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Lord Loss
2009-12-15, 10:02 AM
Now I think I just screwed my party. I was annoyed at the ease of giving them previously easy encounters. I read stat blocks wrong. I messed up.

In short, when the last seesion ended, my party of two, a First level Champion of Shade (The on made by Rich Burlew, evil version (See Gaming section) ) who uses this class to porteay that he's half demon. He occaisionally has outbursts of Demonic energy and...

A Barbarian. No basckstory yet.

I pitted them against 8 kobolds, 2 Broodling Kythons and a Juvenile Kython, for a total EL of... 5! This wouldn't be so bad if they were a party of 4. They're two, though. They're very, very resourceful, but don't get the concept of RUNNING AWAY!!!

What Do I do?

Tavar
2009-12-15, 10:06 AM
Well...one other thing to consider is that action advantage is huge, and all told the enemies have 11 actions to their 2. Add in the fact that the first 3 or so levels of DnD are bascially a random number game, and the players probably didn't have much of a chance, and I'm not even sure how good the Kython's are.

As for what you can do, what do you mean?

JeenLeen
2009-12-15, 10:12 AM
If you want your PCs to stay alive, you have the enemies capture them. Perhaps they work or someone, or are part of a cult needing sacrifices. Once under guard, things could occur such that the PCs can escape.

It can be disappointing, but a deus ex machina rescuer could arrive. If you want them to go on a certain storyarc, that might be the plot hook you use. (Although I know such NPCs are rather frowned upon and can make players feel that you are going too easy. However, I think if done very rarely it can be effective.)

To a lesser degree, someone moderately stronger shows up, shoots one of the kobolds and kills it, and yells at the PCs to run before enemy reinforcements show up. If they still don't get the hint, then the death might teach them. How attached are your players to their characters?

Lord Loss
2009-12-15, 10:14 AM
Well, the avatar's at two HP, so my PCs will be butchered in a matter of turns. All the Pcs are completely surrounded, and the Kythons and Kobolds are at high health... How do i save my players, short of divine intervention.

They also have a mysteious talisman harboring the soul of a girl who was killed by the Kython, when they first appeared, many many years ago. She may have some undetermined magicl ability. They are in the bottom of an inhabited keep, claering out the bottom chambers and sealing the doors leading to the swamp so no creatures may enter. So, basically, anything that could intervene to save them that doesn't make it clear that i'm Godmoding the PCs (the campaign will, late on, gain a horror subtheme so i don't want them thinking they're remotely near immortality).

EDIT:

I thought of capturing them, which could lead on interesting adventure, but I had promised my players they would soon have a chance to visit the city... thsi could be a very twisted way of doing it. Thanks for the idea!

Sliver
2009-12-15, 10:27 AM
deus ex machina is always a great solution, and players love it. Especially when it happens all the time. Describe it at great length and show how awesome the random NPC you just introduced is, players love it. Honest.

thubby
2009-12-15, 10:32 AM
fights are rarely to the death in real life.
if they kill the big guy, or almost everyone else, have them call for a retreat (or turn it into a route)

Grumman
2009-12-15, 10:35 AM
Throwing a CR 5 encounter at a half-strength Lvl 1 party is already kind of dodgy, unless they had a good reason to believe they were going somewhere especially dangerous.

Lord Loss
2009-12-15, 10:42 AM
Right, so Here's what I figure as possibilities:

A) The PCs get kiddernappered.

B) The talisman makes the trapped Soul of the young girl appear in some ghostly form and pwn the Kython, revealing some part of the storyline along the way. She's actually trapped in the Blin Eterneties, a space between the Worlds, along with the parents of the main character.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 10:46 AM
Throwing a CR 5 encounter at a half-strength Lvl 1 party is already kind of dodgy, unless they had a good reason to believe they were going somewhere especially dangerous.

"kind of"? Seriously, as someone else mentioned level 1 is like flipping a coin. Simple chance can and often will kill someone off. Don't make it any worse than it already is. Later on, yeah sure it's perfectly reasonable to throw things well over CR at them in most cases, but don't do it at level 1.

As far as fixing it? Kill them. The other options are going to make them feel worse in the long run. At least killing them will give them a sense of mortality for their next characters (and apparently one of them doesn't even have a backstory anyways, so you're not losing a lot).

taltamir
2009-12-15, 10:53 AM
CR is horribly horribly broken...
Just recently my party of level 11 characters faced two EL15...
The first was an avatar of fire and some fire-rock golems... it was a tough battle but we kicked their ass.
The second we were supposed to run... it was a dragon with 22HD and epic feats (for some reason, true dragons EL is 2/3 their HD).

It had the saves 26, 22, 24. It had an AC in the sky, it would only miss on a nat 1, it had 6 attacks a round that poison you with a venom that deals 20 damage per round until you die, the dragon dies, or you get a "heal" spell.

This monster was ALSO a CR15.
We teleported away.


As far as fixing it? Kill them. The other options are going to make them feel worse in the long run. At least killing them will give them a sense of mortality for their next characters (and apparently one of them doesn't even have a backstory anyways, so you're not losing a lot).

This, live, learn, and don't do this mistake again.

Lord Loss
2009-12-15, 10:56 AM
I can't kill them for now because one of the players gave me SEVEN PAGES of backstory. I think I'll just make the talisman save them, making it look like it was all planned out.:smallbiggrin:. Right? Right?

taltamir
2009-12-15, 10:57 AM
I can't kill them for now because one of the players gave me SEVEN PAGES of backstory. I think I'll just make the talisman save them, making it look like it was all planned out.:smallbiggrin:. Right? Right?

then say "look guys, I messed up, lets start over and pretend this last session didn't happen".

Tavar
2009-12-15, 10:59 AM
then say "look guys, I messed up, lets start over and pretend this last session didn't happen".

This. is probably your best option.

Temet Nosce
2009-12-15, 11:01 AM
then say "look guys, I messed up, lets start over and pretend this last session didn't happen".

Aye, this is pretty much the only remaining reasonable option in that case.

Lord Loss
2009-12-15, 11:04 AM
So, no talisman overload? :smallfrown:

More seriously though, yeah this doesn't sound too bad. I guess i'll do that...



My DM Pride just died.

Killer Angel
2009-12-15, 11:04 AM
They also have a mysteious talisman harboring the soul of a girl who was killed by the Kython, when they first appeared, many many years ago. She may have some undetermined magicl ability.

A mysterious talisman, with a spirit of a girl killed by their actual enemy?
Problem solved.
The spirit appears, and with a flashing light they are dimension-doored away.
While they still hear in the not-so-distance the raging scream of the demons, prived of the killing, the spirit-girl tell something on the style "now you know what kind of enemies lurk in the shadows. That kython and his master killed me long ago, and his presence awakes me. 'til you'll fight them, I'll help you, but i can do it directly only two other time, and my powers alone aren't sufficient to kill'em. Remember: be careful".
Now, this is no more a deus ex machina: it's a thing that explain something 'bout the talisman. Now they know that the spirit can help them, with moderate power (surely no more than a 4° lev. spell) and not forever.
Then, the bearer of the talisman, can gain a power, such a +1 insight bonus on something, or the ability to cast a "detect chaos / evil" 3/day...
Your TPK has became the link to develope a magical item and a story (who is the kython's master?).
It seems that you've planned all of this! :smallwink:

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 11:52 AM
If they don't know how to run away...NEW CHARACTER TIME!!!WOOHOOO!!!!

HARLEYDUDE
2009-12-15, 01:29 PM
A mysterious talisman, with a spirit of a girl killed by their actual enemy?
Problem solved.
The spirit appears, and with a flashing light they are dimension-doored away.
While they still hear in the not-so-distance the raging scream of the demons, prived of the killing, the spirit-girl tell something on the style "now you know what kind of enemies lurk in the shadows. That kython and his master killed me long ago, and his presence awakes me. 'til you'll fight them, I'll help you, but i can do it directly only two other time, and my powers alone aren't sufficient to kill'em. Remember: be careful".
Now, this is no more a deus ex machina: it's a thing that explain something 'bout the talisman. Now they know that the spirit can help them, with moderate power (surely no more than a 4° lev. spell) and not forever.
Then, the bearer of the talisman, can gain a power, such a +1 insight bonus on something, or the ability to cast a "detect chaos / evil" 3/day...
Your TPK has became the link to develope a magical item and a story (who is the kython's master?).
It seems that you've planned all of this! :smallwink:

I totally second this idea
HD

Tyndmyr
2009-12-15, 03:10 PM
Im torn. On one hand, a CL 5ish encounter is blatantly inappropriate for a pair of level ones(presumably. I didn't see the level, but it appears to be a just starting campaign). On the other, some things you really should run away from, and blindly attacking everything is a poor strategy.

If they think you wont kill them, then said hack and slash attitude is likely to remain the same, or worsen. If you want to give em a chance, use the necklace as some sort of mcGuffin to help them out. Perhaps some sort of anti-kython utility. Look at level 3 spells to figure something appropriate and helpful out that wont automatically win the game for them.

But hey, if they have their chances to escape, and are duly warned, but ignore it...time for them to realize that anyone can die after all.

Thatguyoverther
2009-12-15, 03:20 PM
I would deeply consider just letting them die.

They're level one characters, one without a back story so the players aren't that invested. Also it'll help enforce the idea that sometimes you just can't win and have to run.

Alternatively have the kobolds catch them and keep them as cattle. They are tied and fed, but could be killed at a moments notice if somebody gets hungry. I'd let them escape but only narrowly, maybe even killing one of them and introducing the players new character as a rescuer.

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 03:26 PM
Are they in a cave? Have a dwarven mining expedition show up by bursting through a wall with a huge drilling rig, and give the PCs a chance to run away in the ensuing chaos.

Alternatively you could have some sort of environmental event occur that lets them escape- a collapse, an earthquake, lava.

Or they could be brought down to negative HP, and find themselves waking up cocooned, Aliens style.

Lord Loss
2009-12-16, 06:16 AM
WHat spell or other effect could the talisman have? I was thinking something along the Lines of Gate or Killing Shadows (from TOM) or an other flavorful spell. Any ideas?

DonEsteban
2009-12-16, 07:44 AM
A mysterious talisman, with a spirit of a girl killed by their actual enemy?
Problem solved.
The spirit appears, and with a flashing light they are dimension-doored away.


That. If it let's you evolve your back story, that's genius. Let it happen the moment before one of the characters is brought to negative HP. Something like a contingency controlled by the spirit. With only very few uses. Gaseous form might also work. It shouldn't be too powerful...

And write 100 times "I will not throw EL 5 encounters at EL1 partys". Don't use copy&paste.

Shardan
2009-12-16, 08:26 AM
Kobolds capture them alive and sell them to slavers. They wake up unarmed and unarmored in a forced labor camp. This can be a one off before they escape or use that to plant a whole storyline.

Amiel
2009-12-16, 08:30 AM
You can always announce what the players faced were in reality manifested in their dreams. They had entered a dream scape that was so intimately real, that their consciousnesses could not escape and so had to 'live out the dream sequence' in full.
Of course, what occurred in the dream does/did not necessarily affect them in the campaign proper.

Another idea is that the players could have played out a prophetic vision, that they have glimpsed their future, and so may feel the desire to modify it accordingly.

bosssmiley
2009-12-16, 10:40 AM
I pitted them against 8 kobolds, 2 Broodling Kythons and a Juvenile Kython, for a total EL of... 5! This wouldn't be so bad if they were a party of 4. They're two, though. They're very, very resourceful, but don't get the concept of RUNNING AWAY!!!

What Do I do?

TPK them until they appreciate that there are four equally valid options in the famous chapter heading:


"MELEE RESOLUTION - CONQUER, WITHDRAW, SURRENDER OR DIE!"
-- Holmes Basic D&D

If you're feeling generous you can run the TPK, then rewind to the bad decision point and let the players try again. It's a useful learning experience. :smallbiggrin:


I can't kill them for now because one of the players gave me SEVEN PAGES of backstory. I think I'll just make the talisman save them, making it look like it was all planned out.:smallbiggrin:. Right? Right?

What is this? D&D or creative writing class? A seven page backstory deserves a rapid shanking by kobolds. :smallamused:

Killer Angel
2009-12-16, 11:21 AM
What is this? D&D or creative writing class? A seven page backstory deserves a rapid shanking by kobolds. :smallamused:

You're an evil person. A 7 pages BG deserves awful ripercussions, but not deadly ones at first level. Leave the poor guy enjoy a little his hard work... :smallwink:

taltamir
2009-12-16, 11:35 AM
Im torn. On one hand, a CL 5ish encounter is blatantly inappropriate for a pair of level ones(presumably. I didn't see the level, but it appears to be a just starting campaign). On the other, some things you really should run away from, and blindly attacking everything is a poor strategy.

If they think you wont kill them, then said hack and slash attitude is likely to remain the same, or worsen. If you want to give em a chance, use the necklace as some sort of mcGuffin to help them out. Perhaps some sort of anti-kython utility. Look at level 3 spells to figure something appropriate and helpful out that wont automatically win the game for them.

But hey, if they have their chances to escape, and are duly warned, but ignore it...time for them to realize that anyone can die after all.

Duly warned is important... they have been conditioned from CRPGs, if it is there, you can kill it at your level...
I think some metagame interruption to explain that sometimes they should run the hell away or use diplomacy because they will NOT survive is appropriate.

Discuss the options with them, discuss the ramification, explain that death is possible especially if your only approach is "chaaaaarge" and see if you can come to an agreement, out of character, on what should happen. Do they want to see their guys saved by a mcguffin? roll new characters? replay the encounter (and this time not run away)...

Also, consider starting them at higher then level 1.

Jan Mattys
2009-12-16, 11:51 AM
You can always announce what the players faced were in reality manifested in their dreams. They had entered a dream scape that was so intimately real, that their consciousnesses could not escape and so had to 'live out the dream sequence' in full.
Of course, what occurred in the dream does/did not necessarily affect them in the campaign proper.

Another idea is that the players could have played out a prophetic vision, that they have glimpsed their future, and so may feel the desire to modify it accordingly.

Even better, they experienced PAST, i.e. the death of the girl.

Shardan
2009-12-16, 04:07 PM
It could also be an illusury attack by the BBEG...

Another_Poet
2009-12-16, 04:59 PM
The kobolds & co could run away, afraid of something that roars loudly deeper in the dungeon/cave/whatever. AKA the Mines of Moriah solution.

The kobolds & co could be diseased, and drop dead mid-fight.

The kobolds & co could demand tribute or offer to trade rather than fight.

You could take a page from 4e and have each enemy have only 1 hp. Or all the kobolds at least. They're minions so they hit hard but drop easy.

A PC could discover that their weapon is actually an artefact meant for destroying kobolds and other draco-kin. (Assuming kythons are also draconic in some way; not familiar with the race/species.)

It could turn out the Kythons and Kobolds are not on the same side. The PCs can join in on one side or hope they both destroy each other.

You could talk to your players out-of-game and explain that you messed up, and ask how they would like to solve it (saved by NPC, taken prisoner, die fighting in glorious combat, etc.). Humble pie ain't for everybody but a bit of open honesty can solve many a problem between friends.

Hope these help.

ap