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taltamir
2009-12-15, 12:06 PM
I just realized that even on a critical hit to the vitals, a dagger cannot kill most level 1 characters. I am not talking about -10 kill, I mean down.
A character has max HP on level 1, they only roll for later levels. A dagger does 1d4 + str.

a str 10 person who stabs someone with a dagger and crits only does 2d4 damage. On a max roll that is 8 damage. Fighters, barbarians, and many others will have more than that with a con10, monks and other d6 characters are likely to have more due to con.

In short, a perfect strike with a dagger to the vitals, dealing a max damage on a crit, cannot even knock unconscious a person, nor can it endager their life in any way shape or form (you must be at negative HP to be in mortal danger from an injury)

Boci
2009-12-15, 12:08 PM
Until you take SA attack into account, but even then the maximum is only 14.

AtwasAwamps
2009-12-15, 12:09 PM
And a housecat can effectively murder people.

HOORAY D&D

SurlySeraph
2009-12-15, 12:09 PM
Yep, a commoner with a dagger can't one-shot someone. But a sneak attacking rogue, or Muscles McProbablyShouldBeUsingASword can do it.

pffh
2009-12-15, 12:09 PM
Until you take SA attack into account, but even then the maximum is only 14.

14 at first level is still plenty. Even if you give everyone 18 con that 14 would take down every class except the barbarian and he would only have 2hp left.

Setra
2009-12-15, 12:10 PM
I just realized that even on a critical hit to the vitals, a dagger cannot kill most level 1 characters. I am not talking about -10 kill, I mean down.
A character has max HP on level 1, they only roll for later levels. A dagger does 1d4 + str.

a str 10 person who stabs someone with a dagger and crits only does 2d4 damage. On a max roll that is 8 damage. Fighters, barbarians, and many others will have more than that with a con10, monks and other d6 characters are likely to have more due to con.

In short, a perfect strike with a dagger to the vitals, dealing a max damage on a crit, cannot even knock unconscious a person, nor can it endager their life in any way shape or form (you must be at negative HP to be in mortal danger from an injury)
Why are you assuming 10 str, but giving others more than con 10?

Also, people with a class level tend to be better than normal people, yes?

Saph
2009-12-15, 12:11 PM
Well, that's kind of how it is in real life. One stab from a dagger is typically not going to kill someone unless the knifeman catches his victim in a position where they're helpless.

People killed in knife fights (as opposed to assassinations) don't generally die from one stab wound, they die from lots and lots of stab wounds.

Boci
2009-12-15, 12:11 PM
14 at first level is still plenty. Even if you give everyone 18 con that 14 would take down every class except the barbarian and he would only have 2hp left.

Yes but a rogue critting with a dagger has only a 1 to 48 chance of dealing 14 damage. Unless my maths is wrong, which is a distinct possibility.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-15, 12:18 PM
Yes but a rogue critting with a dagger has only a 1 to 48 chance of dealing 14 damage. Unless my maths is wrong, which is a distinct possibility.

Not sure how you're getting a 1/48 chance.

Boci
2009-12-15, 12:20 PM
Not sure how you're getting a 1/48 chance.

Yep, I screwed up my maths.

dsmiles
2009-12-15, 12:23 PM
And a housecat can effectively murder people.

HOORAY D&D

Alternatively, one housecat is more than a match for, like, 8-10 standard kobolds in straight up combat. Playtested this with a few friends.

BobVosh
2009-12-15, 12:24 PM
Should be like 48. 19-20 (10%)for a crit threat, 10-20 (55%)for a confirmation. So 1/10 * 11/20=11/200, or 5.5%. So very close to 1/48

Nevermind I did something wrong somewhere in there.

Shademan
2009-12-15, 12:25 PM
I dunno... My lv1 channeler have 9HP.
9-14=down and in minus. he's outta the combat anyhow.
Daggers are meant to be backups or specialist(assassin) weapons anyways

Jan Mattys
2009-12-15, 12:25 PM
Well, that's kind of how it is in real life. One stab from a dagger is typically not going to kill someone unless the knifeman catches his victim in a position where they're helpless.

People killed in knife fights (as opposed to assassinations) don't generally die from one stab wound, they die from lots and lots of stab wounds.

Yes and no.

Yes, what you say is more or less true.

No, because you don't count that we're not talking about average stab, but THE perfect knife stab possible. Max damage AND crit.

If I were to deal you the perfect stabbing with an average lenght kitchen knife, I think it's reasonable to assume that one hit would prove fatal to you.

Boci
2009-12-15, 12:25 PM
Should be like 48. 19-20 (10%)for a crit threat, 10-20 (55%)for a confirmation. So 1/10 * 11/20=11/200, or 5.5%. So very close to 1/48

Nevermind I did something wrong somewhere in there.

I think the chance of maximum damage is 1 over 4 x 1 over 4 x 1 over 6, which is 1 over 96.

Setra
2009-12-15, 12:26 PM
If I were to deal you the perfect stabbing, I think it's reasonable to assume that one hit would prove fatal to you.
It's also reasonable to assume Saph is a commoner

That would prove fatal to one, yes?

oxybe
2009-12-15, 12:27 PM
huh? a commoner had d4 HP and like, 12 con at best.

that's 5 HP. dagger crit is 2d4, avg 5 damage. i don't see the problem.

oh, you mean critting a hero doesn't kill one? well i guess that commoner should have taken a heroic class if he wanted to kill a heroic PC :smallwink:.

Johel
2009-12-15, 12:29 PM
I just realized that even on a critical hit to the vitals, a dagger cannot kill most level 1 characters. I am not talking about -10 kill, I mean down.
A character has max HP on level 1, they only roll for later levels. A dagger does 1d4 + str.

a str 10 person who stabs someone with a dagger and crits only does 2d4 damage. On a max roll that is 8 damage. Fighters, barbarians, and many others will have more than that with a con10, monks and other d6 characters are likely to have more due to con.

In short, a perfect strike with a dagger to the vitals, dealing a max damage on a crit, cannot even knock unconscious a person, nor can it endanger their life in any way shape or form (you must be at negative HP to be in mortal danger from an injury)

Well, adventurers are just that badass, even at 1st level. They are heroes in the making, after all. :smallamused:

Mind you, it still kills 1st level wizard and sorcerer on critical strike, unless you rolled a 1 for damage.

It also has 50% chance to kill most commoners (2hp) and experts (3hp) without the need for a critical strike, since those don't get max hp at first level. To stab a man twice isn't a unreasonable thing if you want him dead.
You would need lucky damage roll and a critical strike to kill a warrior, though, but their job is to be kicked in the face by drunk commoners so they are used to take punishment.

Now, beware the house cat, indeed, for it's a vicious predator which can maul its victims if given about 1 minute and average attack rolls. :smalltongue:

Sliver
2009-12-15, 12:31 PM
So a commoner can't one shot a PC with his dagger, your point?

If he faces another commoner, and I believe NPCs don't get max HP first level, he has a high chance of downing the fellow commoner with 1 hit from his dagger.

Swok
2009-12-15, 12:34 PM
Also pretty reasonable to assume that that's not the "perfect" knife stab. Unless by perfect you mean it just deals a lot of damage. Which it does, considering you have a useless schmuck wielding the dagger. You're talking about the perfect knife stab possible...by someone who possibly has no training with a dagger...and next to no combat training...and average (read: useless for combat) strength.

Zom B
2009-12-15, 12:35 PM
And a housecat can effectively murder people.

HOORAY D&D

I came to a similar conclusion a while ago, except it involved a cat and a donkey. Given average attack rolls, a cat will kick the snot out of a donkey.

Grumman
2009-12-15, 12:37 PM
If I were to deal you the perfect stabbing with an average lenght kitchen knife, I think it's reasonable to assume that one hit would prove fatal to you.
I'd like to point out that people have been stabbed in the heart, with swords, and still been able to run for it.

Jan Mattys
2009-12-15, 12:39 PM
I'd like to point out that people have been stabbed in the heart, with swords, and still been able to run for it.

That was Connor McCloud, and no, it doesn't count :smallwink:

pffh
2009-12-15, 12:46 PM
I think the chance of maximum damage is 1 over 4 x 1 over 4 x 1 over 6, which is 1 over 96.

If we ignore the confirmation thingamajic on the crit roll it's (1/10)*(1/4)*(1/6) = 1/240 = 0.417% to do max damage

but if we add the confirmation roll and assume that it has 55% chance of confirming then it's (1/240)*(11/20) = 11/4800 = 0.2292% to do max damage

But then again we are assuming the attacker has 10 strength so if we raise the strength score to say 14 then the chance of dropping someone to 0 at level 1 is greatly increased.

Johel
2009-12-15, 12:46 PM
I'd like to point out that people have been stabbed in the heart, with swords, and still been able to run for it.

Yep, but not for long, I bet.
Either they unplug the sword and die quickly...or they don't unplug it and die painfully as the blade cut through flesh and blood vessels until your organs literally bath in your own blood :smallwink:

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 12:49 PM
Take a 1st level fighter with a Str 16 and Con 16. He has 13 hp. Give him a dagger and have him stab his identical twin with the same stats. If he crits and rolls max damage, he will do 14 points, putting the twin into the negatives.

While not very likely, it remains possible. A commoner might not manage it, but I really wouldn't expect him to. The best chance that commoner has is to coup de grace the fighter while he sleeps, provoking a fort save vs. death.

So it's not really that broken. Especially compared to other oddities in the system.

Tackyhillbillu
2009-12-15, 12:51 PM
Yep, but not for long, I bet.
Either they unplug the sword and die quickly...or they don't unplug it and die painfully as the blade cut through flesh and blood vessels until your organs literally bath in your own blood :smallwink:

Or the Cleric casts Cure Light Wounds and makes everything better.

Barbarian MD
2009-12-15, 12:56 PM
Alternatively, one housecat is more than a match for, like, 8-10 standard kobolds in straight up combat. Playtested this with a few friends.

Is this online somewhere? Because I really want to read it.

Nero24200
2009-12-15, 12:57 PM
Well...considering the average you'll get on a D4 is 2.5, for an average of 5 points on a crit, and a typical 1st level commoner will only have 4 hit points, it means a decent strike will put down a regular person.

Fighters, barbarians, rangers and other core classes (I.E people expected to be just a bit tougher than a commoner) then yes, you're right, you can't kill them with one blow.

Even then, that's not a "perfect" attack. An direct, unprotected attack would be a coup de grace, which is dangerous even for PC's.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-15, 12:58 PM
Yeah, 3.5 isn't as noob-hostile as people make it out to be. Even at level one, odds of getting crit to death on a level appropriate encounter are relatively low.

Vizzerdrix
2009-12-15, 01:05 PM
Damage aside, daggers have a lot going for them.

Starscream
2009-12-15, 01:06 PM
I came to a similar conclusion a while ago, except it involved a cat and a donkey. Given average attack rolls, a cat will kick the snot out of a donkey.

I can't speak for donkeys, but I have two fully grown German shepherds in my house who are terrified of my cat when she's in a bad mood.

One of them learned it as a puppy when the cat still had a size advantage, so maybe it just doesn't realize it has gotten bigger since then.

The other however found out the hard way that when kitty has just given birth to a litter of kittens, you do not wander over and poke your nose into their house to see what's going on. Not unless you want a furious blender forcibly removed from your face.

I suppose it's a little like a fighter vs rogue fight. The fighter is bigger, stronger, has more hit points, and will always win in a straight fight. The rogue however only needs to get a couple of shots in when you aren't ready for them.

Grushvak
2009-12-15, 01:13 PM
Regarding the house cat issue, well, I just don't get it. Sure, it gets 3 attacks per round, but only deals 1 damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 14 AC. How is it a threat at all? Please explain this because I often see this argument brought up and I simply don't get it.

Saph
2009-12-15, 01:15 PM
Yes and no.

Yes, what you say is more or less true.

No, because you don't count that we're not talking about average stab, but THE perfect knife stab possible. Max damage AND crit.

If I were to deal you the perfect stabbing with an average lenght kitchen knife, I think it's reasonable to assume that one hit would prove fatal to you.

The thing about D&D hitpoints is that they don't just resemble physical toughness, they also represent the ability to roll with a punch, protect vital areas, and turn a serious wound into a less serious one.

Someone who offers up his throat to a knife is going to be dead in one hit, sure. But in D&D terms, that would be a coup-de-grace. Trying to land a "perfect stab" against a competent opponent who's doing his very best to avoid being stabbed is a different matter.

Nero24200
2009-12-15, 01:20 PM
Regarding the house cat issue, well, I just don't get it. Sure, it gets 3 attacks per round, but only deals 1 damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 14 AC. How is it a threat at all? Please explain this because I often see this argument brought up and I simply don't get it.

It's because at 1st level a commoner has less chance of hitting the cat. It's possible for the cat to "wittle down" the commoner. Though this doesn't take a few things into account, like how at low levels luck plays a heavy role, about how in RL an angry cat fighting at full strength can be pretty vicious, and it doesn't take into account animal mentality (in this case, 99.999% of house cats would flee instantly rather than trying to fight a human).

Grushvak
2009-12-15, 01:24 PM
It's because at 1st level a commoner has less chance of hitting the cat. It's possible for the cat to "wittle down" the commoner. Though this doesn't take a few things into account, like how at low levels luck plays a heavy role, about how in RL an angry cat fighting at full strength can be pretty vicious, and it doesn't take into account animal mentality (in this case, 99.999% of house cats would flee instantly rather than trying to fight a human).

Against a commoner well, sure, the housecat is the clear winner. But it's not over-CR'd by any stretch of the imagination, and PCs should have no problem dealing with Mittens.

oxybe
2009-12-15, 01:27 PM
Regarding the house cat issue, well, I just don't get it. Sure, it gets 3 attacks per round, but only deals 1 damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 14 AC. How is it a threat at all? Please explain this because I often see this argument brought up and I simply don't get it.

because the average commoner had 1d4 HP+1 (being generous with a 12-13 con), or 3 HP
it has a 0 BAB +1 str (being generous with 12-13 str)
it has 10+0 AC (no armor training) +1 (again, generous)

the cat has 1/2d8, or 2hp avg
the cat deals 1 damage with a +4 attack bonus
it has 14 AC

the human has a 40% hit rate or 13-20 on a d20
the cat only needs a 7-20, so a 70% hit rate

the human only needs to give that cat a swift hit to disable it (1dX+1=minimum 2 damage), but the cat will mess up farmer John in a pretty bad way, possibly killing him as John will have one hell of a time hitting fluffy.

quick numbers and i could be wrong, but i give the cat a pretty heavy advantage

Sir.Swindle
2009-12-15, 01:31 PM
On hit points Vitality and Wound point system makes way more sense.
Vitality (what your HP really are)= rolling with it/ superficial injuries
Wound= actual physical damage

On the dagger, why are we assuming the perfect strike is max damage crit. Some one with the skill to strike at a truly vital area (I.E. a rouge/ninja/lurk/ect.). Can deal several times the damage your "perfect strike" deals by hitting a more vital area. I'd consider your "perfect strike" or any non-SA crit to be a good solid body shot at best. NOT a stab into the lung.

Eurus
2009-12-15, 01:36 PM
Regarding the house cat issue, well, I just don't get it. Sure, it gets 3 attacks per round, but only deals 1 damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 14 AC. How is it a threat at all? Please explain this because I often see this argument brought up and I simply don't get it.

Another issue is that the cat can hide pretty well. It'll probably get the jump on the commoner, if it wants to.

This, of course, conjures to mind the amusing image of feral housecats prowling the streets of the city, lying in wait in alleys, hunting and killing humans for food.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-15, 01:39 PM
Yeah, 3.5 isn't as noob-hostile as people make it out to be. Even at level one, odds of getting crit to death on a level appropriate encounter are relatively low.

Assuming your opposition consists of 10 strength dagger users.

Johel
2009-12-15, 01:54 PM
Regarding the house cat issue, well, I just don't get it. Sure, it gets 3 attacks per round, but only deals 1 damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 14 AC. How is it a threat at all? Please explain this because I often see this argument brought up and I simply don't get it.

A human commoner with average stats has 1 attack per round at +0 BA, deals 1d3 non-lethal damage per hit, has 2 hit points and 10 AC.

A cat has 2 attacks at +4 BA, 1 attack at -2 BA, all of which deals 1 lethal damage per hit. It too has 2 hit points but 14 AC.

The cat has 75% chance to hit with claw n°1, 75% chance to hit with claw n°2, 45% chance to hit with bite.

75% x 75% x 45% = 25,3125% to inflict 3 damage

75% x 75% x 55% = 30,9375% to inflict 2 damage
75% x 25% x 45% = 8,4375%
25% x 75% x 45% = 8,4375%

75% x 25% x 55% = 10,3125% to inflict 1 damage
25% x 75% x 55% = 10,3125%
25% x 25% x 45% = 2,8125%

25% x 25% x 55% = 3,4375% to inflict 0 damage

The commoner only has 35% to hit with his punch.
With a dagger, he can inflict 1d4 damage
8,75 % to inflict 4 damage
8.75 % to inflict 3 damage
8.75 % to inflict 2 damage
8.75 % to inflict 1 damage
65% to inflict 0 damage

Since 2 damage is enough to kill :
73% chances for the cat to kill the commoner in 1 round.
26,25% chances for the commoner to kill the cat in 1 round.

The critical strike advantage slightly the commoner but since the cat has a better initiative, it's likely to attack first and to kill the commoner 3 out of 4 time.

Now, if you want CR-equivalent, let's take a group of 4 cats (EL1) and a 1st level fighter, Str18, Con 14, Studden Leather for AC 13, 12 hp.
The fighter will only have a single attack per round and be able to touch a cat 55% of the time only. This means that, with average rolls, he'll need 7 to 8 rounds to kill the little devils. :smallamused:
The cats hit the fighter with their claws 55% of the time. They got 8 claw attacks per round. That's about 4 damage a round, then.
It take them 3, let's even make it 4 rounds to maul the fighter.
And that's not using their bites. :smallamused:

Telonius
2009-12-15, 01:57 PM
Besides, cats have confidence.

http://dennisjudd.com/albums/funpics/confidence.sized.jpg

Hurlbut
2009-12-15, 02:00 PM
Man, that poster just made the day.
http://www.eeriecuties.com/d/20091118.html following the "scary cat" theme

Cybren
2009-12-15, 02:11 PM
It's also reasonable to assume Saph is a commoner

That would prove fatal to one, yes?

no, the game is an abstraction. People do not have will saves, strength scores, or class levels (be they PC or NPC levels)

Barbarian MD
2009-12-15, 02:12 PM
Is... Is that a bear?

Ernir
2009-12-15, 02:18 PM
Is... Is that a bear?

I believe so.

I also seem to recall a video of an event like this (or maybe the same event) circling the internet a few months ago.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 02:36 PM
Fun fact: In D&D, the damage done by an attack basically reflects how likely the attack would have been to kill or incapacitate the person in real life.

You lose 10% of your hitpoints from something that would actually kill you 10% of the time.

The reason we don't just roll percentile dice to see whether or not the hit kills you is because in a game with a lot of combat, an unlucky dice roll makes for a lot less fun - either you end up with an anticlimactic battle, or you end up with a major hero being killed by a paper cut.

So instead, we come up with a system which is more like, in mathematical terms, estimating the probability of the attack killing someone, and treating the victim as having been 'killed' that many times. We then assume that people die when they are killed.

I don't see a problem with a dagger not having any chance to kill the majority of level 1 PCs.

Johel
2009-12-15, 03:09 PM
We then assume that people die when they are killed.

Can't argue with that logic.
:smallwink:

Myrmex
2009-12-15, 03:21 PM
Don't forget the commoner's unarmed attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.

Personally, I would go for the grapple.

Grommen
2009-12-15, 03:24 PM
Your also taking a weapon who's base damage has not changed since conception of the game, and applying to Hit Points that have changed. Most notably max hit points at 1st level. Secondly you needed, I believe, at least a 14 con to gain an extra hit points in 1st and 2nd edition, and none but the fighter class got more than +2 hit points per level max.

Wile it does not seem realistic at times I think it's a necessary evil in the combat system. I've never had any trouble killing 1st level characters, and quite often they die all to frequent at even higher levels. We have adopted a max HP till 4th level kinda thing. Honestly it works out because I've noticed that a lot of my players have slightly better than average hit points most of the time.

Now what really sucks is when you crit with a bigger weapon and manage to roll "1's". Bigger weapon....same damage as a dagger, and it was a crit. That is when you know that lady luck is messing with you.

O and I really need this cat. can you take it as a familiar as well?

Boci
2009-12-15, 03:29 PM
Don't forget the commoner's unarmed attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.

Irrelevant. Cats don't have a natural reach so they cannot take AoO.

Sleepingbear
2009-12-15, 03:35 PM
Besides, cats have confidence.

http://dennisjudd.com/albums/funpics/confidence.sized.jpg

How embarrassing. Everytime I think I've lived that down...

jiriku
2009-12-15, 03:49 PM
Just to debunk the commoner/cat fallacy, I'd like to mention that I had an altercation this morning with my housecat wanting to exit the home and myself wanting to keep her inside. My right arm is heavily bandaged at this time, so I can verify that the housecat does indeed have the upper hand (or paw, as it were) in a straight-up duel with a commoner. However, I have confirmed that the housecat is no match for the commoner's grapple check! A commoner can defeat any level-appropriate housecat by grappling, provided he can survive the attack of opportunity (and yes, she did get attack of opportunity against me).

erikun
2009-12-15, 03:51 PM
I just realized that even on a critical hit to the vitals, a dagger cannot kill most level 1 characters. I am not talking about -10 kill, I mean down.
Welcome to 3rd edition.

I mean, really. Back when we played REAL Dungeons & Dragons, the dangers were real. Kobolds were fatal. Housecats terrorized neighborhoods. When you started at level 1, you had less than 10% chance to make it to level 2 alive.

But now, everything is made easy for new people. Negative hit points. Point buy stats. Bonus spells for high Intelligence. Heal checks. It's like a freaking video game! Heck, when you do get raised, you don't even need to make a System Shock check to see if you survived it!

Madness, I tell you.

Zovc
2009-12-15, 04:01 PM
I'd like to point out that being at 0 HP is not dead.

Edit: Nevermind. You can get a character to 0 HP reasonably, but to do 14+ damage is somewhat farfetched. A rogue could do it on a maxed out critical sneak attack.

Lapak
2009-12-15, 04:06 PM
Just to debunk the commoner/cat fallacy, I'd like to mention that I had an altercation this morning with my housecat wanting to exit the home and myself wanting to keep her inside. My right arm is heavily bandaged at this time, so I can verify that the housecat does indeed have the upper hand (or paw, as it were) in a straight-up duel with a commoner. However, I have confirmed that the housecat is no match for the commoner's grapple check! A commoner can defeat any level-appropriate housecat by grappling, provided he can survive the attack of opportunity (and yes, she did get attack of opportunity against me).This post is both hilarious and true.

Zovc
2009-12-15, 04:10 PM
Just to debunk the commoner/cat fallacy, I'd like to mention that I had an altercation this morning with my housecat wanting to exit the home and myself wanting to keep her inside. My right arm is heavily bandaged at this time, so I can verify that the housecat does indeed have the upper hand (or paw, as it were) in a straight-up duel with a commoner. However, I have confirmed that the housecat is no match for the commoner's grapple check! A commoner can defeat any level-appropriate housecat by grappling, provided he can survive the attack of opportunity (and yes, she did get attack of opportunity against me).

I have similar combat experiences with a housecat.

Without a doubt, I was always the winrar of the grapple checks, but the cat was challenging me with its escape artist checks. Eventually it did one or two points of subdual damage in the grapple--at that point I dropped it and it retreated.

I say subdual damage because--while it did claw the hell out of my arm--I didn't bleed very much at all, and I didn't really feel like I was any closer to death after the encounter.

I still think I deserved my experience reward, simply for surviving. So what if I'm an expert, that was still dangerous!

I haven't seen said cat since, but I have another friend whose cat absolutely despises me. I often 'spar' with it, it doesn't get that I'm playing like a dog would, so it often attempts to coupe de grace me while I'm sleeping.

When I say spar, I'll usually just feint a lot, then grab the cat when it fails its sense motive check (I must be breaking action economy somehow, because there's no way I have improved feint). When I say 'attempts to coupe de grace me,' the cat has pounced on me numerous times while I was sleeping on the couch--I always wake up and start combat flat footed (and prone) instead of dying, though.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 04:15 PM
Irrelevant. Cats don't have a natural reach so they cannot take AoO.

BS. You can make an attack of opportunity into any square you could make an armed melee attack into. Natural weapons are considered armed for these purposes, and a cat can make melee attacks into its own square.

The cat's 0ft reach actually means that the commoner will win provided he is armed. There are a few assumptions made about tactics, but the numbers work.

Here's how it plays out:

Both parties start 70ft. apart. There is no surprise round.
Cat wins initiative. It provokes an attack of opportunity from the commoner. Five times in eighteen, the cat doesn't survive its own turn.
If still alive, the cat gets one attack. It has a 75% chance of hitting and no chance of taking out the commoner.
Commoner withdraws.
The cat attacks again, provoking another attack of opportunity. This eliminates it five times in eighteen. It has a marginally better than even chance of having a chance to kill the commoner.
There is a better than even chance that the commoner survives into the third round, and a better-than-even chance that he wins during the cat's turn in the third round.


The cat might be astonishinly dangerous, but it isn't quite the menace to humanity that some people believe.

Although it is amusing that an unarmed commoner has literally no chance.

oxybe
2009-12-15, 04:22 PM
But now, everything is made easy for new people. Negative hit points. Point buy stats. Bonus spells for high Intelligence. Heal checks. It's like a freaking video game! Heck, when you do get raised, you don't even need to make a System Shock check to see if you survived it!

Madness, I tell you.

in 3rd ed's defense, negative HP was introduced as an optional rule in 2nd ed.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-15, 04:22 PM
BS. You can make an attack of opportunity into any square you could make an armed melee attack into. Natural weapons are considered armed for these purposes, and a cat can make melee attacks into its own square.

5' step out of square, initiate grapple. Where's your AoO now?

RS14
2009-12-15, 04:24 PM
I have similar combat experiences with a housecat.

Without a doubt, I was always the winrar of the grapple checks, but the cat was challenging me with its escape artist checks. Eventually it did one or two points of subdual damage in the grapple--at that point I dropped it and it retreated.

I say subdual damage because--while it did claw the hell out of my arm--I didn't bleed very much at all, and I didn't really feel like I was any closer to death after the encounter.

I still think I deserved my experience reward, simply for surviving. So what if I'm an expert, that was still dangerous!

I haven't seen said cat since, but I have another friend whose cat absolutely despises me. I often 'spar' with it, it doesn't get that I'm playing like a dog would, so it often attempts to coupe de grace me while I'm sleeping.

When I say spar, I'll usually just feint a lot, then grab the cat when it fails its sense motive check (I must be breaking action economy somehow, because there's no way I have improved feint). When I say 'attempts to coupe de grace me,' the cat has pounced on me numerous times while I was sleeping on the couch--I always wake up and start combat flat footed (and prone) instead of dying, though.

On the other hand, you're probably trying not to injure your cat. In D&D terms, it is more like grappling without dealing damage, rather than just beating your cat to death.

Will someone please remind me how cats beat commoners? The commoner charges, grapples (Cats are tiny, and do not threaten square, so do not receive an AoO survives the AoO), and has a decent chance of hitting. Cat deals at most 2 points of damage on a crit in the grapple. Commoner pins, kills in at most two rounds of dealing unarmed damage.

Or suppose the commoner misses and is exposed to a full attack. The cat probably fails to drop the commoner, who then gets another grapple attempt, and probably still survives the second round of damage. It looks like the odds are at least decent, even in this case, of the commoner grappling and pinning to achieve victory.

Oh, missed this:


BS. You can make an attack of opportunity into any square you could make an armed melee attack into. Natural weapons are considered armed for these purposes, and a cat can make melee attacks into its own square.

The cat's 0ft reach actually means that the commoner will win provided he is armed. There are a few assumptions made about tactics, and I think there might also be a rules technicality or two as well, but the numbers work.

No--I can't find anything to say that an unarmed attack threatens any less range. The commoner attacks from 5ft, and is immune to the AoO he would otherwise provoke.

Well, I'm stupid and found it shortly after posting. I never realized that.

Wait, if you "don't threaten any squares," how can you make an attack at all while unarmed?

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 04:45 PM
Wait, if you "don't threaten any squares," how can you make an attack at all while unarmed?

You threaten the same area armed as unarmed, but you cannot make attacks of opportunity unless you are armed.

I was overly harsh on Boci - the commoner probably would make his attacks from outside the cat's threatened area, but the cat's 0ft reach doesn't preclude it from making them (which is what I assumed he meant).


5' step out of square, initiate grapple. Where's your AoO now?

Nowhere. See the post I quoted.

Boci
2009-12-15, 04:49 PM
You threaten the same area armed as unarmed, but you cannot make attacks of opportunity unless you are armed.

I'm pretty sure you do not threatan unarmed. The distinction is rarely important, but it can come up.


I was overly harsh on Boci - the commoner probably would make his attacks from outside the cat's threatened area, but the cat's 0ft reach doesn't preclude it from making them (which is what I assumed he meant).

I meant the commoner would just take a 5ft step and then attack.

Artanis
2009-12-15, 04:54 PM
[LIST=1] Both parties start 30ft. apart. There is no surprise round.

Isn't stealth supposed to be one of the things making cats so deadly? :smallconfused:

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 04:58 PM
I'm pretty sure you do not threatan unarmed. The distinction is rarely important, but it can come up.

I'm pretty sure it's just "you do not get attacks of opportunity". Otherwise, two unarmed characters facing off are never in melee. It creates weird results.


I meant the commoner would just take a 5ft step and then attack.

In that case, you're right. You could have been a lot clearer though.


Isn't stealth supposed to be one of the things making cats so deadly?

That is also true. The fact that the commoner needs a massive stick in order to have a better-than-even chance of surviving a housecat attack is already bad enough, however.

Note: they'd actually have to start further apart. The commoner would be much worse off at 30ft because of the flat-footed rules.

Boci
2009-12-15, 05:12 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just "you do not get attacks of opportunity". Otherwise, two unarmed characters facing off are never in melee. It creates weird results.

From the SRD:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.



In that case, you're right. You could have been a lot clearer though.

Yeah sorry.


That is also true. The fact that the commoner needs a massive stick in order to have a better-than-even chance of surviving a housecat attack is already bad enough, however.

Also, isn't there still a 1 in 10 chance the cat will win against an armed commoner?

jiriku
2009-12-15, 05:15 PM
Hmm, true that cat lacks reach. I suppose what mine was doing then was technically attacking with a natural weapon at -4 in a grapple. Sadly for me, the -4 penalty did not protect me from injury. I can confirm that housecats receive full attacks, as she delivered four nasty gashes and two small gouges in less than one round.

The cat WAS pretty handy with the Escape Artist checks. My wife had to join the grapple before we were able to pin the cat and then move the grapple back indoors. Fortunately, we dealt some subdual damage to the cat's pride, as once we threw her inside, she elected to retreat in a huff and wash herself rather than making another escape attempt.

Zovc
2009-12-15, 05:21 PM
Hmm, true that cat lacks reach. I suppose what mine was doing then was technically attacking with a natural weapon at -4 in a grapple. Sadly for me, the -4 penalty did not protect me from injury. I can confirm that housecats receive full attacks, as she delivered four nasty gashes and two small gouges in less than one round.

Yeah, kitty cats can easily make more than six attacks in six seconds.

tyckspoon
2009-12-15, 05:21 PM
I'm pretty sure it's just "you do not get attacks of opportunity". Otherwise, two unarmed characters facing off are never in melee. It creates weird results.


The ability to attack a square doesn't depend on threatening it- it's the other way around. The fact that you can attack to that square allows you also threaten the square. Being unarmed only removes the threatening.

erikun
2009-12-15, 05:31 PM
Starting a grapple provokes an AoO. If the AoO deals damage (any damage, even 1 point) the grapple fails. See here, Step 1. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple)

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 05:37 PM
From the SRD:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity.

That is definitely a typo. See my post for an explanation, but it leads to utterly idiotic results. You're right though. RAW says that unarmed characters don't threaten squares.

Fun fact: there is no penalty for firing into a punch-up, even if you don't want to hit one or more of the participants.


Yeah sorry.

It's cool.




Also, isn't there still a 1 in 10 chance the cat will win against an armed commoner?

It's closer to 1 in 4, and that applies within two rounds, in conditions which are actually extremely advantageous to the commoner (if the cat wins initiative at 60ft, assuming no surprise round, then the commoner is toast. With a surprise round, the cat can start 90ft away...)


Note that the commoner's build is relevant - an armed commoner will be safe from marauding housecats with Toughness, has a decent chance of being safe with Improved Initiative, and might also be safe with IUS.

I'm actually pretty sure that most commoners would be built with Toughness as a bonus feat - it was originally assumed that wizards would take it, and commoners have even fewer hp.

NEO|Phyte
2009-12-15, 05:42 PM
That is definitely a typo. See my post for an explanation, but it leads to utterly idiotic results. You're right though. RAW says that unarmed characters don't threaten squares.

Fun fact: there is no penalty for firing into a punch-up, even if you don't want to hit one or more of the participants.
To be fair, the whole armed/unarmed crap is better defined elsewhere in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack).

Unarmed Attacks

[unimportant junk here]

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see "Armed" Unarmed Attacks, below).

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks

Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Boci
2009-12-15, 05:46 PM
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

So a wizard you has cast a 1 target/level touch spell can for a while use it for attacks of opertunity? Cool.

lesser_minion
2009-12-15, 05:47 PM
To be fair, the whole armed/unarmed crap is better defined elsewhere in the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#attack).

Nice catch.

It doesn't really help against the fool who decided to write that characters who do not count as armed do not threaten an area, however.

The reason this is an issue, by the way, is that being in melee is defined in terms of threatening each other. So two unarmed characters within 5ft of each other who absolutely hate each other's guts are never in melee.


Basically, any time "threatens" and "can make melee attacks into" are different, you can pull out bizarre and nonsensical results.

shadow_archmagi
2009-12-15, 07:29 PM
the whole armed/unarmed carp[/URL].

Dwarf fortress flashback.

Carp are FAR deadlier than housecats.

Leon
2009-12-15, 08:00 PM
Alternatively, one housecat is more than a match for, like, 8-10 standard kobolds in straight up combat.

Maybe in a straight up combat - but anything is going to beat them up in straight up combat, not if they play from the position that they should be.

AdamSmasher
2009-12-15, 09:50 PM
I came to a similar conclusion a while ago, except it involved a cat and a donkey. Given average attack rolls, a cat will kick the snot out of a donkey.
I'm going to have to call BS on this one. The donkey, given the cats 14 AC, the donkey's +1 attack modifier, and the donkey's 1d2 damage dice, will deal an average of .6 damage per round to the cat. Therefore, it takes a donkey an average of five rounds to kill a cat. A cat, on the other hand, deals an average of 1.5 damage to the donkey per round with a full attack. That means the cat needs an average of 8 rounds to kill the donkey, with all Full Attacks.

The donkey can, on the other hand, keep backing away from the cat. That will provoke an AoO, but reduce the cat's damage per round to 1.3 because it has to charge instead of Full Attack. On the other hand, the cat will have to keep provoking AoOs to get back in to attacking range (0 reach), increasing the donkey's damage per round to 1.2. Now, the donkey can kill the cat in two rounds, while the cat can't kill the donkey for nine rounds.

Rainbownaga
2009-12-15, 10:29 PM
Edit: Misread :(

taltamir
2009-12-16, 01:10 AM
Why are you assuming 10 str, but giving others more than con 10?

Also, people with a class level tend to be better than normal people, yes?

actually I was giving the defender equal con as the attackers str. Str scales better in this example because it doubles on a crit. Although in the long term, con scales better because it multiplies by HD, so as you level con becomes more and more important.
fighter is a D10, it stars with 10HP +con. ergo, 10HP.


Well, that's kind of how it is in real life. One stab from a dagger is typically not going to kill someone unless the knifeman catches his victim in a position where they're helpless.

People killed in knife fights (as opposed to assassinations) don't generally die from one stab wound, they die from lots and lots of stab wounds.

I have to completely disagree. A dagger stab wound is usually deadly unless treated (just from the infection).
Now, you can get a "scratch" so to speak you can be ok... but a hit to the vital organs (which is explicitly what a crit is), is even more deadly than a mere stab and should kill you fast.

Dervag
2009-12-16, 01:24 AM
Yes and no.

Yes, what you say is more or less true.

No, because you don't count that we're not talking about average stab, but THE perfect knife stab possible. Max damage AND crit.No, the perfect stab is a coup de grace. This is the perfect stab that it is practical to deliver against an active opponent in combat. Unless you add sneak attack dice, of course, in which case it's the perfect backstab... but at that point you're talking about d4+d6 damage at a minimum, and 6 points really is enough to kill the average commoner or expert. Which is most of the population.


That was Connor McCloud, and no, it doesn't count :smallwink:Ah, no. Paramedics have seen cases like this: someone with a knife wound to the neck or head who still remain active, and in some cases actively try to run away from the paramedics (possibly because they're afraid of getting convicted for a crime). Stupid? Yes. Fatal? Yes. Instantly fatal? No.

That's the thing: about the only way to instantly incapacitate a human being in less than six seconds (one round of attacks) is to sever the spinal cord or otherwise disrupt the nervous system. That is not easy to do with a knife.


5' step out of square, initiate grapple. Where's your AoO now?In a grappling match, isn't the cat at a ludicrous disadvantage due to its lesser size and strength?


I'm going to have to call BS on this one. The donkey, given the cats 14 AC, the donkey's +1 attack modifier, and the donkey's 1d2 damage dice, will deal an average of .6 damage per round to the cat. Therefore, it takes a donkey an average of five rounds to kill a cat. A cat, on the other hand, deals an average of 1.5 damage to the donkey per round with a full attack. That means the cat needs an average of 8 rounds to kill the donkey, with all Full Attacks.Why does a donkey do d2+1 damage? Getting kicked by a donkey really can kill you... though I suspect that on average it's less lethal than being stabbed with a knife. Somewhat.

Geddoe
2009-12-16, 01:42 AM
Both parties start 70ft. apart. There is no surprise round.
Cat wins initiative. It provokes an attack of opportunity from the commoner. Five times in eighteen, the cat doesn't survive its own turn.
If still alive, the cat gets one attack. It has a 75% chance of hitting and no chance of taking out the commoner.
Commoner withdraws.
The cat attacks again, provoking another attack of opportunity. This eliminates it five times in eighteen. It has a marginally better than even chance of having a chance to kill the commoner.
There is a better than even chance that the commoner survives into the third round, and a better-than-even chance that he wins during the cat's turn in the third round.


The cat takes no attack of opportunity the first time. Because the cat won initiative, the commoner is flatfooted and can't make AoO's.

Deepblue706
2009-12-16, 01:49 AM
A dagger can kill just about anyone (that is, people, and of the variety that are not immune to uh...daggers), I believe, if you're rolling a Profession: Executioner check (BoVD I think).

Although I'm pretty sure that's purely noncombative.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 02:26 AM
A dagger can kill just about anyone (that is, people, and of the variety that are not immune to uh...daggers), I believe, if you're rolling a Profession: Executioner check (BoVD I think).

Although I'm pretty sure that's purely noncombative.

anyone that is helpless, yes. Anyone in combat? no.

Krazddndfreek
2009-12-16, 02:39 AM
If someone mentioned this already, I apologize.

Look at it this way. Commoners (who have d4 hd) and other NPC classes are not heroic, thus, they only get average hp for their level. Average hp for the average human commoner is 2.5, rounded down is 2. A regular knife attack from a similar human Commoner will fell him. A crit will put him closer to death, of course, but neither will kill him immediately, but he'll be dead within a few moments. I think this is a fairly accurate depiction. Adventurers are just crazy strong people who are way above the norm, because they have PC classes, and they are Heroic.

Hope this helps.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 02:42 AM
I was not aware that NPC's do NOT get full HP on first level...

Although, it doesn't change my original observation that most first level PC classes (fighter, barbarian, monk, etc) cannot be mortally wounded with a single strike a knife wielding commoner during combat. It does help to look at the other side and see that a good stab to the gut will fell the average commoner at least. I guess they are just "that heroic", even in level 1...

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-16, 02:52 AM
I was not aware that NPC's do NOT get full HP on first level...

Although, it doesn't change my original observation that most first level PC classes (fighter, barbarian, monk, etc) cannot be mortally wounded with a single strike a knife wielding commoner during combat. It does help to look at the other side and see that a good stab to the gut will fell the average commoner at least. I guess they are just "that heroic", even in level 1...Keep in mind that they can be killed by someone specialized in using that weapon at 1, just not by someone useless with it. Heck, many Halfling Rogues can take out non-martial characters without a crit using thrown daggers. (d8+2(con) HP vs 2d6(sub level SA)+d4 damage).

sonofzeal
2009-12-16, 03:41 AM
Just for fun, crunching the numbers on Commoner vs Housecat....


...

.......
.................................................. ...........

...



A lot depends on what the Commoner picks as his weapon.

d4: 39.4% victory
d6: 42.5% victory
d8: 44.1% victory

If he can get a single extra point of damage somewhere, all three become:
dX+1: 48.9%

But he shouldn't try using an improvised 2dX weapon, or his chance drops to:
dX+1, -4 atk: 23.3%




Now, let's look at the potential benefit of four feats - Dodge, Weapon Focus, Improved Initiative, and Toughness.

d8, dodge: 46.8%
d8, weapon focus: 49.1%
d8, improved initiative: 48.2%
d8, toughness: 66.6%


A human commoner who takes Weapon Focus and Toughness as his two feats, uses a morningstar, and has leather armor (so no ACP):
d8, twinky mcblingbling: 77.8%

A human commoner who takes Weapon Focus and Toughness as his two feats, uses a morningstar, takes two flaws (murky-eyed and pathetic charisma) for shield proficiency and light armor proficiency:
d8, omghax: 89.6%

Truely, he is a giant among men.



Update: Okay, I can't seem to do any better as a core-only human commoner with all 10's. A Half-Orc commoner gets 92.3%, and a full orc commoner gets 94.7%. A human commoner with the non-elite array can get 96.6% (boosting Con gets a better performance than boosting Dex, but getting the 1 extra damage from Str is key). With the Elite array, that's all of 99.3% (Con gets a +2, no significant difference between whether Str or Dex gets the other one at the level of rigor I'm testing at). The elite orc commoner gets 99.8%.

Kaiyanwang
2009-12-16, 05:05 AM
Well, that's kind of how it is in real life. One stab from a dagger is typically not going to kill someone unless the knifeman catches his victim in a position where they're helpless.

People killed in knife fights (as opposed to assassinations) don't generally die from one stab wound, they die from lots and lots of stab wounds.

Definitively this. And the sneak attacking rogue in not an accident. You expect froma rogue to strike deadly where other people only cause scratches.

Moreover, if you use autokill rules on 20, 20, hit, you can kill someone with a spoon.

Saph
2009-12-16, 09:20 AM
I have to completely disagree. A dagger stab wound is usually deadly unless treated (just from the infection).

With modern medicine, not at all. With D&D-level medicine, also not at all, assuming the presence of a caster or someone with high Heal. With Dark Ages/Iron Age medicine, definitely - but that's not going to kill you instantly.


Now, you can get a "scratch" so to speak you can be ok... but a hit to the vital organs (which is explicitly what a crit is), is even more deadly than a mere stab and should kill you fast.

Who says that a crit means a hit to the vital organs? It just means a more dangerous hit than usual.

A crit from a dagger will fatally wound a commoner. A crit from a dagger will hurt a 1st-level fighter but won't kill him, because a fighter is trained to protect vital areas and turn a deadly blow into only a serious one. This is actually one area where D&D matches real life pretty well.

Grommen
2009-12-16, 10:17 AM
Don't forget the commoner's unarmed attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.

Personally, I would go for the grapple.

Trust me...You don't want to grapple a tabby (looks at his right hand and the holes in it). Bit clean through my friend, then started shaking like a bloody shark. Most pain ever! That little 10 pound cat ripped tendons, flesh, and bone. He was not taking a bath! Never grapple with a wet, angry , and frightened creature.

taltamir
2009-12-16, 11:46 AM
PHB 50:

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment (see page 152) or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

PHB153-154:

HELPLESS DEFENDERS
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.
Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents because it involves focused concentration and methodical action on the part of the attacker. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits, such as a golem. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).