30 PM
Dragons and half-dragons cannot benefit
from the effects of the ring’s transformation powers,
although they can utilize the ring’s other abilities.

From the Ring of the White Wyrm, this implies that unlike the regular template, undead can benefit from the Half-Dragon template of this ring. Is this true?

Adumbration
2009-12-23, 11:28 AM
Now, I have an artificer build nearing completion (a.k.a. almost all items crafted/bought). To whom should I pm this build for review? I have done my very best to ease the process, typing out the calculations for each item in a hopefully coherent way.

I have also divided the craft reserves into 3 packages (1-5, 6-10, 11-13) as per Doc Roc in one of the earlier threads.

I have 11 days to test this build, before my vacation ends, so volunteer adversaries would be appreciated. :smallbiggrin:

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-23, 11:46 AM
Email it to the link in one of the first posts.

Adumbration
2009-12-23, 11:53 AM
Email it to the link in one of the first posts.

Ah! My mistake, for not looking close enough. Thank you.

EDIT: Something I haven't thought of before. Does a character sheet need to be checked for an exhibition?

ex cathedra
2009-12-23, 02:34 PM
Ah! My mistake, for not looking close enough. Thank you.

EDIT: Something I haven't thought of before. Does a character sheet need to be checked for an exhibition?

It's generally preferred that you have the character checked first, of course, though there have been a handful of matches in which unchecked characters took place.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-23, 05:15 PM
Ah! My mistake, for not looking close enough. Thank you.

EDIT: Something I haven't thought of before. Does a character sheet need to be checked for an exhibition?

You can have exhibitions with an unchecked sheet, though it is generally nicer to have it checked.

Looking at the submissions gathered by the front page link, it seems we don't have any new sheets from you. Are you sure that you sent it correctly? It's the "Submit Your Sheet For Approval" link near the bottom of the first post.

deuxhero
2009-12-23, 05:18 PM
Does or does not ToS use those stupid multiclass EXP penalty rules that everyone ignores? I can't find a mention of it in the first post.

Cieyrin
2009-12-23, 06:37 PM
Does or does not ToS use those stupid multiclass EXP penalty rules that everyone ignores? I can't find a mention of it in the first post.

I think it's a rather moot point unless you win a qualifier and go into the dungeon proper, as the lump sum of XP you start with isn't reduced by unbalanced leveling. The only reductions are if you use your XP to pay off LA or crafting or Necropolitan transformation or some other crazy thing.

Doc Roc
2009-12-24, 02:49 AM
We actually do use them.

Adumbration
2009-12-24, 02:59 AM
You can have exhibitions with an unchecked sheet, though it is generally nicer to have it checked.

Looking at the submissions gathered by the front page link, it seems we don't have any new sheets from you. Are you sure that you sent it correctly? It's the "Submit Your Sheet For Approval" link near the bottom of the first post.

I have not sent it yet, actually. After making the "final" calculations, I've discovered that I have still 38 000 to spend. I think I removed some items at one point, and then forgot to deduce them from the total spent. All fixed now. I also have to work out the skills and HP, but once they're done, I'll send it in

EDIT: I believe it is complete. Sent for review.

EDIT 2: Anyone up for an exhibition in a few days?

And a question for DMs. This does not affect my build, but will affect how it is played:
What is the interaction between magic items generating a continuous effect - such as Cube of Force - and the Glove of storing? The duration will naturally be ongoing, but the question is whether the effect will continue to exude while "held in stasis" by the glove, or if that is suspended.

sofawall
2009-12-24, 05:03 AM
I have not sent it yet, actually. After making the "final" calculations, I've discovered that I have still 38 000 to spend. I think I removed some items at one point, and then forgot to deduce them from the total spent. All fixed now. I also have to work out the skills and HP, but once they're done, I'll send it in

EDIT: I believe it is complete. Sent for review.

EDIT 2: Anyone up for an exhibition in a few days?

And a question for DMs. This does not affect my build, but will affect how it is played:
What is the interaction between magic items generating a continuous effect - such as Cube of Force - and the Glove of storing? The duration will naturally be ongoing, but the question is whether the effect will continue to exude while "held in stasis" by the glove, or if that is suspended.

Only read me if you are Adumbration, and I mean it!
Do you mean with regards to duration, or it still being active when it pops out of the glove again, or what? Being cagey with the DMs will often lead to us not knowing what the heck you are talking about, and it is best to just say what the trick is and we'll tell you if it works.

Adumbration
2009-12-24, 09:06 AM
Only read me if you are Adumbration, and I mean it!
Do you mean with regards to duration, or it still being active when it pops out of the glove again, or what? Being cagey with the DMs will often lead to us not knowing what the heck you are talking about, and it is best to just say what the trick is and we'll tell you if it works.

Sofawall (or other DMs) only:
Well, the basic gist of the trick is that it's a free action to use the glove of storing. Activate the cube on the buff round, keep it in your hand between your turns - protected by it - and during your turn store it in stasis, allowing you to attack at will. At the end of your turn take it out again.

However, this trick relies on the interpretion of the glove of storing. Does "held in stasis" mean that the force wall effect is not in effect around the cube? That is the optimal interpretion for my build, and necessary one for this trick to work.

The other interpretion is that the glove merely shrinks the cube, allowing the walls of force to stay around you. This interpretion, while not critical to my build, will change the original idea to one that will merely stop the first blows, before the opponent catches on.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 09:46 AM
"You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures."

"Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned."
"Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned."
"Gate can no longer be used to call or summon."

Am I missing something or is the bolded unneeded?

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 10:01 AM
"You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures."

"Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned."
"Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned."
"Gate can no longer be used to call or summon."

Am I missing something or is the bolded unneeded?

The Summon X Y spells?

9mm
2009-12-24, 10:56 AM
"You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures."

"Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned."
"Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned."
"Gate can no longer be used to call or summon."

Am I missing something or is the bolded unneeded?

summons; this rule was interduced to deal with minionmancers; who could realisticly come to the fight with a small (or large) army ported in during buff rounds.

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 11:43 AM
summons; this rule was interduced to deal with minionmancers; who could realisticly come to the fight with a small (or large) army ported in during buff rounds.

*cougholocough*

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-24, 01:39 PM
*cougholocough*

Fiendbinder is the coolest class ever. And Dread Necromancers can also do it pretty well. :smallsmile:

sofawall
2009-12-24, 02:37 PM
Sofawall (or other DMs) only:
Well, the basic gist of the trick is that it's a free action to use the glove of storing. Activate the cube on the buff round, keep it in your hand between your turns - protected by it - and during your turn store it in stasis, allowing you to attack at will. At the end of your turn take it out again.

However, this trick relies on the interpretion of the glove of storing. Does "held in stasis" mean that the force wall effect is not in effect around the cube? That is the optimal interpretion for my build, and necessary one for this trick to work.

The other interpretion is that the glove merely shrinks the cube, allowing the walls of force to stay around you. This interpretion, while not critical to my build, will change the original idea to one that will merely stop the first blows, before the opponent catches on.


I would say that the walls o force remain active, but inside the glove. Unfortunately, I don't think we have room for that. I have no ruling yet, mainly because I've yet to look up the item (source?) but you can expect one by... the end of the month. Xmas will probably keep me AFB 'till then.

Adumbration
2009-12-24, 02:41 PM
I would say that the walls o force remain active, but inside the glove. Unfortunately, I don't think we have room for that. I have no ruling yet, mainly because I've yet to look up the item (source?) but you can expect one by... the end of the month. Xmas will probably keep me AFB 'till then.

Cube of Force. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cubeofForce)
Glove of storing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring)

I understand. Sigh.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-24, 02:49 PM
If you have Improved precise shot and mark of the shooting star, can you AoO people with cover?

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 02:52 PM
EDIT 2: Anyone up for an exhibition in a few days?

I have a psion who's been waiting for one. :smallredface:

sofawall
2009-12-24, 02:56 PM
Cube of Force. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#cubeofForce)
Glove of storing. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#gloveofStoring)

I understand. Sigh.


Claudius or Doc Roc might have an answer before me, remember. Also, the Cube of Force is going to break in roughly one hit from anything in this arena.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 03:07 PM
summons; this rule was interduced to deal with minionmancers; who could realisticly come to the fight with a small (or large) army ported in during buff rounds.

Hence why I bolded called (that are separate from summons) as all methods of calling do not exist in ToS.

sofawall
2009-12-24, 03:14 PM
Hence why I bolded called (that are separate from summons) as all methods of calling do not exist in ToS.

I do not think what you say is truth.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-24, 03:17 PM
I do not think what you say is truth.

+1. We've not outright banned calling. We've banned many of the ways to do it, but, as we've not made a blanket ban on calling, were someone to sneakily find a way to call creatures, they're still under the restriction.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 03:29 PM
What called spell is allowed? Gate doesn't do it anymore, Planer Binding and Planar Ally (and their derivatives, so that means the one that calls fey is out) are baned.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-24, 03:33 PM
A magician never reveals his secrets. ;)

sofawall
2009-12-24, 03:39 PM
A magician never reveals his secrets. ;)

I prefer martial characters.

Gate derivatives are not banned, and not banned from calling. If that isn't enough, well, I dunno. Google.

deuxhero
2009-12-24, 03:40 PM
Hmm... Class ability?

Signmaker
2009-12-24, 06:47 PM
You shall either have to simply see, or seek it out on your own. It's more fun to do the latter, I've found. Even if you don't find what you're hunting, you get to see quite a bit along the way.

sofawall
2009-12-24, 07:42 PM
You shall either have to simply see, or seek it out on your own. It's more fun to do the latter, I've found. Even if you don't find what you're hunting, you get to see quite a bit along the way.

I don't even know three quarters of the wondrous items in core, never mind the MiC.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-24, 09:02 PM
If you have Improved precise shot and mark of the shooting star, can you AoO people with cover?

Bumping to front page...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-24, 10:20 PM
I'm starting to think that free actions, as a whole, are broken. It seems like any build that uses them for anything ends up doing action abuse.

ex cathedra
2009-12-24, 10:59 PM
Bumping to front page...

No. minimum length

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-24, 11:45 PM
I'm starting to think that free actions, as a whole, are broken. It seems like any build that uses them for anything ends up doing action abuse.

They can be. The issue isn't with free actions, so much as it is with tactically sound free actions.

Adumbration
2009-12-25, 02:10 AM
Claudius or Doc Roc might have an answer before me, remember. Also, the Cube of Force is going to break in roughly one hit from anything in this arena.

DMs only (forgot to type that to couple last spoilers):
Sometimes a single round where your enemy has revealed himself by attacking in vain can be enough.

I'm hoping an answer before my vacation is over, but for any exhibition I'll be playing in near future, I won't use the cube of force.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-25, 12:56 PM
Adumbration (and DMs):
This is really a weird interaction. I can see a few possibilities:


The Glove shrinks the Cube, but not its accompanying Walls of Force, because they are either a separate item from the cube, a magical effect (and thus not an item), or at least something you can't hold in one hand. I don't think much is accomplished, though you do have a free hand now.
The Cube and the Walls of Force are both shrunken into the Glove. Squish.
The Cube and the Walls are magically transported into the Glove and also instantaneously shrunken, and thus do not crush you.

I personally find the first possibility to be the most likely, that the Walls are not an "item" under the definition of what the glove can store, but I welcome debate from you or from the other DMs.

If they are a valid target, we have to figure out how the Glove stores items. All it says is that they "disappear". Do they teleport? When do they shrink: before, after, or during the transportation? Does the shrinking happen instantaneously?

Adumbration
2009-12-25, 01:21 PM
Adumbration (and DMs):
This is really a weird interaction. I can see a few possibilities:


The Glove shrinks the Cube, but not its accompanying Walls of Force, because they are either a separate item from the cube, a magical effect (and thus not an item), or at least something you can't hold in one hand. I don't think much is accomplished, though you do have a free hand now.
The Cube and the Walls of Force are both shrunken into the Glove. Squish.
The Cube and the Walls are magically transported into the Glove and also instantaneously shrunken, and thus do not crush you.

I personally find the first possibility to be the most likely, that the Walls are not an "item" under the definition of what the glove can store, but I welcome debate from you or from the other DMs.

If they are a valid target, we have to figure out how the Glove stores items. All it says is that they "disappear". Do they teleport? When do they shrink: before, after, or during the transportation? Does the shrinking happen instantaneously?

DMs only:
You know, if it helps, I originally thought that the glove stored the items in an extradimensional space, like a bag of holding. That would be logical, given the effect, but is not mentioned in the description.

But that was my first impression. Having read the description, the first option does seem most likely.

Doc Roc
2009-12-25, 04:02 PM
I side with CM.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-27, 04:16 PM
DM's only please:

Do the Dex penalties from nets stack? How about Nets and Lassos?

Character concept: Cowboy Beebop: Bard, snowflake Wardancer, who drops his opponents dex to 0, then proceeds to dance all over them. The pun was just too good to let go.

imperialspectre
2009-12-28, 04:44 PM
Shneeky + DMs:
Penalties to ability scores generally do not stack with themselves, but do stack with other penalties. However, they generally do not reduce ability scores below 1, so you would have to come up with some kind of ability damage to do so.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-28, 06:49 PM
imperialspectre:

DM's only please
ShneekyTheLost and DMs:
Not only do they not stack with themselves, it seems to me that they might not even stack with each other, since they both cause the entangled condition. You might, however, have a case that they do stack with each other since the lasso mentions "partially entangled" and does not reduce speed like the real condition. For the moment, I'm on the fence on whether this constitutes a separate condition/penalty.

I'm pretty sure that mixing ability damage and ability penalty will not overcome the penalty's inability to reduce a stat below one. If you give an opponent with 10 dexterity a -6 dex penalty, then dealt him 5 dex damage, he ends up at 1 dex.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-28, 09:50 PM
imperialspectre:

ShneekyTheLost and DMs:
Not only do they not stack with themselves, it seems to me that they might not even stack with each other, since they both cause the entangled condition. You might, however, have a case that they do stack with each other since the lasso mentions "partially entangled" and does not reduce speed like the real condition. For the moment, I'm on the fence on whether this constitutes a separate condition/penalty.

I'm pretty sure that mixing ability damage and ability penalty will not overcome the penalty's inability to reduce a stat below one. If you give an opponent with 10 dexterity a -6 dex penalty, then dealt him 5 dex damage, he ends up at 1 dex.

DM's

You mean that you would have to inflict enough ability *damage* to bring the original stat to 0, even if penalties to the stat are already applied?

Could a clarification and a solid ruling please be presented concerning this topic on stacking of penalties and damage, so I know if the concept works or if I have to try something else?

Amphetryon
2009-12-30, 12:30 AM
DocRoc:
1. Can a VoP character utilize the Apprentice feats without violating their vow?

2. Is a Sentinel of Bharrai allowed to take Multiattack or INA? They are not requirements for the PrC - or any subsequent ones in the build - so I wonder if they are outside the "Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement" stipulation.

Thelas
2009-12-30, 05:33 PM
I respectfully would like to inform those of you who have won qualifiers that I have my dungeon ready enough to accept entries at the moment. So... party of 4 qualified characters (who have done their shopping-in-Sigil) will be needed. This will probably be the easiest dungeon that anyone makes, for that matter... Still, brain use and mapping is needed.

9mm
2009-12-30, 05:35 PM
I respectfully would like to inform those of you who have won qualifiers that I have my dungeon ready enough to accept entries at the moment. So... party of 4 qualified characters (who have done their shopping-in-Sigil) will be needed. This will probably be the easiest dungeon that anyone makes, for that matter... Still, brain use and mapping is needed.

I has a
positivley ancient Swordsage/Ijitsu master that is qualified who hasn't seen a dungeon. count me in.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-31, 12:56 PM
I have a cleric that I know has been through a qualifier, but doesn't have his opponents' equipment. So would someone else like to do an exhibition match with me, or will I have to hunt down those other characters?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-31, 04:29 PM
Which match was this? There's a possibility I have the sheets available to give you the opponent's equipment. I won't be able to help much if it's a very early match though.

And I think you're looking for a qualifier, not an exhibition, if you're trying to get into the dungeon.

Adumbration
2009-12-31, 04:36 PM
Do early matches count as qualifiers, by the way?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-31, 04:43 PM
Which match was this? There's a possibility I have the sheets available to give you the opponent's equipment. I won't be able to help much if it's a very early match though.

And I think you're looking for a qualifier, not an exhibition, if you're trying to get into the dungeon.

It's fine...I think it was before you started sheet checking.

It was the 3 way match that I fought in. I got waterpenguin43's sheet, but melamoto already deleted his...so...do I just take one person's stuff? Or do I maybe (since I DID beat two people)...give myself 55k to spend, assuming I sold all of his stuff? DMs?

And yes, I meant qualifier, though the point is essentially moot now.

And yes, Adumbration, I believe they do.

Adumbration
2009-12-31, 04:47 PM
Well, in that case I do have a qualifying character, although it may well be outdated when compared to these modern monstrosities. I just need to find Ratflail's old character sheet to loot.

EDIT: Actually, I do have the loot. It was a poor one, due to the spellstitching, but it's marked down.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-31, 04:51 PM
If you can not find your opponent's sheet, you're fine just taking 55k.

Adumbration
2009-12-31, 04:56 PM
If you can not find your opponent's sheet, you're fine just taking 55k.

See my above post. I don't actually have the sheet, but going through my inbox, I see that I looted the corpse by my exchange with Doc.

The unfortunate thing was that I lost approximately 25k in loot because my opponent was spellstitched. :smallfrown:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-31, 04:59 PM
If you can not find your opponent's sheet, you're fine just taking 55k.

Great! I'll finish up my shopping and then I'll be ready to join your game Thelas.

Doc Roc
2010-01-01, 06:13 AM
And this is why we use a central archive now. Holy god, how did we ever not?

Amphetryon
2010-01-01, 09:13 AM
There's now a checked Tier 4 awaiting a qualifier match. :)

Glimbur
2010-01-01, 12:17 PM
There's now a checked Tier 4 awaiting a qualifier match. :)

Is there a better way for us to challenge each other than posting in the thread? Also, I have a maybe Tier 4 that needs a real match instead of getting murdered in round 1, so I could fight you.

I might still get murdered in round one

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-01, 12:52 PM
There's now a checked Tier 4 awaiting a qualifier match. :)

Hold your horses there, I haven't actually approved your sheet.

There are still a few problems. Once you fix them, you're approved (Amphetyon only please):
You should have one more bonus Exalted feat, gained at first level from VoP.

Did you get a response from Jake about qualifying for INA and Multiattack, or about the Apprentice feat? You'll have to change those if you can't take them.

Is there a better way for us to challenge each other than posting in the thread?

You could use the ToS chat or arrange via PM, but I like challenges issued in the thread because it alerts me to the matches, which I can then monitor and archive. It's also great when you're willing to fight anybody, because everyone's going to see your request for a match.

Amphetryon
2010-01-01, 01:08 PM
Claudius:
DocRoc approved both multiattack and INA, as they were not based on abilities from a feat or spell, but from a class ability.

I'll happily add another feat, though every time I count them, that puts me over by one.

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-01, 01:13 PM
Amphetryon:
You should have 9 exalted feats: two you've taken yourself, and seven from VoP.

You should have 5 feats from levels, two flaw feats, a human bonus feat, and Track and Heroic Spirit as bonus feats. Since two of these are spent on Sacred Vow and VoP, you should have a total of 17 feats.

I think the extra feat comes from the first level of Vow of Poverty, which does grant a bonus exalted feat, even though the table does not reflect this.

Amphetryon
2010-01-01, 01:24 PM
Claudius:
Sheet updated with another Exalted feat. DocRoc is out of town today; I'll wait to start a game until he gets back if his official say so is required rather than my statement of same (a reasonable choice).

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-01, 01:39 PM
Amphetryon:
Could you provide me with a quote or something?

I think I can just trust you though. I doubt you'd try to cheat, when you'd almost surely get caught as soon as Doc Roc got back to deny he gave you permission. You can go do a qualifier.
Sheet approved.

Glimbur
2010-01-01, 08:20 PM
Sheet approved.

That's enough for me. Let's talk buff rounds and arena in PM's, and put the link to the fighting thread up here for Claudius.

Claudius Maximus
2010-01-01, 08:52 PM
If it comes up, I'm willing to do LoS for this match.